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    Canonfire :: View topic - Something that we must sort out once and for all
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    Something that we must sort out once and for all

    Do dwarven women have beards?
    Yes
    64%
     64%  [ 22 ]
    No
    35%
     35%  [ 12 ]
    Total Votes : 34

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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:59 pm  
    Something that we must sort out once and for all

    In Greyhawk, in Flanaess specifically, do dwarven women have beards?

    I think we can all agree that they are able to grow beards but the real question is that do they shave it or not?
    GreySage

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    Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:27 am  

    It depends on the dwarf woman in question, and her culture. Mountain dwarves and deep dwarves are more likely to go unshaven than hill dwarves and dwarves living in human cities.
    Paladin

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    Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:14 am  

    I go with the learned Sage Rasgon on this one. Cool
    or as Gimli put it " there are no dwarven females, they simply spring out of holes in the ground". Smile
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:02 am  

    No, no! When a male dwarf and a rock love each other very much, Moradin hears their secret prayer for a child and splits the rock open with his mighty hammer revealing the little baby dwarf inside.
    GreySage

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    Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:52 am  

    Great query. I keep waffling back and forth on this one. Does anyone have anything tanglible from a sourcebook that settles this score? I own Complete Guide to Dwarves and I don't remember anything in that book that conclusively says if dwarven women do, or do not, have beards...will look again. I don't recall the PH mentioning this either, or the various Monster Manual editions.

    I will abstain from this vote for now. Besides, as an elfkind myself who can barely sprout much facial hair, I shudder at the thought of a lady with a soup-strainer. Wink

    -Lanthorn
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    Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:05 am  

    Gygax said yes. That's good enough for me.
    GreySage

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    Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:02 am  

    The male and female human/demi-human comparison drawings in the 3.5e Player's Handbook show a female dwarf with no facial hair. Of course, she may have shaved it off for the portrait. Wink

    SirXaris
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    Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:40 am  

    The illustrations of the female dwarf in A1 depicted her with a beard. A big red one too. Man. Still gives me the shivers
    GreySage

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    Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:45 am  

    True that! Shocked Her name is Elwita, a pregenerated character (6th lvl fighter).

    As far as I know, this is the only picture of a bearded dwarven lady. Even the female dancing on the table featured in the Complete Book of Dwarves is clean-faced. I am assuming this is a dwarf, of course. Pardon the rhyme. Happy

    -Lanthorn
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    Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:13 pm  
    Bearded dwarven women

    Well, there is some debate, obviously, as this wouldn't be a poll if there weren't! The first specific thing I could find in writing was in the LGG:
    Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, p9 wrote:
    All dwarves are bearded. ... Dwarves also place great value on their long beards, often braiding them and twining them with jewels and gold wire. It is a terrible dishonor to be shorn. ... Females and males usually dress identically, except on certain ceremonial occasions when females wear a tabardlike overgarment, while males don their best embroidered work aprons.
    It makes no distinction about only men decorating their beards, or anything else, and only make the one exception to their garb.
    Additionally, according to the Player's Guide:
    Player's Guide to Greyhawk wrote:
    Males and females both wear beards, though some females are known to be smooth-faced.
    I presume this to mean that some are clean shaven, rather than some do not grow beards.
    There's also a reference in The Adventure Begins, under the Wizard's Guildhall:
    The Adventure Begins wrote:
    The Guildhall is served and guarded by its Porters, who are trustworthy dwarves led by Head Porter Dunar Khorshkan [LN df F7; hp 55; Str 18/01, Con 17, Wis 15; throwing axe +3, ring of protection +2].
    Dunar's father retired after being injured in an alchemical explosion, and the bearded Dunar took his place with enthusiasm and pride. Guild wizards have found Dunar to be quite strict and very no-nonsense. Many think of her as a male, but she is used to this sort of nonsense from humans.


    Those are the only specific mentions of it that I could find. So, apparently some dwarven women do shave, but, it's seen as foolishness by others.
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    Last edited by Icarus on Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:11 pm; edited 5 times in total
    GreySage

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    Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:17 pm  

    Icarus, well-researched!

    -Lanthorn, Bowing in Respect
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    Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:40 pm  

    DMPrata wrote:
    Gygax said yes. That's good enough for me.


