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One of the founders of our hobby and one of the most unsung contributors to Dungeons & Dragons, Len Lakofka has passed away at the age of 76.
Along with the many adventures, classes, spells, and rules he created,
Len was also father of the Suel in Greyhawk, designer of their gods, and namesake of the Lendore Isles.
The value of his work goes without saying, but his presence will be sorely missed. The adventures of Leomund go on.
Len Lakofka 1944-2020
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    Mapping Beyond the Flanaess
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:10 am  
    Mapping Beyond the Flanaess

    Hey all, just wanted to let you know that the next in my series of Darlene-style maps of the lands outside the Flanaess has just been posted on my blog:

    http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com/2012/03/beyond-flanaess-zindia-and-golden.html

    This map covers western Zindia, southeastern Suhfang (Shufeng), and so forth. I've also made some updates to the first map, which is also included in the link above.

    Enjoy!

    Joe / Greyhawk Grognard
    http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com


    Last edited by GreyhawkGrognard on Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:41 am; edited 1 time in total
    GreySage

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    Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:09 am  

    As always, this looks really good. It's a really beautiful map.

    And as always, the juxtaposition of random cultures in random places makes me feel like my head is going to explode. Not your fault entirely, but it looks like someone tore up a map of Asia, threw the fragments in the air, and decided wherever they landed was good enough. Cut-up techniques are great if your name is William Burroughs, but less so if you're trying to build a coherent fantasy world.
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    Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:47 am  

    Doesn't bother me in the least. After all, as you say, it's a fantasy world.

    But, for the sake of argument, let's explore your statement as it applies to this particular map. I'll use my own non-canon term Woguo for the Japan-analogue nation; fill in whatever other non- or semi-canonical name you feel works for your game (Nippon, Ryuujin, etc.).

    In the real world, India is proximate to China, with an intervening mountain range. In Oerik, Zindia is proximate to Suhfang, with an intervening mountain range.

    In the real world, Japan and India are separated by the Pacific and Indian Oceans, a journey of some 3,000 or so nautical miles. In Oerik, Woguo and Zindia are separated by the Sea of Woguo, a journey of some 1,000 miles. Granted, it's a shorter journey, but not one which is inconceivably so.

    In the real world, Japan undertook a military adventure which involved the occupation of a large swath of the Asian mainland, including parts of China, Singapore, Korea, and Manchuria. In Oerik, Woguo has occupied a large swath of the Oerikian mainland, including several lands which are part of the Sufang Imperium historically and culturally, as well as other, related but not identical lands.

    In the real world, Chinese culture expanded across broad deserts and high mountains, influencing (if not outright conquering) societies on its borders. In Oerik, Suhfang culture has expanded across broad deserts and high mountains, influencing (if not outright conquering) societies on its borders. Including the range of mountains that run down the peninsula that forms the Woguo Dominion (which is conveniently pierced by marked mountain passes, I might add).

    In the real world, Japan was culturally influenced by the proximity of China. In Oerik, Woguo can be said to be influenced by the proximity of those Suhfangese lands south and west of the Sea of Woguo. A lack of Zindian influence can be explained in any number of ways, especially postulating a relatively isolationist Woguo prior to its current expansionist phase, the lack of a centralized Zindian imperial government to press for relations, etc.

    Where you are offended by the lack of realism given the spread of cultures, I might argue (playing Asmodeus' Advocate) just the opposite, that what you see is TOO similar to the real world. Just like many (myself included) don't like the use of the term "Nippon" because it's just too close to reality.

    The only real juxtaposition so far is moving Japan somewhat closer to India, and any number of reasons could be given to account for a relative lack of Zindian influence in Woguoan culture. Or you could inject some influence. Make their religion more based on Hinduism than Taoism. The possibilities are endless. As stated, it's a fantasy world, and we're dealing with areas that are, at best, names on a map.
    Master Greytalker

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    Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:07 am  

    Thulcondar; did you receive my pm Question

    I really would like to discuss the map and ensure the various manuscript match. Several of us, including myself, have worked hard on the celestial imperium and the cartographical landscape has been altered significantly.

    I would really like to send you my paint version, albeit rough though it is.

    Plz email me....
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:31 am  

    Hi Crag; no I haven't received any PM from you.
    GreySage

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    Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:14 pm  

    It is a fantasy world, and even if it isn't one I personally like, it's still a great map.

    Crag: I like the idea of having several alternate maps, so that we can choose which ones we like best. I don't see any reason why your version of the region needs to be the same as Thulcondar's.

