Signup
Welcome to... Canonfire! World of GreyhawK
One of the founders of our hobby and one of the most unsung contributors to Dungeons & Dragons, Len Lakofka has passed away at the age of 76.
Along with the many adventures, classes, spells, and rules he created,
Len was also father of the Suel in Greyhawk, designer of their gods, and namesake of the Lendore Isles.
The value of his work goes without saying, but his presence will be sorely missed. The adventures of Leomund go on.
Len Lakofka 1944-2020
[DISCUSS]
Features
Touring the Flanaess
Cities of
Oerth
Deadly Denizens
Greyhawk Wiki
#greytalk
JOIN THE CHAT
ON DISCORD
    Canonfire :: View topic - Empire of Lynn, Tharquish Empire, etc.
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    Empire of Lynn, Tharquish Empire, etc. [ Previous  1, 2]
    Author Message
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3108
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:03 pm  

    I mentioned Atalya (David Howery's D&D version of Atlantis from Dragon #214) in several places in the monsters of Oerth thread, actually.

    In the carnivorous ape entry:
    Quote:
    Before the continent of Atalya sunk beneath the Solnor Ocean ten millennia ago, it built colonies on the eastern coast of Hepmonaland. When the ocean drank their homeland, the stranded Atalyans walled themselves off from the rest of their new continent, shutting off their lives and gene pools from outside influences. For countless generations they remained in their walled cities, breeding their males to be fierce protectors and their females to be wise administrators, until male Atalyans had become degenerate brutes scarcely distinguishable from the gorillas who roamed the forests outside. As the millennia turned and some of the few remaining Atalyan cities crumbled due to external attack or internal revolution, the degenerate, ape-like Atalyans spread into the jungle, seemingly little different from the true apes, though larger and smarter, and used to eating meat.


    And in the dolphin entry:

    Quote:
    The lost continent of Atalya, myths say, sank not all at once but in stages. After the bulk of the land disappeared beneath the Solnor Ocean, cursed by the most ancient gods, an archipelago remained. Called Olefin or, occasionally, Procanis, these bright isles lasted for another age before they were doomed by the experiments of the Elder Elves. The Sinking Isle in the Bay of Gates is the last remnant of this land, legends say.

    There are human myths that claim that when the continent of Atalya sank beneath the Solnor Ocean, its inhabitants, praying to the gods of ocean for salvation, became dolphins, sleek, tailed, and finned. Drawmij has opined that the dolphin ancestors were related to the quaggoths who once dominated Telchuria before the polar axis shifted; Drawmij believes that quaggoths were the first and most primal race of mammalian humanoids. Most other sages assume the cetecean ancestors were more like giant beavers in form.


    This is all myth and legend, not to be read as objective fact, but the point is that I saw it as a continent that existed in the Solnor Ocean, of which the Sinking Isle was a much later remnant. The Chronicle of the Black Moon backstory could easily fit in.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Oct 07, 2008
    Posts: 377


    Send private message
    Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:48 pm  
    New E...

    Based on the ideas that New Emperya is/was hidden and the equator found on the JG maps, and the New Emperya map which only covers a fraction of the continent, I placed that fraction of the continent on the equator in the middle of the two oceans.



    ...though for some reason my Google Earth program keeps making it smaller than the streched area I made it which of course should cross the equator. I'm talking about that green patch in the lower right at the N10 degree line...which puts it due south of Fireland.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Sun Jan 29, 2012 1:35 pm  
    Re: New E...

    rasgon wrote:
    I mentioned Atalya (David Howery's D&D version of Atlantis from Dragon #214) in several places in the monsters of Oerth thread, actually.
    Yep, I saw your posts and it made me think the Black Moon Chronicles Atlanteans could be from there. Happy

    Raymond wrote:
    Based on the ideas that New Emperya is/was hidden and the equator found on the JG maps, and the New Emperya map which only covers a fraction of the continent, I placed that fraction of the continent on the equator in the middle of the two oceans.



    ...though for some reason my Google Earth program keeps making it smaller than the streched area I made it which of course should cross the equator. I'm talking about that green patch in the lower right at the N10 degree line...which puts it due south of Fireland.
    That makes sense, though I don't get the feel that the area is tropical in R1-4/I12
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3108
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:32 pm  
    Re: New E...

    Raymond wrote:
    Based on the ideas that New Emperya is/was hidden and the equator found on the JG maps, and the New Emperya map which only covers a fraction of the continent, I placed that fraction of the continent on the equator in the middle of the two oceans.


    Frank Mentzer has said that Aquaria/New Empyrea was based on the "Valon" area in the Judges Guild maps (and it is, the geography and even the place names are more or less identical), which is actually as far north as the map gets, on the top row of the map. I'd say it's about the same latitude as the Thillonrian Peninsula, which I guess gives some support to the idea of putting it in Fireland.

    This is Aquaria:

    This is the northern half of the Judges Guild realm of the Wilderlands. You can see the "Aquaria" region on the very top of it, in the center just to the east of the central sea:



    Source: Wilderlands Maps
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:26 pm  

    Yeah, I'm starting to think Fireland is the best location for Aquaria now, too. The climate is right, the size is fairly large--large enough to be considered a continent, and it's in the right direction--east of the Flanaess.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Oct 07, 2008
    Posts: 377


    Send private message
    Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:32 am  
    JG Map with Equator

    But I didn't get the impression that it was that far north from the JG map:

    [img]http://www.acaeum.com/jg/ModPhotos/WMT1978a.html[/img]
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3108
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:40 am  
    Re: JG Map with Equator

    Raymond wrote:
    But I didn't get the impression that it was that far north from the JG map:



    It's on the very top of that map, though (area 5, and just above it), about the same latitude as Blackmoor. That seems pretty far north to me. It's about as far north as the Ament Tundra is south.

    I guess by the map scale it's not that far north, but it depends on how big the planet is.

    (Note that to post an image, you have to put the image file in between the [img] tags, not the name of the webpage. The image file will have a suffix like .jpg or .gif or .png, while the webpage will have a suffix like html.)
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 16, 2010
    Posts: 19
    From: TregMallin

    Send private message
    Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:23 pm  
    Re: JG Map with Equator

    rasgon wrote:
    Raymond wrote:
    But I didn't get the impression that it was that far north from the JG map:



    It's on the very top of that map, though (area 5, and just above it), about the same latitude as Blackmoor. That seems pretty far north to me. It's about as far north as the Ament Tundra is south.

    I guess by the map scale it's not that far north, but it depends on how big the planet is.

    (Note that to post an image, you have to put the image file in between the [img] tags, not the name of the webpage. The image file will have a suffix like .jpg or .gif or .png, while the webpage will have a suffix like html.)


    Is there anything analogous to the Gulf Stream that might keep it warmer than the latitude would otherwise suggest?
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 07, 2004
    Posts: 1830
    From: Mt. Smolderac

    Send private message
    Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:17 pm  
    Re: JG Map with Equator

    TregMallin wrote:
    Is there anything analogous to the Gulf Stream that might keep it warmer than the latitude would otherwise suggest?


    If it's Fireland how about the ton of freakin' volcanoes? Smile Seriously though, the western portion of the Dramidj is "strangely warm" so Fireland could be getting the same thing.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:30 pm  
    Re: JG Map with Equator

    smillan_31 wrote:
    TregMallin wrote:
    Is there anything analogous to the Gulf Stream that might keep it warmer than the latitude would otherwise suggest?


    If it's Fireland how about the ton of freakin' volcanoes? Smile Seriously though, the western portion of the Dramidj is "strangely warm" so Fireland could be getting the same thing.
    Yeah, if Fireland is analagous to Iceland, vulcanism alone would be enough to make it habitable. Then again, since this is D&D there can also be gates to the Elemental Plane of Fire, magical enchantments keeping the place warm, and so on in addition to natural geothermal/volcanic activity.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Oct 07, 2008
    Posts: 377


    Send private message
    Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:57 am  
    Right File Extention Now

    Here is the map with Blackmoor:
    http://www.acaeum.com/jg/ModPhotos/1978a.jpg

    Here is a later map which shows how long is 100 miles:
    http://www.acaeum.com/jg/ModPhotos/1980b.jpg
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Oct 07, 2008
    Posts: 377


    Send private message
    Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:04 am  
    Whoops

    I see now they both do. I only needed to display one map.

    In any case, to try and get a ball-park idea of the scale, I used Paint to chop out the 100 mile distance, turn it 90 degrees and paste the 100 mile arrow from top to bottom. Then I tried to figure how how big that should be on my Google Earth program and bam, I've got the Central Western Region of the Continent of Aquaria...and I can only assume that if that is the Central Western Region, then I'm missing Central Eastern, Northwestern, Northeastern, Southwestern, and Southeastern regions and I can pull from a later JG map for those. Even if Mentzer's own map doesn't follow the rest of the JG map, it's all I've got for now.
    Forum Moderator

    Joined: Feb 26, 2004
    Posts: 2569
    From: Ullinois

    Send private message
    Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:20 pm  

    Wow, my concept of Beyond the Flanaess keeps spiraling the more I read this thread. So the OJ#26 map needs errata'd? Ugh. And it looks like hopefully through this discussion someone will be able to consolodate all this new/old info into a more coherent Oerth map. Keep it up, guys.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3108
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:44 am  

    mortellan wrote:
    So the OJ#26 map needs errata'd?


    Well, not necessarily. That map was a compromise, and it wasn't an unreasonable one. My suggestions aren't necessarily any better.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 10, 2003
    Posts: 1234
    From: New Jersey

    Send private message
    Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:28 am  

    Mort,

    With all this geography going on makes Ull feel nice, safe, and toasty. Laughing

    Later

    Argon
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Oct 10, 2001
    Posts: 225
    From: NC

    Send private message
    Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:11 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    This is all myth and legend, not to be read as objective fact, but the point is that I saw it as a continent that existed in the Solnor Ocean, of which the Sinking Isle was a much later remnant. The Chronicle of the Black Moon backstory could easily fit in.


    Now I have to find that DRAGON Anthology CD-ROM ;)

    For what it's worth, in my game The Sinking Isle, Turucambi, and ruins beneath the Jungle of Lost Ships all hold similar designs and artifacts. They bear an uncanny resemblance to items found in the ruins on Kule (Celene).
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3108
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:22 pm  

    The Dragon article is much more extensive, portraying the continent at various stages of its existence and leaving open the possibility that it's still around. I was mostly just using it as a name to conjure with. I like the idea of Oerth having it because no other setting has claimed it, and all of David Howery's other articles were set on his version of Oerth.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Sat Feb 04, 2012 6:27 pm  

    mortellan wrote:
    Wow, my concept of Beyond the Flanaess keeps spiraling the more I read this thread. So the OJ#26 map needs errata'd? Ugh. And it looks like hopefully through this discussion someone will be able to consolodate all this new/old info into a more coherent Oerth map. Keep it up, guys.
    I wouldn't say it needs errata, although I'm now starting to think that the peninsula in that article is probably not the best place for those locations. It's probably best if that whole peninsula, or at least most of it, is part of the Shaofeng Empire. This would make for a clear "organic" (as Rasgon puts it Wink ) path for that ethnic group to the island of Ryuujin.

