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Iuz--The Old One Concept Artwork
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chaoticprime
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:27 pm    Post subject: Iuz--The Old One Concept Artwork Reply with quote

Here we have human form--


...and demonic form,


I described to Damascus what was written over several sources for what he should draw. He was not influenced by any current artwork for either form.
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SirXaris
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all, the artwork is great! Smile

Second, the demonic form is perfect (although the sword is a tad bit too small).

Third, though I agree with the comment made elsewhere on this website that 'evil' shouldn't always look evil, that doesn't apply to an evil demigod in my mind. Iuz, in his old man form, should look more degeneratively evil than the concept you present here. In my humble opinion, of course. Wink

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chaoticprime
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SirXaris wrote:
First of all, the artwork is great! Smile

Second, the demonic form is perfect (although the sword is a tad bit too small).

Third, though I agree with the comment made elsewhere on this website that 'evil' shouldn't always look evil, that doesn't apply to an evil demigod in my mind. Iuz, in his old man form, should look more degeneratively evil than the concept you present here. In my humble opinion, of course. Wink

SirXaris


I figured that the paint job would make up for the rest of the evil. We discussed how to draw an evil old wizard as a basis for a miniature sculpt. Shading the face to look darker would not really lend much assistance to the sculptor. Our ultimate decision was basically that "if a wizard does not look totally like a good wizard, he is undoubtedly evil."

The necklace is meant to be his holy symbol, but I did not want to push my luck.

I wanted to go with less of a spindly evil wizard, and more of an evil overlord wizard. Imagine Max Von Sydow in the role.

The sword on the demon is largely placeholder, in truth. We we unsure of what to use as a greatsword, as basically there are two medieval sword types, arming swords and longswords. We went with a big sharp thing too large to be used in one hand. Also, the length of the blade matches up with the end of the page, haha.
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Argon
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The artwork is good. However the demonic form feels out of place to me I picture Iuz as a hoofed emaciated looking wrinkled demon faced creature with elongated fingernails caked with the blood of mortals souls rendered for the old ones power and pleasure.
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chaoticprime
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never came across "hoofed" or "wrinkled" in the form's description. I came across "bloated" in every instance, however.
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Crag
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I agree that evil does not always have to look evil - Iuz is the demi-god of deceit. However, his true forms reveal his evil lineage in all their fearful glory as polar opposites.

The decrepit old man with robes hanging from a frail emaciated physique that still inspires terror says something important about the vile nature of the villian.

I would argue that the artwork of the noble visage that evil hides behind is also cliché. I think the decrepit old man visage should be kept and celebrated not given a botox treatment.

Just a thought...


Last edited by Crag on Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:33 am; edited 3 times in total
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chaoticprime
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did not design it to have a noble visage, hence the haggard face and unkempt hair. Decrepit just means old and infirm. I do not see a powerfully built wizard, I see an old man standing up straight. The GH Wiki describes him as "a gnarled, old human male." Gnarled means "knobbly or rough with age." There are plenty of Emperor Palpatine miniatures.

I went more with this look...
http://www.dieabolic.com/DarkTimes/Images/Iuz%20Pic.png http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/4new/cc/march2010/46Iuz.jpg http://cdn.obsidianportal.com/assets/47549/Iuz2.jpg

...than with this look:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-MktSsozjIgw/TZjiDh6vUUI/AAAAAAAABmg/O7Ah39jZ2v4/s1600/iuz.JPG, http://www.gamebanshee.com/templeofelementalevil/images/iuztheold.jpg

Like I said, shading his face to make him have sunken eyes and gaunt features does not help the sculptor, which is what this drawing is meant to do. In one of the more recent (above) picture, Iuz looks to have ripped muscles.

I also did not make him bald, as I had my doubts that Grazz't or Iggwilv would have passed Male-Pattern-Baldness on to him through heredity.
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Cebrion
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grazz't isn't bald, Iuz is. Iuz doesn't have horns either. I would recommend making his face less human, more demonic, ditch the Gene Simmons tongue and put some fangs in there. A bit less "horns on a fat dude that hasn't cut his finger/toe nails", and a bit more demon. He's a cambion, so just a semi-demon, but it should show. The general shape of the body in the art is pretty good.

