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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sat Apr 10, 2010 12:14 pm  
    Creator god of Oerth

    Does any one knows who is the creator god of Oerth? Or do you hane any information?
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    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sat Apr 10, 2010 8:09 pm  

    The Canonfire! & GreyTalk Help and Feedback forum is for issues related to the website or the GREYtalk mailing group, not to Greyhawk in general. The correct forum for this question would be the World of Greyhawk Discussion forum.

    As to your question, it depends on who you ask. There is more than one cultural pantheon in Greyhawk, and each one has its own creation myth. Most people will recognize one particular deity though, that being the Flan goddess Beory, also know as The Oerth Mother.
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    GreySage

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    Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:24 am  

    Lendor is the Suel creator god. The dwarves believe the world was forged by their god, Moradin. The Oeridian pantheon has a lot of holes in it, with the older generation who birthed the present gods being vague or missing. The most potent Baklunish deity is Istus, weaver of fate, who would make an admirable creator. The dragons believe their god Io created the potential for all things, while the giants believe all worlds were created by their god Annam.

    Since Beory personifies the world, she probably didn't create the world as such, though there have been attempts at presenting her as a universal mother goddess giving birth to all the gods of every pantheon.
    Chatdemon posted a Beory-centric creation myth here.

    I think the Suel, at least, probably didn't recognize the gods of other pantheons until after they mingled with other peoples during the Great Migrations, if only because their gods tend to serve the same roles as gods in other pantheons (Wee Jas replaces Boccob and Nerull, Phaulkon replaces Velnius, Phyton replaces Ehlonna, Jascar replaces Ulaa, Xerbo replaces Procan and Zilchus, and so on). So they, at least, would probably not have believed in any creator other than Lendor. I think the Baklunish would probably not have acknowledged Beory as older than Istus, either.

    The 3rd edition book Elder Evils included a creator god called Atropus, linked to Greyhawk through a reference to Acererak. In that possibly spurious myth, Atropus created all the other gods by sacrificing its own life, thereby becoming an undead flying moon dedicated to destroying all it had created.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    From: Mt. Smolderac

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    Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:35 am  

    As far as the creation of Oerth, it's never really talked about specifically in previous editions. At least as far as I know. The earliest chronological mention of it that I'm aware of is its role as a battleground in the war between Law and Chaos on the Plains of Pesh. 4th edition says that elemental beings called Primordials, possibly identifiable with the the Lords of the Elder Elements mentioned in 3rd edition, created the world out of the raw materials of the Elemental Chaos (kind of a single plane combining the Inner Planes of previous editions). The gods looked down on the world and decided to give it more form and order. This provoked a war between the two groups. The Primordials lost and most that survived were imprisoned. It looks like the Primordials were based on the Titans and Giants of Greek and Norse myths.
    So to answer you question, as far as 4th edition goes, the world was created by the Primordials and the Gods, though not really by working together.
    You might want to also check out this article - http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Age_Before_Ages in the GH wiki.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:47 am  

    Thank you very much...:)
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    Mad Archmage of the Oerth Journal

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    Mon Apr 12, 2010 1:01 pm  

    Amongst the primordial gods of Oerth, I would elect the following.

    Tharizdun, god of darkness
    Procan, god of the oceans, seas, and waters
    Pelor, god of the sun/ light
    Beory, goddess of earth and land
    Istus, goddess of fate
    Boccob, god of the arcane
    Nerull, god of death
    Lendor, god of time and history

    Among humanoid type races I would add Gruumsh, Io, Corellon Larethian, Lloth, Garl Glittergold, Yondalla, and Moradin.
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Mon Apr 12, 2010 2:07 pm  

    Don't dare spelling it Lloth HERE again :)

    (j/k)
    (well... not too much)
    Site Theocrat

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    Mon Apr 12, 2010 2:32 pm  
    There is only ONE TRUE PATH

    Hi all -
    You all seem to be missing something. Pholtus is the only One True Path. Thus all other gods are figments of his imagination. Thus, although he has created Lendor to be the Suel Great God, it is/was Pholtus who created Lendor. Beory is pretty much in the same boat.
    Yeah, those puny humans, olves, dwur and hobniz/noniz fellows may have others, they all are directly related to Pholtus.
    In All Cases, it's best to let the Crazy Theocrat keep his delusions of grandeur.