    Thulcondar: I apologize. You didn't invite anyone to turn your thread into a debate, and I should've kept my arguments to my own thread. Or just made my own damn map.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:28 pm  

    Two more beautiful maps. This is really great work, Joe! Well done!

    EDIT: The title of your post on the blog about the John Carter movie -- brilliant, sir!
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:35 pm  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    The title of your post on the blog about the John Carter movie -- brilliant, sir!


    Heh, thanks.

    And, of course, thanks for the kind words about the maps.
    GreySage

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    Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:13 pm  

    I'll tell you the one thing I like most about your maps, Thulcondar - it's the inclusion of more forests and grasslands than the other mpas I've seen put in those regions and fewer deserts. Happy Nice.

    SirXaris
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    Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:47 pm  

    I've only got a moment, but I like this map far, far more than any other treatment I've seen of the western Flanaess. I like it because it doesn't quote real-life as its primary text, I like it because it doesn't match someone else's imagination, and I like it because it looks like fun.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:09 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    And as always, the juxtaposition of random cultures in random places makes me feel like my head is going to explode. Not your fault entirely, but it looks like someone tore up a map of Asia, threw the fragments in the air, and decided wherever they landed was good enough.


    So head-exploding is good? Because I think that's a brilliant idea, and I want to try it. Happy
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    Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:25 pm  

    Many thanks for the kind words, Nellisir!
    GreySage

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    Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:05 pm  

    Nellisir wrote:
    Because I think that's a brilliant idea, and I want to try it. Happy


    Admittedly that might be awesome, if you spent some time considering how those cultures might interact in new and interesting ways, instead of spending time rationalizing why they wouldn't interact at all. That's the part that drives me crazy here.

    I would adore a setting that seriously considered the isles as an intersection of Zindian, Olman, and Japanese cultures (and will probably write one up, eventually). When regions are allowed to blend with their neighbors, they feel like a living and breathing part of a world.

    I have very strong feelings about world-building. It's not that I want events on Oerth to unfurl exactly in the way they did on Earth; it's that I want them to unfurl differently, especially in places where the geography and mix of cultures is very different. On a map that looks like a scrambled version of Asia, I want the cultures to be permitted to run together. Or I'd prefer that Asia wasn't quoted so heavily at all.

    The only problem I have with these particular maps are the names. If they were more like the pure fantasy names we see in the Flanaess I wouldn't have an issue. I love many aspects of this map - the terrain, as Sir Xaris said, and the thought put into it. Where I dislike this map it's because it comes far too close to quoting real-life as its primary text. It's antithetical in that respect to the Flanaess, which allows itself to not be Earth. Yes, it's perfectly possible to imagine a version of this archipelago that's unlike Japan in every respect except for the very Japanese names, but the very Japanese names are a sticking point for me. No part of the Flanaess owes so much to a single real-world culture.

    Your mileage, as always, may vary.

    And yes, I promised I'd stay out of this thread. People should really stop summoning me just when I'm trying to get to sleep and at my most vulnerable to temptation. I'm sure I'll regret this in the morning.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:26 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    instead of spending time rationalizing why they wouldn't interact at all. That's the part that drives me crazy here.


    If you'd take the time to read my latest blog post, inspired in part by your... shall we say... negative response to my maps, you would know that "rationalizing why they wouldn't interact at all" isn't by any stretch of the imagination the point. But...

    Quote:
    And yes, I promised I'd stay out of this thread. People should really stop summoning me just when I'm trying to get to sleep and at my most vulnerable to temptation. I'm sure I'll regret this in the morning.


    Indeed.

    Joe / Greyhawk Grognard
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    Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:53 pm  

    Thulcondar wrote:

    If you'd take the time to read my latest blog post


    Feel free to use this thread to tell us when you update your blog with more thoughts on this issue. I admit that you're not a daily read for me, though it isn't because your blog isn't entertaining. I just haven't formed the habit yet. If you keep me posted on this forum, that may well change.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:02 pm  

    Thanks for your most kind permission as to what I may post in this thread. It's definitely appreciated.
    GreySage

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    Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:22 pm  

    It was more of a suggestion, actually. It'd make it easier for me to keep up.
    GreySage

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    Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:24 pm  

    Thulcondar wrote:

    If you'd take the time to read my latest blog post, inspired in part by your... shall we say... negative response to my maps, you would know that "rationalizing why they wouldn't interact at all" isn't by any stretch of the imagination the point. But...


    Having finally gotten around to reading your blog post, I see there are still some misunderstandings. I am emphatically not "ripping into" your maps because they're based on the Dragon Annual #1 map.

