Cebrion, you address many good, key points (once again).
Your take that magic is 'mercurial' was something not missed on by my main player; on that account you and he are of like mind. I, however, am a man who enjoys continuity, the reason for our (his and mine) joint, often opposing, debates. It is true that magical effects don't have consistency (esp. with regard to rolling damage)...the reason why I applied some 'house rules' to streamline that (maybe that will be my next post!).
At any rate, in perusing the spell description of Dispel Magic, it does state that any and all magical effects within the area of effect should be taken into account:
"Each effect or potion in the spell's area is checked to determine if it is dispelled. The caster can always dispel his own magic..."
However, as I read that, I don't see (in black and white, at least, but you know how I am one to 'read between the lines') where you must roll independently for each separate effect. Hence, my stance why I make one blanket roll for all effects. Besides making the dispellation of effects uniform (if you successfully dispel a 5th lvl effect, then you subsquently dispel those of lvls 1-4, as well, but not those of 6+), it has the nice side effect of the DM not having to make dozens upon dozens of rolls, too (if numerous spell effects or potions are present in the area of effect). Just my take and perspective, and it's worked for me so far.
(sidenote: does this description mean that a caster automatically Dispels his/her own effects, OR has the chance, OR the option???)
Now, on to your other (good) point about the Etherealness spell, and how the Manual of the Planes says it takes a full round to enter the Border Ethereal, or to be removed from it to the Prime. The casting time of the spell is 1, meaning the spell itself takes but a single segment to cast, but I still am inclined to think that it takes a full round for the "etherealizing" person(s) to fully enter that Plane. Here's my rationale: that tome was written at the time of PH (1e) when Plane Shifting was the only way, by spell, to enter. It has a casting time of 8. According to Manual, it takes a full round to enter or to exit. I would think that the 3rd lvl spell, Etherealness, would have the same ruling, too. The main difference between those two spells (besides power lvl, number of characters affected, duration, and component) is the casting time, but not the time it takes to enter/exit the Border Ethereal. Otherwise, I don't understand why the Manual of the Planes states clearly that it takes a full round to enter/exit the Border Ethereal if the Plane Shift spell has a casting time of 8.
Furthermore, does this mean that if the Dispel Magic is successful, does the effect IMMEDIATELY remove them back to the Prime, or does that, too, take a full round? So many questions!!! aaahhhh....
But, you make the mention about when the Dispel is cast. If it takes a full round to enter/exit the BE, in what Plane are you considered to be midway? Perhaps a bit of both? More on the plane upon which you are first casting the spell?
To answer your inquiry, the spell-caster in question cast the Dispel Magic as the party was entering the Border Ethereal, or shortly afterwards. I have to recollect the initiative rolls. If you rule that it take but a single segment to enter, the Dispel Magic in question is cast well afterwards. If not, I think the Dispel takes effect at the end of the transition round, or shortly thereafter.
Thanks again, Cebrion, for your diligence in cross-referencing so many tomes. I feel like an academician mage...roll my proficiency skill at "Research". Not sure how high it is, though! You, however, are quickly going to replace Argon as my 'resident Sage' at this rate! Perhaps he is thankful for this...
At any rate, in perusing the spell description of Dispel Magic, it does state that any and all magical effects within the area of effect should be taken into account:
"Each effect or potion in the spell's area is checked to determine if it is dispelled. The caster can always dispel his own magic..."
However, as I read that, I don't see (in black and white, at least, but you know how I am one to 'read between the lines') where you must roll independently for each separate effect. Hence, my stance why I make one blanket roll for all effects. Besides making the dispellation of effects uniform (if you successfully dispel a 5th lvl effect, then you subsequently dispel those of lvls 1-4, as well, but not those of 6+), it has the nice side effect of the DM not having to make dozens upon dozens of rolls, too (if numerous spell effects or potions are present in the area of effect). Just my take and perspective, and it's worked for me so far.
So far as rolling goes, the choice is really yours. Though I bet there is a Sage Advice on this too that I don't remember all that well, I prefer to think of it similar to items saving throws. You don't roll once and then compare that roll to every object to to see what items survive. You roll for every single item, one at a time; same for dispel magic and spells. Roll for every spell/potion. It goes by quickly enough, as there are seldom dozens and dozen of spells in effect at one time(though there maybe quite few potions in the area; note that potions in bags of holding and similar things are safe, as they are in a dimensional space). So, have fun rolling your funny-shaped dice a lot, and enjoy the anticipation/dread of the players. Or not. I am pretty sure we have done it both ways in the past, though I am not sure if that was different from 1E to 2E, or different within the same game edition(the latter isn't very likely, as we like consistency in doing things).