    Since the Sagard the Barbarian/Yarth locations are actually very small (they take up basically the same amount of space as the Great Kingdom and Tilvanot Peninsula on Oerth), they can easily be placed elsewhere, perhaps in the very south of Western Oerik, although there's no way to make the geography exactly as it is written in Erik Mona's old writeup, but that's because he wrongly assumed the Sagard books took place on Oerth, when in fact they did not (because he was missing the second book where this becomes clear).
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3108
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:04 pm  

    My biggest problem with the fit is that Fex is supposed to be in a desert, and there really isn't room for a desert there of any consequence. The desert that Duicarthan put on his map makes the Bright Desert look like the Sahara. That's more of a large sandy beach than a desert. It looks like that might have been a problem in the original Sagard books too, though.

    You could expand Shaofeng to fill the entire peninsula, or you could just make Ryuujin be somewhere closer to Shaofeng. My preference would be the latter. I think there are better uses for the island chain off the coast of Zindia.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:34 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    My biggest problem with the fit is that Fex is supposed to be in a desert, and there really isn't room for a desert there of any consequence. The desert that Duicarthan put on his map makes the Bright Desert look like the Sahara. That's more of a large sandy beach than a desert. It looks like that might have been a problem in the original Sagard books too, though.
    Yeah, it's a problem with the Sagard books. It might be better to just keep all of those locations off of Oerth entirely and just leave them in Yarth. Trying to fit in a bunch of locations that were never supposed to be on Oerth in the first place seems to create more problems than it solves.

    rasgon wrote:
    You could expand Shaofeng to fill the entire peninsula, or you could just make Ryuujin be somewhere closer to Shaofeng. My preference would be the latter. I think there are better uses for the island chain off the coast of Zindia.
    I think that's taking too many liberties with the established map though. Even if it's not the best spot for a "GH-Japan," all of the published works (admittedly, not very many and scant on the details) put it there. The dreaded Dragon Annual map called it by a Japanese name and the brief description of "A densely populated island nation of fishermen, warriors, and poets" while not describing things that are exclusive to a Japanese culture, is a pretty concise description of Japan nonetheless. I find it easier to work with what we've been given than to rearrange everything, especially if it's to make room for something that's not supposed to be there anyway.

    If that entire peninsula is part of Shaofeng, then that island south of Zahind is close to Shaofeng. And it's an easy, straightforward explanation for why they're there.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:30 pm  

    Anyway! We've sidetracked again. Laughing

    Back to Lynn. Here's the write-up for the main villain, Haazheel Thorn. He'll need some tinkering to be fit for Oerth:

    Haazheel Thorn, excessively powerful machiavellian archmage:

    https://goo.gl/photos/7muysA1ybjyPC6dLA

    Haazheel Thorn is the living god of the Black Moon. Son of the Lord of Darkness, this high-powered archimage claims to be vassal of the emperor. He took up residence in the barony of Moork and is always followed by the baron.

    Wherever he goes, Haazheel Thorn remains in contact with his faithful worshipers. He won as well the possibility to perform a fate ritual as if he were a fate. (not sure what this means)

    Haazheel Thorn can instantly handle his religious empire through his priests who serve faithfully. Sitting in the Hall of a Thousand Prayers is a thousand priests who simultaneously assist by serving as both a thousand eyes and a thousand ears. Nothing more escapes then to his prodigious memory.

    In the Black Moon Chronicles, Haazheel Thorn is the son of Lucifer, and manipulates the main character, Wismerhill, into assassinating the Emperor of Lynn. Once that is done, he takes over the Empire and then tries to open the gates of Hell beneath the empire and establishing an infernal dominion over the world, while also disgusting God and destroying His works. He is defeated by Wismerhill, who had turned on Thorn once he realized Thorn's true intentions. Wismerhill manages to kill Thorn with the aid of the archmage Methraton, who manages to block the flow of power from Haazheel Thorn's temple on the moon, making him vulnerable to Wismerhill's attacks.

    I've been mulling over how to make Thorn's backstory work for Oerth. Froideval makes no distinction between demons and devils in his work, and often combines aspects of both in the story. While there is no Lucifer in the D&D game, there are several figures that could work: Graz'zt, Asmodeus, Astaroth, and Mephistopheles.

    Graz'zt being his father makes things complicated--it makes him brother to Iuz for one, but he's also then too similar to Iuz. I guess you could say such ambitions "run in the family," though.

    Astaroth is another suitable candidate, but he's supposedly dead.

    Mephistopheles works well, but I think Asmodeus works best. Thorn's plan to build a false cult to destroy the work of a good deity seems like something Asmodeus would do (especially in light of Chris Pramas' A Guide to Hell, a far superior work to Tyrants of the Nine Hells). It also differentiates him from Iuz, and gives the area another differentiation: while demons play a large role in both the Flanaess and the Sundered Empire, this gives devils a major role. It could even be explained in terms of the Blood War as the devils trying to catch up or head off the demons' presence on Oerth.


    Last edited by Bluebomber4evr on Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
    GreySage

    Joined: Jul 26, 2010
    Posts: 2519
    From: LG Dyvers

    Send private message
    Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:33 am  

    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    While there is no Lucifer in the D&D game, ...


    Actually...

    If I recall correctly, The Best of The Dragon #1 (don't recall the date, but it was the one with the red cover from back in the 80s) had a section giving background and stats for some real-world devils including Lucifer/Satan). So, if you really wanted to include him in Greyhawk, you could... Evil Grin

    SirXaris
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3108
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:59 am  

    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    Anyway! We've sidetracked again. Laughing


    Fair enough. I'll move the "Nippon" discussion over here.

    Quote:
    Astaroth is another suitable candidate, but he's supposedly dead.


    Astaroth was identified as the demon lord of prophecy in Fiendish Codex I. He'd be an interesting choice, but I wonder if you really meant him or Gargauth, the exiled archdevil who slew Astaroth and assumed his name. Gargauth is still alive, and would seem to me to be a more obvious candidate than the demon of prophets.

    Satan was mentioned in Alexander von Thorn's "The Politics of Hell" in Dragon #28, but that article was so divergent from later AD&D canon (Asmodeus only ruled Hell for the last hundred years, and Belial had long-ago abandoned it, for example) that I would ignore it. The version of Lucifer from Necromancer Games' Tome of Horrors would work better.

    I agree that Asmodeus works best, however.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Oct 07, 2008
    Posts: 377


    Send private message
    Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:55 am  
    Satan

    I thought Satan was in the MM, MM2, or FF?
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 01, 2007
    Posts: 698
    From: NOW IN Cape May, NJ! Loving the new digs!

    Send private message
    Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:10 pm  

    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    Anyway! We've sidetracked again. Laughing

    Back to Lynn. Here's the write-up for the main villain, Haazheel Thorn. He'll need some tinkering to be fit for Oerth ...
    Schweet! I've been waiting for something like this! I am going to read and re-read his writeup straightaway! I just wanted to post in here, to say that I'm glad that the thread is back on track with schweet-sweet Empire of Lynn goodness! That guy looks like a badass!

    Oh, and is the artist the one for the comic books? And is there more than one artist? Penciler/inker?
    _________________
    Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com
    Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal
    Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3108
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:44 pm  
    Re: Satan

    Raymond wrote:
    I thought Satan was in the MM, MM2, or FF?


    Nope. You must be thinking of the (explicitly unofficial) article in Dragon #28 and reprinted in The Best of The Dragon.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:50 am  

    Icarus wrote:
    Oh, and is the artist the one for the comic books? And is there more than one artist? Penciler/inker?
    Oliver Ledroit drew the first 5 graphic novels, and drew the covers for all 14 graphic novels. That drawing of Haazheel Thorn is from the cover of vol. 13.

    The interior art for volumes 6-14 was drawn by Cyril Pontet.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Oct 07, 2008
    Posts: 377


    Send private message
    Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:42 am  
    MM Had...

    I was thinking of Asmodeous. He's in the MM.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Oct 07, 2008
    Posts: 377


    Send private message
    Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:59 am  
    Information from JG Forum

    Someone explains that the old JG maps' equator isn't supposed to reprsent the middle of the planet. If I move eastern Rhadmanthia above the Oerth's equator, then I do get an area about where Europe is but it replaces Fireland. So maybe you want a cataclysm to turn an eastern Rhadmanthia into Fireland or keep Fireland and move Aquaria south and keep it "hidden." Of course anyone can do whatever they want, I'm just saying if that information helps you, great.

    http://necromancergames.yuku.com/topic/12417/master/1/

    http://www.necromancergames.com/images/misc/wl-density-sm.jpg

    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 12, 2001
    Posts: 462
    From: Ithaca, New York

    Send private message
    Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:13 pm  

    From your linked thread on Necromancer's boards...
    Quote:
    Another thing to think about is the gravity. If Ghenrek IV was the size of Rhadmanthia alone, it would be only a quarter of the size of Earth thus making it's gravitational acceleration 4 times greater than Earth's. This would be like walking around with 3 of you on your back at all times. Would not really be feasible :P


    :blink:
    What?

    And here I thought gravity had to do with mass, not speed....

    <sigh>

    You may resume the conversation now....
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 01, 2007
    Posts: 698
    From: NOW IN Cape May, NJ! Loving the new digs!

    Send private message
    Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:31 pm  
    Back on the Empire of Lynn

    So ... on the regularly scheduled topic:

    I was just looking back at the maps again, trying to reconcile the central region of where the Empire of Lynn; attempting to decide how to fit the North (Sundered Empire/Chainmail) and the South (Froideval's Dark Moon Chronicles) together seamlessly.
    And then I realized this: Is Ishtar mentioned anywhere else in canon? Or in Froideval's work? Grunkhadesh is the dwarven lava-place with the red stone, but it's never called the "Red Kingdom", right? And is the "Seameast" ever mentioned at all, other than by name? Tribes of the Enllaves?

    Is there anything about the geography of the "Southlands"? My personal idea is that there's a desert (obviously) but, the Northern people of the Sundered Empire don't really care what's beyond the Barren Desert, and so, it's vastly exaggerated on the Chainmail map because they don't really know what's beyond Drazen's Horde and the desert. ... so we can sort of reconcile the two geographically. Which would mean that a.) the whole place isn't a desert, and b.) more importantly, Lhynn isn't a desert. But ... let's see, you said that Lhynn has a coastline? Does it have to reach all the way to the mountains?

    This is all so confusing trying to piece it all together, but, I'm trying to get it all straight in my head.
    _________________
    Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com
    Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal
    Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 01, 2007
    Posts: 698
    From: NOW IN Cape May, NJ! Loving the new digs!