    I don't at all dislike Skip Williams' work on the region; I think putting the "Japanese" region in such an unlikely place is an exciting opportunity to develop a culture completely unlike any that could have formed on Earth.

    My only complaint is the names you chose, which are (except for "Sea of the Dragon King" and the Gygaxian names of the Zindian nations) yours and yours alone.

    There's no particular canonical reason to give the isles of "Wuguo" Japanese-style names, let alone the lands they've only recently conquered according to Dragon Annual #1. Yes, "Nippon" is a Japanese name, but Skip Williams' article is pretty clear that it isn't the land's true name. There are plenty of alternatives - the islands could have a mix of different cultural inspirations (including Japan!), or they could have names that come purely from fantasy. Neither did canon dictate that the other side of the peninsula should have Chinese-style names. It doesn't even require Zindia to be purely Indian in inspiration.

    I'm sorry you felt I was "ripping into" your maps, in any case. I tried to balance my whiny opinions with well-earned praise for your painstaking efforts. Your maps turned out really well - they look really good, and they're very useful resources. My response wasn't at all purely negative. My opinions aside, I don't even want you to change them; they're great as they are, and perfect for someone who wants the mix of cultures you do.

    But with as much work as you clearly put into these maps, I'd think you'd want credit for them. Skip Williams didn't research and choose those names - you did.

    I hope this clears up any confusion.
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    Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:44 am  

    I renamed the thread; I figured it would make more sense to have one big thread for all my map announcements, rather than 17 individual ones.

    For lo! and behold, I've come out with the next map in the series. It covers eastern Suhfang, eastern Orcreich, and the Gulf of Ghayar region.

    http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com/2012/03/mapping-beyond-flanaess-eastern-suhfang.html

    Enjoy!

    Joe / Greyhawk Grognard
    GreySage

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    Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:38 pm  

    The "Gray Peaks" have a canonical name, incidentally: the Tyurzi Mountains (Against the Giants: The Liberation of Geoff, page 4).

    The map looks great, though, as always.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:02 pm  

    Hey, that's an obscure, but great, piece of info. I'll rename the range with the next iteration. Thank goodness. Grey Peaks wasn't a particularly good name.

    Thanks!

    Joe / Greyhawk Grognard
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    Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:00 pm  

    Another day, another Darlene-style map of the West. It's a somewhat easier one, since it's got a lot of blank space in the High and Low Khanates, but I never thought I'd do it in one day. I give you the Low Khanate and central Suhfang (I also touched up the previous map, and they are shown side-by-side on the blog):

    http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com/2012/03/mapping-beyond-flanaess-low-khanate-and.html

    Joe / Greyhawk Grognard
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    Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:44 am  

    Looks great, though I must say that the term "Orcrecih" always has me thinking of the orc which says, "Frühstück in Isengard!" from Ralph Bakshi's "The Lord of the Rings" animated feature. Laughing

    I can afford to be somewhat forgiving though, seeing how nice these are turning out. Keep up the good work! Cool
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    Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:29 am  

    Just a bit of housekeeping; my username is now GreyhawkGrognard, rather than Thulcondar. Yay!

    Joe / Greyhawk Grognard
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    Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:33 am  

    Question: who owns/runs the valley on the northern coastal border between the orc lands and the khanates? It looks like there's a capital noted there.
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    Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:42 am  

    Jeminnab wrote:
    Question: who owns/runs the valley on the northern coastal border between the orc lands and the khanates? It looks like there's a capital noted there.


    If you look carefully, it's a free city, not a capital.

    As noted in the text on the blog, that's something I threw in there, a free town full of renegade nomads and humanoids.

    So, to answer your question, neither the orcs nor the nomads own the valley. In my campaign, anyway.

    Joe / Greyhawk Grognard
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    Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:28 am  

    The next map in the series is now up! I give you the Celestial Sea:

    http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com/2012/04/mapping-beyond-flanaess-celestial-sea.html

    Joe / Greyhawk Grognard
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    Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:07 pm  

    Very nice! Happy
    GreySage

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    Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:07 pm  

    I like it, Joe! Looks good. Smile

    SirXaris
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    Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:43 am  

    The next map in the series is now up on the blog. Naresh and northwestern Suhfang:

    http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com/2012/04/mapping-beyond-flanaess-naresh-and.html

    I'm starting to move into Sundered Empire territory now, so fans of that setting will (hopefully) be able to enjoy these as well.

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    Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:39 pm  



    Last edited by BlueWitch on Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:58 am  

    They're all available in full size, Bluewitch. Look to the right on the blog, under "Free Resources". Links to all of them are there.

