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    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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    From: So. Cal

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    Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:14 am  

    Fixed a bunch of my typos. Oh no, I never make typos. Laughing

    Mortellan will handle much of the front page updates, though a few others likely will too.
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    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 12, 2001
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    From: Ithaca, New York

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    Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:32 pm  

    I am not in favor of more topics/sections in the forums. I primarily read General Discussion, and I'm not going to go delving into splintered subsectional discussions. Talk about the "tombs". Realistically, most of the sections that seem to be proposed here would be lucky to get 10 posts a month.

    If you have an article submission under development, there are already a slew of forums to post it under. If it's rule-specific, there are 6 rule-oriented forums. There's the Reader's Workshop, and as always, General Discussion.

    Creating a siloed thread to hold NPC submissions from multiple authors is going to cause confusion (what if it's an NPC in a magic item article? What if I start a different thread?) Anna's thread works because it's Anna's stuff.

    As far as a "proposed article" list -- the Oerth Journal has had one for about 15 years now, and no one has ever written an article from it. Make of that what you will.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 12, 2001
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    Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:37 pm  

    O my sweet baguettes. I see the new Forty-Thousand Forums protocol has already gone into effect. For the love of Lendor, please move those to the bottom so I don't have to scroll down 3 pages to see the OJ forum?

    Thanks
    Paladin

    Joined: Sep 07, 2011
    Posts: 831
    From: Houston Texas

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    Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:04 pm  

    I think having the ability to "double click" the header and collapse or expand the listing is sufficient to provide access to all listings.
    My two pp.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 12, 2001
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    Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:09 pm  

    Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
    I think having the ability to "double click" the header and collapse or expand the listing is sufficient to provide access to all listings.
    My two pp.


    Oh look, clicking on a section header closes -everything- (which means if I want to see two sections they have to take turns), and it resets every time I exit the forums (which means it actually becomes even more annoying!) Hurrah!

    Not.

    I get the whole LG experiment. I even agree with it (as an experiment). But it should be below the established forums, or made more discrete.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 10, 2003
    Posts: 1234
    From: New Jersey

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    Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:14 pm  

    It seems someone loves the new forums. I think the new forums for the most part are to encourage LGG fans to chime in here. I don't really see a big issue with the scrolling down a little further for some of the forums. I think we should see where things end up depending on traffic.

    Later

    Argon
    GreySage

    Joined: Jul 26, 2010
    Posts: 2495
    From: LG Dyvers

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    Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:34 pm  

    I also thought that the extra scrolling was inconvenient at first, but then I realized that most of the other, larger, forums for other hobbies I frequent have even more subforums listed on their main forums page and require that I scroll quite a bit. I just wasn't used to having to do it on this particular site, so it seemed odd. Now, I don't mind it at all.

    Additionally, like Argon, I'm excited about the possibilities of these new regional forums. I really want to see what people will offer and hope that it will make it much easier to find information I need/want from specific regions.

    SirXaris
    Paladin

    Joined: Sep 07, 2011
    Posts: 831
    From: Houston Texas

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    Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:32 pm  

    Nellisir wrote:

    Oh look, clicking on a section header closes -everything- (which means if I want to see two sections they have to take turns), and it resets every time I exit the forums (which means it actually becomes even more annoying!) Hurrah!

    Not.

    Nellisir
    Your might toss your two coppers here http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=4877
    if the strain of scrolling becomes too much to bear.
    Wink
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 12, 2001
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    Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:02 am  

    Quote:
    Nellisir
    Your might toss your two coppers here http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=4877
    if the strain of scrolling becomes too much to bear.
    Wink

    Don't worry Galen, I'm not going to darken your door with my noncornformist opinion. I realize my thoughts, dissenting from yours as they do, are unwelcome in this thread, and I appreciate your snarky little italics.

