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    The Canonical Slerotin
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:35 am  
    The Canonical Slerotin

    Slerotin: How much about him is canon and how much is fan fic?

    Here's what I know for sure is canon:

    Slerotin was a Suel Mage of Power who helped Zellifar adZol and the Zolites escape the Suel Imperium prior to the Rain of Colorless Fire by magically boring a tunnel through the Southerm Crystalmists. He inadvertently sealed it before the final House emerged. (Greyhawk Box Set)

    The Suel Emperor sent Houses Schnai, Fruztii, and Cruskii after the Zolites. (The Scarlet Brotherhood)

    The Zolites had already settled the Tilvanot Penisula by the time the Scarlet Brotherhood arrived (The Scarlet Brotherhood).

    Apprentices of Slerotin founded House Maure. (Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure?)

    As far as I can tell, these are the important canonical references relating to Slerotin.

    I believe it is implied that Slerotin was not with the Zolites on the Tilvanot Peninisula when the SB arrived. Furthermore, his apprentices only made it as far as the Duchy of Urnst. Slerotin seems to be missing at the time House Maure is founded.

    What I think is fanfic:

    In order to buy the Zolites time, Slerotin confronts Houses Schnai, Fruztii, and Cruskii and, in a massive magical conflagation, the Houses are feebleminded and the Rift is formed. Slerotin vanishes. The Houses wander northeast and end up on the Thillonrian Peninsula. The barbarian's hatred of arcane magic stems from this encounter.

    Are there any other canonical references to Slerotin? Am I right in thinking that the confrontation with the Houses of Pursuit is fan-created? It seems to be largely accepted as fact.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:05 am  
    Re: The Canonical Slerotin

    Raphael wrote:
    Slerotin: How much about him is canon and how much is fan fic?

    Here's what I know for sure is canon:

    Slerotin was a Suel Mage of Power who helped Zellifar adZol and the Zolites escape the Suel Imperium prior to the Rain of Colorless Fire by magically boring a tunnel through the Southerm Crystalmists. He inadvertently sealed it before the final House emerged. (Greyhawk Box Set)

    The Suel Emperor sent Houses Schnai, Fruztii, and Cruskii after the Zolites. (The Scarlet Brotherhood)

    The Zolites had already settled the Tilvanot Penisula by the time the Scarlet Brotherhood arrived (The Scarlet Brotherhood).

    Apprentices of Slerotin founded House Maure. (Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure?)

    As far as I can tell, these are the important canonical references relating to Slerotin.

    I believe it is implied that Slerotin was not with the Zolites on the Tilvanot Peninisula when the SB arrived. Furthermore, his apprentices only made it as far as the Duchy of Urnst. Slerotin seems to be missing at the time House Maure is founded.

    What I think is fanfic:

    In order to buy the Zolites time, Slerotin confronts Houses Schnai, Fruztii, and Cruskii and, in a massive magical conflagation, the Houses are feebleminded and the Rift is formed. Slerotin vanishes. The Houses wander northeast and end up on the Thillonrian Peninsula. The barbarian's hatred of arcane magic stems from this encounter.

    Are there any other canonical references to Slerotin? Am I right in thinking that the confrontation with the Houses of Pursuit is fan-created? It seems to be largely accepted as fact.


    -You got a double thread post. I suggets we put everything here iot keep it in one place.

    Off the top of my head, I think the feeble-minding of the Houses of Pursuit comes from Leonard Lakakfka's Suel timeline, whose actual title I forget. Anything by LL would be somewhere between "Canon" and "Fanpic". Let's call it "Semi-Canonical".

    Again, off the top of my head, weren't the House of Zol baddies? Beltar worshippers? What what that say about Slerotin's alignment? Otoh, I thought the Silent One's of Keoland had their origin with Slerotin, implying LN alignment (source: one of the Living Greyhawk Journal #4, IIRC).
    GreySage

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    Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:47 am  
    Re: The Canonical Slerotin

    Raphael wrote:
    Slerotin was a Suel Mage of Power who helped Zellifar adZol and the Zolites escape the Suel Imperium prior to the Rain of Colorless Fire by magically boring a tunnel through the Southerm Crystalmists.