    Joe / GG
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    Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:14 am  



    Last edited by BlueWitch on Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:10 am  

    GreyhawkGrognard wrote:
    They're all available in full size, Bluewitch. Look to the right on the blog, under "Free Resources". Links to all of them are there.

    Joe / GG


    Joe, your link for "Mapping Beyond the Flanaess: Zindia and the Golden Jungle" (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?k5kybp9b793t9bc177) is not working for me.

    Thanks!

    Sergio :-)
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    Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:50 am  

    These are beautiful maps, Joe, and highly inspirational! I think I may finally build my own versions this summer. I have a technical question for you - I bought the Hexographer pro version a while back, but haven't figured out how to do coastlines, or anything else that splits a hex. Were these just all individually-drawn custom hexes, or did you have to "color in" the water part of a land hex?
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    Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:19 pm  

    Bluewitch: That's actually just one map. It covers both Naresh and northwestern Suhfang. Smile

    Sergio: Apologies! I've fixed the link. One of the perils of making periodic updates. Let me know if you still have any trouble.

    Chevalier: The coastlines are my cross to bear, and can be a real pain to get 100% right. It starts off with a shape, which forms the outermost layer of ocean. If you set that shape to "above terrain", you can have the coast cut through hexes with no problem. Where it gets tricky is when you have successive shapes stacked atop one another to get the Darlene depth-line effect, and you want to have islands with terrain on them as well. Took me a long time to figure out that conundrum, I'll tell you!

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    Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:19 pm  



    Last edited by BlueWitch on Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:18 am  

    You've got them all; six so far (although number seven is on the way).

    When I post a new map, I try to post the old maps that are adjacent to it, so you can get the "big picture" as to where it fits into the whole.

    Glad you like them!

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    Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:11 am  

    GreyhawkGrognard wrote:
    Sergio: Apologies! I've fixed the link. One of the perils of making periodic updates. Let me know if you still have any trouble.


    Thanks a lot Joe, work fine.

    Sergio :-)
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    Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:57 pm  

    And hot on the heels of the last one, a new map (covering the Ahmut's Legion area) is now available, as well as two touched-up versions of previous maps.

    http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com/2012/04/mapping-beyond-flanaess-ahmuts-legion.html

    Joe / GG
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    Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:08 pm  

    Joe, you're doing an incredible job and I wouldn't worry too much about the emptiness of space in Western Oerik. Leave that up to future development. Rome wasn't built in a day, ya?
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    Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:38 am  

    A Prester John type kingdom is a good idea..
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    Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:41 am  

    mortellan wrote:
    Joe, you're doing an incredible job and I wouldn't worry too much about the emptiness of space in Western Oerik. Leave that up to future development. Rome wasn't built in a day, ya?


    Maybe this is future development. Cool

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    Sat Apr 21, 2012 4:17 pm  

    Great looking stuff! That's a lot of desert! Laughing Must be some oases in there, or some non-sandy flat lands, or some buttes, or some rocky hill lands, or some sparse grasslands, or valleys/canyons, or something else in there, somewhere.

    Not that they couldn't be added at some future date or anything... Wink
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    Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:13 am  

    Next one's up on the blog; Ravilla and Mordengard:

    http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com/2012/04/mapping-beyond-flanaess-ravilla-and.html

    Cebrion; absolutely. I usually end up adding things when I do the adjacent map, which in this case will be the next up on the list.

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    Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:14 am  

    I've just posted three new maps for my "Mapping Beyond the Flanaess" project. This batch finishes up the Sundered Empire region as well as the Empire of Lynn. Enjoy!

    http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com/2012/04/mapping-beyond-flanaess-sundered-empire.html
    GreySage

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    Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:22 am  

    Love the maps, Joe.

    Thanks for sharing with us.
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    Tue May 01, 2012 10:34 am  

    I think you did a great job of fitting Lynn in and dealing with contradictions with Chainmail and the Dragon Annual map! Smile

    However, I did notice a few errors:

    designation As pointed out by Icarus in the Lynn thread, the fan translation I posted of the "Marsh Lands" map should actually be "March Lands" i.e. the Territories of the Marches. All of the cities listed are those described in the fan rpg as being in the dry border region of the empire, east of Moork. The Kashoc Mountains can replace the Scorched Mountains if that makes it easier. You could keep the marsh hexes where they are and place the city of Magistrya there instead, since I noticed that it's missing and it would be in that part of the Empire anyway. Smile

    designation Likewise, Der Hem Shelben is depicted as being in a desert, I'd suggest either moving it eastward, just north of the Enllaves tribeland, or just making the hexes surrounding it desert instead of grassland

    designation "Empire of Lynn" should be in larger text, so it is clear Horkher, Moork, etc. are part of the Empire. Also Sysigie and Drakh should be listed as a Principality and Kingdom, respectively. Wink

