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    Canonfire :: View topic - Greyhawk 2012?
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    Greyhawk 2012?
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:28 am  
    Greyhawk 2012?

    Smile So, it has been awhile for me, unfortunately work/reality draws my attentions and has had the better part of of my time over the last few years, though I have remained vigilant and tried to look in on Canonfire every now and again to see how things are going.

    I've seen a gradual decline sadly, and it will be interesting to say the least how Greyhawk will surrive. I haven't the tech savy or time to maintain a site, and am greatfull for Canonfire for this. I hope it will last another 20 years Happy

    Aside from the obvious, does anyone know if Greyhawk will be resurrected by WotC anytime soon? I had the impression with some of the "original styled 1st Ed" mods, like "Tomb of Horrors" being re-made for the... ack... 4th Ed, that it would cascade into a full re-development of Greyhawk.

    Also, would anyone know of an online resource for the Living Greyhawk mods that had been produced over its life span with 3rd/3.5? I am looking to clear up the ones I am missing, and utilize them for additional GH lore/info/canon for my own GH campaign. I found them very usefull.

    Its great to know some of the old "faces" here stuck around and nice to some new ones.

    Long Live EGG, Long Live GH! Happy

    Later,

    Cool AncientGamer aka BusterBudd
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    Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:47 am  

    Buster Budd it will endure as it once did before its resurrection in 2E default setting in 3E. I do not think a 4E version will come to pass. However I believe the game of Dungeons and Dragons will change again whether a 4.5 or 5E version is next will be seen.

    If Wotc is smart they might want to get involved in the gaming community that they have disconnected with. Which is evident in Paizo's growth in the market. So do I think the phoenix will rise again yes. Until then people like those who frequent this site will keep the torch burning.
    GreySage

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    Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:57 am  

    Hmm, that is the question, isn't it. Confused

    There's another post "here," somewhere, that discussed this. I believe the Dark Sun setting is set to be the next "realm" developed for 4E. Those "in the know" have stated that WotC has no immediate plans for developing Greyhawk, sad to say.

    But it is good to "see" you again, Buster Budd. Been wondering what happened to you. And it was just . . . real life, which gets all of us eventually. Evil Grin

    Glad you're "back." Cool
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    Adept Greytalker

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    Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:32 pm  

    BusterBudd wrote:

    I've seen a gradual decline sadly, and it will be interesting to say the least how Greyhawk will surrive.


    I wouldn’t say it’s declining.

    As far as fan web presence, it's a bummer to see Oerth Journal slow down. On the other hand, GHwiki is awesome.

    In the last five years we've seen the Upper Works, L4 Devilspawn, WG13 Castle of the Mad Archmage, and a trickle of awesome stuff from RJK.

    Looking to WotC to save GH is barking up the wrong tree. They didn't save the setting in '98, the online community did. Mona, Moore, Holian, and others were already sitting around writing excellent online material; the only thing WotC did right was have the savvy to pay them for their efforts and put it in print.

    The money-minded IP holders have done three good things over the years:
    1) Assign Sargent to clean up the mess left by Wars (it could just as easily have been "Slade" Henson...*shudder*)
    2) Recruit fans in ‘98.
    3) The OGL.

    Otherwise, the official material hasn't been too good and I hope WotC stops revisiting it. Without the contributions of a few individuals, the setting has been joke modules, terrible novels, a couple flawed, linear, campaign books, and nostalgia-milking remakes since Gygax left.

    Obviously, I’m being a bit of a curmudgeon today. Part of me says “the more the merrier," even Hasbro regurgitations will have some merit…still, I had more fun brainstorming how to fit Charnel Crypt of the Sightless Serpent into GH Blackmoor yesterday than I have had reading anything TSR/WotC/Hasbro has put out since The Adventure Begins.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:47 pm  

    I put Charnal Crypt in Perrenland for my "Perrenland" campaign.

    I have no fear of Greyhawk dying as long as no one steals my boxed sets sitting taped-together on my bookshelf.

    Of course, even without a shred of printed text, the internet, or oujia board, I could still run a damn fine Greyhawk game.

