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shamus
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 12:53 pm    Post subject: Orc Tribes Catalogued? Reply with quote

I'm pretty sure this information has been captured somewhere but... has anyone compiled a list of all the names of the various orc tribes found in the Eastern Flanaess?
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Tedra
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ooo, I don't know, but if anyone does, I'd like to see it too.
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abysslin
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know it was Carl Sargent, but I'm unsure of which product.
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GeneWeigel
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sargent applied the Flan names of various humanoids to represent his orc tribes in his IUZ THE EVIL supplement.

Oops!

The names of the orc tribes of Greyhawk are in the original Monster Manual under orc.

The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun gives an excellent example of one of those tribes in action.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Abysslin wrote:
I know it was Carl Sargent, but I'm unsure of which product.


In "City of Skulls" there are, a least, 2 orc tribes named: Kazgund y Urzun.

Saludos,
Gabriel
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ScottG
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Blood Moon and Vile Rune were two competeing tribes in the Bone March. The name of an orc tribe that lives in the Yatils is mentioned in the Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun, and EGG told me the names of the two orc tribes that dwelled in/around the Greyhawk Castle dungeons, but I can't remember their names right now.
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cwslyclgh
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Sargent applied the Flan names of various humanoids to represent his orc tribes in his IUZ THE EVIL supplement.

Oops!


indeed, one of the few things that Sargent did that I find amiss.
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cwslyclgh
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the orc tribes listed in the 1e MM are: The Vile Rune, Bloody Head, Death Moon, Broken Bone, Evil Eye, Leprous Hand, Rotting Eye, and Dripping Blade. I believe that 1e Unearthed Arcana revealed that the tribes were loosly named after the symbol of which ever god in the orcish pantheon they considered thier patron (For example Broken Bone orcs revered Bhargtu, god of strength and stupidity, while Evil Eye orcs held Gruumsh as thier patron etc).
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shamus
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cwslyclgh wrote:
the orc tribes listed in the 1e MM are: The Vile Rune, Bloody Head, Death Moon, Broken Bone, Evil Eye, Leprous Hand, Rotting Eye, and Dripping Blade.

I seem to recall that Vile Rune and Death Moon were located in the Bone March. And I might be wrong but some obscure memory cells are tickling my sense of recall that the Bloody Heads might be from the Pomarj.

But all that's going off my memories which are admittedly spotty at best.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I seem to recall that Vile Rune and Death Moon were located in the Bone March.


3 posts up, bud. Wink
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rumblebelly
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why don't we start a catalogue for Orc and other humanoid tribes, just like the nice one done for the Dragons of Oerth? I know a lot of tribes are listed in a Dragon Magazine article entitled See the Pomarj and Die. I'll try and find it and see if I can catalogue the various tribes there.
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rumblebelly
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, here's a start. The following all come from Dragon #167, p.12.

Tribe - Number of Warriors - Hex Location
Cracked Skull 800 C4-104
Crooked Claw 700 Z3-102
Flaming Skull 900 E4-103
Jagged Blade 750 B4-104
Red Fang 950 Z3-104
Saltburner 500 V3-100
Shadowdoom 250 V3-103

In addition, the article mentions that there exist several minor tribes of 50 - 100 warriors each.
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mortellan
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 21, 2004 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slavers expands on that great article...

Cracked Skull (central) Loyal to Turrosh Mak, flag is cracked white skull on a black field.

Crooked Claw (north-central) They breed with ogres. Flag is a single curved claw on gray.

Flaming Skull (north-west) Use flaming oil. Black skull surrounded by flames symbol.

Jagged Blade (south-central) Many rogues. Flag is a jagged dagger on brown field.

Red Fang (central-south) Some orcs are born with a vestigal third eye. Flag is red jaws on a black field.

Saltburner (north-east) Torturers. Flaming brand symbol.

Shadowdoom (east) Extra-sensitive to light. Flag is black circle on gray.
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GeneWeigel
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sargent fails in this instance so he should be avoided and Zeb Cook was very anti-Gygax (e.g. anti-Greyhawk) at the time Slavers was written.

There is no reference to the MM orc tribes in the Pomarj issue so its fan's fiction at best.

Not that there is anything wrong with using any of the above (as I'm sure we all have been not really discerning the original creative intent of the World of Greyhawk at one time or another and just played. ;) I had developed my own tribes for the entire continent a long time back. ) but if we're going to discuss heartily the aspects of the world consider what came first above all then let the rest fall where it may. I know it sounds harsh but just follow me in the end you'll be glad.