    I just skimmed down that folder list, btw, glad to see so many forums taking off! Hope this wild growth continues![/i]
    GreySage

    Joined: Jul 26, 2010
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    Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:53 am  

    Come off it fellas. We're all friends here. There's no call for making light of someone else's opinion and there's no call for getting defensive either.

    I was weak and posted my last new topic in the General Discussion forum when I should have posted it in the Keoland Forum. I was afraid it wouldn't get many responses there and needed the answer to my question quickly. As I said, that was weak of me and I regret making that decision. I'm excitedly looking forward to seeing lots of region/national information being posted in places where it can be easily found. I have no problem with giving these new forums a chance to get started.

    Nellisir's concerns are valid, so no one should be making any derogatory statements about them (though disagreement is fine). At the same time, we're all grown-ups (even the young pup, Rumek Razz ) and don't need to lash out disrespectfully if we feel we've been treated with less respect than we're due.

    SirXaris
    Paladin

    Joined: Sep 07, 2011
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    From: Houston Texas

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    Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:20 pm  

    Nellisir wrote:

    Don't worry Galen, I'm not going to darken your door with my noncornformist opinion. glad to see so many forums taking off! Hope this wild growth continues![/i]

    Humm as for darkening my door that may prove difficult, as I always seem to tend toward dark hallways where seldom a shadow be cast. Evil Grin
    I do however, think you misunderstand, my suggestion at a "double click" and then a redirect thread were to acknowledge your concerns; offer a solution; and then prose a place where your "nonconformity" could be heard by those that could make such a change.
    To better understand your position, I have since read the entire OJ thread, and found it insightful, and informational. I would also make mention notice of your presence there well back to its beginning "(going back into the late volume I issues when Nellisir and Rick LaRue were the principal editors of the OJ)". It was also noted, sporadically in that thread, of a separate webpage dedicated to OJ (guess that died on the vine? Maybe better revisited here since this is a thread on site changes?)
    However, the original intent of this thread is not to promote one idea ( ie the meta-regions), but to round-table all. I simply was trying to redirect the thread back toward its original purpose and acknowledge your "nonconformity" vote with a solution.
    Personally, I like nonconformity.. (as long as its fact based) it brings out for better debate, and innovation.

    cebrion wrote:

    Enough of that though. On to more ideas!

    In closing, I will leave a candle lit in hopes you will continue to cast a shadow my way dear Nellisir. Wink
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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    From: So. Cal

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    Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:18 am  

    Nellisir wrote:
    I get the whole LG experiment. I even agree with it (as an experiment). But it should be below the established forums, or made more discrete.

    I agree. Apparently phpBB does have a Subforum feature, but it has not been implemented on Canonfire! Once Gary gets it implemented, whenever that will be, the LG forums will condense into a single forum main page "Living Greyhawk Forums" header, which when clicked upon will bring one to the fully expanded Meta-regions sections. I may do this with the rules-based forums too, as that will make the main forum page sections more viewable; maybe a few other categories too. Not sure yet, but having to scroll down a bit or left-click once don't exactly require much effort. As you say though, things shouldn't be buried in too many layers.
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    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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    From: South Africa, Cape Town

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    Sun Feb 26, 2012 11:17 am  

    I feel like I am wasting my time posting my links or articles in the campaign journal section. I actuall have STOPPED posting in that section.

    This whole META REGION forum section is making it that the forums below it are getting ignored, I dont even bother to scroll down to view them and I am running a 24" monitor. So I can tell you that someone with anything smaller that a 20" wont be either.

    Create another website for the META REGIONS or better yet just use the WIKI and have one subforum for it.
    GreySage

    Joined: Jul 26, 2010
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    From: LG Dyvers

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    Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:16 pm  

    Um, DH?

    From the post right above yours. Wink

    Cebrion wrote:
    I agree. Apparently phpBB does have a Subforum feature, but it has not been implemented on Canonfire! Once Gary gets it implemented, whenever that will be, the LG forums will condense into a single forum main page "Living Greyhawk Forums" header, which when clicked upon will bring one to the fully expanded Meta-regions sections...