    Send private message
    Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:34 pm  
    Back on the Empire of Lynn

    [EDIT: Deleting double post]
    _________________
    Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com
    Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal
    Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com


    Last edited by Icarus on Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:52 am; edited 1 time in total
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:23 pm  
    Re: Back on the Empire of Lynn

    Icarus wrote:
    So ... on the regularly scheduled topic:

    I was just looking back at the maps again, trying to reconcile the central region of where the Empire of Lynn; attempting to decide how to fit the North (Sundered Empire/Chainmail) and the South (Froideval's Dark Moon Chronicles) together seamlessly.
    And then I realized this: Is Ishtar mentioned anywhere else in canon? Or in Froideval's work? Grunkhadesh is the dwarven lava-place with the red stone, but it's never called the "Red Kingdom", right? And is the "Seameast" ever mentioned at all, other than by name? Tribes of the Enllaves?

    Is there anything about the geography of the "Southlands"? My personal idea is that there's a desert (obviously) but, the Northern people of the Sundered Empire don't really care what's beyond the Barren Desert, and so, it's vastly exaggerated on the Chainmail map because they don't really know what's beyond Drazen's Horde and the desert. ... so we can sort of reconcile the two geographically. Which would mean that a.) the whole place isn't a desert, and b.) more importantly, Lhynn isn't a desert. But ... let's see, you said that Lhynn has a coastline? Does it have to reach all the way to the mountains?

    This is all so confusing trying to piece it all together, but, I'm trying to get it all straight in my head.
    Ishtar is in the Black Moon Chronicles, but isn't given much "screen time." If you look at this preview of vol. 10 on Amazon:

    http://www.amazon.com/Chroniques-Lune-noire-10-foudroy%C3%A9/dp/2205050044/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1329880379&sr=8-4#reader_2205050044

    Just before the first page it says "ŕ Ishtar" which is basically saying that the following scene is set there.

    As for the Red Kingdom, I'm not as convinced as I was when I started this thread that it's the same place as Ghrunkedash, although there's nothing to say it couldn't be. It's just kind of a long way from Lynn and supposedly the dwarves there do a lot of custom work for the empire, and supposedly the haunted ruins of Der Hem Selben are in the way.

    The Empire of Lynn does have a coastline, and two cities are on that coast: the capital city of Lhynn which has an enormous port, and Altenberg.

    The Empire of Lynn isn't a desert, but there is a desert south of the empire, and Lynn is supposed to share a border with Erypt/Khemit -- the Black Moon Cult gained favor in the Empire by retaking land from Erypt.

    Here's how I figure the borders are with the Chainmail stuff:

    https://goo.gl/photos/57NMu8WKB2KDjBEo7


    Last edited by Bluebomber4evr on Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 01, 2007
    Posts: 698
    From: NOW IN Cape May, NJ! Loving the new digs!

    Send private message
    Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:14 pm  
    Once more, to the map of Western Oerik

    When I look at this version of Western Oerik, Blue Bomber, the thing that runs through my head is that it seems to meet all of the requirements for borders and stuff, but, that it just seems to be an odd shape for the Empir of Lynn to be. I know that it's about trying to fit everything together, but, I think that there's another possibility, but I don't think that I know enough, yet. So ... okay, let me ask a couple of questions.
      Does the Empire have to have an Western coastline?
      Does the Empire have a canon adjacent border to Tharque?
      Is the Tribes of the Enllaves the location of the desert south of the Empire?

    The reason that I am asking is that I was wondering if the Free States can basically be left where they originally are, and make the Empire of Lyhnn push more toward Erypt? That could give it a coastline, and take Erypt out of the mountains - which is difficult to imagine an Egyptian mountain setting anyway.
    so ... The Barbarian Seameast and The Tribes ... I guess vast areas of uncontrolled land is difficult to imagine for me, but in non-European history, it happened fairly often. But, I always get the felling that these are more like descriptions of the area's inhabitants, more than it is a description of the national political structure or rulers in that region.

    Also ... how difficult would it be to reconcile the maps if one were to go by the Darmoon MMO map, and just say that Thalos and Lhynn take up geographicallly the same area, and one simply has to choose one or the other, essentially?

    Is the "Isle of Mephreton" mentioned by Gygax in the original post on this thread, the one off the coast of Erypt? Would this be the place where the order established by Methraton is situated? Is that an alternate spelling (or typo/error) by Gygax, or are the two names completely unrelated?

    Also ... on a completely other note: have we looked for anyway to contact the author, or the publishing company, to ask about buying a map, or where one might be located, or if there was one ever produced?
    _________________
    Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com
    Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal
    Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:16 pm  
    Re: Once more, to the map of Western Oerik

    The map I made was just for general reference. I'm not an expert map-maker or particularly good with graphics programs.

    Icarus wrote:

    Does the Empire have to have an Western coastline?
    I would say yes. A large empire needs at least one port, and removing the coastline changes too much about the empire. Go back and read the description of Lhynn--the Imperial Palace is also a giant lighthouse, etc. Better not to change the character of these locations
    Icarus wrote:
    Does the Empire have a canon adjacent border to Tharque?
    Yes. The Empire of Lynn used to be the largest part of the Tharque Empire, and now the Tharques are advancing on their borders. Also there's a big naval battle between Tharque and Lynn in the later chapters of the story.
    Icarus wrote:
    Is the Tribes of the Enllaves the location of the desert south of the Empire?
    So far as I know. I couldn't find anything about the Enllaves in the stuff I've found so far.

    Icarus wrote:
    The reason that I am asking is that I was wondering if the Free States can basically be left where they originally are, and make the Empire of Lyhnn push more toward Erypt? That could give it a coastline, and take Erypt out of the mountains - which is difficult to imagine an Egyptian mountain setting anyway.
    Then you don't know much about Egypt :P They have mountains there, plus there would need to be moutains to feed their "Nile" parallel, both with water and nutrient-rich sediment. It would make sense if it were the mountains that border on the presumably moister environment of Shaofeng.

    Besides, I don't see why the Chainmail stuff needs to be adhered to that rigorously--the locations in the Chainmail stuff were nebulous and ill-defined, and never gave any locations of cities or settlements.


    Icarus wrote:
    so ... The Barbarian Seameast and The Tribes ... I guess vast areas of uncontrolled land is difficult to imagine for me, but in non-European history, it happened fairly often. But, I always get the felling that these are more like descriptions of the area's inhabitants, more than it is a description of the national political structure or rulers in that region.
    They're the least defined and I couldn't find anything about them in the Black Moon stuff I translated.

    Icarus wrote:
    Also ... how difficult would it be to reconcile the maps if one were to go by the Darmoon MMO map, and just say that Thalos and Lhynn take up geographicallly the same area, and one simply has to choose one or the other, essentially?
    Doesn't work. They're too different and canonicly they BOTH are supposed to exist on Western Oerik. Dungeon #124 gave a brief description of Lynn in GH canon, as did Expedition to Castle Greyhawk, and it didn't remotely resemble any of the descriptions of Thalos in any way. I Don't see the point of squishing them together when Western Oerik is so huge and undeveloped and the Chainmail map is ill-defined. There's plenty of room for both.

    Icarus wrote:
    Is the "Isle of Mephreton" mentioned by Gygax in the original post on this thread, the one off the coast of Erypt? Would this be the place where the order established by Methraton is situated? Is that an alternate spelling (or typo/error) by Gygax, or are the two names completely unrelated?
    I'm pretty sure "Mephreton" was a typo on Gygax's part. I'll see if I can find stuff to translate regarding Methraton soon.

    Icarus wrote:
    Also ... on a completely other note: have we looked for anyway to contact the author, or the publishing company, to ask about buying a map, or where one might be located, or if there was one ever produced?
    All my google searches ended up with the MMO map, though there are a few vague incomplete maps in the comics. I wouldn't have any idea who to contact about that stuff, I can't find any contact info for Francois Froideval.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 01, 2007
    Posts: 698
    From: NOW IN Cape May, NJ! Loving the new digs!

    Send private message
    Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:26 pm  
    Re: Once more, to the map of Western Oerik

    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    Icarus wrote:

    Does the Empire have to have an Western coastline?
    I would say yes. A large empire needs at least one port, and removing the coastline changes too much about the empire. Go back and read the description of Lhynn--the Imperial Palace is also a giant lighthouse, etc. Better not to change the character of these locations
    I guess I put too much emphasis in the wrong place. I was emphasizing the requirement of it, but what I really should've said is does it have to have a western coast? I was thinking that it might be able to be put in on the eastern coast, along the Celestial Sea, between Ahmut's Legion and Erypt. That also might give a placement for the Pass of Dragons ... unless, of course there's already placement for Drach.
    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    Then you don't know much about Egypt :P They have mountains there, plus there would need to be moutains to feed their "Nile" parallel, both with water and nutrient-rich sediment. It would make sense if it were the mountains that border on the presumably moister environment of Shaofeng.
    I realize that there are "mountains" in Egypt ... but, I guess that my Texas mentality is coming out. I meant like Mountain-mountains. While there are "highlands"<impish wink> there, in the US mountains some are 300% as high as highest elevations of Egypt.
    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    They're too different and canonicly they BOTH are supposed to exist on Western Oerik.
    While I realize that in both settings, they are s'posed to exist individually, I don't think that I would say that they both exist "canonicly". I was wondering if there were, perhaps, a chance that Chainmail's Thalos was "overwritten" on Froideval's Lynn. It's theoretically possible that the Chainmail designers knew what was there and decided to replace or rename it. ... but, I would agree with you that it's terribly unlikely, since there's been stuff written about it in canon both before and after Chainmail.
    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    I'm pretty sure "Mephreton" was a typo on Gygax's part. I'll see if I can find stuff to translate regarding Methraton soon.
    Keen.
    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    All my google searches ended up with the MMO map, though there are a few vague incomplete maps in the comics.
    Perhaps there's some of the incomplete maps that touch each other, (or relate in known ways) to stitch together a makeshift Frankenstein map. Or, then again, you likely would've mentioned that, so ... I am assuming that they're such small areas that they are insignificant in relation to each other.
    _________________
    Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com
    Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal
    Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com


    Last edited by Icarus on Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: May 12, 2005
    Posts: 858
    From: Woonsocket, RI, USA

    Send private message
    Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:45 pm  
    Re: Once more, to the map of Western Oerik

    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    Icarus wrote:
    Also ... on a completely other note: have we looked for anyway to contact the author, or the publishing company, to ask about buying a map, or where one might be located, or if there was one ever produced?
    All my google searches ended up with the MMO map, though there are a few vague incomplete maps in the comics. I wouldn't have any idea who to contact about that stuff, I can't find any contact info for Francois Froideval.
    Just throwing in my two cents:
    https://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/profile.php?id=100000206802855
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 01, 2007
    Posts: 698
    From: NOW IN Cape May, NJ! Loving the new digs!