    Hell, you could run a Greyhawk game by reading a Forgotten Realms novel as a reference for what not to do.

    Rules systems, these days, are moving away from settings as the plausibility of the encouraged archetypes gets thinner and thinner. In Golarion its the norm for any combination of alignments and races and non-role-playing-justifiable classes and whatnot to just traipse around environments as thematic as Hyrule saving 10th level aristocrats from having to fight ninth-degree templated berbalangs while referencing the rules for thirty minutes on how to climb a ladder (by the rules).
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:16 pm  

    chaoticprime wrote:

    Hell, you could run a Greyhawk game by reading a Forgotten Realms novel as a reference for what not to do.


    I think you just won the funniest man on Canonfire award. Laughing
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:18 pm  

    From what i have seen, the longer that WOTC goes without creating a Greyhawk product, the less likely it is that they ever will, except as possible revisions of classic modules. As the years go by and people who would buy Greyhawk products decline due to the fact that we accrue responsibiiltes as time passes.

    For a generic fantasy world, they already have Forgotten Realms (a campaign world with some nice touches, but otherwise it feels duct-taped together to me). As someone noted earlier, FR has also seen significant support from the fiction arm, whereas Greyhawk has had nothing to show for two-decades. Greyhawk fans did yoemann service in the late 90s tyo keep the setting alive, but their is a new factor against us, or at least against us getting anything official (let alone good) from WoTC.

    I suspect WoTC makes relatively little off of hard copy gaming products. When a new product hits the market, they have a limited time frame to make a profit off of it before it becomes available for free download aross the internet. Call it the "mating season", much like the Nigerian film industry (yes I read the Economist).

    So, since economics is against us, the fate of Greyhawk remains in our hands. More importantly, it is our responsiblity to make sure that their is a demand for Greyhawk in the future, not just among ourselves. This means playing with younger players who have perhaps never experienced Greyhawk... a little outreach goes a long way.
    GreySage

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    Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:42 pm  

    tarelton wrote:
    I suspect WoTC makes relatively little off of hard copy gaming products.


    I enjoy my computer game, Baldur's Gate (I & II). These two were followed by the game Neverwinter Nights. All three are set in Faerun (Forgotten Realms).

    That's where the money is now and that's what WotC is interested in. They've never done anything like that for Greyhawk and never will. These games now serve as the basis for any future development by them.

    Doing something like that for Greyhawk would almost mean starting over. They're not going to do that. Sad

    Too bad. I'd enjoy a game of that type based upon Greyhawk. It'd be awesome. And it would spur new interest in WoG as well. Too bad it will never happen.
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    Sat Mar 26, 2011 8:10 pm  

    Quote:
    They've never done anything like that for Greyhawk and never will.


    Greets Mystic-Scholar Smile , glad to see you too. I beg to differ on the computer games, I have GH Temple of Elemental Evil, same format PC game as Balder's Gate/Neverwinter. You should try and acquire a copy, its a good game.

    Quote:
    So do I think the phoenix will rise again yes.


    Agreed Argon, I am holding out hope that Greyhawk will rise again. Happy

    WotC apparentlt still refuses to surrender/sell the Lic for GH, which makes me believe they may have plans for it. Time will tell. Neutral

    Thank you all for the input, its appreciated. Happy

    Off to serve my political masters for a few weeks again, take care all.

    AncientGamer Cool aka BusterBudd
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    Sat Mar 26, 2011 8:19 pm  

    I admit that I liked Baldur's Gate I and II and NWN. I thought TOEE was a pretty good Greyhawk-themed development as well.

    What would actually be pretty neat is a mod for Medieval Total WarII that allows one to fight the Greyhawk Wars. That would allow someone to conduct both the strategic level of campaigning found in the boxed set, as well as the tactical. With some of the features found in Napolean Total War, it would also do a decent job of handling the operational level as well.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sat Mar 26, 2011 8:52 pm  

    ToEE was not Greyhawk, but 3.0 basic world. The difference being that the PHB gods were used, but the background behind the adventure was different, as was much of the possible events for its conclusions. In the opening video alone the whole battle of Emridy Meadows is changed.