    SirXaris
    Paladin

    Joined: Sep 07, 2011
    Posts: 831
    From: Houston Texas

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    Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:02 pm  

    DarkHerald wrote:
    or better yet just use the WIKI and have one subforum for it.

    that's an interesting angle.. but wouldn't it require everyone having write access to the wiki? as it is set up? Doesn't everyone have to specifically have to request access to do that? In a forum setting that may be counter productive. Though, if in the Wiki it would be a great cross-reference...
    But admittedly I'm am ignorant as to how the wiki is maintained.... as I generally use it only as a reference tool.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 10, 2003
    Posts: 1234
    From: New Jersey

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    Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:08 pm  

    Yeah DH,

    But you also have an awesome blog so I can still get my campaign update fix that way as well. I would agree after a few weeks the LG forums do require a lot of extra scrolling. Luckily there is a fix for that. So maybe some time soon this will be a thing of the past and the LG forums will be condensed more so they don't make scrolling down such a bothersome task.

    I was actual wondering if my Bissel campaign updates should be moved to the LG Bissel forum. Not that I'm using all the information contained from the LG Bissel triads, just I wanted to make it seem like there was some Bissel info in there. It looks real empty.

    Hopefully we can get some ex triad members to start posting in these forums. Then maybe they won't seem like a chore when scrolling past them.

    Later

    Argon
    Paladin

    Joined: Sep 07, 2011
    Posts: 831
    From: Houston Texas

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    Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:39 am  

    * Lengthy Rhetorical*
    Argon wrote:

    Hopefully we can get some ex triad members to start posting in these forums.

    @ All, but based on Argon's query
    Is there a place / or method that that could be "done" or do we wait and hope that they "just happen along and find CF and those areas?
    Also, as many are less than pleased with the current arrangement, I am reluctant to bring up that the "lists" are not complete. I would think there would also be sub-categories in the appropriate regions for :
    Sterrich (unless id as grouped with Geoff, Keoland, or The Yeomary)
    Wild Coast- Pomarj, Celene
    The Wilderness- Amedio, Sea of Dust, Black Ice
    The Barbarian Hordes- Tiger/ Wolf Nomads, Ice/Frost/Snow barbarians
    There are other examples, but as I seem to be the only one with the "aye vote" I am reluctant to suggest adding to a list that many feel is already too long.
    In debated defense of it however, I personally don't see that scrolling down is a show stopper. There are MANY other sites that one has to scroll further or go SEVERAL layers deep to find anything. And not to take away anything from the threads below "the List", is it not the purpose of the "forums section" to debate, round-table and grow ideas, in mass? I would think that "we" would wish to supply the masses (those that may not frequent the site as often as "members") to be able to find useful data quickly based on their own campaign flavors. And by finding such, they in fact become "members" (just as I did) and even become Staff (as many of you now are) because they have found a useful site they wish to become "henchmen" with.
    The threads below "the list", while very useful, are not the primary source of traffic nor contribution from the masses. There are FAR more Posts and even GREATER reader review from the combination of General, Rules, & now Region than OJ, Online & Admin.
    Now if it is the intent to "build the Ezine" as the primary piece, then I am sorry as I miss understood the "big picture goal". As I tend to be a very "left brained" engineer I always think with the end in mind and work back from that. My position has always been to make the most complete "one stop shopping" for all things greyhawk since it has been orphaned by those who "own" it.

    SO I close with this.
    All of you, (Gary, Cebrion, MS, Argon, DH, Nellisir, Rasgon, and I'm certain others that elude me this late hour) are our Circle of 8 or Conclave of Wizards & Knights (as you will) The most we the masses can do is supply and support.
    Though Cebrion acted on the execution, it was (IMO) my comments that he acted on.
    I read in much of your collective OJ postings how you can't create a viable monthly or quarterly component due to lack of resources and or participation. (which IMO is regrettable, because it is great work and would be improved if it could find stable ground in regular timing issuance)
    By creating a more complete "raw material source", via the forums, does that not create a better well to drink from? Is it not the best way, to recruit more support, by having a deeper well to draw from?
    And with that I yield to the faith and trust we the mass bestow to you the honored Circle.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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    From: South Africa, Cape Town

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    Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:05 am  

    Don’t get me wrong I think that having the META REGION AREA is needed, as whole I think that the information stored on CANONFIRE needs to be more structured.