This is what needs focus right now:

The MM tribes

The WG4 orc subtribe of one of the MM tribes in the Yatils (I think its MM's Rotting Eye but I don't have it on hand to check or to get the subtribe's name either.) This adventure is very important to see how these tribes are structured.

The Bone March Dragon article by Kuntz (at the time was in charge of creative development of Eastern Flanaess).

Iuz when Gygax was featuring him often (Pre-Sargent)

Various other modules, the WoG Boxed set, etc.

Then consider that later stuff.

I'll try to scour through some of this stuff this weekend and see what comes up.

N.B. Rob Kuntz said Robilar's Quij did not belong to any notable orc tribe.
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abysslin
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Sargent fails in this instance so he should be avoided and Zeb Cook was very anti-Gygax (e.g. anti-Greyhawk) at the time Slavers was written.


We're gonna use em all.

Quoting the FAQ

Quote:
What is Canonfire!

Canonfire! is a portal site/webzine produced by the members of the GREYtalk Mailing List. It is an interactive place to post and read news, articles, and archive material focusing primarily on the World of Greyhawk Fantasy Setting. Furthermore, Canonfire! is editionless (or rather editionfull) catering to all editions and/or game systems as well as all products Greyhawk.




I'll start on a special feature page when I see a bigger list. Wink

Please attempt to follow the following format and we'll see whcih categories stick...

Tribe Name - Leader - Population - Location (Hex or Area) - Deity -Flag/Symbol - Product Appearance

Those, I think, are the 7 most important column categories.

It is interesting that this thread has popped up, Mortellan and I were shaking some ideas around similiar to this.
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Last edited by abysslin on Thu Jul 22, 2004 7:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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shamus
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Abysslin wrote:
3 posts up, bud. Wink

Heh, thanks. But... is it "Death Moon"? Or "Blood Moon"?
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cwslyclgh
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We know that Zief has a high orc population (Where they are even somewhat accepted in society), but do we know what tribe or tribes the orcs belong to?
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GeneWeigel
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, make room for daddy and let the catering begin!

;)
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GeneWeigel
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alright so its established that you'll use them all and my "edition" doesn't, so what?

I've got just as much right to lend a hand at compiling an original structure.

According to WG4 you have a close look at members of the Orcs of the Rotting Eye, belonging to the clan of the Jagged Knife. It features their shield device as what appears to be a short sword through a splayed eye capsule, muscles and optic nerve. It doesn't match the description of a huge glaive-like knife with a serrated edge with a targe below it shaped and colored like a rotted eye but its close enough.

It goes into more detail describing the Rotting Eye orcs garb and other details.

An excellent foundation and well worth the consideration.
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cwslyclgh
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the 1e MM makes no claims that the list of orc tribes given is exhaustive, infact it lists them as examples...thre for other tribes of orcs were assumed to exist in the flaneass at the time of the writing, and future products simply expanded upon that (IMO).

that being said I feel that Sergeant's orc tribe names in Iuz the evil are so obviously an error that they should be listed seperatly from any sort of huge compiled list of orc tribes etc. that we create.

finaly, Gene: Any help you decide to provide whether drawn strictly from 1e sources or not, will be valued. :)
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abysslin
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2004 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree, Gene's input will be of a huge help.

Secondly, I think we can commonly agree on Sargent having a fault on this subject. I can organize it much like the Dragons of Oerth page with seperate tables with hardly any extra labor involved.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GeneWeigel wrote:
Sargent fails in this instance so he should be avoided and Zeb Cook was very anti-Gygax (e.g. anti-Greyhawk) at the time Slavers was written.

There is no reference to the MM orc tribes in the Pomarj issue so its fan's fiction at best.


You should look at Slavers again--it was written by Sean Reynolds & Chris Pramas, not David Cook.

As for orc tribes beyond MM1e, like Wes said, they weren't meant to be exhaustive.

And I agree that Sargent screwed up by using the "Flan" names for his orc tribes. But then again, I've always felt that the Flan names for various demihuman & humanoid races were stupid--they all sound like someone trying to say the "traditional" name while chewing on a big dirt clod.
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mortellan
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hey abys, you may want to review your thread on wotc from march, it was about this very subject:

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=197072&highlight=kazgund
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

heh, yah I was looking at it earlier Wink
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2004 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

People are throwing the words "tribe" and "clan" around as if they were interchangeable. Perhaps in common usage they are, but my take on their general use in the social sciences is that they are different.