    Send private message
    Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:40 pm  
    Methraton is Serpentor!! (also, Froideval's FB)


    Oh ... my ... GAWD!! Shocked It's SERPENTOR from the old GI Joe cartoon~!!! Wink
    Blue Bomber, I can't wait to read this! The cult of the Supreme Magus Methraton is looking really cool! Does he have shades of the cult of Apophis (Apep)? I kind of hope that he doesn't. I think that he's kind of cool ... but, he looks über-creepy though. Like a badguy? Or an über not-goodguy?

    Seriously, though ... DMPrata ... I think you are both a Genius, and deeply Evil. Thus, you are an Evil Genius. Man! Tempt *me* with a FB link to Froideval's page will ya'?!! I know that it's really easy to find people these days, but, ... Froideval, right there, man. I didn't even think of trying something as simple as FB. So, I already sent him a very politely worded message, saying that I was recently introduced to his work, and was interesting in it with regards to GH. So, here's hoping that it might work!

    Also ... on a related note, I am seeing about getting copies of the comics myself. It will be insanely expensive to get, but, I am going to see. It is Tax Return Season, after all.
    _________________
    Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com
    Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal
    Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 01, 2007
    Posts: 698
    From: NOW IN Cape May, NJ! Loving the new digs!

    Send private message
    Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:51 am  
    Thrnslation process

    Alright so ... the one question that hasn't been asked yet:
    What method are you using to translate the text of the comic books?

    Are you hand-typing the text? I tried out another comic book that I own (Daredevil) to see if a PDF would recognize the text in the photos from individual pages (converted from the actual JPG images into a PDF), and then I converted it to a .DOCX for MS Word (an available function in Acrobat Pro) and it didn't like the pictures. It would recognize all of the plain text, but, not within the pictures. I was hoping that I would be able to use the translate function of MS Word, but, I can't figure out how to get it to recognize the text.

    So ... I'm hoping that there's an option that I can use to do some translation as well (if I am able to get the comics). I just can't imagine typing out 14 issues of the Chronicles, plus the Methraton and Secrets of the Black Moon issues. That's ... a lot.
    _________________
    Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com
    Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal
    Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com
    GreySage

    Joined: Jul 26, 2010
    Posts: 2519
    From: LG Dyvers

    Send private message
    Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:00 am  
    Re: Thrnslation process

    Icarus wrote:
    I just can't imagine typing out 14 issues of the Chronicles, plus the Methraton and Secrets of the Black Moon issues. That's ... a lot.


    Wow, yes! Shocked It would probably total almost half as much as you've typed in this thread alone! Razz

    SirXaris
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:38 am  
    Re: Thrnslation process

    Icarus wrote:
    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    Icarus wrote:

    Does the Empire have to have an Western coastline?
    I would say yes. A large empire needs at least one port, and removing the coastline changes too much about the empire. Go back and read the description of Lhynn--the Imperial Palace is also a giant lighthouse, etc. Better not to change the character of these locations
    I guess I put too much emphasis in the wrong place. I was emphasizing the requirement of it, but what I really should've said is does it have to have a western coast? I was thinking that it might be able to be put in on the eastern coast, along the Celestial Sea, between Ahmut's Legion and Erypt. That also might give a placement for the Pass of Dragons ... unless, of course there's already placement for Drach.
    That doesn't make any sense. They'd lose the border with Tharque and it would be incredibly difficult for Tharque to launch a naval assault on Lynn.


    Icarus wrote:
    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    Then you don't know much about Egypt :P They have mountains there, plus there would need to be moutains to feed their "Nile" parallel, both with water and nutrient-rich sediment. It would make sense if it were the mountains that border on the presumably moister environment of Shaofeng.
    I realize that there are "mountains" in Egypt ... but, I guess that my Texas mentality is coming out. I meant like Mountain-mountains. While there are "highlands"<impish wink> there, in the US mountains some are 300% as high as highest elevations of Egypt.
    Again, look at the Nile river in the real world. It originates from two feeder rivers that come from mountain ranges--the Blue Nile, which carries all the sediment, originates from the mountains of Ethiopia; while the White Nile, which carries most of the water, originates from the highlands of Tanzania. A river like that in Western Oerik would need similar mountain ranges to feed it and support a large population in an otherwise dry area.


    Icarus wrote:
    Alright so ... the one question that hasn't been asked yet:
    What method are you using to translate the text of the comic books?

    Are you hand-typing the text? I tried out another comic book that I own (Daredevil) to see if a PDF would recognize the text in the photos from individual pages (converted from the actual JPG images into a PDF), and then I converted it to a .DOCX for MS Word (an available function in Acrobat Pro) and it didn't like the pictures. It would recognize all of the plain text, but, not within the pictures. I was hoping that I would be able to use the translate function of MS Word, but, I can't figure out how to get it to recognize the text.

    So ... I'm hoping that there's an option that I can use to do some translation as well (if I am able to get the comics). I just can't imagine typing out 14 issues of the Chronicles, plus the Methraton and Secrets of the Black Moon issues. That's ... a lot.
    Dude, I'm not insane enough to try translating the comics. Laughing

    On the first page I posted a link to a fan-made role-playing game adaptation of the comics. I'm cutting and pasting the french text from that and pasting it into a multiple online translation sites (babelfish, google translate, etc.).
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 01, 2007
    Posts: 698
    From: NOW IN Cape May, NJ! Loving the new digs!

    Send private message
    Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:14 am  
    Re: Thrnslation process

    SirXaris wrote:
    Shocked It would probably total almost half as much as you've typed in this thread alone! Razz
    Yeah, yeah. You're not the first to make that joke! In my World of Warcraft guild, they tease me, and make jokes that about how overly verbose I am. "the Loquacious" and " ... the Superfluous", and jokes about how I never stop writing. <grin> Well, if that's the worst I'm ever teased about, well, I'm happy.
    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    Dude, I'm not insane enough to try translating the comics. Laughing
    On the first page I posted a link to a fan-made role-playing game adaptation of the comics. I'm cutting and pasting the french text from that and pasting it into a multiple online translation sites (babelfish, google translate, etc.).
    Now that you point it out, I remember looking at those links when this thread began a month and a half ago. Embarassed Sorry for not going back and reading.
    But, (I am praying here) I hope that you downloaded a copy of the PDF that "Alexander" was making in that fan-forum. Because six days after we started this thread, the FBI seized Megaupload.com ... where he was storing his files. It's very, very unfortunate (especially since they did it right after the SOPA fiasco), but the CdLN adaptation got sucked into that morass, and his links are all now dead.
    I really wish that he'd not deleted his own forum posts in making the PDF. We might've been able to recreate some of his work. And a lot of that thread makes *no* sense when post after post reads "Emptied because editing pdf ... See the first post and then revised".

    So ... there we have it.
    _________________
    Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com
    Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal
    Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com


    Last edited by Icarus on Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:51 am; edited 1 time in total
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:17 pm  

    Oh, I forgot about that. Yes, I downloaded them (there were 3 in total).
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 10, 2003
    Posts: 1234
    From: New Jersey

    Send private message
    Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:42 pm  

    Cool I wonder where's Darak Urtag on that map of yours (Orcreich).

    Later

    Argon
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 01, 2007
    Posts: 698
    From: NOW IN Cape May, NJ! Loving the new digs!

    Send private message
    Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:44 am  
    Placement of Darak Urtag.

    Same place it's always been? To the east in Central Oerik?
    _________________
    Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com
    Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal
    Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 10, 2003
    Posts: 1234
    From: New Jersey

    Send private message
    Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:49 pm  

    Razz Icarus!

    I know just wanted it displayed on the map, as that is one of the projects I am working on.

    Later

    Argon
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:57 pm  
    Re: Once more, to the map of Western Oerik

    DMPrata wrote:
    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    Icarus wrote:
    Also ... on a completely other note: have we looked for anyway to contact the author, or the publishing company, to ask about buying a map, or where one might be located, or if there was one ever produced?
    All my google searches ended up with the MMO map, though there are a few vague incomplete maps in the comics. I wouldn't have any idea who to contact about that stuff, I can't find any contact info for Francois Froideval.
    Just throwing in my two cents:
    https://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/profile.php?id=100000206802855
    A bit late on this, I know but... I've come across this before and there's no way to tell if that's genuine. There are unfortunately a lot of bogus FB pages out there for writers, musicians, etc.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: May 12, 2005
    Posts: 858
    From: Woonsocket, RI, USA

    Send private message
    Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:11 pm  
    Re: Once more, to the map of Western Oerik

    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    DMPrata wrote:
    Just throwing in my two cents:
    https://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/profile.php?id=100000206802855
    A bit late on this, I know but... I've come across this before and there's no way to tell if that's genuine. There are unfortunately a lot of bogus FB pages out there for writers, musicians, etc.
    Yes, but this bogus Facebook page is friends with Frank Mentzer. Wink
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 01, 2007
    Posts: 698
    From: NOW IN Cape May, NJ! Loving the new digs!

    Send private message
    Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:06 pm  
    Homage to EGG

    A fun little interesting bit of information about the comic series, and about the story in the Black Moon Chronicles ...

    Without spoilers or anything, there's a dragon talked about in the comicbooks, who is reffered to as "the first dragon, the father of all grand dreamers". You know what its name is?

    Xygga

    Which, if you didn't notice, is an anagram of "Gygax". I think that I love Froideval more, and more.
    The dedication in the final issue reads:
    Francois Marcela Froideva, Nov 2008 wrote:
    This series is dedicated to E. Gary Gygax. The first big dreamer, the inventor of role-playing, without whom fantasy and science fiction currently would be a minor genre nearly forgotten. To this quiet giant who was dreaming of millions of players.
    To my master, to my friend. May he live eternally in the universe he has patiently woven.


    Side note: I'm waiting to find out if I am going to be able to get a translator to write up the comicbooks for me. My GF has a friend who's a fellow physician at work who happens to be French, and gives tutoring lessons, and my GF is going to ask if she'd be willing to do translations of the comicbooks that I have. I actually offered to let her use them if she has any youngsters to tutor that would find it easier to read something like a comicbook than a textbook. :) I can't *wait* to find out what she says!
    _________________
    Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com
    Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal
    Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:08 pm  
    Re: Homage to EGG

    Icarus wrote:

    Side note: I'm waiting to find out if I am going to be able to get a translator to write up the comicbooks for me. My GF has a friend who's a fellow physician at work who happens to be French, and gives tutoring lessons, and my GF is going to ask if she'd be willing to do translations of the comicbooks that I have. I actually offered to let her use them if she has any youngsters to tutor that would find it easier to read something like a comicbook than a textbook. :) I can't *wait* to find out what she says!
    Um, I'm not sure if it's a good idea to use them to teach children. The books have a lot of adult content--especially once the succubus Hellyana shows up. Shocked
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 01, 2007
    Posts: 698
    From: NOW IN Cape May, NJ! Loving the new digs!

    Send private message
    Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:15 pm  
    NC-17 BMC comics?

