Signup
Welcome to... Canonfire! World of GreyhawK
One of the founders of our hobby and one of the most unsung contributors to Dungeons & Dragons, Len Lakofka has passed away at the age of 76.
Along with the many adventures, classes, spells, and rules he created,
Len was also father of the Suel in Greyhawk, designer of their gods, and namesake of the Lendore Isles.
The value of his work goes without saying, but his presence will be sorely missed. The adventures of Leomund go on.
Len Lakofka 1944-2020
[DISCUSS]
Features
Touring the Flanaess
Cities of
Oerth
Deadly Denizens
Greyhawk Wiki
#greytalk
JOIN THE CHAT
ON DISCORD
    Canonfire :: View topic - Empire of Lynn, Tharquish Empire, etc.
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    Empire of Lynn, Tharquish Empire, etc. [ 1, 2  Next]
    Author Message
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:33 pm  
    Empire of Lynn, Tharquish Empire, etc.

    Hey there, long time Greyhawk fan, first time Canonfire poster.

    I saw this quote from Gygax from 2005: http://www.enworld.org/forum/archive-threads/104817-gary-gygax-q-part-vii-13.html#post2001283

    specifically

    Quote:
    Quote:
    1. You have played with François Marcela Froideval, right ? Is it true that L'Empire de Lynn is located on Oerth ?

    Yes, and yes. His area of Oerth was located to the west, and it included the island of Mephreton.


    So I did some research on Froideval, and his Black Moon Chronicles comics. Not only do they have the Empire of Lynn (called "Lhynn" in the comics), but the Tharque Empire (a Greco-Roman style empire), Ishtar, Erypt (obvious ancient Egypt parallel and home to the wizard Methraton), and even a "Red Kingdom" of dwarves who live in a valley where the rocks are stained blood red. One of the characters in the comic is Murata, a wandering ronin from the far east--I haven't been able to confirm this for certain, but it's likely his homeland is referred to as Nippon in the comics.

    It's a bit hard to get details, as it's all in french and has never been translated into english, but I know some people who are fluent in both langauges and one of them even works professionally as a translater. As soon as he's got enough free time he said he'll translate a role-playing game adaptation I found on the web. Would anyone be interested in it?
    Forum Moderator

    Joined: Feb 26, 2004
    Posts: 2569
    From: Ullinois

    Send private message
    Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:58 pm  

    Wow. I mean, wow. This puts a whole new spin on those map locations for me.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3772
    From: So. Cal

    Send private message
    Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:05 am  

    Good post Bluebomber4evr. Thanks for un-lurking. Happy
    _________________
    - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:47 am  

    Thanks guys Smile

    Here's some of the sites I used to collect information:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Moon_Chronicles
    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlackMoonChronicles
    http://www.blackmoon-online.com/en/index.php

    The official site for the comics allows you to view the first 5 pages or so of each graphic novel: http://www.dargaud.com/blog/chroniques-de-la-lune-noire/

    This is the rpg adaptation I was talking about (it's in french):
    http://matrice.johndoe-rpg.org/viewtopic.php?t=30
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 21, 2003
    Posts: 538
    From: Germany

    Send private message
    Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:41 am  

    Wow indeed. Good research. I wonder if the developers of the new Chainmail setting were aware of these? It does seem a bit similar with the factions and war theme.

    wikipedia wrote:
    The series, whose first episode was published in the late 80's, was also translated into German, Italian, Danish, Dutch and English.


    Aha. Let's buy some comic books...

    Oh and do a google image search on "Chroniques de la Lune Noire comic". Looks very nice. The guy in the middle looks familiar:


    Last edited by Thanael on Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:59 am; edited 1 time in total
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3772
    From: So. Cal

    Send private message
    Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:03 am  

    Au Français? Oh mon dieu! Quelle horreur!

    Well, that's the extent of my high school French. Laughing Okay, maybe I remember a bit more than that, but not much. I should be able to bash my way through most of it using a translator(apologies to the French language Laughing). Thanks for the links. Some great stuff there. Cool
    _________________
    - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
    GreySage

    Joined: Jul 26, 2010
    Posts: 2521
    From: LG Dyvers

    Send private message
    Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:43 am  

    Nice contribution to the site, BlueBomber4evr! Smile

    I don't speak any French that hasn't been co-opted by the English language, but I'd love to see an English translation of that comic.

    SirXaris
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Oct 07, 2008
    Posts: 377


    Send private message
    Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:01 am  
    Map!

    I don't read French either (my Spanish helps a bit), but I did a search for Chroniques de la Lune Noire and found:

    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:14 am  

    SirXaris wrote:
    Nice contribution to the site, BlueBomber4evr! Smile

    I don't speak any French that hasn't been co-opted by the English language, but I'd love to see an English translation of that comic.

    SirXaris
    I'd like to see it too, but as I understand it only the first 5 or so graphic novels (out of 14 total) were translated into English and they've been out of print for decades. Sad

    My friend has enough spare time to translate that rpg adaptation I linked to above, but I'd feel bad asking to translate 14 100+ page graphic novels...and Amazon charges upwards of $35 for each volume, so it'd be a tad pricy as well. Neutral

    @Raymond: yes, I've seen that map, too. It's from the Black Moon Chronicles MMO. It has an English version and I think it might even be free to play. I think it might be "compacted" for the sake of the video game, but it's still a handy reference for the region, and it's the only map I've been able to find.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Oct 07, 2008
    Posts: 377


    Send private message
    Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:50 am  
    Oerth

    It looks a lot like westen Oerth to me.
    Forum Moderator

    Joined: Feb 26, 2004
    Posts: 2569
    From: Ullinois

    Send private message
    Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:59 am  

    NYARGH!
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: May 22, 2006
    Posts: 64
    From: Here

    Send private message
    Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:39 am  

    So that's where that "Erypt" name comes from... Mad
    _________________
    The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd; indeed, in view of the silliness of the majority of mankind, a wide-spread belief is more likely to be foolish than sensible. - Bertrand Russell
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 12, 2005
    Posts: 266


    Send private message
    Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:45 am  
    Re: Oerth

    Raymond wrote:
    It looks a lot like westen Oerth to me.


    Yep. That pretty much matches the Empire of Lynn area in the Dragon Annual #1 map. Good spot finding this.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 09, 2003
    Posts: 1240
    From: Clarksville, TN

    Send private message
    Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:16 pm  
    Re: Oerth

    Flint wrote:
    Raymond wrote:
    It looks a lot like westen Oerth to me.


    Yep. That pretty much matches the Empire of Lynn area in the Dragon Annual #1 map. Good spot finding this.


    -I'll fifth it.

    I'm surprised there isn't some sort of copyright issue with a comic book series using something that's was previously printed a while ago, tho'.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:46 pm  
    Re: Oerth

    jamesdglick wrote:
    Flint wrote:
    Raymond wrote:
    It looks a lot like westen Oerth to me.


    Yep. That pretty much matches the Empire of Lynn area in the Dragon Annual #1 map. Good spot finding this.


    -I'll fifth it.

    I'm surprised there isn't some sort of copyright issue with a comic book series using something that's was previously printed a while ago, tho'.
    I'm more suprised that there wasn't an issue the other way around. The Dragon Annual #1 map was the first published mention of the Empire of Lynn in D&D/Greyhawk and that was in 1996. Froideval's first Black Moon Chronicles graphic novel was published in 1989. He could have sued TSR but didn't.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 09, 2003
    Posts: 1240
    From: Clarksville, TN

    Send private message
    Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:51 pm  
    Re: Oerth

    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    jamesdglick wrote:
    Flint wrote:
    Raymond wrote:
    It looks a lot like westen Oerth to me.


    Yep. That pretty much matches the Empire of Lynn area in the Dragon Annual #1 map. Good spot finding this.


    -I'll fifth it.

    I'm surprised there isn't some sort of copyright issue with a comic book series using something that's was previously printed a while ago, tho'.
    I'm more suprised that there wasn't an issue the other way around. The Dragon Annual #1 map was the first published mention of the Empire of Lynn in D&D/Greyhawk and that was in 1996. Froideval's first Black Moon Chronicles graphic novel was published in 1989. He could have sued TSR but didn't.


    -Huh. Now that I think of it, if Froideval played with EGG, maybe he didn't care. Or maybe he welcomed it?
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3108
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:58 pm  

    I vaguely remember reading this on ENWorld a while ago (not in 2005), trying to find some information about it, failing, and giving up after five minutes. Anyway, great research, Blue Bomber.

    The names on the Dragon Annual map basically only appeared in one obscure Dragon article, so I wouldn't be surprised if the author never even knew that TSR had briefly used them. I know the Paizo editors occasionally name-dropped the Empire of Lynn, but it's spelled differently anyway.

    This does cast doubt on Gygax's claim that he had nothing to do with the Dragon Annual map, though.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 07, 2004
    Posts: 1830
    From: Mt. Smolderac

    Send private message
    Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:10 pm  

    So it's sounding to me like Skip Williams might have also played in Marcela-Froideval's campaign?
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 24, 2003
    Posts: 172
    From: British Columbia, Canada

    Send private message
    Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:19 am  

    Excellent research and a sweet score for the 'Hawk to boot. I have a player who is fascinated with the Dragon Annual map of Oerth who will just eat this up... He reads French fluently (originally from Quebec here in Canada). Doubt he could translate it all, since there are some serious divergences between Quebecois French and Parisian (a.k.a. European) French. On his behalf, thank you for the wonderful Needfest gift. Smile
    _________________
    <div>Braggi</div><div>Swain and Varlet at Large<br /></div>
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 10, 2003
    Posts: 1234
    From: New Jersey

    Send private message
    Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:51 am  

    Bluebomber4evr,

    Excellent research and a great post. I am one of many interested in expanding western oerik and will have to look through those books myself. It will give great insight on one of my projects as well.

    Thanks for the links


    P.S. When you get a chance you should post in the Welcome to Greyhawk forum and introduce yourself. Hope to see more of your posts on the boards.

    Later

    Argon
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 21, 2003
    Posts: 538
    From: Germany

    Send private message
    Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:17 pm  

    Well the german translation is readily and cheaply available, but searching for the english version I turn up almost nothing. Not sure what this product here is exactly but this link will probably interest all you english-only readers. (e-comic-book releases of parts 1 to 4 in english and 1 - 13 in french, not 100% sure about legality but appears legal...)

    Last edited by Thanael on Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:51 pm; edited 2 times in total
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 10, 2003
    Posts: 1234
    From: New Jersey

    Send private message
    Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:45 pm  

    Best I can figure from the text on the page displayed by Thanel the first panel says.

    The Hammer refuses me because I am not requiem.

    The second panel

    What's the difference? If the hammer refuses him he is not the person who can accomplish my malignant task.

    The final one

    If he is not with me, then he is against me.

    Not a 100% sure but this is as close as I can gather with the help of translation software.

    Later

    Argon
    CF Admin

    Joined: Jun 29, 2001
    Posts: 1393
    From: Wichita, KS, USA

    Send private message
    Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:32 pm  

    IIRC, Rob Kuntz wrote a "Dragonrider of Lynn" into Dungeon 124's "Chambers of Antiquities" Maure Castle level, as well.
    _________________
    Allan Grohe (grodog@gmail.com)
    http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:14 am  

    Thanks Braggi and Argon! Smile

    grodog wrote:
    IIRC, Rob Kuntz wrote a "Dragonrider of Lynn" into Dungeon 124's "Chambers of Antiquities" Maure Castle level, as well.
    You're right, he did! As far as I can tell it doesn't contradict anything, and the dragonmasters figure prominently in the Black Moon Chronicles, and are even on the cover of the second volume.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3108
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:34 am  

    And Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk had Mirrormasters of Lynn.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 13, 2001
    Posts: 443


    Send private message
    Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:39 am  

    Nice find!

    Comparing maps:

    Image link removed

    --- Canonfire! Staff


    http://a34.idata.over-blog.com/600x450/0/12/14/75/map-01.jpg

    It also looks like the "Elvanian Forest" roughly corresponds to the "Feyhin Forest."
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 21, 2003
    Posts: 538
    From: Germany

    Send private message
    Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:21 am  

    Umm... I wish i hadn't clicked the first link.

    You sure that's the right pic rob?
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 13, 2001
    Posts: 443


    Send private message
    Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:55 pm  

    Thanael wrote:
    Umm... I wish i hadn't clicked the first link.

    You sure that's the right pic rob?


    It works for me. What'd you come up with?
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:19 pm  

    clicking on that first link brings up a disgusting picture. whoever's hosting it doesn't want it hotlinked
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3108
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:51 pm  

    It brings up a picture of Tubgirl. You might want to find another source of the image, Rob.

    Were you trying to link to this?
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3772
    From: So. Cal

    Send private message
    Sun Jan 15, 2012 6:22 pm  

    Holy Incabulos! Be careful of your direct links for the reason Bluebomber4evr stated, folks. The link is gone now, but...