    BUT I do think that a FORUM structure is the wrong approach I believe that a WIKI is better suited option.

    What I would propose is two WIKI's one that few have access to so that order is maintained and a semblance of order is maintained WRT to layout, grammar, spelling etc.

    Then we have a secondary WIKI where everyone that wishes to contribute to has access via his on logon details.

    Then maybe a SharePoint server would maybe be a better solution where it would track the user and changes made, that is something I could setup and host of one of my won servers if required.

    There are multitude of different options that can be used. Google Sites, Google Documents (shared) It is matter of planning and taking the right approach going forward.

    I would also suggest that Canonfire Website be backed up to an offsite location or replicated to another server or ghosted. These is crucial to circumvent loss of data should the site corrupt or be lost.

    Again I have the means to do this, as I am sure Gary has.
    Paladin

    Joined: Sep 07, 2011
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    Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:56 pm  

    DarkHerald wrote:

    BUT I do think that a FORUM structure is the wrong approach I believe that a WIKI is better suited option.

    Humm I can see the logic on one hand yet on the other a forum is the closest thing you could have for a symbiotic discussion short of an IM or Chat situation (such as Greytalk). So I can see the benifits and pitfalls of both. Like you it is a question of structure and overall "business model goals" that we hope to achieve.
    DarkHerald wrote:

    What I would propose is two WIKI's one that few have access to so that order is maintained and a semblance of order is maintained WRT to layout, grammar, spelling etc. Then we have a secondary WIKI where everyone that wishes to contribute to has access via his on logon details.
    Interesting, but as I am more old school (bulletin board hehe) what are the security risks and pitfalls to protect everyone's hard work and effort? I don't mind the EXTRA step of having to enter Oerth if that is what it takes to keep the site secure, no more than I mind to scroll a bit if that provides a way to separate the regions into more user accessible elements based on a campaign flavor.
    DarkHerald wrote:

    Then maybe a SharePoint server would maybe be a better solution where it would track the user and changes made, that is something I could setup and host of one of my won servers if required.
    There are multitude of different options that can be used. Google Sites, Google Documents (shared) It is matter of planning and taking the right approach going forward.

    True and good ideas all. But would that bring the site "down for a transition? or to mirror? Personally I'm not well versed enough to know the "behind the scenes" elements that are in place to create the "window dressings" we now have. As I have read here, seems there are limits to the depth of thread and Big C and Gary are at work to make even other options. I suppose time would tell, but you bring to light a valid point as to maybe the "Conclave" should take an accountancy of resources available / needed to grow CF/Greyhawk? I probably think it may be over stepping my bounds to get into "conclave" decision processes. But as mentioned in other threads.. that is just my "orifice talking" hehe
    DarkHerald wrote:

    I would also suggest that Canonfire Website be backed up to an offsite location or replicated to another server or ghosted. These is crucial to circumvent loss of data should the site corrupt or be lost.
    Again I have the means to do this, as I am sure Gary has.

    I have often wondered on this part, as I have extensively researched elements for my own revived campaign. I have found numerous site links elsewhere (and mentioned here), of good reference material, only to find it lost to the abyss, as the link is no longer viable and the information lost. I would be despaired, if to awake one day to find the shortcut to CF, and the site no longer existed.. Would be a great well run dry.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 29, 2006
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    From: Dantredun, MN

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    Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:09 am  

    The new regional forums are dreadful. It reminds me of the old Pied Piper board, with its bajillion forums and no discussion. I really like the idea of making a home for LG and encouraging discussion, but sifting through dozens of forums to see if someone posted something interesting today sucks.