Lanthorn wrote:
(sidenote: does this description mean that a caster automatically Dispels his/her own effects, OR has the chance, OR the option???)
There is only one option. The caster can choose what spells of their own that they *want* to automatically dispel, but as dispel magic is not discriminate as to what it affects in the area, the caster has to roll even for his own spells in the area of effect that they do want to remain in play. Yes, dispel magic potentially will kill every single spell effect in the area of effect, including the caster's, whether the caster wants it to or not.
Lanthorn wrote:
Now, on to your other (good) point about the Etherealness spell, and how the Manual of the Planes says it takes a full round to enter the Border Ethereal, or to be removed from it to the Prime.
The casting time of the spell is 1, meaning the spell itself takes but a single segment to cast, but I still am inclined to think that it takes a full round for the "etherealizing" person(s) to fully enter that Plane. Here's my rationale: that tome was written at the time of PH (1e) when Plane Shifting was the only way, by spell, to enter. It has a casting time of 8. According to Manual, it takes a full round to enter or to exit. I would think that the 3rd lvl spell, Etherealness, would have the same ruling, too. The main difference between those two spells (besides power lvl, number of characters affected, duration, and component) is the casting time, but not the time it takes to enter/exit the Border Ethereal. Otherwise, I don't understand why the Manual of the Planes states clearly that it takes a full round to enter/exit the Border Ethereal if the Plane Shift spell has a casting time of 8.
Furthermore, does this mean that if the Dispel Magic is successful, does the effect IMMEDIATELY remove them back to the Prime, or does that, too, take a full round? So many questions!!! aaahhhh....
The Manual of the Planes actually addresses this by using the Phase spider example in that section, and the Planscape book mentions the 1 round transition too(it just doesn't use the phase spider example). By the phase spider example, transitioning moves them back immediately, such that they can be attacked/fully affected by anything that same round, so long as it happens after the dispel magic spell is cast. Similar, the transitioning PCs could also attack things on the Prime during the round that the dispel magic is cast, so long as they do so after the spell affected them. If they try and do anything beforehand, then it must be an attack/effect that extends into the Border Ethereal.
Lanthorn wrote:
But, you make the mention about when the Dispel is cast. If it takes a full round to enter/exit the BE, in what Plane are you considered to be midway? Perhaps a bit of both? More on the plane upon which you are first casting the spell?
To answer your inquiry, the spell-caster in question cast the Dispel Magic as the party was entering the Border Ethereal, or shortly afterwards. I have to recollect the initiative rolls. If you rule that it take but a single segment to enter, the Dispel Magic in question is cast well afterwards. If not, I think the Dispel takes effect at the end of the transition round, or shortly thereafter.
The phase spider example in the Manual of the Planes shows that the phase spider not only transitions in one round, but attacks in that same round, and then, in the following round(in 1E; in 2E they phase in-attack-phase out too if they wind Initiative by 4 or more), may become ethereal again(and not be attacked, except by effects that extend into the Ethereal, if it has initiative and can activate its etherealness ability before being attacked). The example tells us that the the plane being transitioned to is the plane that can be affected during the round of transition: transition + attack, in one round, in the plane transitioned to. Accordingly, if a dispel magic spell is cast on a target that has already activated its etherealness(by whatever means) and is fading into the Ethereal, they are considered to be in the Ethereal so far as attacks/effects are concerned, and so they will only be wrenched back to the Prime and not have all of their magical effects be subject to the dispel magic spell. It will come down to Initiative and what happens first(or simultaneously)- the phasing in, or the casting of the spell.
Took a while to get to the full development of what will happen, as the references are scattered and not really explained anywhere, but everywhere. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Last edited by Cebrion on Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:50 pm; edited 3 times in total
Many thanks for taking the time to research and offer your insights on all my inquiries. You are gracious to answer my questions point-by-point. Now I have some food for thought tomorrow night when we pick up where we left off. I need to alter a few things first, some of them in favor of the party, some of them not. Oh, well, you can't have it all, right? Maybe, just maybe, some of the characters will survive the impending Fireball, Slow, and particularly nasty Scourge spells to follow in the wake of the (successful) Dispel.
I look forward to your input on my future posts, and will endeavor to place them correctly. Apologies in advance if I err.
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