    I need to have that scrubbed out of my mind somehow.
    _________________
    - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
    GreySage

    Joined: Jul 26, 2010
    Posts: 2521
    From: LG Dyvers

    Send private message
    Sun Jan 15, 2012 6:45 pm  

    Cebrion wrote:
    I need to have that scrubbed out of my mind somehow.


    Perhaps Mystic-Scholar can whip up a mass Forget spell and post it here on Canonfire! for all victims of that link to access as needed. Cool

    SirXaris
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Oct 23, 2011
    Posts: 16
    From: Twin Cities

    Send private message
    Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:29 pm  

    This find opens up entire new horizons. I'm suddenly less interested in getting Chainmail research than I am in getting translations of this body of work.

    It also upends my opinion of that continental map of old, raising it up in esteem that's for sure.

    Wonder what Rob Kuntz has to say about it, and about what's in between Flanaess and Lynn/Lhynn!
    _________________
    My Greyhawk mapping project is being published at my website:http://admundfortgeographer.deviantart.com/
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:58 pm  

    Anondson wrote:
    This find opens up entire new horizons. I'm suddenly less interested in getting Chainmail research than I am in getting translations of this body of work.

    It also upends my opinion of that continental map of old, raising it up in esteem that's for sure.

    Wonder what Rob Kuntz has to say about it, and about what's in between Flanaess and Lynn/Lhynn

    For what it's worth, I tried to compose a map that incorporated all of this stuff in a sensible manner. I used a map of Oerth made be Nerik1 of the Spelljammer community and placed the names of nations myself:
    Quote:

    Quote:
    Map of the Oerth (drawn by Nerik1):

    https://goo.gl/photos/FY2rpf7D8q3V3H6J9

    Notes for the world map:

    designation The location of New Empyrea is a "best guess." New Empyrea is from Frank Mentzer's Aquaria campaign (originally published in modules R1 through R4, and later repackaged as I12 Egg of the Phoenix), and was originally set "5000 miles to the east of the Flanaess" according to the module R4 Doc's Island. However, the Solnor Ocean is only 3000 miles wide, and the only land in that direction is the other side of the Oerik continent. Aquaria was supposed to be on its own continent. Plus, the geography of the map in R4 does not match up with anything in Western Oerik. Additionally, R4 describes a frontier with a minimal human presence, which does not really match the vast, ancient empires of Western Oerik. The continent I placed it on is a better match for R4's map, and as it is not yet detailed in any published Greyhawk product, it seemed the best place for New Empyrea, though Fireland is another suitable location.

    designation The Empire of Lynn, Ishtar, Tharque Empire, Red Kingdom, Tribes of Enllaves, Barbarian Seameast are all from Francois Marcela-Froideval's Black Moon Chronicles comic books. Froideval's campaign was given an official home in Western Oerik by Gary Gygax. The locations ended up being official in a map of Oerth printed in Dragon Annual #1 in 1996.

    designation Khemit is also from the Black Moon Chronicles, but Froideval called it "Erypt" in his works (and it is called that on the Dragon Annual map). It is the home of the character Methraton and based on ancient Egypt. I (and most other Greyhawk fans) feel this is a little too "on the nose" for Greyhawk, so I used the name Khemit from the d20 version of Gary Gygax's Necropolis module. That module was originally written for the Mythus: Dangerous Journeys game, and its world Aerth, but according to the adventure Expedition to Castle Greyhawk, Aerth is one of several "parallel Oerths," so it could conceivably be called Khemit on Oerth as well.

    designation Thalos, Mordengard, the Free States, Ravilla, Drazen's Horde, Ahmut's Legion, and Naresh come from the short-lived Chainmail reboot from 2001 by Chris Pramas.

    designation The Baklien Khanates derive their name from the Chainmail reboot as well--they are described as mongol-like horsemen from the east.

    designation Shaofeng was called "Suhfang" in Gary Gygax's Gord the Rogue novels and "the Celestial Imperium" on the Dragon Annual map, but was named Shaofeng in Expedition to Castle Greyhawk. It is Greyhawk's version of China.

    designation Ryuujin was called "Nippon" on the Dragon Annual map. The name Ryuujin comes from Dragon #277. It is Greyhawk's version of Japan.

    designation Mur, Komal, and Risay are briefly described in Dungeon #136

    designation Telchuria is called "Hyperborea" on the Dragon Annual map and "Hyborea" in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer. It is called Telchuria in Dungeon #136.

    designation Zahind is a compromise name. It is called "Zindia" on the Dragon Annual map and "Jahind" in Gygax's Gord the Rogue novels. It is Greyhawk's version of India.

    designation "Darak Urtag" is a fan-name for the region called "Orcreich" on the Dragon Annual map.


    EDIT: clarified the source on Bakliens


    Last edited by Bluebomber4evr on Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:26 pm; edited 3 times in total
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3108
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:19 am  

    I think New Empyrea/Aquaria fits just fine in the Free States/Thalos area, personally. I was going to make it the same as Lynn, but if there's actually some detail on Lynn printed somewhere, it can go to the north. The Chainmail setting does provide some detail for the Free States and Thalos, but Aquaria isn't very big.

    Note that Frank Mentzer's Aquaria campaign was based, geographically, very closely on the Wilderlands campaign from Judge's Guild.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3772
    From: So. Cal

    Send private message
    Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:18 am  

    Quote:
    designation "Darak Urtag" is a fan-name for the region called "Orcreich" on the Dragon Annual map.

    ...and that fan would be Rick "Duicarthan" Miller. We went over that name during the process of him putting together the "Beyond the Flanaess" project pdf. I can't recall if I provided any input which ultimately resulted in that name or not(or changes to it), as it was years ago. I think a few others may have also been involved in ultimately settling on that name over the much loathed "Orcreich", but I just don't recall the precise details at this point. A few names were gone over, but "Darak Urtag" is what was settled on. Rick should remember.

    *I backed up that map image in the CF! database. Cool
    _________________
    - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -


    Last edited by Cebrion on Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:01 pm; edited 2 times in total
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Oct 07, 2008
    Posts: 377


    Send private message
    Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:59 am  
    Thanks!

    Bluebomber4evr, thanks for all those details on why you placed those names where you did. I dig it!
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:29 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    I think New Empyrea/Aquaria fits just fine in the Free States/Thalos area, personally. I was going to make it the same as Lynn, but if there's actually some detail on Lynn printed somewhere, it can go to the north. The Chainmail setting does provide some detail for the Free States and Thalos, but Aquaria isn't very big.

    Note that Frank Mentzer's Aquaria campaign was based, geographically, very closely on the Wilderlands campaign from Judge's Guild.
    Yeah, I thought about doing that too at first, but after reading up on Thalos in Dragon #287, the established histories of Thalos and Empyrea/Aquaria are just too different. The only thing they share in common are that they're populated by Oeridians, but that's not enough for me to make them the same. (for one, Thalos' Oeridians came to Thalos by land from the east, not by sea from the west).

    Cebrion wrote:
    Quote:
    designation "Darak Urtag" is a fan-name for the region called "Orcreich" on the Dragon Annual map.

    ...and that fan would be Rick "Duicarthan" Miller. We went over that name during the process of him putting together the "Beyond the Flanaess" project pdf. I can't recall if I provided input which ultimately resulted in that name or not(or changes to it), as it was years ago. I think a few others may have also been involved in ultimately settling on that name over the much loathed "Orcreich", but I just don't recall the precise details at this point. A few names were gone over, but "Darak Urtag" is what was settled on.

    *I backed up that map image in the CF! database. Wink
    Yeah, I know it was from someone here, the quote is from the Ravenloft-based Neverwinter Nights game I DM for--We allow, in traditional Ravenloft fashion, for people to make characters from other D&D settings to get swept up by Ravenloft's Mists, but we had noticed that many such "outlander" characters had lacked proper knowledge of the worlds they came from. So we decided to make special threads about each setting. I chose to do Greyhawk. Happy

    And that's cool that you backed it up in the database! Just make sure to give Nerik1 primary credit, he did the lion's share of work in drawing it. All I did is slap some names on it after the fact. Laughing
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3108
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:18 pm  

    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    Yeah, I thought about doing that too at first, but after reading up on Thalos in Dragon #287, the established histories of Thalos and Empyrea/Aquaria are just too different. The only thing they share in common are that they're populated by Oeridians, but that's not enough for me to make them the same. (for one, Thalos' Oeridians came to Thalos by land from the east, not by sea from the west).


    Maybe Chainmail, Frank Mentzer's campaign, and the Black Moon Chronicles make a circle that can't be squared perfectly, and turning New Empyrea into the equivalent of Australia is the best option there is. But it seems awkward to have to explain why the Aquaerdians sailed all the way down to Oerth's equivalent of Australia rather than going more directly across the ocean. The latter isn't impossible, and it's not impossible to put them in Fireland either (though I like Fireland better as a place of giants and Thillonrian colonists), but it seems less than organic to me.

    Perhaps Aquaria is to the rest of Thalos as Scotland is to England, a separate kingdom on the same island that went its own way for centuries, avoiding the settlers from the east? Especially if a mountain range or some other geographic barrier is added, I can imagine the reign of John Asperman and the plots of the Princes of Elemental Evil operating independently of the gnome constructs and Alia worshipers of Thalos.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Oct 23, 2011
    Posts: 16
    From: Twin Cities

    Send private message
    Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:30 pm  

    "But it seems awkward to have to explain why the Aquaerdians sailed all the way down to Oerth's equivalent of Australia rather than going more directly across the ocean."

    Ocean current? Cross-Atlantic sailing took advantage of currents, never just a straight-shot.

    Oerth is just covered with magical climates, maybe there is a mystical ocean current when followed precisely takes you through an aquatic fading land, or portal, that dumps the vessel on the southern hemisphere exactly the right distance from the proposed continent if continued.
    _________________
    My Greyhawk mapping project is being published at my website:http://admundfortgeographer.deviantart.com/
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 01, 2007
    Posts: 698
    From: NOW IN Cape May, NJ! Loving the new digs!

    Send private message
    Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:28 pm  
    Chainmail, and the Sundered Empire

    I have to say, I have long been a fan of the Sundered Empire setting of the Chainmail miniatures campaign from 2002. I have especially loved Stratis, and the interesting things they did with making the setting different than the Flanaess. I especially liked Ravilla, and some of the other factions. the Dwarves of Mordengaard are especially cool.

    But, this information is even more interesting and it makes me feel like jumping with joy that there are precedents for some of the other nations of the western part of Oerik.
    Blue Bomber, this is a really great find, and I can't tell you how much I really love the idea of getting some of this setting related info, and gleaning bits of it to fill out the way I like to think of that part of the world. Those nations as shown on the map are the size of the Great Kingdom, or the Suel Imperium and the Baklunish Empire, so I can only imagine the details for which there is room to fill this stuff out.

    Well done, sir. Well done. Bravo Zulu.

    I actually have pages and pages of notes on the place as they are describes in the original Chainmail sourcebooks. I'd really love to compare notes with you to see how much of our work is similar, and what you have that I don't have the first clue about.
    One of the ones that I would love to ask about are the "Baklien Khanates". I believe that on the Annual Map, they are called the High Khanate and the Low Khanate. Other than that, I really can't find much info on that, but you mention that they are from the Chainmail setting, and I haven't been able to locate a source for them in the sourcebook material or the Dragon Articles.
    I'd love to compare notes. ... send me a PM is you like, or charge into it right here on the thread.

    This is more generally for anyone - Mur, Komal and Risay, are apparently mentioned in the LGG? Or, at least, some of them are. And the LGG clearly pre-existed the Dungeon #136 ... so, from where does the original info for these places come? Or, is this something that began in the LGG from whole cloth?
    _________________
    Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com
    Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal
    Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:57 pm  
    Re: Chainmail, and the Sundered Empire

    rasgon wrote:
    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    Yeah, I thought about doing that too at first, but after reading up on Thalos in Dragon #287, the established histories of Thalos and Empyrea/Aquaria are just too different. The only thing they share in common are that they're populated by Oeridians, but that's not enough for me to make them the same. (for one, Thalos' Oeridians came to Thalos by land from the east, not by sea from the west).


    Maybe Chainmail, Frank Mentzer's campaign, and the Black Moon Chronicles make a circle that can't be squared perfectly, and turning New Empyrea into the equivalent of Australia is the best option there is. But it seems awkward to have to explain why the Aquaerdians sailed all the way down to Oerth's equivalent of Australia rather than going more directly across the ocean. The latter isn't impossible, and it's not impossible to put them in Fireland either (though I like Fireland better as a place of giants and Thillonrian colonists), but it seems less than organic to me.