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    Theocrat Issak
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    Theocrat Issak
    Mad Archmage of the Oerth Journal

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    Mon Apr 12, 2010 2:32 pm  

    Lloth, spider queen of envious spelling...

    =P Razz
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    -Rick "Duicarthan" Miller
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    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Tue Apr 13, 2010 6:09 pm  

    My own preference would be that the current gods are only the most recent generation, similar to Greek myth (where the Olympians are the grandchildren and great-grandchildren of the original primal gods), Norse myth (where the creator gods Odin, Vili, and Ve have a named father and grandfather), or Babylonian myth (where the great god Anu is the great-grandson of the primal gods Apsu and Tiamat). So maybe Boccob is the third god of magic, Lendor the third god of time, Pelor the fourth god of the sun to exist since time began. I've invented names for elder gods at various times, but their exact identities is less important to me than having them exist. I just like the feeling of great antiquity you get from vanished generations of elder gods, though of course there are many uses for elder gods in the game (forgotten temples, ancient races seeking to bring back their lost patron, and present gods nervously trying to prevent the birth of their own successors - unlike Tharizdun, not all elder gods are necessarily evil, or in the wrong).

    I could see Beory as forming from raw Chaos, Gaea-like. I really like the 4th edition Dawn War between the gods and primordials, and I've been trying to incorporate it into most of the myths I write lately. I don't see it as "true history" (I tend to lean toward the idea seen in James Jacobs' 3rd edition writings and elsewhere that the gods are much younger than the world, only coming into being after the birth of the first mortal races, and long after ancient races like the obyriths and Wind Dukes), but it makes for interesting mythology. Beory might be considered a renegade primordial, or a being created by the primordials but invested with spirit by the gods.

    If you go back to the time of creation, nonhuman creator gods like Corellon Larethian and Moradin are all essentially the same. Since presumedly there were no elves or dwarves before the world was created, the core area of influence of them all is simply creation, the primal spark of pure creativity, the desire to shape the raw stuff of creation into something permanent and lasting. Different races see this being in different ways - elves see it as an idealized elf, dwarves as a dwarf, giants as a giant, humans as a human - but I'm not sure they're really different beings, unless they came to exist long after the world was actually made.

    I wrote some myths, some of them from a Pholtus-centric perspective, in this thread.

    More thoughts on elder gods here.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:51 am  

    So, you suggest Pholtus as the creator of Oerth. Or someone other that he is uknown to the people?
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    GreySage

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    Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:45 am  

    altarion wrote:
    So, you suggest Pholtus as the creator of Oerth. Or someone other that he is unknown to the people?


    No, no, no. I suggested worshipers of Pholtus, since they revere no other gods, might see Pholtus as a creator figure. I don't think anyone other than hard-core Pholtus-fans would believe that. He's only an intermediate god (lesser god in 1e), after all.

    Basically, I think different people would credit different gods as the creator. Lendor, Istus, Boccob, Beory, Rao, Moradin, Annam, Pholtus - it depends on who you ask. And none of them are right.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:01 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    altarion wrote:
    So, you suggest Pholtus as the creator of Oerth. Or someone other that he is unknown to the people?


    No, no, no. I suggested worshipers of Pholtus, since they revere no other gods, might see Pholtus as a creator figure. I don't think anyone other than hard-core Pholtus-fans would believe that. He's only an intermediate god (lesser god in 1e), after all.

    Basically, I think different people would credit different gods as the creator. Lendor, Istus, Boccob, Beory, Rao, Moradin, Annam, Pholtus - it depends on who you ask. And none of them are right.



    I see the point of view.
    I think there exist an unknown god of creaton but none know something for him. The order of watchers (the knights of the watch) has the knowledge but they does not share with the others. Any sugestion?
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:46 am  
    What I think

    I agree with Rasgon that this is only the current generation of gods. I had made references to the Gods of Pegana being the previous generation in my last campaign.

    What, though, of Basiliv, the Mage of the Valley, called a demiurge in the Gord the Rogue books. Are the Lords of Balance older than the gods and responsible for creating Oerth?

    Also, metafictionally, it would make sense to say Zagyg created Oerth. Casting himself in the role of a lowly demigod in his own universe being the ultimate joke.