    When the game came out I got into it pretty hardcore on a wotc forum for complaining about these changes.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sat Mar 26, 2011 9:42 pm  

    chaoticprime wrote:
    ToEE was not Greyhawk, but 3.0 basic world. The difference being that the PHB gods were used, but the background behind the adventure was different, as was much of the possible events for its conclusions. In the opening video alone the whole battle of Emridy Meadows is changed.

    When the game came out I got into it pretty hardcore on a wotc forum for complaining about these changes.


    Well, it *does* say it's a "classic Greyhawk adventure". Myself I was so happy to be able to play a GH themed game I didn't complain about a few minro (IMO) changes. And it does mention several locations; ie, one of the beginning skits takes place in Mitrik (NG), another in Rauxes (LE), the Gnarley Forest (N), Greyhawk (LN), and Celene (CG).

    I'll also second the request for LG Material. Would it be a problem for someone in possession of the modules to share them, seeing as how LG is no longer supported?
    Site Theocrat

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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:28 am  

    There also may be issues involved with allowing people to download LG mods from collections such as what some people have.
    Many attempts have been made to attempt a collection of the LG modules and I would guess that members of the Circle of Six (whatever they called themselves in the end) might have a complete collection. Creighton Broadhurst was one such person - and he now runs Raging Swan Press which produces Pathfinder compatible products.
    If it can be determined what ramifications are out there - like say by Marc Gonzalez, since he is a lawyer - then GHO would be more than willing to post its collection. Because of the nature of PDF's and WotC things may never be available in a 'public' setting. Even things like the Greyhawk Maps collection could be put to the test.
    We'll see what things GHO is able to do when I can return it to it's place. I will hopefully have things straightened out by the end of the week.
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    GreySage

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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:28 am  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    . I believe the Dark Sun setting is set to be the next "realm" developed for 4E.


    Dark Sun was last year.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:29 am  

    I live with Britt Frey, former Circle member (Iuz, successor to Chris Tulach who succeeded Jason Buhlman) and he doesn't have every Iuz meta-region regional mod ever, let alone every mod. The Circle had a failing of organizational skill: they never thought to make a complete database of every mod for archiving. Would have been easy as hell to do, to. *sigh*

    Britt also has a law degree. I've been dragging him onto Thursday night chats lately, so that may be a good place to ask him about the issues involved in hosting LG mods.

    Casey
    former BK Triad
    P.S. Theocrat, I need you in the resurrected Pholtan thread, thanks.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:36 am  

    Does anyone actually have a proper Mod count or a master list to compare against?
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:51 am  

    http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/296532-greyhawk-collectors-guide.html
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:55 am  

    Wow ! Excellent ! Now I can check if I have the whole collection :))
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:04 am  

    aurdraco wrote:
    http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/296532-greyhawk-collectors-guide.html

    I am not sure if I have all of the Mod, but I do know my folder for LG documents is over 5GB in size. I must admit there would be duplicates in that main folder by there is one sub folder that is just under 3GB in size that is doesn't have duplicates.

    I will check it against the list and see where I stand.

    Thanks
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:27 am  

    I copied the list into an excel sheet, I haven't removed all the spaces, the total comes to 2121 entries, if you remove the spaces I would say it looks to be just over 2100 possible scenarios.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:45 am  

    I can't imagine all this work falling into oblivion. I don't know about the legal issues though I guess we can't officially use these, but, hell, that's so much knowledge.

    On the other post, about a new Greyhawk Era, I was proposing to use these modules as a backbone to avdancing history. We don't even have to incorporate all of them. Story arcs are the most interesting to me.