    Perhaps Aquaria is to the rest of Thalos as Scotland is to England, a separate kingdom on the same island that went its own way for centuries, avoiding the settlers from the east? Especially if a mountain range or some other geographic barrier is added, I can imagine the reign of John Asperman and the plots of the Princes of Elemental Evil operating independently of the gnome constructs and Alia worshipers of Thalos.
    Basically, no matter what you do, you have to make adjustments to Mentzer's writing to make Aquaria fit. You can either change one word in this one sentence:

    Quote:
    ...most of the Aquaeridians left Aerdy by sea in 522 O.R., migrating eastward across the Solnor Ocean


    ...and leave the rest of the Aquaria background completely intact, or you can leave that sentence intact and try to make all sorts of complicated changes to make Aquaria fit somewhere on Western Oerik. I chose the former, since it would be much easier.

    It is highly unlikely that Aquaria will ever be seen in a published Greyhawk ever again (if Greyhawk ever sees print again) since Frank Mentzer owns all the rights and is publishing it independently, so neither of us is wrong here. I just chose the path of least resistance. Wink

    Icarus wrote:
    I have to say, I have long been a fan of the Sundered Empire setting of the Chainmail miniatures campaign from 2002. I have especially loved Stratis, and the interesting things they did with making the setting different than the Flanaess. I especially liked Ravilla, and some of the other factions. the Dwarves of Mordengaard are especially cool.

    But, this information is even more interesting and it makes me feel like jumping with joy that there are precedents for some of the other nations of the western part of Oerik.
    Blue Bomber, this is a really great find, and I can't tell you how much I really love the idea of getting some of this setting related info, and gleaning bits of it to fill out the way I like to think of that part of the world. Those nations as shown on the map are the size of the Great Kingdom, or the Suel Imperium and the Baklunish Empire, so I can only imagine the details for which there is room to fill this stuff out.

    Well done, sir. Well done. Bravo Zulu.

    I actually have pages and pages of notes on the place as they are describes in the original Chainmail sourcebooks. I'd really love to compare notes with you to see how much of our work is similar, and what you have that I don't have the first clue about.
    One of the ones that I would love to ask about are the "Baklien Khanates". I believe that on the Annual Map, they are called the High Khanate and the Low Khanate. Other than that, I really can't find much info on that, but you mention that they are from the Chainmail setting, and I haven't been able to locate a source for them in the sourcebook material or the Dragon Articles.
    I'd love to compare notes. ... send me a PM is you like, or charge into it right here on the thread.

    This is more generally for anyone - Mur, Komal and Risay, are apparently mentioned in the LGG? Or, at least, some of them are. And the LGG clearly pre-existed the Dungeon #136 ... so, from where does the original info for these places come? Or, is this something that began in the LGG from whole cloth?
    I got the "Baklien" name from Dragon #286, which gives the background on Ahmut's Legion. Ahmut was the leader of the Baklien horsemen that attacked Ravilla from the southeast. It's possible that they may be a separate group of horseman raiders than whoever dwells in the "Upper and Lower Khanates" but they seemed so similar that it made sense to make them the same.

    Komal and Risay are briefly mentioned in the LGG, and it seems Dungeon #136 adds to it, although that issue of Dungeon mainly focused on Mur.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 01, 2007
    Posts: 698
    From: NOW IN Cape May, NJ! Loving the new digs!

    Send private message
    Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:20 pm  
    Re: Chainmail, and the Sundered Empire

    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    I got the "Baklien" name from Dragon #286, which gives the background on Ahmut's Legion. Ahmut was the leader of the Baklien horsemen that attacked Ravilla from the southeast. It's possible that they may be a separate group of horseman raiders than whoever dwells in the "Upper and Lower Khanates" but they seemed so similar that it made sense to make them the same.

    Komal and Risay are briefly mentioned in the LGG, and it seems Dungeon #136 adds to it, although that issue of Dungeon mainly focused on Mur.

    Well ... those are the references that I had found, so, it's good to know, I guess, that I am up to par on that stuff. ... I'm really hoping that Gary Holian, or Rasgon, or Cebrion or someone will have some idea where the original material came from. Although, in your map-post above where everything is labeled, you said that, "The Baklien Khanates derive their name from the Chainmail supplement ...", so, I'd thought that you might've known something more, where there were specifics named (like in a Chainmail sourcebook) rather than in the Dragon Magazine ... but, the Dragon articles that covered the "basics" of the major factions in nine articles between #285 and #315. (There were 12 altogether that I knew about, but only 9 covered faction backgrounds.)
    _________________
    Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com
    Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal
    Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:27 pm  
    Re: Chainmail, and the Sundered Empire

    Icarus wrote:
    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    I got the "Baklien" name from Dragon #286, which gives the background on Ahmut's Legion. Ahmut was the leader of the Baklien horsemen that attacked Ravilla from the southeast. It's possible that they may be a separate group of horseman raiders than whoever dwells in the "Upper and Lower Khanates" but they seemed so similar that it made sense to make them the same.

    Komal and Risay are briefly mentioned in the LGG, and it seems Dungeon #136 adds to it, although that issue of Dungeon mainly focused on Mur.

    Well ... those are the references that I had found, so, it's good to know, I guess, that I am up to par on that stuff. ... I'm really hoping that Gary Holian, or Rasgon, or Cebrion or someone will have some idea where the original material came from. Although, in your map-post above where everything is labeled, you said that, "The Baklien Khanates derive their name from the Chainmail supplement ...", so, I'd thought that you might've known something more, where there were specifics named (like in a Chainmail sourcebook) rather than in the Dragon Magazine ... but, the Dragon articles that covered the "basics" of the major factions in nine articles between #285 and #315. (There were 12 altogether that I knew about, but only 9 covered faction backgrounds.)
    I don't have any of the Chainmail supplements, I've just read the book in the main set and the Dragon articles. I assumed the supplements used the material from Dragon magazine.

    EDIT: I see how it's confusing. I'll change the word "supplement" to "reboot" Wink
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3772
    From: So. Cal

    Send private message
    Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:12 am  

    The main rulebook and supplement books are mostly rules, but the first chapter of the main rulebook sort of lays out the whole thing about the factions and the Godswar. I can't recall what other information may be mentioned in the supplements, or if the game cards for the minis included any color text either. I do have my main CHAINMAIL rulebook handy(literally setting on the bookshelf next to me), but the supplements/cards are packed away...somewhere. I'll have a look around for them.
    _________________
    - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 01, 2007
    Posts: 698
    From: NOW IN Cape May, NJ! Loving the new digs!

    Send private message
    Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:10 pm  
    Chainmail, and the Sundered Empire

    Cebrion wrote:
    ... the first chapter of the main rulebook sort of lays out the whole thing ... I can't recall what other information may be mentioned in the supplements...

    It's basically the same in the supplements - there's a flavor-text in each one, describing little bits of the flavor of the God War, and all. There's typically very little useful, but, there's a tidbit or two.

    I've got most of it converted to text (from the core book and supplements) and all ... I never got the actual miniatures until they were "D&D miniatures" rather than "Chainmail", but, the D&D stat cards never had flavor text on them. Although, I believe when a new set came out, there was some flavor text in one of the chapters that describe the miniatures. For example:
    Quote:
    The equicephs were one of the Old Races that used to dominate Western Oerik. Large, horse-headed humanoids, they were a peaceful people. Rampaging Abyssal armies wiped them out during the Demon War, and no living equiceph has been seen since. Clerics of Nerull, always fond of plundering battlefields, found the remains of a tribe of equicephs. Now the Skeletal Equiceph walks the world again, brought back to unlife by forbidden magic and denied peace even in death.


    I'm really excited to see how well I will be able to mesh the info from the Dark Moon Chronicles with what we know from the Sundered Empire setting for Chainmail. I love Far Western Oerik, so it's kind of got me geeking out.
    _________________
    Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com
    Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal
    Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:35 am  

    Trying to run stuff through some online translation sites, so bear with me if these seem a little off.

    History

    While ancient legends envisaged that the Tharque Empire would endure forever, a black dawn rose with the appearance of the Magocracy of Obart, which created an army of walking corpses. As it crushed villages and towns before it, its army of the dead grew stronger. Destroying everything in their path, the demonic hordes supported by the endless stream of undead rose to the heart of the empire leaving behind ruins and flames. Thus the death knell of civilization was sounded.

    However, the unthinkable occurred in the third province of the Tharque Empire. In Altenberg, which was still a small citadel at the time, the soldiers managed to stop the invasion of twice-born. For a month, when all seemed lost, the men and women, guided by the Light delivered a foolish fight for their lives and for the salvation of their souls. Born in the blood paid by the war, the Order of Light had come to be victorious. Then, little by little, hope blew over the ashes and ruins, sweeping everything in its path. In Sysigie an Archangel of Justice appeared, then in the rest of the empire afterward, the people raised their heads and fought. The Order of Light, the Knights of Justice, and the army which would become afterward the Imperial Army allied with the Dragonmasters and converged to deliver the ultimate battle, driving the necromancers away in the province of the Big South of Der Hem Shelbem.

    The victors, having saved their way of life, then turned to the Oracle for guidance. In the center of what would become the empire was a vast plain, and in its center, surrounded by a disproportionately large mound, was chained the Oracle, knowing all but unable to do anything, ever sought, forever torn. At the heart of a huge fireball, he lies chained by the gods of fate for a forgotten crime. Only one can know his destiny, and it was the General of the victorious army. The Oracle predicted that he would become emperor and he would bring peace and prosperity. The Oracle promised to help each new emperor by revealing their coronation. This mortal, guided by the multiple voices describing a prophetic kingdom, would be able to better manage the empire.

    Before his coronation had even concluded, this new emperor formed a covenant with two holy orders. This second pillar of the empire, more unsung than Oracle, was sealed between God and the empire. In the form of crystal tablets guarded by angels who only let humans approach them, these tablets of law were a very important assurance of protection from a demonic invasion of the empire. These tablets bring power and protection to the various religious orders who have decided to pray to God. In order to preserve them, the emperor made orders wall them up and in the exact place where they were began the most fabulous construction all the time, the Imperial City of Lynn. This compact, now forgotten, lies in a crypt beneath the throne of the emperor. It is based on these two major assets that the new emperor decided to raise the high banners of the double-headed eagle on a background of scarlet blood. The Empire of Lynn was born.

    The story does not stop there. As one chapter ends, another begins. The rest of the Tharque Empire, who had ruled the known world for over a millennium, came to close on its original borders. The two most important orders are the Order of the Light and the Knights of Justice. The first one led a quest against all evil within the empire, marking any place bathed by the Light by castles. The Knights of Justice retired to Sysigie to heal its wounds. The time of the human beings had come. As for the other races, the dwarves are withdrawn in the city of Ghrunkedash, while the immortal elves, facing so many horrors before them, longed to decline and disappear in peace, leaving humans fight for an empire which, as all human empires would, disappear. To the north, barbarian invasions become more and more frequent, in the south, the kingdom of Érypt intended to draw riches from the thin possessions of this still weak empire. It is in this chaos arose the cult of the Black Moon. Built on the worship of the archimage Haazheel Thorn, this religion was threatened at first by the Order of the knights the Light. But this order benefited from a new magic, that of the menthats and from the almost divine power of its founder. The latter, rather than respond to Order of Light, proved his membership to the Empire by helping the Baron of Moork definitively rule out a barbarian threat by retaking lands stolen by the Kingdom of Erypt. The emperor endorsed this new religion. The menthats were more numerous in the empire, some from the Black Moon.

    The borders of the Empire of Lynn changed little. Centered physically and spiritually on the citadel of the Oracle, he saw the coronation of Haghendorf I. The stone mask of the Oracle speaks to all, but only Haghendorf can see its true face. After his coronation, this mortal, carrying only the weight of his destiny, has acquired the power to change the course of his life and empire. Although he appears meek, the emperor is considered by many as a tyrant. Living in his millennium palace, his policies favor without any discretion the human beings. So that among other peoples, and even the green skins, resistance is growing.


    Last edited by Bluebomber4evr on Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:52 am; edited 1 time in total
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:10 am  

    Tharque: the Empire such as it is known at the moment consists of only the ancient third province of the Tharque Empire. The Obart Magocracy left a ravaged land, but little by little, the humans rose up and began to reconstruct what had been destroyed. In spite of these losses, the Tharque Empire remains powerful.

    The Tharque Empire seeks to reclaim its lost territory, namely the present-day Empire of Lynn. To this end, the Tharque Empire is willing to join forces with anyone seeking to unseat Haghendorf. Meldrim is the current emperor of Tharque, and his younger brother Sierholt controls Tharque's navy, possibly the largest navy in the world.

    Ghrunkedash, the Crater City: The dwarf city of Ghrunkedash is famous in the empire for the quality of its metals. The city gates are steel and appear to be impregnable. The interior resembles that of an anthill. At the heart of the maze of fire and steel are the masters of the forges. All that is built and much more is to be sold still there. Everything has a price. The masters of the forges work for all nations. The city is built on an active volcano. The sinking lava transforms the landscape into a blood-red hell.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3108
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:32 am  

    I think this is a very good fantasy setting history, although it weirds me out a bit to think that it's part of Oerth.

    The biggest conflict would be the monotheistic background, I think - apart from the Black Moon religion, everyone seems to revere a single God.