    We're hardly bursting with discussion as it is and certainly not enough to warrant thirty-three new forums. Our main WoG forum only had/has a handful of threads being discussed on any given day and for years it was very convenient to go see all of the hot topics with one click.

    Dividing GH into a multitude of regions worked for LG because they had thousands of gamers and a corporate sponsor! Applying its model to a forum with a hundred regulars is ridiculous.

    Something should be done for LG, maybe a wiki, but the new forums are a verschlimmbesserung - an improvement for the worse. A subforum would help organize the current mess, but won't fix the problem.
    Paladin

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    Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:01 pm  

    vestcoat wrote:

    Something should be done for LG, maybe a wiki, but the new forums are a verschlimmbesserung - an improvement for the worse. A subforum would help organize the current mess, but won't fix the problem.

    Alle Sachen können verbessert werden.......(I like the German touch Vestcoat .. are you a Perrinlander in disguise?)Wink
    I don't see a "mess" but actually the first step in "organizing" as you put it.. The "mess" was having to comb through hundreds if not thousands of threads of discussion, posts, etc. to find elements that would pertain to the part of the GH World you wish to find. I don't know how many times I have heard... "I know there is a thread discussing this somewhere". This seems a reasonable first step. I would compare it to "why" don't we just have one "rules forum" and sort through that which we need to fill a question around 2e or 4e game rule interpretations for instance?
    All of this debate would seem to say, What is the End Goal ?
    >If it is to be a repository of LG glorydays and treasured info, then Certainly a Wiki would be better served...
    >If it is to be a discussion on where those regions could move forward past canon and published works (as I am aware there is not much past say 585-591) but in line with the theme of the past, then IMO that requires discussion. And is that not the definition of "forum"?
    But even this round-tabled debate serves us all.
    And I thank your position and input.
    May it guide those with the "purple" power. (or is it red now... seems like I read that somewhere)hehe
    Paladin

    Joined: Sep 07, 2011
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    Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:16 pm  

    vestcoat wrote:
    but sifting through dozens of forums to see if someone posted something interesting today sucks.

    As this was Originally intended as a "new ideas" thread that has developed into a good debate on future directions of structure, I would divert slightly to this....
    Meant to chyme in on this on the last, But vestcoat does bring a good idea to light.
    Is it possible to have a link that would list all the current posts over a range?
    Then the user could set a range to a day or two or week (could see where a search of unlimited ends would overwhelm the search criteria).
    Right now I utilize a search based on my own posts, and other favorite authors Wink but the new or less frequent I have to glean via the New field along the side of the forums lists.
    The your posts & unanswered kinda do this but not if the thread has replied elements. (it seems)
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 10, 2003
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    Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:27 pm  

    DLG,

    Be careful you might lose your Paladin status! Laughing I understand the frustration of all the extra scrolling, but I think we need some more time before we doom the new forums. I would say if you have any questions related to LG post them in the proper forum. ie: What was King Belvor first name in LG and who was his father?

    Later

    Argon
    Paladin

    Joined: Sep 07, 2011
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    Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:23 am  

    Argon wrote:
    DLG,
    Be careful you might lose your Paladin status! Laughing

    Now what kind of Paladin would I be if I were in fear of traveling where angel's fear to tread? Wink Besides, as they say in Alagaesia "One part brave, Three parts fool". Happy
    As my English professor always had said, I loved a good debate too much. I hope to kindle such a fire that all might see and be warmed. And one only gets a good fire by stirring the embers to flame. Evil Grin
    Paladin

    Joined: Sep 07, 2011
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    Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:56 am  

    It has come to my attention (because of recently trying to do it) that there is no means to "upload" a file only to link one to a web location. How difficult is it to create a "spot" to capture uploaded materials for review and eventual posting in say the "downloads" shortcut on the header?
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