The Crocodile Dundee knife should be a great sword. "That's not a great sword. This is a great sword. ;)

As for the old man form, yes, that chimpanzee art work was god-awful. There is better art though. You old man art is much, much too virile .. And clean. Old Iuz should be ragged and decrepit, as in feeble(thin) looking and unkempt. The old man is looking way too virile and clean. More like The Emperor from Star Wars than what you've got there. You've just got to make him something a bit different than that. There's just nothing evil/vile going on there. The artwork you went for from Iuz the Evil and such is not expressed well in that drawing. That drawing is of an older man, not an old man. Older guys are looking to pick up women at the local tavern. Old guys are looking to not break a hip on their way to get jello in the cafeteria of the retirement home. Iuz the Old is retirement home Iuz. Old Iuz form is a ploy. He looks less threatening than he is, so the foolish might underestimate him or even mess with him. Demon form Iuz is a little more blatantly "I'll physically destroy you and swallow your soul if you mess with me!" The art should capture this more.
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chaoticprime
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alright, I will cancel the miniature over its unanimous disapproval. I had this concept art done up using the published resources I had available, and as the only customer base I have for it does not want it, I have no reason to pursue it.

I tried.
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MToscan
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always figured human form Iuz like Uncle Creepy.
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PaulN6
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Awww, don't be disheartened! You will never please all of the people all of the time! I like the demonic form, although I imagined him as being a bit fatter! I think he wields a greatsword too but overall it's good.

The old man form looks too... normal. Reminds me of Christopher Lee as Saruman. I've seen Iuz described as short, wizened, and even mannequin-like. So he should be really wrinkly, possibly hunched, and foul. I think the way to visualise him is to recall that his signature is spitting at people and they age and die. Can you imagine the human form drawing spitting at people - to me he just looks like he'd blast with spells. Still, make his hair limp and hunch him over and I think he'd be fine too.
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chaoticprime
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not disheartened, I just got it wrong. The spitting on people thing struck me as unlikely from my rendition

My problem is that apparently all the published descriptions of Iuz are incorrect as no picture of him is an accurate depiction.

I am going to need more to go on that "greatsword," too, as there really was no such thing. The term was one of the many that helped blanket longswords. If I depict him with a longsword, people will complain that the sword is not big enough.

So how am I supposed to depict Iuz?

He is bald in some of his renderings, but in none of his descriptions. He is emaciated in his descriptions, but in few of his renderings. He is a cambion, but does not look like one in any way, shape, or form.

http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Iuz

None of the images depicted on this page look anything like the above description on the same page.

No one actually knows what he looks like, but everyone knows that he does not look like my concept art.

So basically what you all want is this? http://heystupid.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/mumm-ra.jpg
http://images.wikia.com/thundercats/images/0/07/Mummra_2.jpg
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rasgon
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My favorite depiction of the withered Iuz is Sam Wood's sketch from Dragon #290. Iuz isn't an elderly human; he's an "old and wrinkled mannikin." As Gary Gygax said, "His wrinkled visage causes revulsion in most creatures which view it."

Christopher Lee doesn't "cause revulsion in most creatures." Neither did my grandfathers. Palpatine might, but even Palpatine is a man, not a mannikin. Iuz should be a dried-up husk of a humanoid, barely recognizable as human, twisted and alien. There's a reason they call him "the Old" and not "that old guy." He should look so ancient that he personifies old age, enough that Old becomes a title and not just one of several distinguishing features he might be identified by. He looks older than anyone.

Damascus's take on the fat demoniac Iuz is acceptable to me (Sam Wood's isn't fat enough). I'm amused that he apparently burst out of his clothes like the Hulk, but I would be surprised if he didn't have magical armor that resized itself when he did. It's not like he doesn't have the resources, and that's a pretty standard feature in magical armor.

Mumm-Ra is actually a good start, actually.
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chaoticprime
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In keeping with the AD&D theme of my game, I am leaning significantly towards Rasgon's opining.

In Dragon #67 Iuz is described by Gary Gygax, as "an old and wrinkled mannikin of scarcely 5' height." Like Mumm-Ra, the only common raiment between both forms would be Iuz's magical half-cape.

I would not venture to put armor on him, however, as he is a cleric/assassin by class, emphasis on the assassin. He is armed with a two-handed sword, which I will likely interpret as a zweihander, as only it and the claymore are truly two-handed swords. Bastard sword, hand-and-a-half sword, and greatsword are all other names for longsword.

As much as I like Greyhawk, I am unwilling to spend several hundred dollars on a miniature devoted to it if the relatively small fanbase is only mildly interested. I want to make these miniatures to show my support for the setting, and to make its fans happy.