    Also, I have an idea that might interest you for the Tharquish Empire. I was going through my Ravenloft collection and remembered that the darklord of Vechor, Easan, is a wood elf from Greyhawk. The backstory is that he was from the Vesve forest and got captured by Iuz. Iuz grafted a fiend onto Easan's psyche, driving him insane. Easan wandered the world in search of solace and found it on the island of Vechor, but the fiend's malice ended up driving Easan to destroy the island. When Easan eventually became a darklord of Ravenloft, his domain was named after that island and is a tropical land populated by humans with a bronze age Greco-Roman culture. I was thinking that the remains of Oerth's Vechor island could be similar to the Santorini caldera. (It also helps that "Vechor" is a latin word, which gels with the Tharque Empire's Roman overtones Wink)
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    Tue May 01, 2012 6:03 pm  

    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    I think you did a great job of fitting Lynn in and dealing with contradictions with Chainmail and the Dragon Annual map! Smile

    However, I did notice a few errors:

    designation As pointed out by Icarus in the Lynn thread, the fan translation I posted of the "Marsh Lands" map should actually be "March Lands" i.e. the Territories of the Marches. All of the cities listed are those described in the fan rpg as being in the dry border region of the empire, east of Moork.


    I'm not sure how much I would trust the Google-translated fan-created stuff. Looking at the map in the graphic novel itself, there's lots of woods and lakes there. Hardly a "dry" region.

    There's also the issue of just how far I'm willing to shove Drazen's Horde eastward to make room for Lynn. That's one of the issues inherent in reconciling the three disparate sources, as you noted above. Froidal didn't know about Drazen's Horde, the Chainmail stuff didn't account for Lynn, and the DA #1 map has Lynn extending about 3000 miles into the desert. Making it all work together is... challenging.

    I did track down the original French version of the first book, however, and the phrase used there is "Territoiries des Marches". I don't think the translation into "Territories of the Marshes" is a fan-injected thing, though; it says the same in my English copy. Rather, I think it's a mistranslation by the publisher. Still, it's fun to play with such things, turning them from mistakes into sources of new inspiration, what I call "canon reconciliation". We shall see.

    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    The Kashoc Mountains can replace the Scorched Mountains if that makes it easier.


    Alas, no; even though the fit is not exact, several of the images in the books place volcanoes just southwest of Moork and east-southeast of Lynn. So that's got to be the Scorched Mountains from the online game map. Does the easternmost tip of the mountains perhaps have a different name? Unlikely, but possible. I'll fiddle with it.

    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    You could keep the marsh hexes where they are and place the city of Magistrya there instead, since I noticed that it's missing and it would be in that part of the Empire anyway. Smile

    designation Likewise, Der Hem Shelben is depicted as being in a desert, I'd suggest either moving it eastward, just north of the Enllaves tribeland, or just making the hexes surrounding it desert instead of grassland


    Moving it across the mountains into the desert doesn't work, because given the name and the style of the architecture and statuary, it clearly belongs to the well-watered and Mesopotamian-inspired Ishtarland. Perhaps the site in the books is in a sandy patch? I might throw in a few hexes of sand near the mountains to cover the specific site mentioned in the books, but the territory as a whole needs to be grassland, methinks.

    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    designation "Empire of Lynn" should be in larger text, so it is clear Horkher, Moork, etc. are part of the Empire. Also Sysigie and Drakh should be listed as a Principality and Kingdom, respectively. Wink


    I actually considered doing that, but the larger text thing isn't a convention I used universally on the maps, but rather only when I wanted to... ahem... fill in some of the wide open spaces. I'll consider it for the inevitable revision when I do the Tharquish map.

    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    Also, I have an idea that might interest you for the Tharquish Empire. I was going through my Ravenloft collection and remembered that the darklord of Vechor, Easan, is a wood elf from Greyhawk. The backstory is that he was from the Vesve forest and got captured by Iuz. Iuz grafted a fiend onto Easan's psyche, driving him insane. Easan wandered the world in search of solace and found it on the island of Vechor, but the fiend's malice ended up driving Easan to destroy the island. When Easan eventually became a darklord of Ravenloft, his domain was named after that island and is a tropical land populated by humans with a bronze age Greco-Roman culture. I was thinking that the remains of Oerth's Vechor island could be similar to the Santorini caldera. (It also helps that "Vechor" is a latin word, which gels with the Tharque Empire's Roman overtones Wink)


    Awesome-- that was something with which I wasn't acquainted. There are several islands that would serve. Is it covered in anything besides "Domains of Dread" and "Realms of Terror"?