    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    Um, I'm not sure if it's a good idea to use them to teach children. The books have a lot of adult content--especially once the succubus Hellyana shows up. Shocked

    Shocked
    Holy crap, man! That's not really what I had in mind, but, you're right. Probably not appropriate for (youngsters=young kids).
    But, I was thinking more of the age that someone would generally be taking French classes and would need a tutor. i.e. - Sophmore in high school to Sophmore in college. 16 to 20? Comparably speaking at my age, those are "youngsters".
    I don't think the comics would be inappropriate for that age range, would they? PG-13? NC-17? R? I hadn't stopped to think of that, at all. Thanks for pointing it out. I will be certain to mention it to her, if she's the translator I end up using. I found two others that I'll use if she hasn't the time.
    _________________
    Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com
    Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal
    Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com
    GreySage

    Joined: Jul 26, 2010
    Posts: 2519
    From: LG Dyvers

    Send private message
    Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:52 am  

    I'm a teacher and a parent, Icarus, and I can tell you that if your translator is employed in a public school and a parent discovers that she has given her students literature regarding a succubus, she will be in very hot water. Embarassed I bet the same would apply even if she is just a private tutor.

    I admit that I'm not familiar with the content of the comic, so this is just a warning to be careful. I suggest you inform her of the content, or rather, I suppose she'll read through it as she translates it for you, so she'll know first-hand what it involves.

    SirXaris
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:20 am  
    Re: NC-17 BMC comics?

    Icarus wrote:
    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    Um, I'm not sure if it's a good idea to use them to teach children. The books have a lot of adult content--especially once the succubus Hellyana shows up. Shocked

    Shocked
    Holy crap, man! That's not really what I had in mind, but, you're right. Probably not appropriate for (youngsters=young kids).
    But, I was thinking more of the age that someone would generally be taking French classes and would need a tutor. i.e. - Sophmore in high school to Sophmore in college. 16 to 20? Comparably speaking at my age, those are "youngsters".
    I don't think the comics would be inappropriate for that age range, would they? PG-13? NC-17? R? I hadn't stopped to think of that, at all. Thanks for pointing it out. I will be certain to mention it to her, if she's the translator I end up using. I found two others that I'll use if she hasn't the time.
    I'd say "R." There's partial nudity; you see the succubus' bare breasts quite a few times, even on the cover of one of the volumes. I don't believe it gets any more graphic than that, but there's some probably some racy dialogue, adult themes, etc. While stuff like that is no big deal in France, a US teacher would probably get a lot of flak to showing that even to high school students.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 01, 2007
    Posts: 698
    From: NOW IN Cape May, NJ! Loving the new digs!

    Send private message
    Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:16 pm  
    Spoilers, or no?

    Thankfully, she's not a public school teacher (she's a doctor who happens to give lessons), and as I said above, I'd mention it to her; and as you said, she'd be translating it, so she'd know what it was and if it was appropriate for any of the people she gives lessons to.

    But, regarding the setting: I got a little bored and impatient this evening, and hand-typed a couple or few pages into translation programs, and read a little of the end of the series. So ... I can offer tidbits of the story's climax. Which is to say, some of the things in the final issue, and major events at the end of it all.

    So, my question to y'all is: Spoilers, or no? I realize that the majority of people aren't going to spend their Income Tax Returns on buying the comics or anything, so, the majority of readers aren't going to bother reading French comics ... but, still, I wanted to ask before I went posting anything realms-shattering, if y'all care about the setting's time or place.
    _________________
    Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com
    Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal
    Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 10, 2003
    Posts: 1234
    From: New Jersey

    Send private message
    Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:35 pm  

    Icarus,

    Hey if she translates the adult themed stuff they might do a porn parody of it. Laughing

    Spoilers only for those of us who have the comics and are reading or looking forward to reading it. I would love to have them but don't see it as a possibility at this time. So I guess what I'm saying is spoil me! Smile

    Later

    Argon
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 09, 2003
    Posts: 1240
    From: Clarksville, TN

    Send private message
    Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:53 am  
    Re: Spoilers, or no?

    Icarus wrote:
    ...So, my question to y'all is: Spoilers, or no? ...


    Just use the


    ****Spoiler Alert****************

    etc

    *****End Spoiler Alert************

    Those who want to use it for campaign inspiration can do so, those who want to read the comic can glance past it with no harm done.

    I just realzed that there may be another one of thiose copyright issues, though, but probably not.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 01, 2007
    Posts: 698
    From: NOW IN Cape May, NJ! Loving the new digs!

    Send private message
    Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:00 am  
    Ri-i-i-ight. I got that.

    Thank you, James. I'm familiar with using spoiler tags.

    It's just occassionally annoying to have to read a full page of spoiler tags when everyone has to put them because they're discussing the spoilers.
    And, I figured that if any significant number of people said they weren't interested, I could talk to anyone who was interested off-thread, and wouldn't even bother putting them here for lack of interest.
    _________________
    Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com
    Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal
    Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 14, 2006
    Posts: 285


    Send private message
    Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:30 pm  

    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    designation Mur, Komal, and Risay are briefly described in Dungeon #136


    I just re-read through the adventure in Dungeon #136, and couldn't find the reference to Risay. Do you happen to have a page number handy?

    Doubtless, it's something blazingly obvious, and I just missed it.

    The reason I ask is that my next map is going to be heading up in that area, and I'm trying to gather all the canonical source material I can lay my hands on.

    Joe / Greyhawk Grognard
    http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 01, 2007
    Posts: 698
    From: NOW IN Cape May, NJ! Loving the new digs!

    Send private message
    Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:58 pm  

    Thulcondar wrote:
    I just re-read through the adventure in Dungeon #136, and couldn't find the reference to Risay. Do you happen to have a page number handy? Doubtless, it's something blazingly obvious, and I just missed it.

    <chuckles warmly> Yeah, well ... I've done it before too, Thulcondar. Happens to the best of us.
    The article is the adventure "The Coming Storm". There's a great deal of information beginning on page 38 in the section entitled "The Land of Mur, and the Shensite Order". It describes Mur, but also mentions the other, and there are a bunch of references throughout the article to things like "Murian armor" and whatnot.

    Nope, nope,nope ... I see what you're asking now ... you're asking for RISAY specifically. You know what, I'm pouring through the article, and I can't find it either. I've even OCR'd a copy of the article, and the computer can't find it either.
    _________________
    Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com
    Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal
    Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com


    Last edited by Icarus on Mon Aug 17, 2015 2:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:06 am  

    Oops, guess it's not in that adventure. I think Risay is mentioned in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer though.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 14, 2006
    Posts: 285


    Send private message
    Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:12 am  

    Got it.

    The name appears in the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer, p. 137 (along with Mur, I should add), and there's an article on Zeif by Fred Weining in Living Greyhawk Journal #5, starting on p. 10, that mentions it as well. In fact, it places it south of Zeif, making its placement on the map in the OJ problematical.

    Joe / GG
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:28 pm  

    Here's some pictures of Lynn from the comics:

    https://goo.gl/photos/NhUmzSQN7FgkxyHr9
    The capital city of Lhynn under siege

    https://goo.gl/photos/YX7KtSWhLsfpbPJRA
    Lhynn's centurions

    https://goo.gl/photos/h1KkQnEoeH7BVVwG8
    Altenberg

    https://goo.gl/photos/juek6dTmPNd53sD89
    The Order of Light

    https://goo.gl/photos/PgvHB3S9Mcx1NPWp8
    Sysigie

    https://goo.gl/photos/8qTPtsyvcBSxSE7P6
    The Black Moon Cult

    https://goo.gl/photos/97YVr9XBzJrpiM5a8
    Ghrunkadesh

    https://goo.gl/photos/ewhvXNaWGr2Qh1dC9
    Dragonmaster of Drach

    Thulcondar wrote:
    Got it.

    The name appears in the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer, p. 137 (along with Mur, I should add), and there's an article on Zeif by Fred Weining in Living Greyhawk Journal #5, starting on p. 10, that mentions it as well. In fact, it places it south of Zeif, making its placement on the map in the OJ problematical.

    Joe / GG
    yikes, looks like I need to update my map as well!

    https://goo.gl/photos/pusxxecoWVAgipYLA


    Last edited by Bluebomber4evr on Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 17, 2004
    Posts: 898
    From: Computer Desk

    Send private message
    Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:10 pm  

    I place the baklunish states:
    Komal
    Risay
    Mur

    To adhere to the zeifian gazetteer; and I include Istustan inspired by the wonderful fanfic of Galina, as an upstart nation/ trade bridge to the celestial imperium.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 14, 2006
    Posts: 285


    Send private message
    Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:16 pm  

    I just posted something on my blog, attempting to reconcile the available sources and figure out where the four continents end up. My map is a bit different than yours in details, BB4E, but I think you'll find it interesting.

    http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com/2012/03/gonduria-aquaria-and-oerths-four.html

    Joe / Greyhawk Grognard
    Forum Moderator

    Joined: Feb 26, 2004
    Posts: 2569
    From: Ullinois

    Send private message
    Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:32 pm  

    Holy crap the art from that comic is awesome!

    Good work with the mapping reconciliations too. IMO this is one of our best threads in recent years.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 14, 2006
    Posts: 285


    Send private message
    Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:50 am  

    Crag wrote:
    I place the baklunish states:
    Komal
    Risay
    Mur

    To adhere to the zeifian gazetteer; and I include Istustan inspired by the wonderful fanfic of Galina, as an upstart nation/ trade bridge to the celestial imperium.


    I'm going with:

    Mur
    Komal
    Risay

    Mur northernmost because it is said "that the warm currents of the Dramidj Ocean combining with the bitterly cold prevailing winds from Telchuria (Hyperborea) to create a zone of moist, tumultuous weather". That tells me it needs to be the state closest to the northern shore.

    Komal adjacent to it because we are told that they are neighbors, and the Komalis often raid into Mur.

    Risay southernmost because it is said to be south of the Zeif town of Barakhat, yet on the gulf, and with at least some sandy terrain (the "Sand Battle" was fought there in 3186 BH; the name of the battle could mean other things, of course, but it makes sense to have its territory overlap with the Dry Steppe as it reaches the gulf).

    Joe / Greyhawk Grognard
    http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:13 am  

    Thulcondar wrote:
    I just posted something on my blog, attempting to reconcile the available sources and figure out where the four continents end up. My map is a bit different than yours in details, BB4E, but I think you'll find it interesting.

    http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com/2012/03/gonduria-aquaria-and-oerths-four.html

    Joe / Greyhawk Grognard
    Interesting, but I think you're off on which ocean is the Agitoric. The "Oceanum Titanicum" would be the exact same body of water as the Solnor, really, which is why I didn't even put it on the map I posted. The only other real candidate left was the Ocean of Storms, and "Agitoric Ocean" sounds like a better name for that body of water (less generic).