I will refine the artwork (probably drawing it myself). When the website gets finished, I will put up a pre-order for the miniature. If I am satisfied with the interest level for the miniature, I will have it produced.
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PaulN6
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chaoticprime wrote:
I am not disheartened, I just got it wrong. The spitting on people thing struck me as unlikely from my rendition

My problem is that apparently all the published descriptions of Iuz are incorrect as no picture of him is an accurate depiction.

I am going to need more to go on that "greatsword," too, as there really was no such thing. The term was one of the many that helped blanket longswords. If I depict him with a longsword, people will complain that the sword is not big enough.

So how am I supposed to depict Iuz?

He is bald in some of his renderings, but in none of his descriptions. He is emaciated in his descriptions, but in few of his renderings. He is a cambion, but does not look like one in any way, shape, or form.

http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Iuz

None of the images depicted on this page look anything like the above description on the same page.

No one actually knows what he looks like, but everyone knows that he does not look like my concept art.

So basically what you all want is this? http://heystupid.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/mumm-ra.jpg
http://images.wikia.com/thundercats/images/0/07/Mummra_2.jpg


You're right - there is no definitive description and maybe it is because there are so few pieces of artwork that people have been imagining him in their heads for decades (the cover of Iuz the Evil was not how I imagined Iuz personally so there you go). I suppose all you can do is try and go with the consensus. It's an unenviable task!

The wizened Mumm-ra is much closer to how I've always imagined Iuz actually - without the bandages. Certainly that is closer for me than the artwork on Iuz the Evil or the recent illustration in Dungeon - but that is just my opinion mind you. I think this is an awesome project and I will buy it regardless (although I confess I haven't bought Iggwilv yet I intend to do so if she is still available). We know Iuz wears a cloak so a mix of a hunched (and hooded?) Mumm-ra dressed in your human illustration robes might be closer to my vision - but that is just one opinion.

I really like your demonic form (but please give him some clothing in the groin area for the love of the gods). The sword is a minor detail for me but I tend to favour 1e information personally so his sword would just be an extra large two-handed sword. I assumed that it was intended to be two-handed for him although that will be a pain if it stops him strangling people - what did other people assume?

One thing that sprung to mind from the Mumm-ra demon-form was that Iuz still wears his cloak in that form although I confess I find that hard to visualise. He just looks better without it unless it can be made to look cool in some way.
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MToscan
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The demonic form I had in my head is something in the vein of this

http://www.nuclearblast.de/shop/artikel/bilder/kreator-pleasure-to-kill-re-release/159407.jpg?x=1000&y=1000

plus multiple layers of fat. Linda like the Butcher from Diablo 1.


As for the wizened human one, no one mentions Vince Locke's rendition on the LGG?

PS: +1 for the Sam Wood "old one" version, looks fantastic.
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chaoticprime
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PaulN6 wrote:


You're right - there is no definitive description and maybe it is because there are so few pieces of artwork that people have been imagining him in their heads for decades (the cover of Iuz the Evil was not how I imagined Iuz personally so there you go). I suppose all you can do is try and go with the consensus. It's an unenviable task!

The wizened Mumm-ra is much closer to how I've always imagined Iuz actually - without the bandages. Certainly that is closer for me than the artwork on Iuz the Evil or the recent illustration in Dungeon - but that is just my opinion mind you. I think this is an awesome project and I will buy it regardless (although I confess I haven't bought Iggwilv yet I intend to do so if she is still available). We know Iuz wears a cloak so a mix of a hunched (and hooded?) Mumm-ra dressed in your human illustration robes might be closer to my vision - but that is just one opinion.

I really like your demonic form (but please give him some clothing in the groin area for the love of the gods). The sword is a minor detail for me but I tend to favour 1e information personally so his sword would just be an extra large two-handed sword. I assumed that it was intended to be two-handed for him although that will be a pain if it stops him strangling people - what did other people assume?

One thing that sprung to mind from the Mumm-ra demon-form was that Iuz still wears his cloak in that form although I confess I find that hard to visualise. He just looks better without it unless it can be made to look cool in some way.


I have about a dozen copies of Iggwilv left. They go for 3.99+shipping costs. I do not charge handling fees.

I am going to draw up something for the mini. Maybe we can use the Damascus art to depict Mordenkainen?
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SirXaris
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chaoticprime wrote:

I am going to draw up something for the mini. Maybe we can use the Damascus art to depict Mordenkainen?