    Also, "tables" should probably be translated as "tablets."
    GreySage

    Joined: Jul 26, 2010
    Posts: 2521
    From: LG Dyvers

    Send private message
    Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:13 am  

    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    The first one led a quest against all evil within the empire, marking any place bathed by the Light by kraks (I couldn't translate that last word).


    'Krak' is a French word for 'castle' as in Krak des Chevaliers (Castle of the Cavaliers/Knights).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krak_des_ChevaliersCached

    SirXaris

    Edit: Changed "... the French word..." to "... a French word..." Smile SX
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:48 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    I think this is a very good fantasy setting history, although it weirds me out a bit to think that it's part of Oerth.

    The biggest conflict would be the monotheistic background, I think - apart from the Black Moon religion, everyone seems to revere a single God.
    From what I can tell it's just the Empire of Lynn that is monotheistic. There are other gods--the Oracle is actually a goddess who was imprisoned by the other deities of her pantheon; Erypt worships either the Egyptian pantheon or deities resembling them, etc. The work I was translating from has a section about "other religions" so I'll work on that next.

    Obviously Froideval had to "de-Greyhawk" his work in order to publish it (especially in the late 80s/early 90s, when Lorraine Williams was suing everybody), so we just have to "re-Greyhawk" the setting. A monotheistic culture in and of itself is not all that weird, and it differentiates the area so it's not just the "Flanaess 2.0" Wink According to the TVTropes page,

    Quote:
    God: There's evidence enough he exists (Paladins of the Order of Justice are preternaturally good demonslayers, and high-ranking priests can perform resurrections) but we never see him, and he doesn't really do much; his one act is gathering up all his followers (who seem to be mostly imperial citizens) in the same place, then removing that chunk of land from the planet just before things literally go to hell for everyone left behind.


    I'm trying to think of deities that can be used for Lynn's "God" and the only one that really works is Neheod from A Paladin in Hell, even though that adventure wasn't set in any one particular setting.

    rasgon wrote:
    Also, "tables" should probably be translated as "tablets."
    that makes way more sense, thanks! Damn auto-translators Laughing

    SirXaris wrote:
    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    The first one led a quest against all evil within the empire, marking any place bathed by the Light by kraks (I couldn't translate that last word).


    'Krak' is a French word for 'castle' as in Krak des Chevaliers (Castle of the Cavaliers/Knights).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krak_des_ChevaliersCached

    SirXaris

    Edit: Changed "... the French word..." to "... a French word..." Smile SX
    Oh, awesome. Good catch! Happy
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3108
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:06 am  

    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    I'm trying to think of deities that can be used for Lynn's "God" and the only one that really works is Neheod from A Paladin in Hell, even though that adventure wasn't set in any one particular setting.


    That sounds like a reasonable use of Neheod. It also might be possible to use Pelor or Rao.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:13 am  

    Good call on Rao, he'd work really well, especially with his ties to the moons.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 01, 2007
    Posts: 698
    From: NOW IN Cape May, NJ! Loving the new digs!

    Send private message
    Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:05 pm  
    Chronicles of the Dark Moon

    OH MY GAWD IT'S BETTER THAN I THOUGHT !!!
    <ahem>
    Alright, now that I got the fanboy scream out of the way, I have to say, Blue Bomber, this stuff is absolutely marvelous. I realize that it is all in French, and so the language is a bit stilted in a place or two, but, it's absolutely fantastic

    It's interesting that I was actually thinking about how the monotheistic thing could be translated back to Greyhawk in Western Oerik. Rao is one that came to my mind as well ... and also the Thalish patron deity Stern Alia, whose serene porcelain face stares out from every Thalish adornment. But, I don't know if this would be more of the Oracle, and what faction she is really aligned with.
    I'm trying to work out all of the who's-who, and what's-what right now ... aligning the factions and whatnot. Putting the names and places firmly in mind, and recognizing them by name and locating them on the Chronicles map.

    I thought it interesting that you found the Chronicles of the Dark Moon on the TV Tropes page ... another one that I found interesting there:
    Quote:
    Roleplaying Game Verse: It helps to explain a lot of what happens when you know that the series was inspired by one of Froideval's old Dungeons & Dragons campaigns, and that he worked on AD&D for TSR in The Eighties.

    According to Blackmoon-online.com: "In 1982, he left France to become Assistant to the president of TSR (Dungeons & Dragons ™). It he lives 4 years in the USA. In those years, he co-wrote several rule books for Advanced Dungeon and Dragons: Monster Manual 2 and Oriental Adventure, with Gary Gygax."
    Hmm! I didn't know THAT!!! So, yeah, I can't imagine any way that Gary didn't game with Froideval, or any way that those games didn't influence the making of the Dragon Annual map.
    _________________
    Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com
    Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal
    Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3108
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:26 pm  

    Oriental Adventures was written by David "Zeb" Cook, but the "original concept" was credited to Gary Gygax with Francois Marcela-Froideval.

    From what I understand, this is how it went down:

    Quote:
    Doing some more reading (which I now realize, in a sense of deja vu, I had done a few years back), the publication of Oriental Adventures- at least in hindsight- was apparently controversial. EGG wanted his friend and associate Francois Froideval (he of the Master's DM's book map of Mystara for those Mystara-philes reading) to do the book, and Cook was supposed to edit it. According to Cook, however, the manuscript Froideval turned in was about "30-40 pages, double-spaced," and inadequate to cover the topic in a book the size of the hardcover. Cook basically then had to completely churn out Oriental Adventures from scratch on short notice. EGG's recollection was something to effect that he didn't like it, and that Cook had snuck it past him (TSR was in the midst of its financial troubles with the Blume Brothers). Cook's recollection is that EGG vetted everything that Cook did as he did it, and was happy with it. EGG in his later years apparently came across that original manuscript and said it was much better than the whole of Cook's, and he wanted to republish it.


    There's some stuff about how Marcela-Froideval ended up creating the map of Mystara in this thread.

    In the Monster Manual II preface, Gygax writes "My sincere gratitude is extended to Frank Mentzer and to Francois Marcela-Froideval for their valuable assistance."
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:47 pm  

    Yeah, and that's also why Kara-Tur as described in Oriental Adventures doesn't really work with Greyhawk all that well--Cook designed it to be setting-neutral, so the geography as described in the 1st ed. book alone matches nothing in any 1st. ed. Greyhawk material (although if you wanted you could make a separate continent to accommodate it, but that's a whole other discussion).

    As for the Oracle, I think she should be separate from Stern Alia. She's largely forgotten and has lost a considerable amount of her original power--and only the Emperors of Lynn know the Oracle is even female or what her face looks like.

    And I had a thought about Neheod! If I remember correctly, A Paladin in Hell describes Neheod as a demigod who was tortured by a "Morval the Wicked" before ascending to a higher level of divinity. What if Neheod's father was Rao? And what if this "Morval the Wicked" was an ancient Tharquish Emperor?
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 13, 2001
    Posts: 443


    Send private message
    Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:24 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    It brings up a picture of Tubgirl. You might want to find another source of the image, Rob.

    Were you trying to link to this?


    Oh, crap! Yeah, Rip, that's what I was trying to link to.

    Sorry, folks!
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 09, 2003
    Posts: 1240
    From: Clarksville, TN

    Send private message
    Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:52 pm  

    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    ...And I had a thought about Neheod! If I remember correctly, A Paladin in Hell describes Neheod as a demigod who was tortured by a "Morval the Wicked" before ascending to a higher level of divinity. What if Neheod's father was Rao? And what if this "Morval the Wicked" was an ancient Tharquish Emperor?


    ...and what about Neheod's 12 Acolyte's... BTW, who's his mom? Wink
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:24 pm  

    jamesdglick wrote:
    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    ...And I had a thought about Neheod! If I remember correctly, A Paladin in Hell describes Neheod as a demigod who was tortured by a "Morval the Wicked" before ascending to a higher level of divinity. What if Neheod's father was Rao? And what if this "Morval the Wicked" was an ancient Tharquish Emperor?


    ...and what about Neheod's 12 Acolyte's... BTW, who's his mom? Wink
    I'm actually I'm reading it now and realized I did not remember it correctly Laughing

    Neheod was not a demigod, he was a human who merged with a deity, so there's no way to involve Rao with Neheod (which is probably for the better).
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 01, 2007
    Posts: 698
    From: NOW IN Cape May, NJ! Loving the new digs!

    Send private message
    Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:53 pm  
    Chainmail, and the Sundered Empire & DMC

    So ... okay ... let's see if I can try to make a little sense out of all the info that here ...

    I'll likely use the canon story from GH, and just fill in what blanks with DMC stuff that doesn't conflict with any known canon. There's not a lot of Sundered Empire canon, so I think that a lot would fit.

    Altenberg and Sysygie - are in about the same location as the Kingdom of Thalos in the Chainmail (Sundered Empire of Ravilla) setting. So ... are they close enough that they could be reconciled? Or, just simply converted, I think. I'm not certain how much Queen Almira XXI and Prince Parsifal have in common.

    I just went back and read some of the stuff from Dragon # 287 ...
    Quote:
    Four hundred years later, Thalos has become a mighty nation. It controls the seas ... and it's paladins lead a mighty army. Almira XXI is an inspirational leader like her ancestor. In the wake of the death of Stratis, Almira declared a great crusade. She has inspired her people with visions of of conquering their ancestral homelands, and her armies now march on the continent they once fled.


    I think that this might be a decent enough fit, and Prince Parsifal (Kingdom of Justice) could be a noble that is in charge of the military itself, or something. I haven't quite figured out how to do the Order of Light yet, and am not quite certain how Fratus Sinister will fit into the whole thing - I haven't read a lot on him yet.

    What say you others? Would it work?
    _________________
    Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com
    Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal
    Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com


    Last edited by Icarus on Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:52 pm  

    Altenberg and Sysigie are part of the Empire of Lynn, though. I'd keep them separate from the Chainmail stuff and just make them south of the Free States. Western Oerik is HUGE so there's plenty of room for both.

    The situation the Empire of Lynn is in between Tharque to the west and Erypt/Khemit to the east is just enough to keep it from being too involved in the Godwar, plus as a monotheistic nation it would probably reject the idea of any of its citizens becoming a god of war.

    EDIT: fixed directions for Tharque and Erypt


    Last edited by Bluebomber4evr on Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:27 am; edited 1 time in total
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:27 am  

    Here's the bit about other religions/orders of the Empire of Lynn

    Other Religions:

    Beyond the three main orders, live two other mysterious orders: the order of Dragon-Knights, situated in the Pass of Dragons, and the order established by Methraton. The second is the symbol of balance and neutrality. Methraton, the ultimate mage, He Who Makes the Gods Tremble, is the founder. This order, although honored by all mages, really only has practitioners in Erypt. The serpent is the herald of Methraton, that which the powerful ones of this world would like to reconcile. Its citadel is located halfway between the real and the imaginary, lost between heaven and earth, strangely aware of the frames to the future ...

    There are also old religions forgotten by all. They are the religions connected to the earth and to the component elements of life. Each religion has its temple erased from human memory. The Cult of Winds is situated on the Mount of New Peaks. The winds converge and mingle at the top of the central peak. This huge stone column is the Shrine of the Winds. Here, while coming from all the directions, come the big winds, Lords of the Air. They rush by buzzing towards the summit of the monolith.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 01, 2007
    Posts: 698
    From: NOW IN Cape May, NJ! Loving the new digs!

    Send private message
    Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:07 pm  
    Chronicles of the Dark Moon

    So ... it's kind of difficult learning all one can about an essentially "new" setting within just a couple of days ...
    But, the thing that this is coming down to - for me - is that the maps of the Black Moon Chronicles and those of Greyhawk are essentially mutually exclusive. I really like the material, but, there's no way to make them reconcile. I even briefly began to consider the possibility of the areas being set in different periods of GH history. I figure that there are bound to be little differences, and the coastlines don't really have to match, so long as they are mostly recognizable as purporting to be the same. But, in the BMC, the coastline isn't fractured as it is in GH. There's actually a significant portion of the landmass that is missing in the region of what would be the Free States (near Lhynn).
    So ... since I am going to favor GH canon, I think that I have come to a fair compromise. The way it seems to me is that there's not a lot to differ between the placements of the nations between the Dragon Annual map, and the Chainmail map.
    ... with the notable exception of the Empire of Lhynn. Mostly, the Chainmail stuff is in the north, and the nations that are recognizable from the BMC are in the south. But, the Empire of Lhynn isn't on the Chainmail map, and it directly overlaps Drazen's Horde. If I place it below the Free States, it takes up room that would be the Tharque (or Tharquish) Empire. And it's kind of difficult to place it right under Drazen's Horde, because Drazen is supposed to have crossed the Blasted Desert and come North to the area the Horde controls now. Also, that is where the Tribes of the Enllaves are s'posed to be.
    If all of the BMC nations could fit in the "Southlands", it would be fine, because Chainmail canon says that there is other stuff out there, but, that neither explains why Lhynn isn't in a desert, nor why Lhynn isn't at war with Drazen's Horde, as well. ... although, now that I think of it, Drazen could be written to be part of the Cult Dark Moon, or vice versa.