    I placed New Empyrea/Aquaria on Fireland due to the debate between Rasgon and myself earlier in this thread. It just seemed the most appropriate place without adding another landmass, and the area from R1-4/I12 is small enough and Fireland is large enough that it could still be a frontier with Thillonrian "vikings."

    Thulcondar wrote:
    Crag wrote:
    I place the baklunish states:
    Komal
    Risay
    Mur

    To adhere to the zeifian gazetteer; and I include Istustan inspired by the wonderful fanfic of Galina, as an upstart nation/ trade bridge to the celestial imperium.


    I'm going with:

    Mur
    Komal
    Risay

    Mur northernmost because it is said "that the warm currents of the Dramidj Ocean combining with the bitterly cold prevailing winds from Telchuria (Hyperborea) to create a zone of moist, tumultuous weather". That tells me it needs to be the state closest to the northern shore.

    Komal adjacent to it because we are told that they are neighbors, and the Komalis often raid into Mur.

    Risay southernmost because it is said to be south of the Zeif town of Barakhat, yet on the gulf, and with at least some sandy terrain (the "Sand Battle" was fought there in 3186 BH; the name of the battle could mean other things, of course, but it makes sense to have its territory overlap with the Dry Steppe as it reaches the gulf).

    Joe / Greyhawk Grognard
    http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com
    That's more or less the reasoning I used too, and I wanted to avoid using fanon wherever possible.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 14, 2006
    Posts: 285


    Send private message
    Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:05 am  

    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    Interesting, but I think you're off on which ocean is the Agitoric. The "Oceanum Titanicum" would be the exact same body of water as the Solnor, really, which is why I didn't even put it on the map I posted. The only other real candidate left was the Ocean of Storms, and "Agitoric Ocean" sounds like a better name for that body of water (less generic).

    I placed New Empyrea/Aquaria on Fireland due to the debate between Rasgon and myself earlier in this thread. It just seemed the most appropriate place without adding another landmass, and the area from R1-4/I12 is small enough and Fireland is large enough that it could still be a frontier with Thillonrian "vikings."


    When you place Aquaria as its own continent (and the Aquaria material declares it to be so) it divides the Solnor from the Oceanum Titanicum, thus neatly avoiding the problem you state. However, if you declare that the Oceanum Titanicum and the Solnor are one in the same, as well as the Ocean of Storms and the Agitoric, then you end up an ocean short!

    Quote:
    That's more or less the reasoning I used too, and I wanted to avoid using fanon wherever possible.


    Agreed 100%

    Joe / Greyhawk Grognard
    http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3108
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:17 pm  



    The fact that the southern continent ("Gonduria," possibly) is depicted on both sides of the map simultaneously makes it pretty clear that the intent of the Dragon Annual #1 cartographer (Dave Sutherland) was that the Solnor and the Oceanum Titanicum were one and the same. There's literally no room in between the two map edges, unless you stretch the continent out. That can be reimagined as artistic license or a cartographer's error, but it seems to me to be as clear a way of signalling "there's nothing else here" as possible. Since the source of the name "Oceanum Titanicum" is the same map, I don't see any need to add continents to explain it. It doesn't seem strange to me that distant lands would have different names for the same ocean. Note that the map above labels the waters to the west of Fireland as also being part of the Oceanum Titanicum, though these waters should surely be the Solnor.

    Quote:
    When you place Aquaria as its own continent (and the Aquaria material declares it to be so)


    No, it doesn't. Not explicitly. Doc's Island states:

    "The bulk of the explorers settled in a pleasant valley southeast of the peninsula. They found an ideal riverside location a few miles inland and built their first real town on the continent..."

    That quote could be taken as "this is a separate continent that they built a town on," of course, but it can also be taken as "this is the first town the Aquaerdians explorers built on the continent of Oerik." They hadn't built the towns they abandoned in Aerdy (although their ancestors may have), and when they were in Aerdy they weren't yet explorers. So this is the first town they built themselves, in their position as explorers in a new land.

    The other major reference to "continent" (apart from the one that said they're 5,000 miles east of Oerik, which would be true whether or not travelling this far put them in Oerik again) is on page 6, where we're told that the forces of Evil "overran the continent." If the continent is Oerik, clearly this isn't literally true (though this was during the Age of Great Sorrow, when Evil was on the rise everywhere). However, the Empyrean monarchy controlled such a tiny region that what was going on in the rest of the continent is really irrelevant to the story. As the module states, it is only concerned with a small territory, and this is what was overrun by Evil, not necessarily the entire continental mass, regardless of which continent you think that mass was.

    If Aquaria is placed in Fireland, then no, it isn't literally on a continent by most sages reckoning, though it's big enough that it could be referred to as a continent poetically. Roger E. Moore wrote in The Adventure Begins "No single island is great enough to be a continent, though the largest might be the largest island on Oerth."

    I think, though, that 5,000 miles east would place it in the Elven Lands or Gigantea instead. Maximum compatibility with the Chainmail setting would suggest Gigantea as the more likely candidate. Perhaps the Aquaerdians had to keep moving east because they were turned away by the people of Thalos and the Sundered Empire.

    That said, your interpretation is fine, too.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 14, 2006
    Posts: 285


    Send private message
    Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:27 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    Quote:
    When you place Aquaria as its own continent (and the Aquaria material declares it to be so)


    No, it doesn't. Not explicitly.


    Really? Cast your eyes to the lower-left corner of the following:



    Seems pretty explicit to me.

    Joe / Greyhawk Grognard
    http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3108
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:45 pm  

    Thulcondar wrote:
    rasgon wrote:
    Quote:
    When you place Aquaria as its own continent (and the Aquaria material declares it to be so)


    No, it doesn't. Not explicitly.


    Really? Cast your eyes to the lower-left corner of the following:

    Seems pretty explicit to me.


    It is, yes, and I would find that convincing if that were an official map, and not a fan-created map by Dave L.

    I thought you were trying to avoid fanon wherever possible.

    (This isn't intended to be read as sarcastic or snippy; I honestly thought you were trying to avoid fanon, and I think that this map qualifies. The maps in R4 and I12 never use the word "continent," and I believe those are the only official ones).
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 14, 2006
    Posts: 285


    Send private message
    Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:28 pm  

    rasgon wrote:


    It is, yes, and I would find that convincing if that were an official map, and not a fan-created map by Dave L.

    I thought you were trying to avoid fanon wherever possible.


    My bad-- for some reason I thought that was connected with Frank M's recent efforts to publish the setting. I would point out, however, that Dave L.'s works in connection with Aquaria are a smidgen above "fan created", being endorsed by none other than Frank Mentzer himself:

    http://212.227.57.87/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=35588&start=510

    I'm not sure why you're resisting the idea that Aquaria was its own continent; it's pretty well established. Frank Mentzer did explicitly state that "in the early 1980s, Aquaria was Officially Approved as being located east of Oerik, across the Solnor." Here:

    http://www.dragonsfoot.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=6455

    In that same post, he explicitly gives two timelines. One for OG: Oeridian/Greyhawk continent and the other for AQ: Aquarian continent. That seems sufficiently explicit to me, and I'm pretty sure it's not the dreaded fanon.

    Forgive me for saying so, but I'll take the word of Frank Mentzer over you, when it comes to whether or not his campaign setting was intended to be a continent on Oerth. But you go right on swinging, slugger.

    Joe / Greyhawk Grognard
    http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3108
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:52 pm  

    Thulcondar wrote:
    I'm not sure why you're resisting the idea that Aquaria was its own continent.


    Because Frank Mentzer's campaign didn't make use of the Dragon Annual #1 map, I don't think material from his own unpublished campaign necessarily applies to discussions that do involve that map. My thoughts are an attempt to reconcile the TSR-published material in what I think is the most elegant way. Since I see no canonical reason to make Aquaria its own continent (and doing so would seem to contradict the Dragon map), it seems simpler not to. Occam's Razor and all that.

    I would personally consider Frank Mentzer's own unpublished words to be fanon, or at least apocryphal.

    But as I said, your way works too.


    Last edited by rasgon on Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 01, 2007
    Posts: 698
    From: NOW IN Cape May, NJ! Loving the new digs!

    Send private message
    Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:00 pm  
    Sysigie vs. Mont San Michel

    So ... meanwhile ... back in Western Oerik, there's this Empire called Lyhnn.

    So, how do you guys feel about the depictions of Altenberg and Sysigie being these tremendously towering citadels? I mean it's a comicbook staple, to be certain, and not exactly historical, to be sure.
    I wonder, because GH has a very historical feel and yet I often want something that is a little more fantastical. I have great memories of reading The Hobbit and thinking that Rivendell was the most amazing thing ever. And I was even impressed with the Lake Men's city, and was wondrously impressed by the thoughts of the dwarven cities.

    I guess what I'm saying is: would you guys run the cities precisely as they appear in the illustrations posted above by BlueBomber? Would you use them as player handouts, and describe them as being a bit exaggerated? Would you make them considerably more realistic? I mean, Altenberg can fairly easily be described as a towering castle I mean, it's name almost literally means "high city", but, Sysigie is a little different. Is that clouds? Low-lying fog in a valley? What are those angelic statues? Are they colossuses? Are they closer than the city, and just look that large? Would it really look that tall ... or perhaps would you make it still a marvelous feat of architecture, but a bit more realistic? Maybe like Mont San Michel in France? (It happens to be an actual island, for those who've never seen it. It's ginormous, and it's stunning.)

    Just cuious how you'd compare those images that BlueBomber posted. I mean, I just got nearly all of the comics when my Income Tax came in ... but, I am curious what you guys are thinking of them.
    _________________
    Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com
    Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal
    Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:04 am  
    Re: Sysigie vs. Mont San Michel

    Icarus wrote:
    So ... meanwhile ... back in Western Oerik, there's this Empire called Lyhnn.

    So, how do you guys feel about the depictions of Altenberg and Sysigie being these tremendously towering citadels? I mean it's a comicbook staple, to be certain, and not exactly historical, to be sure.
    I wonder, because GH has a very historical feel and yet I often want something that is a little more fantastical. I have great memories of reading The Hobbit and thinking that Rivendell was the most amazing thing ever. And I was even impressed with the Lake Men's city, and was wondrously impressed by the thoughts of the dwarven cities.

    I guess what I'm saying is: would you guys run the cities precisely as they appear in the illustrations posted above by BlueBomber? Would you use them as player handouts, and describe them as being a bit exaggerated? Would you make them considerably more realistic? I mean, Altenberg can fairly easily be described as a towering castle I mean, it's name almost literally means "high city", but, Sysigie is a little different. Is that clouds? Low-lying fog in a valley? What are those angelic statues? Are they colossuses? Are they closer than the city, and just look that large? Would it really look that tall ... or perhaps would you make it still a marvelous feat of architecture, but a bit more realistic? Maybe like Mont San Michel in France? (It happens to be an actual island, for those who've never seen it. It's ginormous, and it's stunning.)

