All I wanted was a brief discussion about clarifying, in my mind, if I read the sections correctly with respect to Complete Guide to Dwarves and their added proficiency slots, primarily pertaining to the Crafts section.
-Lanthorn
And instead you got a philosophical blizzard on the longevity of the two races.... see there... no good deed goes unpunished.
I think Mystic Scholar has made several valuable points. Though to get to your meat and potatoes. The complete books should be a guideline for your creation and its contents should be considered optional. Not that the same could be said for all rules.
If your going to give all non-human playable races huge bonuses and extra proficiency slots then you have to give humans something to counter act it.
I Like the way MS explains the difference on the races, and how ages are reflected amongst the races.
Ultimately depends on what type of balance your looking for in your game. That is going to determine what you do. Instead of offering craft skill for free for the dwarf character just charge them the listed cost treat craft skills as a class skill for them. The same could be said for the bonus skills for Elves don't just grant them allow it as a class skill pay listed cost.
As we know 2e and many editions have skills or proficiencies based on class. If you take a skill that is not listed for your class you pay double. If the skill is considered General allow it for half the price. So if it normally costs 1 then it could be free. Or if they get multiple proficiencies that cost 1 as a general then one is free the other must be paid for. If the proficiency normally costs 2 points they pay 1.
See what happens when you cause a spark in a dry wood pile? Tsk.
@Dark Lord Galen,
I spent my later teenage years in Baytown, TX (Houston area) and attended Lee Jr. College (now "Community") in '79, for two semesters (one "regular," one Summer) before enlisting in the Army (82nd Airborne Division).
I was there again, for two years, up until 6 months ago, when my situation forced a move to central Pennsylvania.
@Dark Lord Galen,
I spent my later teenage years in Baytown, TX (Houston area) and attended Lee Jr. College (now "Community") in '79, for two semesters (one "regular," one Summer) before enlisting in the Army (82nd Airborne Division).
Wow makes for a small world indeed, I graduated from La Porte HS and your were nearly in my back yard (deer park) only 20 mins from where you discuss, and Took some classes at that same college before transferring to UofH aka Cougar High lol.
It seems the old adage is true about being careful for what one wishes!
Perhaps I will tackle the 'philosophical blizzard' another time. However, as far as my "little quandary" goes with proficiencies, I think I found a balancing medium; or at the least, one that compares to what I've done with elves.
In addition to gaining Dwarf Runes and Endurance free of charge, I will offer 3 CPs for the dwarf to spend on gaining any proficiency listed under the Crafts section. That, at least, will balance the dwarves and elves in terms of slots/CPs.
-Lanthorn
As a sidenote, I see that a Texas tangent has formed. To add to that, I will remark that most relatives on my mom's side are all Texans, and that I have lived in both Dallas and Fort Worth for a sum of 8 yrs during my childhood and adolescence. In fact, I am flying to the Rio Grand Valley in a few days to visit my grandmother, turning 90 yrs.
I'll have to agree. Very nice read. I very much like MS's comments on the mentality of the average elven "teenager". Elves have that "flighty" reputation, and that probably comes in large part from humans mostly interacting with young elves who have yet to become properly serious about some aspect of their life, and to who going out into the wide world is some "grand adventure". Hey, that sounds just like it does for humans of equivalent age, but for elves there is a long period of "teenage" years to mature beyond (would you really want to be an elven parent?). Very alien/inhuman, and not easy to identify with, which is of course great for further differentiating the races, if one plays up the whole "a 70 year-old elf does not have the mentality of a 70 year-old human" thing.
I waffle on the idea of some racial background skills. A dwarf might not be considered an adult until they can take care of themselves underground for instance, or an elf be proficient with a bow and sword. The young dwarf has probably spent literally years toiling in a mine as though, and digging in the dirt doesn't teach them all that much other than their underground skills. Similarly, elves have probably spent years honing their skills with sword an bow, even if they will not eventually go on to make much use of those weapons. Until they reach this sort of achievement level, let alone maturity level, such youths are just not deemed fit to be let loose into the world on their own.
We must remember that demi-humans have exceptional skills as their racial standard, which comes from them having a leg up time-wise over humans. But, a dwarf doesn't know what they do about underground areas just because they are older than a human, or because they have lived underground for decades. No, they know those things because they have spent probably decades digging mines to learn that stuff. Likewise, elves have the bonuses that they do with swords and bows because they spent a decades practicing with them. And they both speak common too, fluently mind you, because it is useful and they have had the time to learn it as well. Gnomes and halflings learn their own things too, for similar reasons.
So, demi-humans have as a standard a few things that are way beyond what normal humans have. I think that where there is a disconnect is with adventurers. Adventurers, of any race, are exceptional individuals. Even a 1st level human is exceptional, but it takes at least an exceptional human to be on par with the average demi-human. That right there says a lot. Some don't see that as being enough though. I see it as being just about right; not only for thee above reasons, but for game balance too. If the demi-human races were that much better than humans, nobody would play a human. The rules, for every single game edition, have had to either hamstring demi-humans or give humans options/bonuses that demi-humans do not have in recompense, just so that humans would be attractive enough to play. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Last edited by Cebrion on Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:26 pm; edited 2 times in total
Sure. As time goes on though, an elf will still be flighty while their human friends will be much more mature and serious. Just think, potty humor among elven children would approach the level of art form, from the human perspective, before they outgrew it. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Last edited by Cebrion on Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:05 am; edited 1 time in total
So, if I'm understanding your arguments correctly Cebrion, you are primarily promoting the idea I expressed in my alternative philosophy on the first page:
SirXaris wrote:
An alternative viewpoint may be reasoned in that elves and dwarves have been created by their respective deities with different temperaments than the human deities endowed within their creations. These different temperaments affect the various races' ability to learn new skills and advance old ones.
An alternative viewpoint may be reasoned in that elves and dwarves have been created by their respective deities with different temperaments than the human deities endowed within their creations. These different temperaments affect the various races' ability to learn new skills and advance old ones.
I'm not sure I would consider that as an "alternate viewpoint," but rather, as a "given." The gods are as different from each other as are their creations.
One group of gods said: "Let us make Man in our image."
Another group said: "Let us make Elves in our image."
Yet another group said: "Let us make Dwarves in our image."
Given the (mostly) accepted cosmology of Oerth, I'd say that's a "fair" assessment of what happened.
This also explains -- in my world -- why the gods, themselves, constantly war with one another. For example; monsters. In my world, "evil" cannot "create." It can only corrupt. Much like with Tolkien, evil gods began to corrupt the creations of the Gods of Good/Law/Order/Nature et al.
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