    Ugh ... this is driving me nuts. Maybe, I'll just leave it the way it is, and say that "Thalos" is part of the "Empire of Lhynn", and keep it just the way that it is on the Dragon Annual map, and say that Chainmail simply didn't address this other faction?

    ... on the BMC map, how far into the middle-lands does the Empire of Lhynn extend?
    _________________
    Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com
    Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal
    Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com


    Last edited by Icarus on Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:17 pm  

    The thing is, there's just enough canon on GH's Empire of Lynn (in Dungeon #124 and Expedition to Castle Greyhawk) that suggests that Lynn is a distinct and separate area from Chainmail's Sundered Empire.

    I don't think it's that big a deal to shrink the size a bit from the Dragon Annual map and move it a bit to the south--it'd still be more than twice the size of the old Great Kingdom. I also think it wouldn't hurt to reduce the size of the Sundered Empire territories a little as well since their descriptions suggest a smaller area than the very generously drawn territories on the Chainmail map.

    The Black Moon Chronicles comics/games would be considered apocrypha anyway, in the same way the Gord the Rogue novels are: not 100% canon, but still useful to mine for ideas. I'm mainly presenting them as they are so we can all make a Greyhawk version of them. Smile
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 15, 2011
    Posts: 85
    From: Staug, FL, USA

    Send private message
    Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:38 pm  

    This is really fascinating and completely unexpected. Unfortunately, it's going to take days to sift though all of it.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:57 pm  

    And now the Empire of Lynn itself:

    Lhynn, capital of the Empire:

    Lhynn is the all-powerful capital of the empire. Immense and fabulously rich city, Lhynn welcomes everything, and everything is in profusion there: silk, gems, works of art, jewelry, weapons and armor... From the ramparts, it is possible to contemplate the most gigantic naval port of the Empire. A lighthouse guiding ships is at the top of the imperial palace. This colossal edifice is both the place of imperial residence, barracks for the guards and also contains the important ministries. The walls are able to resist the attack of giants and the most powerful siege engines. It is said that the heaviest stones were cut by dwarves in order to have a perfect finish. Yet, their sheer size means that they can only have been placed by several giants. A little farther, in the shade of this disproportionate structure is the district of the temples within which almost all the religions of the empire are represented. One cannot describe Lhynn without mentioning the imperial college, training many thaumaturges; and its library which constitutes the largest gathering of knowledge. There, mages study constantly, waiting to accompany the imperial armies. We find finally numerous military academies, training the best legionaries as well as the best strategists who will become imperial centurions.

    The Plain of the Oracle:

    In the center of the Empire is a vast plain set with a disproportionate mound in which the Oracle is chained. The doors of the immense cairn only open to let pass those which wish to see it. It is known infallible, also the latter are legions. Some wait months to hear its call. The path to the oracle is lined with stalls of false seers, soothsayers and magicians and real charlatans in addition to those who wait the call and those who watch politicians go. Only one can know its destiny but the reflection of the Oracle agrees to answer a question put aloud. To come to him is nevertheless frustrating because his cryptic answers bring often more questions than of answers. The Oracle's sanctum is a sacred place where fighting is not allowed.

    Altenberg, all-powerful fortress of the Order of the Light

    Never conquered, never subjugated, Altenberg is the lighthouse of the purity, the seat of the Order of Light. It is the stronghold of the Grand Master Frater Sinister... There, the brothers train tirelessly to ensure that their actions are as safe as their souls immaculate. Their faith is always forged in fires of the sun and the Lord. A good part of their spare time is dedicated to the saving prayers and to the purificatory ablutions. This city is in fact made up of gigantic fortresses inside larger fortifications still. Saint-of-the-Saint, the ultimate keep, is located in the middle of the citadel. It includes the room of the high commander and a gigantic cathedral from which rise litanies and the sounds of bells seven times blessed. From these emanate the most powerful clerical spells that guide the arms of the faithful throughout the empire. This warrior order depends on the authority of the emperor, and been able to raise many castles within the empire making this order more popular than the Order of Justice. In fact, this order is managed militarily by the Grand Master Frater Sinister and morally by its Archpriest.

    The symbol of the Knights of the Light is a scarlet cross placed on the pristine white of the Light. It represent the blood shed by these warlike monks for the continual defense of the imperial colonists against the brutality of nonhumans. The spearhead of the army is composed of the nobility and the youngest son of each major family.

    Sysigie, Kingdom of Justice

    On the borders of the empire is the principality of Sysigie. The latter is named after the astronomical phenomenon that is its origin. Indeed, the “basin” which constitutes this territory comes from the fall from an enormous meteorite caused by a syzygy (or syzygia) or alignment from celestial bodies. Led by Prince Parsifal, Commander of the Order of the Knights of Justice, this land bathed by a sea of ​​clouds is a place of peace and of harmony. In the shelter of strong walls of granite, has developed a secular order of pure-hearted knights. These obedient servants of the Lord are composed mainly of monks, warriors, and ordained priests. This vast kingdom is bordered by high, impassible mountains. Its only access is a gorge a few hundred meters wide. There, a huge fortress wall was raised by his government in order to protect access. The gates of brass, also called gates of Dawn, are controlled by a powerful machine.

    Defended by the twice-blessed swords of master paladins, Sysigie also hosts a population of strange dracomorphs dedicating themselves to the cause of God.

    Barony of Moork, home of the Black Moon

    Situated in the northeastern portion of the Empire, the Barony of Moork sits between the powerful provinces of Northhind to the west and Horkher to the east. Benefiting from lands less rich than its neighbors, the Barony of Moork became allied to the Black Moon to protect itself from barbaric kingdoms situated even more in the North of the north marches of the Empire. According to legend, the Black Moon lives in a gigantic palace situated in the borders of the marches of the empire at the end of the Barony of Moork. What few people know, is that the Grand Arch, which separates the two fiefs, is actually a portal between Earth and the Black Moon, as only a reflection of the palace on Earth. In fact, the structure exists on the surface of the Moon itself, a symbol of the power of the archmage Haazheel Thorn. From there comes the nickname of the Black Moon. The titanic palace, protected from all, accommodates a million faithful. The nerve center of his power is a huge ball room whose wall is divided in small cavities resembling a honeycomb. These cells host, for a while, the soul of a believer in prayer. The energy of his faith is concentrated in that room. Stored, it is then distributed among the various priests.

    Drach, the Kingdom of Dragons

    The Pass of Dragons is one of the rare entrances to legendary kingdom of the wyrms, within an immensely rocky and jagged part of the country. There are sleeping dragons whose number is unknown. The oldest dragons reign mercilessly over their offspring by means of some human beings with whom they enter into an alliance. These "Dragon Knights" watch carefully and forbid all access to the Kingdom of Drach.

    Dragon Knights are descendants of humans who had a pact with the dragons. Combined with the wyrms in the Kingdom of Drach, they protect the Pass of Dragons and forbid access. They also raise the offspring of dragons. A veritable symbiosis develops between the dragon and its rider. Indeed, by weaving an empathic link the creature sees its intelligence increasing and the human being sees his life expectancy prolonged.

    Kendrhir Vale

    Kendrhir, the city of Grand Magi, has the distinction of being governed by the directors of the different schools of magic that comprise it. This city was built by the sorcerer's apprentices who wanted to find calm and rest for a place conducive to study. Unofficially, it is rather composed of students who were rejected at Imperial College.

    Feyhin Forest

    Feyhin Lockthat, the city of gladiators and the game is home to many adventurers and merchants. By exempting travelers from taxes, it attracts a more heterogeneous population.

    Sunken Glade of Magistrya

    Magistrya is a city winding as a stony snake around a rock peak forming an amazing maze of lace. The most beautiful houses spread out to higher ground. Magistrya is also home to the palace of the Magister, a powerful mage that many say is immortal. He rules the city with an iron fist and keeps order. The guards are numerous, well-trained and brutal.

    The Territories of the Marches

    The Territories of the Marches are a succession of small bordering provinces in the empire. Ruled by lords who are trying to ensure their own protection, these realms have only relatively dry land. It is, however, these limited resources that provide better protection. Nevertheless, Taarak, Klindor, and Hazol are often subjected to barbarian raids. These cities are the three largest cities of the Territories of the Marches.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:30 pm  

    Here's Erypt:


    Érypt, the kingdom of Pharaoh

    The kingdom of Érypt is crossed by the Nile, the big feeder river. At its center is an island where the sacred city of the magi of Érypt is located. This city does not have a name so that no one can find it.

    More to the north is Memphis, the capital of the two kingdoms of high and low Érypt. The place ruled by the almighty Pharaoh. Surrounded by gigantic walls, no other city of Érypt is as beautiful, as large nor as richly decorated. Protected by magic canals, the main channel, also called royal canal, leads directly to the palace reserved for the Pharaoh, the Magi and the great nobles. This huge canal is lined with high walls decorated with countless statues and covered by a number of vigilant archers. Immense, magnificent and teeming with people, Memphis finds an equivalent in the superlative degrees only with the capital of Lhynn. The city of the Pharaoh was, however, far more prosperous for many years. And the rich are much richer and the poor have given up their freedom. There are many palanquins advancing slowly on the large esplanade of the palace of the Great Vizier. Memphis has many architectural wonders, most notable are the gigantic pyramids, royal tombs of the preceding Pharaonic dynasties, and the great royal square, so large that it could contain a whole city. The wonders of Memphis stretch out of sight and seem to have no end.

    The Kingdom of Érypt was born of the alliance of the Nubian people to share, for a time, with the Tharque Empire with the largest area of ​​the world. Nevertheless, contrary to Atlanteans and Tharques, Érypt knew how to moderate its ascent as well as its fall. Governed by the living God, Pharaoh, the land includes the greatest fighters (the Sphinx Guards) as well as the most powerful mages.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Oct 23, 2011
    Posts: 16
    From: Twin Cities

    Send private message
    Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:36 pm  

    That's far too uncomfortably similar in names with the real world places . . . :(
    _________________
    My Greyhawk mapping project is being published at my website:http://admundfortgeographer.deviantart.com/
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:56 pm  

    Miscellaneous locations:

    Der Hem Shelbem, province of the Great South

    The necropolis of Der Hem Shelbem underwent the assaults of the years and curiously seems to have escaped the usual plunders. A horde of undead protects the valley. These arise in a continuous flow from the soil, chilling the blood of the most seasoned warriors. Governed by a lich, the necropolis reverberates in abject murmurs, necromantic incantations recited in a forgotten language.

    Kashocs Fault

    The Kashocs Fault separates the marches from the heart of the Empire of Lhynn. Arrived at the foot of the fault, it literally rips the sky. It only has the winds that howl across it for company.

    Tsaroth Crags

    It is said that the Tsaroth Crags plunge straight to hell. It is well said. On this windswept plain was the site of the last battle against the Obart Magocracy and its army of the undead.


    Last edited by Bluebomber4evr on Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:57 pm  

    Anondson wrote:
    That's far too uncomfortably similar in names with the real world places . . . :(
    For Erypt, yes. But it's easily fixed.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 10, 2003
    Posts: 1234
    From: New Jersey

    Send private message
    Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:29 am  

    I like Erypt being named Khemit instead much like Rick Millers name for Orcreich is Darak Urtag.

    Funny thing is I was working on a project for Orcreich and thinking of naming it Hurzak-Gur prior to finding out good old Duicarthan had came up with a moniker for it. So Hurzak-Gur will be a major city in Darak Urtag.

    Cebrion has also been so kind to share a little article with me on the orcish language for dnd. Plus these comics have served as a spring board for more Ideas.

    I must agree that the comics and chaainmail setting don't mesh perfectly. I had the Empire of Lhynn pinned for a Hextor nation which supports ruling with an iron hand not another GK version for the west. The order of light is amirded by them but seen as week because edicts get in the way though both orders would like to safeguard the weapons of Stratis he is brother to both orders main Deity and all 3 share a bond.

    The black moon seem to resemble a mix of Ahmuts legion and the Drazen horde so I see one of then using a solar eclipse as there banner so if the Drazen horde has were creatures in there ranks then they can be the black moon. Or the black moon could represent when all fell creatures return from their slumber .

    Lots of possibilities here it will be fun to see how things pan out.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3108
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:00 am  

    Is the Black Moon Celene or Luna? Or should it be Black Moons?

    Also, GVD did some work establishing Zarus as patron of the Tharquish Empire here: http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=632
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:09 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    Is the Black Moon Celene or Luna? Or should it be Black Moons?

    Also, GVD did some work establishing Zarus as patron of the Tharquish Empire here: http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=632
    I think Celene works perfectly for the Black Moon. It's more like the environment of the real world moon, and is littered with ancient ruins of some unknown race. Haazel Thorn could easily have co-opted one of the more pristine ruins on Celene's far side for his temple.