    +1
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:44 pm  

    It depends on how you want to view it. In many forms of D&D literature it is thought that female dwarves have beards. I am of the school that says no though many dwarven women wear false beards when serving in the military or in times when when their lands are under siege. The mindset being if your enemy believes he is facing a male he is more likely to kill or capture then rape. Maybe one of the reasons no one hears of the half-orc dwarf offspring.

    This is my take on it, makes fighting dwarves seem like a male centric fighting force and prevents their soldiers from behaving differently amongst the males and females in the group.

    Later

    Argon
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    Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:05 am  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    True that! Shocked Her name is Elwita, a pregenerated character (6th lvl fighter).

    As far as I know, this is the only picture of a bearded dwarven lady. Even the female dancing on the table featured in the Complete Book of Dwarves is clean-faced. I am assuming this is a dwarf, of course. Pardon the rhyme. Happy


    Elwita! Thanks, brother!

    There is one other bearded female dwarf picture I know of. It was in the Dragon article presenting the dwarven gods. The female dwarven goddess (Can't remember the name. Don't know the dwarven pantheon that well) has a nice little braided one. Not a full-on Elwita beard, but still... **shudder**.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:11 am  

    Berronar Truesilver, I think. Her picture is on a Forgotten Realms sourcebook, but racial gods are cross-setting so this should hold even in Greyhawk.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:45 pm  

    I'm with Gary on this one. They have beards, but I do have dwarf communities near cosmopolitan areas in Greyhawk where some of the females are smooth-faced.
    GreySage

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    Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:27 pm  

    Perhaps it is a cultural, tribal, clan, or even personal, choice. It seems by various sources that dwarven females do grow beards, but some prefer to go smooth-faced. Just as with human beings, there must be variations based on region, culture, subrace, and the like. Some females prefer to shave (for whatever reason the DM prefers), while others do not.

    -Lanthorn
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    Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:14 pm  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    Icarus, well-researched!
    -Lanthorn, Bowing in Respect
    Thanks, Lanthorn. Actually, it's come up in my gaming group before, and I had to explain it to them that there are some old customs from Way Back When in the WoG-Days of Gygax, and they firmly remain.

    I've also had to explain why there's no "good" Drow deity, who sponsers Rangers and such. And why Orcs (and half-orcs) aren't thought highly of in the CoG.
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    GreySage

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    Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:40 am  

    Most welcome, Icarus. Most welcome. Credit must be given when it is due! Happy

    -Lanthorn
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    Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:31 am  
    Dwarven Beards poll

    Fascinating.
    At the beginning, the poll was running neck-and-neck. For a short time, "no beards" was actually ahead by a vote or two.
    but, now, it's two-to-one in favour of beards. I think that's a pretty clear consensus. It's not all that many votes, but, I think that a two-thirds majority of the voting block is fairly significant. (I know, I know, there's people that are going to say that 20-some votes isn't enough to be statisically accurate, but, that's not really the point, here. So all you pedantic statisticians just shoosh.) :)

    I can't help but wonder if there's some people who've read the thread then voted, or if if the voting comes first. There's plenty who've voted without commenting, so, I like to believe that it's uninfluenced voting. Hmmm ... on the other hand, maybe the fact that it's informed voting after reading the thread, and that's a good thing. Hmm.
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:10 pm  



    Last edited by BlueWitch on Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:00 pm  

    And so it is!!
    Thank you, Blue Witch!!
    Dragon Magazine issue #109, May 1986, p 28. "Worth Its Weight in Gold: A Dwarf's beard is more than hair", By, John Olson.

    Schweet! Now I've got an article to read!!
    [Edit, a short while later: Marvelous. simply Marvelous. A better read I have seldom found. It covers adornments, festival decorations, customs of wear and braiding, legends of dwarven hero's beards, tales of god's beards, even how other race's beards are viewed by dwarves.
    There's even some illustrations of bearded dwarven women, and descriptions of how their beards differ (and decorations) differ from men's. :D
    Thank you, indeed, Blue Witch! I don't know how I ever missed reading that one! I pulled it from the ol' Dragon Collection, and had a good time reading it!]
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    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:58 pm  

    Bow chika bow bow!