    Thanks much. This is very helpful.

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    Tue May 01, 2012 7:34 pm  

    GreyhawkGrognard wrote:
    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    I think you did a great job of fitting Lynn in and dealing with contradictions with Chainmail and the Dragon Annual map! Smile

    However, I did notice a few errors:

    designation As pointed out by Icarus in the Lynn thread, the fan translation I posted of the "Marsh Lands" map should actually be "March Lands" i.e. the Territories of the Marches. All of the cities listed are those described in the fan rpg as being in the dry border region of the empire, east of Moork.


    I'm not sure how much I would trust the Google-translated fan-created stuff. Looking at the map in the graphic novel itself, there's lots of woods and lakes there. Hardly a "dry" region.

    There's also the issue of just how far I'm willing to shove Drazen's Horde eastward to make room for Lynn. That's one of the issues inherent in reconciling the three disparate sources, as you noted above. Froidal didn't know about Drazen's Horde, the Chainmail stuff didn't account for Lynn, and the DA #1 map has Lynn extending about 3000 miles into the desert. Making it all work together is... challenging.

    I did track down the original French version of the first book, however, and the phrase used there is "Territoiries des Marches". I don't think the translation into "Territories of the Marshes" is a fan-injected thing, though; it says the same in my English copy. Rather, I think it's a mistranslation by the publisher. Still, it's fun to play with such things, turning them from mistakes into sources of new inspiration, what I call "canon reconciliation". We shall see.
    Well I think it's more important that it's on the borders even if it's not dry. It's the kind of place that's so remote that it's mostly neglected, which is why Wismerhill and his gang are able to cause so much trouble there in the early issues.

    GreyhawkGrognard wrote:
    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    You could keep the marsh hexes where they are and place the city of Magistrya there instead, since I noticed that it's missing and it would be in that part of the Empire anyway. Smile

    designation Likewise, Der Hem Shelben is depicted as being in a desert, I'd suggest either moving it eastward, just north of the Enllaves tribeland, or just making the hexes surrounding it desert instead of grassland


    Moving it across the mountains into the desert doesn't work, because given the name and the style of the architecture and statuary, it clearly belongs to the well-watered and Mesopotamian-inspired Ishtarland. Perhaps the site in the books is in a sandy patch? I might throw in a few hexes of sand near the mountains to cover the specific site mentioned in the books, but the territory as a whole needs to be grassland, methinks.
    Der Hem Selben is featured in issues 7 and 8, which I don't have, but from what I've read (reviews and message board discussions) & the one picture I do have from the last issue, I think it's supposed to be a haunted desert ruin. It looks like it used to be fertile at one time but is now dry--maybe it's from a curse?

    GreyhawkGrognard wrote:
    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    designation "Empire of Lynn" should be in larger text, so it is clear Horkher, Moork, etc. are part of the Empire. Also Sysigie and Drakh should be listed as a Principality and Kingdom, respectively. Wink


    I actually considered doing that, but the larger text thing isn't a convention I used universally on the maps, but rather only when I wanted to... ahem... fill in some of the wide open spaces. I'll consider it for the inevitable revision when I do the Tharquish map.
    Fair enough.

    GreyhawkGrognard wrote:
    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    Also, I have an idea that might interest you for the Tharquish Empire. I was going through my Ravenloft collection and remembered that the darklord of Vechor, Easan, is a wood elf from Greyhawk. The backstory is that he was from the Vesve forest and got captured by Iuz. Iuz grafted a fiend onto Easan's psyche, driving him insane. Easan wandered the world in search of solace and found it on the island of Vechor, but the fiend's malice ended up driving Easan to destroy the island. When Easan eventually became a darklord of Ravenloft, his domain was named after that island and is a tropical land populated by humans with a bronze age Greco-Roman culture. I was thinking that the remains of Oerth's Vechor island could be similar to the Santorini caldera. (It also helps that "Vechor" is a latin word, which gels with the Tharque Empire's Roman overtones Wink)


    Awesome-- that was something with which I wasn't acquainted. There are several islands that would serve. Is it covered in anything besides "Domains of Dread" and "Realms of Terror"?

    Thanks much. This is very helpful.
    Just Domains of Dread, really. Although the 3rd edition Ravenloft Campaign Setting hardcover does give some more details on the domain in the demiplane.