    I've seen that stuff on Zarus before, a player on the Ravenloft Neverwinter Nights server I DM on posted it. I wonder if he's the same person?

    I think Zarus could work for the Tharque Empire, but I think they should be polytheistic. They should have a large number of gods. I think the Oracle was one of the deities of the Tharquish pantheon, too.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:11 pm  

    Here's how I think it would be laid out on a map:

    https://goo.gl/photos/JhgRQ9nzm8BPr1YQ9

    Really, you could reduce Thalos' borders a bit, move the Free States and Drazen's Horde northwards slightly, and then you could have Lynn's borders reach the southern edge of that forest. As it is, the Empire of Lynn on the above map covers a very large area.


    Last edited by Bluebomber4evr on Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 01, 2007
    Posts: 698
    From: NOW IN Cape May, NJ! Loving the new digs!

    Send private message
    Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:52 pm  
    Chronicles of the Dark Moon - map and descriptions

    The first thing I would like to say is ... Wow, this stuff is just f'ing amazing, Blue Bomber! Thank you for taking the time to relate all of this stuff ... not just in French translations, but in typing it all up and reporting it here! Bravo, sir. Bra-vo.

    I would like to say, I think that I am likely one of about a half-percent of GH fans that's okay with the names. No one complains that Conan is too similar to IRL history, do they? I'm fond of Erypt. (And I like Blue Bomber's "Érypt" spelling of it.) I like having historical fantasy in my game. In fact, that's what I like most about it. Also, "Orcreich" (to me) is just a descriptor. Just like "Terra Incognita", or "Here there be Dragons". Literally, all it would mean is "Orc-Empire" (or something close). I tend to like the word "regime" better because it conveys more of the connotation to it, but, it could be rule, kingdom, realm, domain, or whatever. It, too, just means "Here there be Orcs". It's not likely that whatever explorer went by the place spent very much time there, finding out what it's called in the local dialect. Just like, I'm sure if one were to bother asking, I would bet that if you asked the orcs and goblinoids that live there, they wouldn't call it "Spinecastle", either. But ... I am likely to just let others go on with their ... <ahem> ... very strong feelings about it.

    Anyway! So, Blue Bomber, about the map. It looks like you and I were having very similar ideas about it. It can easily all fit in there, with just maybe a 5 to 10% fudging of the sizes of the northern nations to make a little room for it. The only thing that I am curious about though is the placement of the Empire of Lyhnn right below Drazen's Horde. The thing of it is that Drazen led them out of the South Lands, and across the Barren Desert. I don't know how that would fit, considering that would mean that he led them through the Empire of Lyhnn to end up where they are now? Perhaps since the Barony of Moork and Horkher are shown to the east on the Dark Moon map, maybe Drazen could be scooched a little further toward Ahmut, and as Argon pointed out, make them sort of on a side as erstwhile conspirators.
    Also, in your description of the Barony of Moork, it says, "Northhind to the west, and Horkher to the east. am I missing something there? Because on the DMC map, it's North-notherwest, and due North, respectively. Maybe we're using different sources?
    So ... here's that thought I threw out, just as a quick mock-up. It's nothing that I think shouldn't keep being tweaked, I just figured it might have a better idea of what we're talking about.
    [Edited to correct broken link].


    Anyway, enough rambling for one post!
    _________________
    Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com
    Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal
    Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com


    Last edited by Icarus on Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:42 am; edited 3 times in total
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:06 pm  

    I don't think the Black Moon Chronicles MMO map is all that accurate in terms of placement. It has Sysigie on the coast but it's supposed to be surrounded by mountains, Moork is too far to the east, and so on.

    The issue with the map you drew is Lynn needs to be on the coast (it has a port) and so does Altenberg.

    As for Drazen's horde, they could have passed through the Territories of the Marches. I assume they're on the eastern-most portion of the Empire of Lynn, and there's little there for the hobgoblins to want to stay for long, since they're so poor and sparsely populated.

    Also, later on in the comics, when Haazel Thorn's true intentions are revealed, he has an army of humanoids (orcs, ogres, giants, etc.). We could assume he'd entered into an alliance with Drazen as well--kind of a tit-for-tat thing: "You help me take over Lynn, I'll help you take over Ravilla."
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:10 pm  

    The Erypt/Khemit issue is easily resolved.

    Real-world ancient Egyptians called their land "Kemet" which means "black land." This refers to the nutrient rich black sediment deposited by the Nile every season. The name "Egypt" comes from the Greeks, and it did not become the true name of that land until Alexander the Great conquered the nation in 332 BC. So as long as there's a river similar to the Nile, calling it "Khemit" is fine. The name "Erypt" can come from the Tharque Empire, since it is depicted as Greco-Roman.

    "Memphis" is also a Greek word. The ancient Egyptians called that city "Inebou-Hedjou," which means "the white walls."

    And the name "Nile" is Arabic. The ancient Egyptians called it "Iteru" which means "great river."

    So the inhabitants can call their nation "Khemit" and their capital city "Inebou-Hedjou" and their main river "Iteru." Even though they're real world names, they have simple translations and haven't been used for thousands of years. And if anyone really wants to keep using "Erypt," that can simply be explained as the Tharquish name for the country (and Lynn, being a former part of the Tharque Empire, would also use that name).
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 01, 2007
    Posts: 698
    From: NOW IN Cape May, NJ! Loving the new digs!

    Send private message
    Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:15 pm  
    alternate names for Khemet/Erypt

    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    The Erypt/Khemit issue is easily resolved. ... So the inhabitants can call their nation "Khemit" and their capital city "Inebou-Hedjou" and their main river "Iteru."

    See ... now that's what I'm talking about! These names are much more likely to be pleasing to fantasy-gamer ears.

    Spot on, Blue Bomber!

    [Edit: Although, now that I'm thinking about it, I am tempted to just use the Hamunaptra setting from Green Ronin as Erypt. They call it "Khemti" there.]
    _________________
    Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com
    Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal
    Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com


    Last edited by Icarus on Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:20 am; edited 2 times in total
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3772
    From: So. Cal

    Send private message
    Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:08 am  

    I agree. That sort of reasoning is very good, and is definitely put to good use in that manner.

    However, I am just not a fan of real world cut-n-paste when otherwise the real world is only alluded to in Greyhawk. That is where much of the Western Oerik stuff comes of the rails and fails, becoming "other than Greyhawk" in nature, to me at least. If I wanted to play D&D in a mythic earth setting, I would not be playing in Greyhawk at all, Instead I would be using earth as presented in Ars Magika, which is basically medieval earth, but all of the myths and legends are real, and they are very much out to get you. Laughing
    _________________
    - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:13 pm  

    Cebrion wrote:
    I agree. That sort of reasoning is very good, and is definitely put to good use in that manner.

    However, I am just not a fan of real world cut-n-paste when otherwise the real world is only alluded to in Greyhawk. That is where much of the Western Oerik stuff comes of the rails and fails, becoming "other than Greyhawk" in nature, to me at least. If I wanted to play D&D in a mythic earth setting, I would not be playing in Greyhawk at all, Instead I would be using earth as presented in Ars Magika, which is basically medieval earth, but all of the myths and legends are real, and they are very much out to get you. Laughing
    Well sure, we all have legitimate gripes about that map. If I had my druthers the continent wouldn't look that way to begin with. Wink But like it or not, that's what's been established in published materials. Sure, we can each of us ignore what we don't like in our own campaigns, but I'm just trying to make the most out of what we've been given canonically. We've been told there's an Egypt-like civilization, so I'm trying to make it work. Same with the Empire of Lynn--we've been told by disparate sources that it's there (Dragon Annual #1, Gary Gygax, Expedition to Castle Greyhawk, Dungeon #124), so it's just a matter of taking the source material and trying to work with it in a satisfactory way.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Oct 07, 2008
    Posts: 377


    Send private message
    Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:06 pm  
    Overlap

    I like the map with the overlapping areas. It makes me think that maybe one area was claimed by a new regime and parts of it may be in dispute or in conflict. I didn't notice any dates with the maps. But then we're lucky to have such nice maps in the first place, I'm not complaining.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 16, 2010
    Posts: 19
    From: TregMallin

    Send private message
    Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:43 pm  
    probably just a coincidence but...

    Did you know, that the famous Empire Carpet pitchman was named... Lynn Hauldren? He was advertising Empire in the Chicago market since 1977.

    Empire of Lynn?

    Yeah, okay. Probably was just a coincidence.
    Cool
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 09, 2003
    Posts: 1240
    From: Clarksville, TN

    Send private message
    Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:03 am  
    Re: probably just a coincidence but...

    TregMallin wrote:
    Did you know, that the famous Empire Carpet pitchman was named... Lynn Hauldren? He was advertising Empire in the Chicago market since 1977.

    Empire of Lynn?

    Yeah, okay. Probably was just a coincidence.
    Cool


    Well, one of the less imaginative aspects of Greyhawk is EGG & company's system for naming (anagrams, named after friends, etc). It why the "languages" are so inconsistent; EGG was no JRR Tolkein.

    Keep in mind that the head-of-state of the corrupt city state of Stoink was Boss Dhaely...
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 12, 2001
    Posts: 462
    From: Ithaca, New York

    Send private message
    Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:14 pm  

    You might want to compare the Flanaess to the western coast before setting boundaries in stone. I think you could drop at least two flanesses into the western part of the continent, and the scale there is already pretty big. Everything sketched out so far is -massive-.

    Also, I agree with cebrion on the real-world references. Sure, there's an "Egypt-like" nation...but basically all that means is it's dry and there are pyramids and mummies. Does that really mean the culture has to be exactly the same as on Earth? It's really annoying when someone creates a fantasy Egypt, and then goes through senseless convolutions to keep the demihumans out because Egypt didn't have elves.

    That, to me, is just a failure of imagination.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3108
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:44 am  

    I think Oerik's very different geography would naturally make these nations different from their Earthly equivalents. China was never across the sea from Egypt, but Shaofeng's proximity to Erypt would logically influence both cultures. Erypt would be an Egypt with a history of trade and colonization with Shaofeng, and may have as much in common with that nation as Egypt did with the empires of Alexander and Rome. Likewise, Oerth's Japan is a long way from Shaofeng but very close to Zahind and the Olman lands, and it would logically get most of its cultural cues from its neighbors. It's be more like a fantasy hybrid of Sri Lanka and the Caribbean than Japan.

    I wouldn't artificially keep demihumans out of these lands, but I wouldn't put them in just to have them, either. Both would be an equal failure of imagination. I'd like to see different dominant races in different parts of Oerth.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:21 am  

    Nellisir wrote:
    You might want to compare the Flanaess to the western coast before setting boundaries in stone. I think you could drop at least two flanesses into the western part of the continent, and the scale there is already pretty big. Everything sketched out so far is -massive-.

    Also, I agree with cebrion on the real-world references. Sure, there's an "Egypt-like" nation...but basically all that means is it's dry and there are pyramids and mummies. Does that really mean the culture has to be exactly the same as on Earth? It's really annoying when someone creates a fantasy Egypt, and then goes through senseless convolutions to keep the demihumans out because Egypt didn't have elves.

    That, to me, is just a failure of imagination.
    I haven't seen anything so far that suggests that there aren't demihumans in these areas. I agree to a point with what you say, but I also find it a little lacking when standard euro-elves/dwarves/etc are dropped into exotic cultures with little to no changes. (I'm looking at you, Dragonlance!)

    rasgon wrote:
    I think Oerik's very different geography would naturally make these nations different from their Earthly equivalents. China was never across the sea from Egypt, but Shaofeng's proximity to Erypt would logically influence both cultures. Erypt would be an Egypt with a history of trade and colonization with Shaofeng, and may have as much in common with that nation as Egypt did with the empires of Alexander and Rome. Likewise, Oerth's Japan is a long way from Shaofeng but very close to Zahind and the Olman lands, and it would logically get most of its cultural cues from its neighbors. It's be more like a fantasy hybrid of Sri Lanka and the Caribbean than Japan.
    Actually, I propose a compromise! I think Oerth should have it's own version of a fantasy Japan. I know Gygax wanted a continent full of Asian cultures (and I believe he had one in his home campaign), and depending on how much of Froideval's Black Moon work we want to include, there's a major character in those comics, Murata, who very much looks like a classical Japanese samurai. This is easily workable, though!

    Ryuujin can be originally be inhabited by a mixture of Olman and Zahindi people, who were then pushed to the fringes by invading people of the same ethnic group as Shaofeng. This sub-group from Shaofeng has a culture resembling Japan, perhaps themselves pushed from Shaofeng (or left voluntarily), while the Olman/Zahindi hybrid culture would be analagous to the real-world Ainu.