    That's what they look like apparently. Lingerie made of gold and gems. Yep. That seems pretty dwarvish. Laughing
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    Paladin

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    Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:31 am  

    HEY HEY How about a "Visual DISCLAIMER" I think my one good eye is scarred for un-life. Laughing
    Leave to the Big C to dig up Dwarven Pin-Up Girls Shocked
    Master Greytalker

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    Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:30 am  
    Dwarven pinup girls

    That which has been seen, cannot be unseen. Shocked

    LOL! In all seriousness, though. That's pretty decent art. Who did it, Ceb? It's interesting to think that someone would take the time to to a piece like that. I wonder what prompted it?
    Although, she must be pretty young ... despite the braiding, it looks like a fairly thin beard, by Dwarven standards ...

    Wait ... what is this? "Barely Legal, Dwarves Gone Wild"? Shocked
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    GreySage

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    Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:34 am  
    Re: Dwarven pinup girls

    Icarus wrote:
    That which has been seen, cannot be unseen. Shocked

    LOL! In all seriousness, though. That's pretty decent art. Who did it, Ceb? It's interesting to think that someone would take the time to to a piece like that. I wonder what prompted it?
    Although, she must be pretty young ... despite the braiding, it looks like a fairly thin beard, by Dwarven standards ...

    Wait ... what is this? "Barely Legal, Dwarves Gone Wild"? Shocked


    I think Icarus has been studying that picture waaaay too closely. Razz

    SirXaris
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    Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:35 pm  

    Looks like "CSLM 2005" is the signature, but I really have no idea who did the art. Funny art though. I was looking for a pic of a female dwarf adventurer or fighter, but that popped up too. Too funny not to save it for later use. Laughing

    Linky
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    Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:38 pm  

    My 2 cents: All dwarves can grow beards, inlcuding females. Female dwarves customarily shave them off to distinguish themselves from males. Males customarily have beards and for a male to have no beard is a sign that something is not 'normal'.

    For example: they attoning for something that have done that has brought dis-honour to their clan. Or they are an outcast from dwarven society, or a number of other very interesting reasons (scorned in love, oath breaker, wants to be different and contraversial etc).

    For females IMC, having a beard is very unusual but not unheard off. For example those adventuring or in the military trying to 'compete' with males often choose to let their beard grow.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:17 pm  

    Strange. I don't think I've ever seen a female Dwarf PC, and I can't evn think of an NPC in any campaign I've played in. They're always males. Of course, there is the two to one sex ratio. A few hearth warriors and priestesses of Berronar aside, I always assumed that most of the females are busy raising little dwarves.

    I voted "yes" in the sense that they can grow beards. I suspect that it would not be as "full" as a male's beard. They can also shave it off. Whether they do or not would depend on clan, profession and to some extent, personal preference. But Dwarves are creatures of custom.

    rasgon wrote:
    It depends on the dwarf woman in question, and her culture. Mountain dwarves and deep dwarves are more likely to go unshaven than hill dwarves and dwarves living in human cities.


    -I buy that assimilated (Sundered) Dwarves in any culture would see the females tend to shave.

    The difference between Mt and Deep Dwarves vs. Hill would be a variation on that, since Hill Dwarves tend to be more exposed to other socities. But I'm sure there'd be exceptions.

    Great. Something new to spend hours pondering. Laughing
    GreySage

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    Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:27 pm  

    One of my PCs, Balla, was a female dwarf. She had long muttonchops, but no beard or mustache.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:35 pm  

    The question at the top of the poll should probably have read 'Do female dwarves customarily shave their beards or not?' - since it seems most people think they have the ability to grow beards (hence having to answer yes), but the conjecture is over whether they shave or not.

    Hard to believe this thread got so much traffic, but here I am posting again.

    Challenge for the Greyhawk loremasters amongst you - find a reference to a female dwarf character (must have stats) in any GH canon? Just in case you were bored...Character in a module, opponent, important NPC, pre-gen character even?
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:57 pm  

    That has already been done on page 1 of this thread.:

    Moduel A1- Slave Pits of the Undercity; pre-gen: Elwita- Female Dwarven Fighter.