In his youth, perhaps, since the Damascus drawing has hair? Razz

SirXaris
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chaoticprime
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SirXaris wrote:
chaoticprime wrote:

I am going to draw up something for the mini. Maybe we can use the Damascus art to depict Mordenkainen?


In his youth, perhaps, since the Damascus drawing has hair? Razz

SirXaris


I make it a point to ignore anything 3rd edition related for my miniature designs. AD&D is the theme.
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Cebrion
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chaoticprime wrote:
I am going to need more to go on that "greatsword," too, as there really was no such thing. The term was one of the many that helped blanket longswords. If I depict him with a longsword, people will complain that the sword is not big enough.

"Great sword" or two-handed isn't a blanket term for a long sword. It refers to a sword that is a bit bigger than the average long blade. Its more specific names, such as zweihander, claymore, etc., are better known, but even still it is not all that well defined at a term. In AD&D/D&D however, it is. In game terms, a great sword is a sword which requires two hands to use, and that is what Iuz wields. It's a big war blade.

My only request would be to NOT make it look like a Landsknecht zweihander... http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europ%C3%A4ischer_Zweih%C3%A4nder

...or a claymore... http://www.google.com/search?q=claymore+sword&hl=en&sa=G&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENUS276&prmd=ivns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&ei=yfkKTseXLZTQiAKVmPjhAQ&ved=0CDcQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=870

Those are swords of the real world. How about something forged in Greyhawk or the Abyss instead. Cool

As to the old man Iuz, these would be closer:

http://www.gianlucamiragoli.com/ImmaginiRender/OldMan.jpg

http://rcreptiles.com/blog/media/old-man-winter.jpg(copy/paste the link into your browser)

I really like that last pic. It is creepy and sinister, and the overall look is just about dead on in my mind. Just imagine that, instead of a cold north wind, that is spit flying from his mouth. Put a robe on him, and over that a black cloak, and Bob's yer uncle. Wink Cool

He doesn't need any pouches and such. Iuz needs no money or spell components. Wink
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Last edited by Cebrion on Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:14 am; edited 1 time in total
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PaulN6
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MToscan wrote:
As for the wizened human one, no one mentions Vince Locke's rendition on the LGG?


Yeah that illustration isn't too bad, although he looks like he's in his PJs. Put him in a hooded cloak and he'd look much better.
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chaoticprime
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not going to bother with this miniature at all, anymore. I am setting myself up to be rejected by the very group of people I have intended to appease.

We are just going to have to be happy with all of the other Iuz miniatures available for purchase.
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PaulN6
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nooooooooooo! Damn the nerds and their (or should that be our) obsession with minor details. I suppose the margins for interpretation are much narrower when it comes to simple human(oid) figures.

Out of interest though, what other suitable Iuz figures are out there? I know there are figures for Demogorgon, Lolth, Orcus, Baphomet, Graz'zt, Juiblex, and a few more besides.
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Cebrion
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PaulN6 wrote:
Nooooooooooo! Damn the nerds and their (or should that be our) obsession with minor details. I suppose the margins for interpretation are much narrower when it comes to simple human(oid) figures.

This is the very first bit of feedback on anything presented visually. One would think that honest opinions would be valued.

chaoticprime wrote:
I am not going to bother with this miniature at all, anymore. I am setting myself up to be rejected by the very group of people I have intended to appease.

Only if you choose not to listen to the very first bits of constructive criticism on this project. You would be better served by offering up concept art(i.e. sketches) rather than finished art, as it will save you time/money. Development has more than one stage. One of those stages is "feedback and correction". Sorry if you don't like that stage in the process, but if you are looking to give somebody what they want then it is arguably the most important stage, though some will argue that getting to know what people want in the first place is of equal or even of greater importance. Basically, it's a swing and a miss this time. Learn from it by taking to heart what people have to say.
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chaoticprime
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not balking at criticism, I am balking at there being no solution to my problem. There is no one version of this character that can be agreed upon.

This is not a swing and a miss, this is it. I am trying to nail down shadows.

@Cebrion-I asked what people wanted months ago and got nearly nothing from anyone. I used the information from CF's wiki page and published artwork by TSR/Wotc, which is apparently incorrect.

You insulting me is just the final straw in this. I am finished with Canonfire. I try to do a nice thing, and end up being accused of not knowing what I am doing by an appointed administrator.

Why not put yourself in my position? Go back and look at my other mentions of this project in past threads.

@PaulN6 - I was using sarcasm. There are no other Iuz miniatures.
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