    By the way, I built that up in an hour or so, based only on Perrenland modules and files I found on the internet over the years. I think it's our best strength to reboot Greyhawk :)

    http://www.torgan.net/wiki/index.php/Living_Greyhawk_Modules
    http://www.torgan.net/wiki/index.php/Perrendand
    GreySage

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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:09 am  

    Torgan wrote:
    By the way, I built that up in an hour or so, based only on Perrenland modules and files I found on the internet over the years. I think it's our best strength to reboot Greyhawk :)

    http://www.torgan.net/wiki/index.php/Living_Greyhawk_Modules
    http://www.torgan.net/wiki/index.php/Perrendand


    One hour?! Shocked

    Nice work, Torgan. It's a great beginning. Smile

    SirXaris
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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:42 am  

    One hour to build-up the wiki and then to copy/paste the texts from the module and from a a summary gathered from the Perrenland Triad :)
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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:08 am  

    Great work, Torgan.

    I like this kind of summarising stuff; it helps to drive things forward, you can ignore what you don't like and I don't have to read tons of pages which I haven't time for.

    Happy Happy Happy
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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:08 pm  

    This is the exact kind of thing I was talking about. I think making something similar for other fan-created events would be great, as well.
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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:33 pm  
    Reinvigoration of GH and its resources

    I would like to say, I like the way that the thread is progressing ... there's a lot of good ideas coming around, and a lot of creative projects being hinted at.

    One minor note, though.
    chaoticprime wrote:
    ToEE was not Greyhawk, but 3.0 basic world.

    While I am certain that they changed a lot of things for the video game, as they do for many book to movie conversions, D&D 3.0 wasn't a generic world. I understand the point that you were making, though. But, one of the few things that I liked about the conversion to 3.5 was that they took out all of the references already in 3.0 about GH.
    D&D Gazeteer wrote:
    The D&D game setting is located on the sphere of Oerth, most specifically on the continent of Oerik, in its easternmost portion called the Flanaess.

    There were a lot of references in books like Sword and Fist, Song and Silence, Tome and Blood and even minor references inside the DMG itself.

    I know I probably sound like I am nitpicking, but, I guess all that I am really saying is that one of the coolest parts of 3rd Ed. was that it was GH. Granted, it was like Greyhawk-Lite, but, still ... you know, the point remains.
    I'd like to see a Pathfinder-compatible GH, personally.
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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:24 pm  
    Re: Reinvigoration of GH and its resources

    Icarus wrote:
    I'd like to see a Pathfinder-compatible GH, personally.


    It would be easier to make Pathfinder compatible with Greyhawk. You would have to change less.

    I mean otherwise, disintegration spells would stop actually disintegrating things, basilisks would only become a minor annoyance, and you would have limping Oracles carrying a canoe full of +10 star knives in a party with a half-orc with a vorpal bite attack.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:34 am  

    There is enough passion for Greyhawk amongst Canonfire devotees. If real life wasn't getting in the way we'd be fine. There also seems to be enough writing and creating talent.

    I know there is a Greyhawk wiki out there, and I know this idea has been around before, but it would be great to see a fan-produced "Greyhawk Hardcover". It would take years, but the Canonfire "officials" could probably form a moderating committee and members could vote of submissions for inclusion in the hardcover.

    So similar to another thread people could propose the timeline for a Greyhawk refresh just as if a new hardcover was coming out. People could then submit bits and pieces and have them voted on. Perhaps a bit like a postfest? (Are they voted on?). Then the most popular is filed away and we do another one on the next topic and keep going until there is enough.

    I'm mean if internet users can produce wikipedia - surely canonfire fans can produce a new Greyhawk book? We just need to get the mechanism right. The starting point would be for someone to propose a table of contents for the "new Greyhawk hardcover". I suppose then you might run into issue-wars, because I would want to hardness the good bits (most) of 3.x to flavour things up.

    Maybe it is too hard?
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    Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:24 am  

    Perhaps not necessarily a hardcover, but a pdf publication, might be easier, at least cost wise. Speaking of which, could a "LG update" that presents the events and results of LG be incorporated into the Oerth Journal?
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:31 am  

    One such article, on the Bandit Kingdoms is actually being worked on right now.

    As to Phalastar's mention of a "Greyhawk Hardcover", I think he probably means a fan-made campaign setting source book in pdf format.
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    Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:39 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    One such article, on the Bandit Kingdoms is actually being worked on right now.

    As to Phalastar's mention of a "Greyhawk Hardcover", I think he probably means a fan-made campaign setting source book in pdf format.