    Just cuious how you'd compare those images that BlueBomber posted. I mean, I just got nearly all of the comics when my Income Tax came in ... but, I am curious what you guys are thinking of them.
    I don't see how they're anymore unrealistic than Castle Greyhawk with its massive dungeon complex.

    As for Greyhawk being "historical," while it's probably a more accurate depiction of medieval politics than say, the Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance, it's full of plenty of non-historical flights of fancy: the evil demigod ruling a land in his own name, a nation of racist ascetics with a powerful navy, and so on.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 01, 2007
    Posts: 698
    From: NOW IN Cape May, NJ! Loving the new digs!

    Send private message
    Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:38 am  
    Re: Sysigie vs. Mont San Michel

    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    I don't see how they're anymore unrealistic than Castle Greyhawk with its massive dungeon complex.
    As for Greyhawk being "historical," while it's probably a more accurate depiction of medieval politics than say, the Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance, it's full of plenty of non-historical flights of fancy: the evil demigod ruling a land in his own name, a nation of racist ascetics with a powerful navy, and so on.

    Alright ... we're not gonna go into that whole debacle! LOL! :) We could debate the history vs. fantasy thing for ages! (and it's been done to death!) <warm grin>

    I was referring to the physical appearance of the buildings. Yes, Castle Greyhawk has massive dungeons, but it's external appearance is one of a fairly believeable castle ... but, I'm not talking about whether something has fantasy tropes in the setting, I'm referring to how those places are depicted artistically. Whether they have a certain versimilitude or not.
    I love the illustrations, no doubt about that. But, there are often people who feel that the exaggerated art in comicbooks isn't really the "feel" of GH. There are some isolated examples where I agree with them. So, I was asking how those reading the thread felt about the comic art ... for example, with a castle looks like the Empire States Building (being enormously tall and thin). I wondered if that can be chalked up to an exaggerated perspective PoV, or if people thought it might be a magical construction, or perhaps maybe the clouds/fog of Sysigie are a bit too reminiscent of Cloud City for some, or maybe could be explained as Poison Clouds. ... or whatever explanation one chose to give (even/especially a magical/fantasy one.)

    I didn't mean that to go toward the "historicity" of the setting; obviously it's based in fantasy. I was intending a conversation about artistic representation of the setting, and other possible points of view other than mine - which is that I really like them.
    _________________
    Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com
    Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal
    Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:39 am  
    Re: Sysigie vs. Mont San Michel

    Icarus wrote:
    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    I don't see how they're anymore unrealistic than Castle Greyhawk with its massive dungeon complex.
    As for Greyhawk being "historical," while it's probably a more accurate depiction of medieval politics than say, the Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance, it's full of plenty of non-historical flights of fancy: the evil demigod ruling a land in his own name, a nation of racist ascetics with a powerful navy, and so on.

    Alright ... we're not gonna go into that whole debacle! LOL! :) We could debate the history vs. fantasy thing for ages! (and it's been done to death!) <warm grin>

    I was referring to the physical appearance of the buildings. Yes, Castle Greyhawk has massive dungeons, but it's external appearance is one of a fairly believeable castle ... but, I'm not talking about whether something has fantasy tropes in the setting, I'm referring to how those places are depicted artistically. Whether they have a certain versimilitude or not.
    I love the illustrations, no doubt about that. But, there are often people who feel that the exaggerated art in comicbooks isn't really the "feel" of GH. There are some isolated examples where I agree with them. So, I was asking how those reading the thread felt about the comic art ... for example, with a castle looks like the Empire States Building (being enormously tall and thin). I wondered if that can be chalked up to an exaggerated perspective PoV, or if people thought it might be a magical construction, or perhaps maybe the clouds/fog of Sysigie are a bit too reminiscent of Cloud City for some, or maybe could be explained as Poison Clouds. ... or whatever explanation one chose to give (even/especially a magical/fantasy one.)

    I didn't mean that to go toward the "historicity" of the setting; obviously it's based in fantasy. I was intending a conversation about artistic representation of the setting, and other possible points of view other than mine - which is that I really like them.
    Meh, it's still no big deal to me. Greyhawk's been around a long time and has all sorts of artistic interpreatations, from Erol Otus in the late 70s, Jeff Easley in the 80s, Eric Hotz's woodcut-style from the 90s, and Wayne Reynolds' very stylized look of the last decade, all very different from each other.

    Going with the "unrealistic appearance" thing--there's still examples of that in the Flanaess, such as the Silent Ones' tower in Keoland.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 14, 2006
    Posts: 285


    Send private message
    Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:17 pm  
    Re: Sysigie vs. Mont San Michel

    Icarus wrote:
    So, how do you guys feel about the depictions of Altenberg and Sysigie being these tremendously towering citadels? I mean it's a comicbook staple, to be certain, and not exactly historical, to be sure.
    I wonder, because GH has a very historical feel and yet I often want something that is a little more fantastical.

    <snip>

    I guess what I'm saying is: would you guys run the cities precisely as they appear in the illustrations posted above by BlueBomber? Would you use them as player handouts, and describe them as being a bit exaggerated? Would you make them considerably more realistic?


    If I was going to do handouts (I rarely do), I'd probably use the images as-is from the graphic novel. As has been said before, it's a fantasy game, and I have no problem with verisimilitude when it comes to that sort of architecture.

    Plus, I would say there's a certain aesthetic that goes with Lhynn specifically because it was first found in graphic novel format. Much like part of the "feel" of the Flanaess comes from Gygax's prose style, I might argue that part of the "feel" of the Empire of Lhynn comes from that sort of artistic style.

    Which doesn't mean it has a lock on the material, to be sure. But it certainly doesn't detract from it, to my mind.

    Joe / Greyhawk Grognard
    http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Sun Apr 01, 2012 2:37 pm  

    Okay, I was able to find a lot more images! I'll break this down into areas, maps, and characters.

    AREAS:

    https://goo.gl/photos/5mjp9V8UMWtK3c936
    Kendrhir

    https://goo.gl/photos/BWe6U2yHx1TtdWds7
    Feyhin Lockthat

    https://goo.gl/photos/Z5G5bRba5ASfoLZu9
    Plain of the Oracle

    https://goo.gl/photos/iVpBdS65QbZfdKwb7
    The capitol of Lhynn

    https://goo.gl/photos/mFiEmP19wDtyWtGf9
    Der Hem Selben

    https://goo.gl/photos/BP24dehDiWn7bNr1A
    Tharquatis, capitol city of the Tharque Empire (don't mind the giant tsunami, I'll address that below)

    https://goo.gl/photos/z7FYnysxUyeWSddT9
    Hazheel Thorn's palace in Moork

    https://goo.gl/photos/WynJMXg8uuwSApwt9
    Hazheel Thorn's palace on the moon

    https://goo.gl/photos/3iPcXahRF3aAUJ6P7
    Northind
    ________________________

    MAPS:

    These aren't terribly detailed, but I figure they're somewhat useful, especially for Thulcondar/GreyhawkGrognard Wink

    https://goo.gl/photos/CDEs3bWwAEYgyBWp9

    https://goo.gl/photos/J6eUyeHyQNVZ9vwv9

    https://goo.gl/photos/fFt6hd3J8yDz35Bz9

    https://goo.gl/photos/aCnTkAhMtpENehC3A

    https://goo.gl/photos/FTTyPPt7fuzPPAS3A

    https://goo.gl/photos/SpuHWw9yb5TzWUQf8
    _____________________________________

    CHARACTERS:

    https://goo.gl/photos/HcTzmsQmWsH6gBys7
    Greldinard, Baron of Moork

    https://goo.gl/photos/9PGjEZ1wwttjPBjS7
    Methraton (turns out the Serpentor-looking guy is just his emissary)

    https://goo.gl/photos/fk3e9gH2QBZ1ttxZA
    Prince Parsifal and the Knights of Justice

    https://goo.gl/photos/pZQnmMkvWVusyRDr8
    Wismerhill and his companions (the dwarves in this picture don't count):
    Upper left: Hellyanna, the succubus
    Upper center: the half-ogre barbarian Gorghor Bey
    Upper right: elven thief Heads-or-Tails
    Lower left, background: the mage Shamballeau
    Lower left, foreground: the samurai Murata
    Lower center: Wismerhill, the protagonist
    Lower right: the magical twins Pepite (foreground) and Goum (background)

    ________________________

    The Tharque Empire:

    https://goo.gl/photos/STFBVqXb3b3mrQUD8
    This is the largest ship in Tharque's navy, in Lhynn's port

    https://goo.gl/photos/wkhjAtiJJ9dMWkaBA
    The Tharquish Emperor Meldrim discussing affairs with his advisors.
    __________________________

    Okay, so after getting these pictures, I have a larger grasp of the story now, and there's some large issues in adapting it, but nothing that can't be overcome.

    SPOILERS BELOW!!!







    The series ends with the complete destruction of the world caused by the moon colliding with the earth. That's the source of the tsunami about to hit Tharque in the picture above. Most of the human and dragon inhabitants of Lhynn use a magical gate made by Methraton to escape to another world, but the elves and dwarves remain behind, as does Wismerhill out of guilt for causing the world's destruction. The people of Tharque are apparently not saved.

    So in adapting this, there's basically three options:

    1. The events of the comics haven't happened yet, but will in the future. A problem if you plan on keeping the Oerth around Wink

    2. Treat the events of the comics the same way we currently treat the Gord the Rogue novels (especially the last one where Tharizdun destroys Oerth). As apocryphal and/or on a parallel Oerth

    3. Assume that Oerth is the parallel world that the people of Lhynn escaped to at the end of the comics. This creates some problems in relation to Erypt and Tharque, however.

    Of the three, I prefer #2. The comics are slightly different from Oerth canon anyway, most noticeably in that there's only one God, and he gets disgusted and more or less abandons humanity except for Sysigie, which he saves by removing from the world. If this were actually Oerth I'd have a hard time believing that all of Oerth's deities would let the entire world be destroyed over the events of the comics.


    Last edited by Bluebomber4evr on Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:25 pm; edited 2 times in total
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 14, 2006
    Posts: 285


    Send private message
    Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:12 pm  

    Wonderful! Absolutely wonderful! All the art in these books is just spectacular, and I love seeing more people able to enjoy it.

    I have all the graphic novels except #14 and the "arcana" covering Parsifal, but I haven't been able to look through them all, obviously. Do you happen to know which volumes those most excellent images (especially the ones with the maps... ahem) are in?

    That's excellent work, BB4E, and most appreciated. It will definitely come in handy when my own poor mapping efforts get out to that part of Oerik.

    Joe / Greyhawk Grognard
    http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:59 pm  

    GreyhawkGrognard wrote:
    Wonderful! Absolutely wonderful! All the art in these books is just spectacular, and I love seeing more people able to enjoy it.

    I have all the graphic novels except #14 and the "arcana" covering Parsifal, but I haven't been able to look through them all, obviously. Do you happen to know which volumes those most excellent images (especially the ones with the maps... ahem) are in?