    You're welcome! Smile
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    Wed May 02, 2012 2:14 am  

    http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/wiki/Easan_the_Mad

    Related: http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/wiki/Ahmi_Vanjuko
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    Wed May 02, 2012 5:17 am  

    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    Der Hem Selben is featured in issues 7 and 8, which I don't have, but from what I've read (reviews and message board discussions) & the one picture I do have from the last issue, I think it's supposed to be a haunted desert ruin. It looks like it used to be fertile at one time but is now dry--maybe it's from a curse?


    Issue 7 just shows the haunted city itself, which is clearly in desert (and looks to be up against some mountains; the man likes him mountains everywhere). It doesn't show the army moving through the rest of the province. Issue 8 takes place indoors (the parts in Der Hem Selben, anyway). I'm inclined to say the desert is localized, and either only a hex or two, or not even large enough to show up on a map at this scale (the same way most dungeons, even ruined cities, aren't depicted).

    Perhaps if we ever figure out a way to get books 5-14 translated into English, it'll be easier to figure this stuff out!

    Joe / Greyhawk Grognard
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    Wed May 09, 2012 7:34 am  

    Incredible work.
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    Wed May 16, 2012 11:18 am  

    Thanks Nellisir.

    In fact, the next map in the series is now posted on my blog, and some fixes to the Free States map as well.

    The current map shows the Tharquish Empire and the Tarquis Dominions, a whoooole lot of ocean, and a tiny chunk of Gonduria.

    http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com/2012/05/mapping-beyond-flanaess-tharquish.html

    Enjoy!

    Joe / Greyhawk Grognard
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    Wed May 16, 2012 12:21 pm  

    That's another great-looking map, Joe! Its features are much more interesting than the larger maps I've seen of the area.

    SirXaris
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    Fri May 18, 2012 3:54 pm  

    These things tend to come in spurts from me, and here we go with another map. This time Ishtarland, the Red Kingdom, and the western half of the Barbarian Seameast:

    http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com/2012/05/mapping-beyond-flanaess-ishtarland.html

    Enjoy!

    Joe / GG
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    Fri May 18, 2012 9:42 pm  

    Did anyone ever find out what a "seameast" is? Is it Seam East or Sea Meast?
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    Fri May 18, 2012 10:18 pm  

    Perfect!

    Question: are you going to do Fireland too?
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    Sat May 19, 2012 4:20 am  

    mortellan wrote:
    Did anyone ever find out what a "seameast" is? Is it Seam East or Sea Meast?


    Well, "meast" is Anglo-saxon for "most", which doesn't really help all that much.

    Joe / GG
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    Sat May 19, 2012 4:22 am  

    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    Perfect!

    Question: are you going to do Fireland too?


    Eventually, yes. The trouble is, it's juuuuust a little too wide to fit on a single Darlene-style map. I'm considering some options.

    Joe / GG
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    Sat May 19, 2012 1:57 pm  

    And a gazeteer planned too!!!! Christmas has come waaay too early Happy
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    Tue May 22, 2012 4:50 am  

    The next map in the series has been posted:

    http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com/2012/05/mapping-beyond-flanaess-barbarian.html

    Joe / GG
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    Tue May 22, 2012 11:20 am  

    great maps! I even used those for my campaign, the PC have been to Nippon/Ryujin(i prefer this name :P) and now are in Erypt(Khemit)
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    Wed May 23, 2012 4:42 am  

    And now the final map in the series:

    http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com/2012/05/mapping-beyond-flanaess-ocean-of-storms.html

    But a few final cleaning-up things will be coming in the next day or three.

    Joe / GG
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    Wed May 23, 2012 10:08 am  

    All Together, Now!

    http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com/2012/05/mapping-beyond-flanaess-all-together.html



    There's also a single .rar file with all the maps within it. Whew!

    Joe / GG
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    Wed May 23, 2012 4:14 pm  

    That's one beautiful map, Joe! Very nicely done. :)

    SirXaris
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    Wed May 23, 2012 7:00 pm  
    Mapping Beyond the Flanaess

    Are you planning on mapping Fireland and Antaria as well?
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    Wed May 23, 2012 7:29 pm  

    Antaria? Perhaps you refer to Gonduria...

    http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com/2012/03/gonduria-aquaria-and-oerths-four.html

    But seriously, no. No plans to continue at the present time, but, as Haviland Tuf has said, "it is in the nature of plans to be changed."