    Awesome!

    BTW, I just remembered that both Red Hand of Doom and Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk were considered canon within LG. Anyone know where RHoD took place, and what were the "canonical" outcomes of both? I'm curious.
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    Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:30 am  

    I've been plugging away at a gazeteer since 2e. LG modules multiplied the amount of information massively. I'd be happy for the information to make its way into a pdf or wiki but I think that because much of it so far has been lifted directly from the source material (including Greyhawk gazeteers, LG mods, Oerth Journal, & Canonfire articles), it would need a substantial amount of editing to avoid copyright breaches. The bibliography will be huge too.

    I tried a bit too hard to log information on npcs to the point where I was getting bogged down in the plots of the modules. Cross referencing npcs proved to be a real pain too. Making it edition neutral would also be my preference now that 2 editions have passed me by.

    I'm currently going through the LG mods cross referencing information on locations (towns, inns etc) to try and help Anna with her maps. Once that is done I'm going to go back and edit the information together into paragraphs. Then maybe go back a third time and add in information on the npcs. (some of the LG mods are secured so I can't just cut and paste all the information).

    In some ways, a searchable engine might even be better. You could have a player or a DM tick box, you could type in the name you want and it would draw in details of the country/region, the specific location, nearby locations, and maybe links to other local things like local organisations or neighbouring countries.

    Keoland is the closest to finished so if somebody with relevant editing or computer skills wants to form a view on what can be done with the information let's get cracking!

    BTW - some elements from my own campaign have crept in, including lower population levels more akin to the 1e numbers, less non-human integration, and more limited access to wizard schools/guilds etc.
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    Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:54 am  

    Yep I by "Greyhawk Hardcover" I meant fan produced pdf.

    I thought about the search wiki type stuff. I suppose my thinking is that the discipline of editing down material to fit in a defined "book" tends to produce higher quality material. We force people to make decisions on what to include and exclude.

    If we were starting a project like this we would need to circulate the idea widely amongst visitors and draw in their opinions - guage the level of interest. Then we would need to seek some commitments from people about what they think they could do for the project.

    It could be a lot of fun. I would propose it start basic - like a short description of each nation, updated for a new year (CY600?), and get feedback on that, then expand from there.

    You would need a group of people working on this, they could have a go then let everyone comment on it, then collectively decide what of the feedback to incorporate.

    I imagine adding Anna's amazing maps (or should that be Amazing Anna's maps!) to the "book" would make it look very smart.

    After you get some general materials sorted (nations, deities, leaders) you then have sub-groups produce more material/stats to cater for different editions.

    I would have thought you would run into much legal trouble using some of the old text. Seriously if you own the IP, and your not doing anything with it, why would you stop people having fun? As long as it was strictly non-commercial and fan based. You'd have to be a major killjoy.

    My deep desire (given unlimited resources, time and putting some of my favourite artists on retainer (hello Wayne Reynolds), would be to do an expanded Greyhawk Gazetteer for 3.x with 3e specific Greyhawk material and the setting updated to CY 600.
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    Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:36 am  

    Lukas wrote:
    BTW, I just remembered that both Red Hand of Doom and Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk were considered canon within LG. Anyone know where RHoD took place, and what were the "canonical" outcomes of both? I'm curious.


    For Red Hand of Dom the module was "ADP6-03 - Red Hand of Doom Adaptation". The adventure take place in Sterich.

    Quote:
    Conversion to Living Greyhawk
    This adapted version of Red Hand of Doom is set in the southwestern end of the March of Sterich, in the area near the headwaters of the Davish River, where the Jotens and Crystalmists meet. Please refer to the map of the Flanaess provided with the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer and the map provided as a DM aid at the end of this document for a more detailed look at this area. This document will provide details on the translation of places mentioned in the adventure to locations in Sterich; however, it is left to you to make the changes within the text and on the maps in the adventure. You’ll need to adapt the map of the Elsir Vale (page 9) quite a bit to make it fit the southwestern corner of Sterich.


    Send me your e-mail by PM and i will send you the document.

    Sergio :-)
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