    That's excellent work, BB4E, and most appreciated. It will definitely come in handy when my own poor mapping efforts get out to that part of Oerik.

    Joe / Greyhawk Grognard
    http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com
    Yeah I put the issue number in the filename of each image. Smile
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 01, 2007
    Posts: 698
    From: NOW IN Cape May, NJ! Loving the new digs!

    Send private message
    Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:27 pm  
    translated Black moon pics!!

    WOW!! HOLY CRAP!!
    Hey! now wait one gosh-darned, cotton-oickin' minute! Those are in ENGLISH!! LOL!! Seriously though, BlueBomber ... did you re-touch the ones that are in English? I have been thinking of doing the same thing.
    I do have one question about it though ... you label the "Marsh Lands". Insofar as I know, marsh or swamp would be something like "marais" in French. It would seem that the "March Lands" would be better translated as "Border Lands". The "marches" of a kingdom were the areas most far removed from the heartlands of that realm. ... and this, as I understand it, is the origin of the rank of Marquis or Marchioness, as those were the lands that they werwe given to rule.
    At any rate ... just thought I would mention it, and ask about how much you've touched up like that.
    _________________
    Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com
    Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal
    Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 01, 2007
    Posts: 698
    From: NOW IN Cape May, NJ! Loving the new digs!

    Send private message
    Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:03 pm  
    Oerth vs. Earth

    So ... Here's another "map" of sorts, that I think is going to kind of throw this conversation a curve-ball. I noticed in Methraton 3: Pharoah last night that there's a global shot of the world of the Black Moon Chronicles ... and while, yes, there's still certain room for explanation (as Bluebomber mentions above, there's a funny little thing that I found:
    [Edited to correct broken link.]

    Anyone recognize that place? It bears a certain resemblance to what we're familiar with doesn't it? That's pretty much the Mediterranean, Europe, Africa ... and the white bolt is landing right about where "Érypt" woud presumably be, right on the corner of north Africa.
    So ... well, there's the propostions that blueBomber put forth. I generally prefer option #2, personally, but, with this information, that would sort of mean that there's gotta be some kind of parallel-stuff going on somewhere. I am not really certain where that places the other maps that are in the comics, but still. Those are great location maps of Lynn, and that makes it easier to go back to the earlier parts of the thread where we talked about the maps, and what would need to be placed where to make it compatible with the Sundered Empire.

    But, nevertheless ... this is clearly a close-Earth analog for this version of the Black Moon Chronicles.

    So, another thing ... I was looking at the "End of Times" issue, and I was thinking that the Cataclysm obviously annihilated most of the world. I don't necessarily think that the world was destroyed ála Alderan, with nothing left but bits ... it easily could've just been a cataclysm-level event. What if that happened to coincide with the end of the God War in the Sundered Empire? The nations of the BMC would be a clean slate, similiar to how the Baklunish and Suel Empires are in the Flanaess ... not that I mean that they need to be wastelands, but that they were wiped out in an ancient cataclysm (or within the past century, I don't know) and all that remains of them is ruins. I mean ... the Flanaess nations are still labelled there, and there's nothing left of them! What makes us think that there's anything left of the others, except the remnants of nations?

    Just a thought or two on where this place is, and what happened to it.
    _________________
    Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com
    Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal
    Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com


    Last edited by Icarus on Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:22 am; edited 7 times in total
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:09 pm  
    Re: translated Black moon pics!!

    Icarus wrote:
    WOW!! HOLY CRAP!!
    Hey! now wait one gosh-darned, cotton-oickin' minute! Those are in ENGLISH!! LOL!! Seriously though, BlueBomber ... did you re-touch the ones that are in English? I have been thinking of doing the same thing.
    I do have one question about it though ... you label the "Marsh Lands". Insofar as I know, marsh or swamp would be something like "marais" in French. It would seem that the "March Lands" would be better translated as "Border Lands". The "marches" of a kingdom were the areas most far removed from the heartlands of that realm. ... and this, as I understand it, is the origin of the rank of Marquis or Marchioness, as those were the lands that they werwe given to rule.
    At any rate ... just thought I would mention it, and ask about how much you've touched up like that.
    I didn't do that, I found a fan translation. Razz
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:15 pm  
    Re: Oerth vs. Earth

    Icarus wrote:
    So ... Here's another "map" of sorts, that I think is going to kind of throw this conversation a curve-ball. I noticed in Methraton 3: Pharoah last night that there's a global shot of the world of the Black Moon Chronicles ... and while, yes, there's still certain room for explanation (as Bluebomber mentions above, there's a funny little thing that I found:

    Anyone recognize that place? It bears a certain resemblance to what we're familiar with doesn't it? That's pretty much the Mediterranean, Europe, Africa ... and the white bolt is landing right about where "Érypt" woud presumably be, right on the corner of north Africa.
    So ... well, there's the propostions that blueBomber put forth. I generally prefer option #2, personally, but, with this information, that would sort of mean that there's gotta be some kind of parallel-stuff going on somewhere. I am not really certain where that places the other maps that are in the comics, but still. Those are great location maps of Lynn, and that makes it easier to go back to the earlier parts of the thread where we talked about the maps, and what would need to be placed where to make it compatible with the Sundered Empire.

    But, nevertheless ... this is clearly a close-Earth analog for this version of the Black Moon Chronicles.
    Well when you look at the MMO map...it pretty much looks like the north of France. Wink

    But that does make conflicts with the plot of the comics easier--it's a "parallel Oerth" and thus not an issue. Happy

    Icarus wrote:
    So, another thing ... I was looking at the "End of Times" issue, and I was thinking that the Cataclysm obviously annihilated most of the world. I don't necessarily think that the world was destroyed ála Alderan, with nothing left but bits ... it easily could've just been a cataclysm-level event. What if that happened to coincide with the end of the God War in the Sundered Empire? The nations of the BMC would be a clean slate, similiar to how the Baklunish and Suel Empires are in the Flanaess ... not that I mean that they need to be wastelands, but that they were wiped out in an ancient cataclysm (or within the past century, I don't know) and all that remains of them is ruins. I mean ... the Flanaess nations are still labelled there, and there's nothing left of them! What makes us think that there's anything left of the others, except the remnants of nations?

    Just a thought or two on where this place is, and what happened to it.
    Unless I was reading it wrong, the world ended with the moon colliding with the earth. That would be it for all life on earth, and about as close to an Alderaan-like situation as you could get.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 28, 2004
    Posts: 344


    Send private message
    Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:51 am  

    This might be a rather lame question, but does anybody know if the series is available as a single tome?

    While it seems nice enough, I'd rather have one single volume than 14 or more different ones. Smile
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 14, 2006
    Posts: 285


    Send private message
    Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:52 am  

    Le Noir Faineant wrote:
    This might be a rather lame question, but does anybody know if the series is available as a single tome?

    While it seems nice enough, I'd rather have one single volume than 14 or more different ones. Smile


    As far as I know, they've never been collected in a single volume, either in French or English. (I'm only missing #14 and the Parsival spin-off.)

    Joe / Greyhawk Grgonard
    http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3772
    From: So. Cal

    Send private message
    Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:06 am  

    One post removed due to Forum Rules violation. Warning issued.

    Also, over three dozen images (so far) is beginning to verge on something more than just reference, especially when some images are of whole comic book pages. I do not think it is too much to ask for people to learn how to crop an image, similar to how one would quote a bit text for reference rather than the whole of the text. Or you could also post a smaller image too. Basically, I don't want to see anyone able to post anything similar to, "If you collect the images from here, here, here, here...here, and here, and put them in this order, you basically have issue #3, and at full resolution!", ever.
    _________________
    - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 13, 2012
    Posts: 116


    Send private message
    Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:01 am  

    Cebrion wrote:


    Also, over three dozen images (so far) is beginning to verge on something more than just reference, especially when some images are of whole comic book pages. I do not think it is too much to ask for people to learn how to crop an image, similar to how one would quote a bit text for reference rather than the whole of the text. Or you could also post a smaller image too. Basically, I don't want to see anyone able to post anything similar to, "If you collect the images from here, here, here, here...here, and here, and put them in this order, you basically have issue #3, and at full resolution!", ever.
    I can assure that isn't going to occur, at least not from me. There's far too much nudity and sexual situations in these issues that I'd never post here. I've more or less found all the useful pictures anyway. If I come across anything else I'll make sure it's more cropped.

    Sorry about image sizes, I have a big 1080p HD monitor so it's hard for me to gauge what is big for other people.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Feb 18, 2007
    Posts: 84


    Send private message
    Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:51 pm  

    Cebrion wrote:
    One post removed due to Forum Rules violation. Warning issued.


    Sorry.

    Sergio :-)
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 14, 2006
    Posts: 285


    Send private message
    Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:13 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    I think this is a very good fantasy setting history, although it weirds me out a bit to think that it's part of Oerth.

    The biggest conflict would be the monotheistic background, I think - apart from the Black Moon religion, everyone seems to revere a single God.


    I've been thinking about this, and I see a parallel between Lynn and the Pale in this respect. Although I think the proper term would be henotheistic. That is, the exclusive worship of a single god, while accepting the existence of others. In much the same way we can see the Empire of Lynn only practicing the worship of its singular god, but in practice in the graphic novels we see acceptance of the existence of other deities as well. The Pale seems to be quite similar in outlook, religiously speaking.

    So while it's not the norm on Oerth, it certainly has precedent.

    I'm revisiting this thread because my beyond the Flanaess mapping project has now hit Black Moon Chronicles territory, and I'm trying to soak up as much info (and reconcile as many geographic issues) as possible.

    Joe / Greyhawk Grognard
    http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 01, 2007
    Posts: 698
    From: NOW IN Cape May, NJ! Loving the new digs!

    Send private message
    Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:06 am  
    thread continued - Empire of Lhynn

    Just thought I would mention that I continued the vein of this discussion onto a more current thread created just for that purpose ...
    Join in the conversation about new western Oerik maps here

    Oh, and Bluebomber, I'd love to see you pipe in on some of the geography stuff, since you seem to be more well-read about the canon contents of the actual comic books. :)

    Shocked (Name Check, table one, please?) Laughing
    _________________
    Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com
    Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal
    Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com
    Display posts from previous:   
       Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion All times are GMT - 8 Hours
    [ Previous  1, 2]
    Page 2 of 2

    Jump to:  

    You cannot post new topics in this forum
    You cannot reply to topics in this forum
    You cannot edit your posts in this forum
    You cannot delete your posts in this forum
    You cannot vote in polls in this forum


    Forums ©


    Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises

    Contact the Webmaster.  Long Live Spidasa!


    Greyhawk Gothic Font by Darlene Pekul is used under the Creative Commons License.

    PHP-Nuke Copyright © 2005 by Francisco Burzi. This is free software, and you may redistribute it under the GPL. PHP-Nuke comes with absolutely no warranty, for details, see the license.
    Page Generation: 0.45 Seconds