    As for interaction, Japan was very insular for most of its existence, Ryuujin can be the same, although they don't need to be, because I also tend to view Zahind as very similar to Roger Moore's "Inda, Greyhawk-style" from AOL way back in 96 (although with a few modifications to match the nations described as bordering the Sea of Dust from the Gord the Rogue novels and Erik Mona's "Beyond the Flanaess" writeup). In Moore's article, the Zahindi people are culturally insular and not sea-going, for a very detailed reason.

    rasgon wrote:
    I wouldn't artificially keep demihumans out of these lands, but I wouldn't put them in just to have them, either. Both would be an equal failure of imagination. I'd like to see different dominant races in different parts of Oerth.
    Me too! Happy
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3108
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:44 pm  

    I see Zahind as being similar to the Mahasarpa campaign, with elements of Tal Meta's Sunela (including Osbyle, Nochet, Zobolfon, and Zofon).

    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    Ryuujin can be originally be inhabited by a mixture of Olman and Zahindi people, who were then pushed to the fringes by invading people of the same ethnic group as Shaofeng. This sub-group from Shaofeng has a culture resembling Japan, perhaps themselves pushed from Shaofeng (or left voluntarily), while the Olman/Zahindi hybrid culture would be analagous to the real-world Ainu.


    Since there's a sea, thousands of miles of land (including the lands Erik Mona named the Vanian Confederation, Hitaxia, Vulzar, and Davann), and one of the biggest mountain ranges on Oerth between Shaofeng and Ryuujin, I think this idea is less than organic, probably in much the same way you dislike fitting the Aquaeridian colonists into the same region as Thalos and Lynn (which I still think could work in theory, but does require some fussiness in explaining how their neighbors interacted with New Empyrea's wars against elemental evil, or why they didn't, and worrying if the Thalosians and Lynnians are descendants of the Aquaeridian colonists and when they might have split). There are any number of ways of explaining why a people might be inclined to make the journey from Shaofeng to Ryuujin without colonizing much or any of the intervening terrain, specially in a fantastic setting where plot devices like magical portals are available, but it's not very intuitive. Such a "patchwork quilt" of cultures, with real-world equivalents arranged in arbitrary rather than logical patterns on the map, reminds me of what I don't like about the Known World/Mystara setting.

    More likely, Oerth's Ainu equivalents would've been pushed out by the Olman/Zahindi hybrids. The Shaofeng people (who are probably Baklunish, since their region is supposed to be the Baklunish homeland) are just too far away to be relevant. While Japan is insular, they still have many cultural similarities with the Chinese and Koreans, including some similar foods, religious ideas, and a written language based on the Chinese one. I would think any ideas that made their way from Shaofeng to Ryuujin would be heavily mediated by the intervening cultures, just as the ideas that made their way between India and Japan were heavily mediated by China.

    In Tal Meta's Sunela, the "Niphonese" are trading partners and rivals of the Sunelans.

    That doesn't mean Oerth can't have a Japan, but I'd put it closer to Shaofeng. "Dragons Island" in the middle of the Celestial Sea would be an excellent candidate for a Japan parallel. It could even be called Ryuujin, since Dragon #277 wasn't precise about where Ryuujin was. Many have assumed it's the same as "Nippon," but that need not be the case.

    Quote:
    I haven't seen anything so far that suggests that there aren't demihumans in these areas. I agree to a point with what you say, but I also find it a little lacking when standard euro-elves/dwarves/etc are dropped into exotic cultures with little to no changes. (I'm looking at you, Dragonlance!)


    Although Dragonlance's continent of Taladas has some somewhat interesting Mongolian-style elves.

    As with the hypothetical Shaofeng migration into Ryuujin (or the Hydranian Isles, as Erik Mona named them in "Bounds of Oerk"), there are any of number of possible excuses for getting elves into Erypt. There could be an isolated community of mystical desert monks inspired by a religious vision. There could be an ancient branch of the elven race who moved there as nomads even before the humans and founded the first civilization in the region, eventually ruling over all local races as god-kings for thousands of years before human rebels allied with drow assassins and infighting between the monarchy and theocracy resulted in them being deposed, but still both revered and despised as fallen gods by the common folk. Or maybe the elves never migrated in that direction, and instead there is a race of magically adept fire-worshiping lizard men with hides like gila monsters, or a race of civilized gnolls, or a race of hawk-headed avians, or a race of blue-skinned, six-armed androgynes or ebon-skinned giants. Or all of those. The explanation why there are no elves there could be as simple as "elves don't like deserts, lol," or involve an ancient treaty between neighboring elves and an ancient indigenous people that followed a ruinous war.

    In Erik Mona's "Bounds of Oerik," "Erypt" or its vicinity was the location of the theocracy of Tsing-Chu.

    Erik Mona wrote:
    In fact, many of the Suhfang colonies south of the great bay that intersects southwest Oerik are almost wholly independent from this rule, despite the wishes of the greater government. Most prominent of these is the large theocracy known as Tsing-Chu.

    There, a devoted caste of priests diligently follow the teachings of the god Khuzkan (a complicated figure who may or not be Pelor under a different guise), who implores them to scour the world, rewarding the actions of kind men and the dispatching of evil. Of course, Khuzar conceptions of evil often vary significantly from the morality of the rest of western Oerik (especially in the realms south of the Vanian Confederation), and this alone has been the cause of several prolonged disputes. The justice of Khuzar priests is swift and unflinching, and few understand what is happening to them before their sentence has been carried out.

    Another spur in the side of Tsing-Chu's neighbors are the Tsongs, large groups of malign humans exiled from their homelands. These men and women prey upon the shipping lanes of the southwest, and are an annoyance to the people of the south, who view them both as a subtle diplomatic weapon employed by the rulers of Tsing-Chu and as proof that the "sentencing" of the Khuzar priests is often less strict within the nation's own borders than it is without.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:11 pm  

    Well we don't actually know the canon height of the mountains on that peninsula, but I doubt they're uniformly impassable. Also, I believe the descriptions of Behow and Sa'Han describe an opening in the mountains between Zahind and Shaofeng or between Shaofeng and the Baklunish West or the Sea of Dust. It's also a long enough mountain range that there could be more than a few passes on the peninsula that a group of people could pass through from Shaofeng.

    Also, I believe that the Gord the Rogue novels describe a "sallow-skinned" ("sallow" being an adjective for yellow) people in Suhfang that don't resemble the Baklunish very much. They'd more likely be another ethnic group, probably the same as the people of Mur.

    I do believe that the Ryuujin name was meant to replace Nippon. "Nippon" is what the people of Japan actually call their nation (the name "Japan" is an exonym derived from a Portugese translation of a Chinese name for the nation). "Ryuujin" is a Japanese dragon sea deity, that is also believed to be the ancestor of the first Emperor of Japan. It's a better fantasy name for the island than "Nippon", and also ties into the "Sea of the Dragon King."

    As for Tal-Meta's Sunelan coast, while I do find it very well-done, it is completely fan-made (i.e. "fanon"), so I tend to give it a "back seat" to the published stuff, even apocryphal works. Not to say it can't be made to fit there, but if published stuff contradicts Tal-Meta's work, I believe the published stuff should supersede it.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3108
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:34 pm  

    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    Well we don't actually know the canon height of the mountains on that peninsula, but I doubt they're uniformly impassable.


    My point wasn't that they're impassable, just that they're one more obstacle among many, many obstacles between two parts of the world that wouldn't obviously have anything to do with each other.

    As I said, there's no question you could explain such a migration if you were determined to do so, but it's less than intuitive that Ryuujin would share more in common culturally with the Celestial Imperium than it
    does with its neighbors.

    Quote:
    Also, I believe that the Gord the Rogue novels describe a "sallow-skinned" ("sallow" being an adjective for yellow) people in Suhfang


    The Baklunish are described as golden-skinned, and the people of Ket are described as sometimes having pale yellow skin. Considering that the various Mongolian equivalents in the Flanaess (Wolf and Tiger Nomads and the Paynims) are Baklunish, it seems likely that Oerth's "Chinese" are Baklunish as well.

    There can certainly be other distinctive phenotypes west of the Baklunish lands (and the people of Mur are evidently one of these), but even if the Baklunish ethnicity isn't the only ethnicity in Shaofeng (some Oeridian and Suloise admixture is also likely in some areas), there should certainly be a Baklunish element there.

    Quote:
    I do believe that the Ryuujin name was meant to replace Nippon.


    I also think that was probably the intent. However, there's the question of how reasonable that identification is, considering where those islands are and what cultures surround them.

    Quote:
    As for Tal-Meta's Sunelan coast, while I do find it very well-done, it is completely fan-made (i.e. "fanon"), even apocryphal works. Not to say it can't be made to fit there, but if published stuff contradicts Tal-Meta's work, I believe the published stuff should supersede it.


    Oh, agreed, but I'm not sure what it contradicts. There's little or no published or even apocryphal material on that region, and even the "Ryuujin" identification is uncertain. Mostly we just have a series of names (Zindia, Jahind, Changar, Mulwar, Jahur) and the assumption that the blue-black-skinned nomads in the southwest Sea of Dust come from that region. Tal Meta's work can probably fit in the region without contradicting any of that. Perhaps the names from Sea of Death could be pre-Suel names for the nations, still commonly used by the non-Suloise natives.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:00 pm  

    I always saw the Paynims as more like the Persians when they were under Mongol rule, rather than full-blooded Mongolian, but that's me splitting hairs Laughing

    I still think that Shaofeng/Suhfang was intended to have a separate ethnic group, but interaction/influence with Baklunish peoples is still a given, based on their proximity. It also explains OJ #26's placement of Hitaxia.

    While it's true there's practically no canon on Zahind, there is some apocrypha -- the names of Behow, Mulwar, Changal, Chomur from the Gord the Rogue novels and their locations bordering the Sea of Dust; The "Zindia" name and brief description from the infamous Dragon Annual map, and I also consider Roger Moore's "India-Greyhawk style" to be apocrypha since he posted it on TSR's AOL page while he was still employed there. I don't think that stuff works with a present-day Suel Imperium leftover in the same location, although it's been a long time since I've read Tal-Meta's stuff.

    Personally, I think the old Suel Imperium should remain a thing of the past, a long-dead empire whose only remnants are the Scarlet Brotherhood, but I can't deny the potential in Tal-Meta's stuff. I've toyed with the idea of maybe having it to the SE of the Gord novel nations or perhaps they were the names of the nations during a time when the Suel Imperium had subjugated the region.

    I kind of view Zahind as basically Roger Moore's stuff being like the Mauryan Empire period of India; then the region was subjugated by the Suel as mentioned in Erik's article, much like the early Vedic period when the Aryan people subjugated the Indus Valley civilization; then the Suel occupation ends after the Rain of Colorless Fire and the Zahindi people reassert control, but they are not unified anymore, so the region then resembles the Middle Kingdoms period of India.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3108
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:21 pm  

    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    I always saw the Paynims as more like the Persians when they were under Mongol rule, rather than full-blooded Mongolian, but that's me splitting hairs Laughing


    The problem with that is that the Wolf and Tiger Nomads are descended from Paynims, and they're pretty clearly Mongol in inspiration. However, the Paynims themselves are of mixed inspiration, with their titles including shahs and padishahs as well as orakhans, ilkhans, and tarkhans. So they're not straightforwardly Mongols, but they include Mongols.

    Quote:
    It also explains OJ #26's placement of Hitaxia.


    Holy crap, I didn't even realize OJ #26 had been released. Downloads it.

    Oh look, it's got the "Bounds of the Oerth" article I was referencing. Haha, I only had it in an ancient .rtf file that Theocrat had made. This is a much nicer format.

    Oh, I see the map in that issue puts Tal Meta's nations to the south of the Sea of Death pseudo-Indian nations. It's kind of weird that it made Zahind a separate nation, and accidentally included two completely different Jahinds, though.

    There's quite a lot wrong with that map, actually. Ryuujin is, from the description, the same place as the Hydrianian Islands (which are east of the peninsula, not west), and the Island of Slith and the Skull Islands should be on the east side too.


    Last edited by rasgon on Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:32 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    I always saw the Paynims as more like the Persians when they were under Mongol rule, rather than full-blooded Mongolian, but that's me splitting hairs Laughing


    The problem with that is that the Wolf and Tiger Nomads are descended from Paynims, and they're pretty clearly Mongol in inspiration. However, the Paynims themselves are of mixed inspiration, with their titles including shahs and padishahs as well as orakhans, ilkhans, and tarkhans. So they're not straightforwardly Mongols, but they include Mongols.

    Quote:
    It also explains OJ #26's placement of Hitaxia.


    Holy crap, I didn't even realize OJ #26 had been released. Downloads it.

    Oh look, it's got the "Bounds of the Oerth" article I was referencing. Haha, I only had it in an ancient .rtf file that Theocrat had made. This is a much nicer format.

    Oh, I see the map in that issue puts Tal Meta's nations to the south of the Sea of Death pseudo-Indian nations.
    I thought you knew already Laughing

    Yeah OJ #26 had some good ideas on incorporating all of that stuff: basically put it all on that peninsula.