With the warning that I am not an anthropologist, I think tribe is more properly used as a political designation. A tribe is a political entity, having political leaders and a defined territory. You belong to your tribe because your tribe is where you live, and is similar to the idea of nation.

A clan is not political. A clan is primarily based on bloodline. You belong to the clan you were born into (either your mother's clan or your father's, depending on whether the society is matrilineal or patrilineal), and that does not change regardless of shifts in politics, conquest, etc. Usually clans have exogamy rules, that is, you are not allowed to marry within your clan.

A tribe (political unit) typically has several clans (religious/descent units). The neighboring tribe probably has many of the same clans. Since you have to marry outside your clan, each tribe has bonds between the clans. But likely the clans compete within the tribe for position, with the clan of the leader probably having a better position. If you leave your tribe to deal with another tribe, you will be most warmly received by members of your clan within that other tribe.

As a specific example, IIRC, the Iroquoi confederacy had five (later six) nations: Onandaga, Seneca, Mohawk, Cayuga, and Oneida. These might be considered Great Tribes, since they were organized political units that ruled specific terriories. Each village belonged to one of the nations, so a village might be considered a sub-tribe, or tribal chiefdom. However, regardless of his tribe/nation, an Iroquoi belongs to one of four (?) clans, based on matrilineal descent, for example, Turtle. Most of the clans were common across all the nations/tribes.

So, how does this relate to orcs? I recall reading somewhere that orcs are dominated by their religious affiliation, and that orc groups of different religious affiliation will almost always fight upon contact. Whereas orcs of the same religious affiliation will be much more inclined to peaceful negotiation, even if from different political entities. I believe this comes from Roger Moore's excellent articles about the humanoid races that appeared in Dragon #62 and #63, IIRC. Definately those are sources worth checking out in relation to this topic.

In my campaign, and I propose for this project, an orc tribe is a political designation, with a political chief or leader. Each orc "lair" is a sub-tribe, and some of them are organized into alliegence to a warlord or greater tribal leader. These groups have local names and there exist very many.

However, each orc tribe/lair is dominated by shamans of one orcish god, only. Thus, a single clan, or religious affiliation, controls each tribe, simply because orcs of different religious tradition will kill each other given the chance. The only orcs in a lair not of the dominant clan would be prisoners, slaves, captured brides, etc. They would not be allowed to practice their faith. Obviously orcs would not have the prohibition on within-clan marriages.

Thus, two orc tribes of the same clan (patron diety) would be likely to ally even if they were ruled by different overlords, while two orc tribes of different clans would almost always fight, and even the most skilled or powerful warlord would be hard pressed to maintain an empire encorporating tribes of different clans. Iuz most likely has to see that the clans he rules have different geographical deployments. This is what I think Gygax meant in the MM when he wrote "If orcs from one of the /clans/ are encountered in an area, it is likely that all other orcs nearby will also be from this same /clan/." (p.76). Although he used the word tribe, not clan, I think his meaning more properly matches the word clan.

And, as has been previously mentioned on this thread, the list of "tribe" names (should be clan names) given in MM is meant to match the various orcish dieties. This list should be more or less exhaustive for the Flaneass, as the orcish dieties worshipped are few and universal. A list of tribes for the Flaneass would be huge and constantly changing, as political affiliation is a more ephemeral, local, matter.

My interpretation would be

Vile Rune = Luthic, goddess of caves, healing, females (the rune is a rune of protection and fertility placed at cave entrances and birthing chambers)

Death Moon = Shargass, God of night, theives (Death moon is the New Moon under which raids are better conducted)

Broken Bone = Bahgtru, god of strength and unarmed combat
(bone broken from being smashed in a fight)

Evil Eye = Gruumsh, Great God of orcs (one-eyed)

Leprous Hand = Yurtrus, god of death and plague

Dripping Blade = Ilneval, god of warriors and battle
(blade dripping with blood of enemies)

I would propose that the Bloody Head and Rotting Eye belong to other orc dieties not detailed in Unearthed Arcana. Possibly, one or both of them might be minor clans whose shamans actually worship Iuz as a diety.

Kirt
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