    She's the sexy redhead on the cover in scale armor swinging a warhammer at the icky bug that she didn't have to call a man to come and kill it for her (she's that kind of gal!). Laughing

    I can' think of any others off hand. For some reason, female dwarves just aren't featured as much as female elves in diaphanous or form-fitting outfits are. Go figure. Laughing
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    Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:58 am  

    I don't know man, she is depicted three times in the interior illos over the entire Slavers series. I think that's more than any of the other pre-gens. I think a certain art department had a thing for the bearded dwarven ladies. Here's a nice portrait shot by Jeff Dee from the interior of A3. Look at that full, luxuriant beard, that awesome bouffant, and those foxy curled side-locks. Mmmm. -

    GreySage

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    Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:47 am  

    There's another female dwarf (with stats, I believe) mentioned in The Adventure Begins. She's a Porter in the Guild of Wizardry, named Gunar, methinks. I don't have the sourcebook in front of me as I am on vacation and away from my treasure trove of gaming materials. Shocked But, like the wyrms of old, I, too, have the ability of Clairvoyance in a radius around my personal study... Wink

    Anyhow, somebody with access to that tome, look it up, please. I think it also mentions that she is bearded.

    thanks,

    Lanthorn
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    Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:33 pm  
    Re: Dwarven pinup girls

    Icarus wrote:
    Although, she must be pretty young ... despite the braiding, it looks like a fairly thin beard, by Dwarven standards ...

    Wait ... what is this? "Barely Legal, Dwarves Gone Wild"?


    The D&D Basic Set (the Frank Mentzer edition, my first D&D book) said "Male dwarves have long beards, and females have short beards." Because that was one of the first D&D things I've ever read, I always took that to heart. It's not clear from the text, of course, if females have short beards because they trim them shorter or if they naturally don't grow as thick and lush as male beards do.
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    Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:26 pm  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    There's another female dwarf (with stats, I believe) mentioned in The Adventure Begins. She's a Porter in the Guild of Wizardry, named Gunar, methinks. I don't have the sourcebook in front of me as I am on vacation and away from my treasure trove of gaming materials. Shocked But, like the wyrms of old, I, too, have the ability of Clairvoyance in a radius around my personal study... Wink

    Anyhow, somebody with access to that tome, look it up, please. I think it also mentions that she is bearded.

    thanks,

    Lanthorn


    "Dunar," actually:

    "The Guildhall is served and guarded by its Porters, who are trustworthy dwarves led by Head Porter Dunar Khorshkan [LN df F7; hp 55; Str 18/01, Con 17, Wis 15; throwing axe +3, ring of protection +2]. Dunar's father retired after being injured in an alchemical explosion, and the bearded Dunar took his place with enthusiasm and pride. Guild wizards have found Dunar to be quite strict and very no-nonsense. Many think of her as a male, but she is used to this sort of nonsense from humans."

    There's also a female dwarf named Bitris Ruthek at the Greysmere Covenant in Diamond Lake (see Dungeon #124), but no insight into her appearance.
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    Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:12 pm  

    I must say that I really like the graphical input in this thread. So far I've had problems imagining a bearded female dwarf. I've just thought that they are identical to males but with breasts. Now I can imagine them as much more feminine. A picture = 1000 words etc.
    GreySage

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    Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:44 am  

    Robbastard, thanks for the correction! I was just going off the top o' me head at the time.

    -Lanthorn
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    Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:35 am  

    What a fun thread! I lack access to most of my GH books but do recall a Greyhawk Adventures book featuring Ulaa hurling her hammer and sans beard. (I'm pretty sure the image was reused from a module.)

    Mortellan's recent Greyhawkery post, http://greyhawkery.blogspot.com/2012/06/half-dwarves-and-why-not.html makes me wonder whether some beardless dwur women aren't in fact half-human (or half noniz).

    Also, I like the previously made suggestions about cultural practices / preferences explaining some variations.

    What's interesting about Ulaa of course is that her race has been listed as U (unknown) on various deity listings. I dimly recall past discussions as to whether she might have been intended as a GH mother goddess for dwur and noniz in a pre-Sargent (Monster Mythology) worldview (which established Berronar Truesilver for the dwur but no noniz mother-godess, iirc) .

    PS - I didn't vote before reading the thread. I would prolly have voted beardless but am now quite convinced of the lack of significant dwur sexual dimorphism vis-a-vis beards. I'm also wondering whether "bearded ladies" in GH caravan circuses are merely dwur or racially mixed in some way ...
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