    It does create a weirdness in placing African-like nations there, far away from Hepmonaland's Touv. I've been trying to think of a way to explain that, but that's a whole other thread. Wink
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:47 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    Oh, I see the map in that issue puts Tal Meta's nations to the south of the Sea of Death pseudo-Indian nations. It's kind of weird that it made Zahind a separate nation, and accidentally included two completely different Jahinds, though.

    There's quite a lot wrong with that map, actually. Ryuujin is, from the description, the same place as the Hydrianian Islands (which are east of the peninsula, not west), and the Island of Slith and the Skull Islands should be on the east side too.


    It can't really be exactly like Erik's old article, as that is more a description of the lands of Yarth: http://conclave27.blogspot.com/2010/08/greyhawk-yarth.html

    I believe at the time he wrote that article (1996 I think?) he was missing one of the books, which is probably the one that shows Yarth's very different Flanaess. The map in that article above replaces the Tilvanot Peninsula and Hepmonaland on Yarth's world. I have no problem with OJ #26 placing them in alternate locations for Oerth. ;)
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3108
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:59 pm  

    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    Yeah OJ #26 had some good ideas on incorporating all of that stuff: basically put it all on that peninsula.


    That's awfully cramped. Fex must be the world's tiniest desert.

    It would be better to move the "African" nations across the Crimson Sea/Sea of Rage, south of Erypt (which is a vast empty region with plenty of room). You can't really have an Egypt-parallel without putting an African parallel upstream, or oughtn't to.

    The Touv aren't exactly Africans anyway, and there's plenty of room for Wuga/Tanzula/Fex/Zymbia/Kush Kavi/Hutaxia/Nuxes to be distinctively different from them. I wouldn't assume any connection at all between the two peoples.

    OJ #26's Sunela solution is kind of incoherent, too, but I suppose figuring out how Erik Mona's ideas and Tal Meta's ideas might fit together was beyond the scope of the article.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3108
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:24 pm  

    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    It can't really be exactly like Erik's old article, as that is more a description of the lands of Yarth: http://conclave27.blogspot.com/2010/08/greyhawk-yarth.html


    I know; I've actually linked to that website before.

    I know the limitations Duicarthan was working with when he made the map, but I think it would've been better if he hadn't tried to squish things so much, particularly when there was all kinds of vacant land available on the other side of the sea.

    This is what Erik said at the time:

    Erik Mona wrote:
    Having said that, there is a fairly major part of research that I have neglected. I have only been able to locate the first, third and fourth (of four) Hero's Challenge books. While this might seem like a minor problem, that book describes Sagard's journey from Ratik (where the entire first book is told) to some southern realm. I've decided where _I_ want to put these lands in my own campaign, and really the only place they _could_ go, in light of certain maps included in the gamebooks, but the second Sagard book, if I ever find it, may prove me wrong.

    Just to allay some fears, it seems pretty obvious that the Sagard novels are meant to be set on Oerth. If this is not the case, and they take place on Yarth, as mentioned by Gygax himself in Polyhedron, that world has at least a dozen countries that are almost exact matches, and calls itself Oerth, as well. I have no doubts that Gygax _meant_ to set his books there. He also _meant_ to publish the City of Greyhawk, Castle Greyhawk, Shadowrealm, and about a hundred other projects. Oh well.


    It could be that, as your cited website suggested, there was a Sagard book with a map of a very different Flanaess, but I don't think that's actually what happened. Rather, I think the first book clearly took place on "our" Oerth, and later books took place on a rather different world without bothering to explain the transition, except to say that the new lands were south of the lands in the previous, more specifically Greyhawk book.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:57 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    It can't really be exactly like Erik's old article, as that is more a description of the lands of Yarth: http://conclave27.blogspot.com/2010/08/greyhawk-yarth.html


    I know; I've actually linked to that website before.
    *facepalm* Embarassed

    Quote:
    I know the limitations Duicarthan was working with when he made the map, but I think it would've been better if he hadn't tried to squish things so much, particularly when there was all kinds of vacant land available on the other side of the sea.
    That's a fair point, although that peninsula is bigger than Hepmonaland, so it isn't necessarily all that squished.

    rasgon wrote:
    It could be that, as your cited website suggested, there was a Sagard book with a map of a very different Flanaess, but I don't think that's actually what happened. Rather, I think the first book clearly took place on "our" Oerth, and later books took place on a rather different world without bothering to explain the transition, except to say that the new lands were south of the lands in the previous, more specifically Greyhawk book.
    Hard for me to say, since I've never even read the Sagard books, but if Gygax said at the time that they were written that they were set on a parallel world, I think it's easier to go with that, especially since there's nowhere on the Oerth map that matches the Sagard maps. Then again, I've noticed that Gygax had a tendency to change his stance on things after the fact without really acknowledging the change, so it's hard to say. Honestly, I think he did a lot of stuff on the fly, which is probably why we never saw a true published version of his Castle Greyhawk. He may have very well did this with the Sagard books--set the first one or two on Oerth and then decide later that it should be a different world.

    rasgon wrote:
    The Touv aren't exactly Africans anyway, and there's plenty of room for Wuga/Tanzula/Fex/Zymbia/Kush Kavi/Hutaxia/Nuxes to be distinctively different from them. I wouldn't assume any connection at all between the two peoples.
    I see plenty of parallels between the Touv and several African cultures: the cattle herding, iron-working, lack of interest in sea-travel, egalitarian societies, and general hatred of snakes all remind me of cultures such as the Maasai, Zulu and Sotho peoples, although it's not a perfect match (but then the Oeridians are not perfect replicas of European cultures either). Anyway, Hepmonaland's Touv are just one culture, and Africa has a whole diverse group of people as varied as Asia or Europe. I think there could be different Touv societies elsewhere on Oerth, and maybe they traveled to Hepmonaland in the distant past and ended up stranded there by the treacherous coastal currents.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:56 pm  

    I managed to find 4 maps from the Sagard game-books. It seems only one of them, presumably the first, matches Oerth's geography correctly:

    https://goo.gl/photos/psQHavGDDBfLq9a76

    After that, things start to veer off from Greyhawk canon. This map has the Hydranian Isles just off the coast of Ratik:

    https://goo.gl/photos/3THYKC6ZxuBvHrWP9

    Then as the books move south from Ratik, the North Kingdom is indeed replaced as that blog stated:

    https://goo.gl/photos/XK7T8SJF6oQVjpq88

    And finally we get lands that are completely different than the Flanaess:

    https://goo.gl/photos/JKqQfoEvf92Fjjv8A

    So even if Gygax and Dille did originally intend for the Sagard books to be on Oerth, they seemed to have changed their minds about halfway through, probably because Oerth's level of magic was too high for the Conan-like feel they wanted to replicate.


    Last edited by Bluebomber4evr on Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Fri Jan 27, 2012 7:34 pm  

    Okay, this has veered way off! Back to the Empire of Lynn! Cool

    I'll list some people and creatures, since I've done all the locations I could find:

    Atlanteans: like the fairy tales for children, the history of this now-vanished people is recounted to all magician's apprentices to frighten them. Everyone is familiar with the history of this people fully turned to the study of magic. It is even said that certain Atlantean Archmages mastered the ultimate magic, or Demiurge magic. In their thirst for power, they generated the Dream of Arch-démiurge Lord. The history ends with the Great Dreamer destroying this whole civilization in a single night and burying the island of Atlantis under a gigantic tidal wave. What is not said, however, is that a few Atlanteans survived and even now continue this mad quest to control the ultimate magic. To symbolize their existence in both the physical and magical worlds, Atlanteans paint half of their bodies blue.

    (I think the name Atlantis/Atlantean can be replaced with Atalya/Atalyan from Dragon #214)


    Dracomorph:
    https://goo.gl/photos/HzBo5j31c3ByL3nJ9
    Dracomorphs are inhabitants of Sysigie who have developed the uncanny ability to transform into dragons. While in human form, the dracomorph's body is covered in scales that could pass as armor. As the body transforms, these scales grow to make it take the form of a large dragon.

    Chiards: Chiards are giant trolls. Magical Creations, these creatures reach up to three meters high and are equipped with a force that is matched only by their stupidity. The chiards serve in the armed forces where they are trained by the Chiard-masters, which they obey like domesticated animals. Nevertheless, the chiards will not remain in a elite troupe and serve more as cannon fodder in relation to their extreme resistance, rather than their brute strength.

    Dzorak:
    https://goo.gl/photos/3yfu6dxWL3tKzaZh7
    The dzorak is a terrible monster, a survivor of the lost ages in which the Harkhange of Kaos ( Question ) still reigned. This horror with indescribable forms counts among most powerful of the known world. The overwhelming force of its tentacles can kill a dragon. These giant krakens live in remote lands, preferring the atmosphere of festering swamps. Their noxious gas-filled bodies allow them to fly.

    Cthonic Horror:
    https://goo.gl/photos/u7vHSQU8VTx5nLe48
    These putrescent corpses, possessed by lower devils, deform little by little under the influence of magic essences to form creatures bristling with claws, fangs and the other bony protuberances. These monstrosities are often invoked by warlocks and very rarely by necromancers who prefer a greater army of undead rather than powerful creatures.

    Imperial Leviathans:
    https://goo.gl/photos/y8pDMGaB4RTLnXaM7
    These titanic pachyderms are trained by the imperial army to face the giants and other colossal creatures. Though they are not particularly aggressive, these behemoths are extremely resistant to damage, and it is the soldiers that ride on their backs that do all of the fighting. Insensitive for the most part to external attacks, it takes ten highly trained men to handle the beast's reins, which are heavy iron chains (made by dwarves).

    Shadrakkh:
    https://goo.gl/photos/rJNvta1nyYzwSbqX9
    This brutal magical creature is comparable with a dragon in power but is however much more wild. Only Baron Greldinard of Moork is known to have tamed one. Unlike other creatures, the shadrakkh has no armor, but instead has a protective magical field which also allows it to fly. This allows it to transform its own body into a projectile.

    There's also some information about alternate mounts aside from horses, such as giant praying mantises and prehistoric-looking creatures:
    https://goo.gl/photos/QKBmJ1uHAwHNuxVF6
    https://goo.gl/photos/AqptSbagXg9A2ZUm8


    Last edited by Bluebomber4evr on Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3108
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:01 am  

    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    I managed to find 4 maps from the Sagard game-books.


    Oh, cool. Nice find.

    It looks to me like the first book took place on Oerth, and then the two authors veered rapidly into an alternate reality. Perhaps Flint Dille didn't want to be constrained by Gygax's world.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 01, 2007
    Posts: 698
    From: NOW IN Cape May, NJ! Loving the new digs!

    Send private message
    Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:15 pm  
    People and creatures of Lhynn

    Wow ... Blue Bomber, you seem to have this store of really amazing stuff! I was about to suggest that we try to take it back to Lhynn too, but, you brought it back to the OP with this amazing artwork! This is the kind of stuff that really makes a setting feel different. It makes me wish that I could afford those French comic books. I would just stare at all the art! :) Being a Freelance Artist myself, I tend to geek-out on art! Laughing

    So, The Atlanteans: ... I'm not entirely certain how I feel about including Atlantis in the GH mythos. I mean, there really shouldn't be anything wrong with it, ultimately. It's not all that much different than the Isles of Woe. But, that's why I am hesitant ... because it *is* so similar to the Isles of Woe. An ancient city sunken beneath the waves. ... and the Ultimate Magic stuff makes me think of Epic Level spell-casting "seeds" which is good, I think.

    Dracomorphs are kind of cool ... they seem bizarrely powerful, and oddly reminiscent of a were-dragon. But, Meh, like I said - this is the stuff that makes settings cool.

    I love the idea of Chiards ... Giants and trolls have always been related, but, Giant Trolls!! WOW!!

    The Imperial Leviathans ... These put me in the mind of the horde of invaders that came in LotR that ere riding great, terrible pachyderms. I like these even better, because they're more unique. In fact, I like a lot of the monstrous creatures you show here because of that ... they're unique. They really give a feeling to the setting making it not just another fantasy setting that is so much like all of the others.
    _________________
    Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com
    Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal
    Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com
    Display posts from previous:   
       Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion All times are GMT - 8 Hours
    [ 1, 2  Next]
    Page 1 of 2

    Jump to:  

    You cannot post new topics in this forum
    You cannot reply to topics in this forum
    You cannot edit your posts in this forum
    You cannot delete your posts in this forum
    You cannot vote in polls in this forum


    Forums ©


    Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises

    Contact the Webmaster.  Long Live Spidasa!


    Greyhawk Gothic Font by Darlene Pekul is used under the Creative Commons License.

    PHP-Nuke Copyright © 2005 by Francisco Burzi. This is free software, and you may redistribute it under the GPL. PHP-Nuke comes with absolutely no warranty, for details, see the license.
    Page Generation: 0.44 Seconds