    Joe / GG
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    Wed May 23, 2012 8:41 pm  

    Impressive project. Nice homage to the Darlene maps.

    I'm sure she would appreciate the effort as we all do.

    Great work you grognard!

    Later

    Argon
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    Thu May 24, 2012 5:14 am  

    Holy Smokes! Greyhawkgrognard, that's a thing of beauty. To wander back in here after being gone for so long and to see what you've done is awe-inspiring.
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    Thu May 24, 2012 8:37 pm  

    Awesome work, man.

    By the way, I'm curious as to what you envision the people of the Barbarian Seameast are like?
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    Sun May 27, 2012 5:03 pm  

    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    By the way, I'm curious as to what you envision the people of the Barbarian Seameast are like?


    When I first got the Dragon Annual #1 in the mail back in 1996, I wondered the same thing. My solution was to page through the rest of the issue, look at "Bazaare of the Bizarre: Strange Armor" on page 31, and speculate that some of the exotic cultures mentioned in that article existed in the thinly-detailed realms of Western Oerik.

    "The forest-dwelling Bakara of the Rabak Forest do not have ready access to metals of any sort; what they do have are rabak trees, which provide a soft wood that, when treated by a special resin, becomes pliable yet very tough."

    "The elves of the Sindarathain Mountains... have specially bred giant spiders to produce armor-grade thread."

    "The Asheirans are warlike but honorable. PCs may encounter them as mercenaries or adventurers, as allies or enemies."

    "Unfortunately, the Renthi paid little heed to the ways of war and were destroyed by the barbaric Tuathal. The Tuathal did not assimilate cultures they conquered..."

    "...the all-female guard of the Windlord Adrasta..."

    While the Sindar elves would be more likely to be found in the mountains near Ravilla, any of the other cultures mentioned in that article, where exotic peoples make armor out of wood or living crustaceans or beetles or translucent layers of force, might be appropriate for the Barbarian Seameast.

    Other than that, I'd look at Patagonia for inspiration on the terrain and climate of the region, though perhaps not with anything equivalent to the Andes Mountains.
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    Sun May 27, 2012 10:33 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    Bluebomber4evr wrote:
    By the way, I'm curious as to what you envision the people of the Barbarian Seameast are like?


    When I first got the Dragon Annual #1 in the mail back in 1996, I wondered the same thing. My solution was to page through the rest of the issue, look at "Bazaare of the Bizarre: Strange Armor" on page 31, and speculate that some of the exotic cultures mentioned in that article existed in the thinly-detailed realms of Western Oerik.

    "The forest-dwelling Bakara of the Rabak Forest do not have ready access to metals of any sort; what they do have are rabak trees, which provide a soft wood that, when treated by a special resin, becomes pliable yet very tough."

    "The elves of the Sindarathain Mountains... have specially bred giant spiders to produce armor-grade thread."

    "The Asheirans are warlike but honorable. PCs may encounter them as mercenaries or adventurers, as allies or enemies."

    "Unfortunately, the Renthi paid little heed to the ways of war and were destroyed by the barbaric Tuathal. The Tuathal did not assimilate cultures they conquered..."

    "...the all-female guard of the Windlord Adrasta..."

    While the Sindar elves would be more likely to be found in the mountains near Ravilla, any of the other cultures mentioned in that article, where exotic peoples make armor out of wood or living crustaceans or beetles or translucent layers of force, might be appropriate for the Barbarian Seameast.

    Other than that, I'd look at Patagonia for inspiration on the terrain and climate of the region, though perhaps not with anything equivalent to the Andes Mountains.
    That's actually really awesome! Very weird and exotic. Happy
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    Tue May 29, 2012 9:06 am  
    Beyond Beyond

    I thought you guys might like a version of Barsoom which is beyond beyond the Flaness:

    http://www.amazon.com/Mars-Globe-Clear-Acrylic-Stand/dp/B000Z9HG5S/ref=reg_hu-rd_add_1_dp
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    Sun Jun 24, 2012 11:35 am  

    These maps are gorgeous, and evoke memories of the old Darlene maps. How exactly did you draw these?
    I've been helping Crag with some of his work on Darak Urtage and the Celestial Imperium, and he recently sent me some files about what looks like a much larger Beyond The Flanaess project. Is there something concerted going on for this, or is it just something guys like Crag and Grognard have been working on independently? I ask because what Crag sent me seems to be an attempt at capturing a definitive Beyond The Flanaess among Greyhawk fandom.

    I have my own ideas on what's beyond the Flanaess, mostly things I've made up myself because I've never read the Dragon Annual article.
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