    ~Scott "-enkainen" Casper

    Yak-Men put a little basiliv on their salads...
    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm  
    Oerth and Greyhawk

    I think metagme joke Gary is making extends to Greyhawk which is the name of the setting.

    According to the WoG comic, it's Beory:

    http://www.greyhawkonline.com/wogcomic/creationmyth/mythpage5.htm

    I don't know if that's "right," but I haven't found anything else more decisive.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:16 am  
    Re: Creator god of Oerth

    altarion wrote:
    Does any one knows who is the creator god of Oerth? Or do you hane any information?


    I forget the issue number off hand but one of the last run of print Dragon Magazines imported the idea of Greek Titans into Greyhawk in an article about the monster type, titan. It had GH's current crop of gods battling the titans like out of Greek mythology. This would arguably seem to let out any of the current crop of gods as ultimate creators.

    There is also the twin issues of, not merely Oerthly origin, but cosmological origin. Again, without immediate access to my books, 1) the current "Great Wheel" has not always been and 2) the first illithids are specifically mentioned as being survivors/refugees of a "prior" universe that was destroyed (although the illithids are also supposed to be time travellers and a number of other conflicting things as well so YMMV). In either event, the suggestion is that creation is greater than just Oerth, hence there may be no creator deity, except for individual races - Moradin etc.

    IMC, there is on universal creator deity. Deities are products of universal creation, not the other way round. If you like that result, there is arguable support for such an outlook but YMMV.
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sat Apr 17, 2010 8:13 pm  
    Re: Creator god of Oerth

    GVDammerung wrote:
    altarion wrote:
    Does any one knows who is the creator god of Oerth? Or do you hane any information?


    I forget the issue number off hand but one of the last run of print Dragon Magazines imported the idea of Greek Titans into Greyhawk in an article about the monster type, titan. It had GH's current crop of gods battling the titans like out of Greek mythology. This would arguably seem to let out any of the current crop of gods as ultimate creators.


    That article isn't really an argument for the Greek cosmological model, since it turns it on its head by having the titans be the creations of the gods, instead of the other way around. The titans go to war against the gods because the gods want to create other races, and the titans don't want mommy and daddy bringing home the new baby brother from the hospital. Kind of a combo of Greek myth with some later sci-fi fantasy themes on the rebel angels of Christianity. I see it almost as a step in the evolution to 4e cosmology. Good article though.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Mon Apr 19, 2010 4:55 am  
    Re: Creator god of Oerth

    smillan_31 wrote:
    GVDammerung wrote:
    altarion wrote:
    Does any one knows who is the creator god of Oerth? Or do you hane any information?


    I forget the issue number off hand but one of the last run of print Dragon Magazines imported the idea of Greek Titans into Greyhawk in an article about the monster type, titan. It had GH's current crop of gods battling the titans like out of Greek mythology. This would arguably seem to let out any of the current crop of gods as ultimate creators.


    That article isn't really an argument for the Greek cosmological model, since it turns it on its head by having the titans be the creations of the gods, instead of the other way around. The titans go to war against the gods because the gods want to create other races, and the titans don't want mommy and daddy bringing home the new baby brother from the hospital. Kind of a combo of Greek myth with some later sci-fi fantasy themes on the rebel angels of Christianity. I see it almost as a step in the evolution to 4e cosmology. Good article though.



    I see
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    Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:34 am  
    Re: Oerth and Greyhawk

    Raymond wrote:
    I think metagme joke Gary is making extends to Greyhawk which is the name of the setting.

    According to the WoG comic, it's Beory:

    http://www.greyhawkonline.com/wogcomic/creationmyth/mythpage5.htm

    I don't know if that's "right," but I haven't found anything else more decisive.


    LOL. Well I do like someone quoting my theory of Oerthly creation. ;)Philosophically her reign ends at matters Oerthly and for answers to the greater cosmos and the planes you have to look further than her.
    Master Greytalker

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    Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:53 pm  

    Perhaps there is no creator. In my often-referred-to-but-never-likely-to-be-finished Systematic Theology of Oerth and Its Religions, I've decided that Oerth and all the planes are in fact eternal - they have no beginning and (theoretically) no end. Thus, while numerous religions may have deities they worship as creators, there is in fact no creator at all.
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