    No, Slerotin had nothing to do with Zellif Ad-Zol; it's not even clear if they ever met each other, though they had probably heard of one another. You must be going off the timeline in Oerth Journal #1? All of that is fanfic. It's not worthless, but later canon contradicts it in many places. Keep in mind that I don't think it's important to stick to canon, but since you asked...

    The character known as Zellifar adZol in the Oerth Journal #1 timeline is called Zellif Ad-Zol in The Scarlet Brotherhood, so that must be seen as his canonical name.

    Slerotin is first mentioned in the Glossography in the 1983 World of Greyhawk boxed set. From there, we know that Slerotin created a magical tunnel through the Crystalmists to let the Suloise tribes through. This happened after the Rain of Colorless Fire, not before ("When the Rain of Colorless Fire ended the Age of Glory and brought down the Empire, the tribes decided to seek their fate to the east, in the lands of the Flan."). The Lerara tribe were trapped in the tunnel after he closed the door.

    This story is expanded upon in "Legacies of the Suel Imperium" in Dragon #241, in which Elayne Mystica corrects the details of the "ancient Suloise folklore" quoted in the World of Greyhawk boxed set.

    Dragon #241 wrote:
    "The folklore you [Mordenkainen] quote is nearly accurate. The Suloise "tribes" who entered the Flanaess after the Rain of Colorless Fire were actually a number of once-prosperous noble families and their retainers. Being on holiday, they escaped the burning of Zinbyle, the ruined city in the Sea of Dust recently found by explorers from the Yeomanry. After the Rain died away, the survivors lived in barbarism, scavenging for food and stealing from the frocks of goat-herders in the foothills of the bordering Crystalmists. It was in such a condition a decade after the disaster that the great wizard Slerotin found them, mistaking them at first for actual savages. Slerotin heard the entreaties of the Suloise survivors, who could offer him nothing but gratitude in return for helping them cross the Crystalmists to the rich lands of the Flannae and demihumans. I believe he gave them his aid purely to sate his own ego, for he was never known for his charity before, but perhaps I wrong him. in any event, Slerotin summoned his power and opened a great tunnel directly through over 70 leagues of solid rock. in this way did the Suloise enter the FIanaess with Slerotin, meeting some of their own kind who had earlier crossed the Kendeen Pass (later destroyed by a volcano) and settled along the Javan River. The “tribes” in time became organized clans and noble Houses. They grew in strength, preyed upon Flan and olve and dwur alike, and ran afoul of the Oeridian hordes. You know what followed then. Seventeen Suloise “tribes," including the local goat-herders, braved the Passage of Slerotin to reach what is now the Yeomanry. An 18th group, the Lerara, entered late. Further delayed by a fight between several nobles, the Lerara were trapped in the passage when it was sealed..."


    That's the history according to Elayne Mystica (a mage of the Lerara people). The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer gives us a slightly different account, quoting The Chronicle of Secret Times by Uhas of Neheli:

    "Slerotin, the Last Mage of Power, led twelve tribes out of ruin and into the valley of the Sheldomar. As the story continues, the Magus, nearly consumed and at death’s door from his exertions, bids the most powerful noble houses to set aside their rivalries and unite to make a home in this
    valley and be at peace with its inhabitants. He prophesizes that they will one day combine with a noble people and together will lay the foundations of an exalted kingdom. Slerotin enjoins them to look for signs and portents, and to act upon them in the noblest tradition of their ancestors. The Last Mage of Power then quits the ken of mortals in a thunderclap that levels the surrounding trees and scatters them into the form of a glyph pointing toward the northeast, or so the tale goes."

    The main difference is that Elayne claimed there were 18 tribes ("including the local goatherds") and Uhas only counted 12.

    In any case, the tribes that Slerotin led out of the shattered Imperium became the founders of the Kingdom of Keoland. Named tribes/houses include the Rhola, the Neheli, the Malhel (who were "consumed by their own evil" in the Dreadwood), Linth (a minor Keoish house), and the Zelrad (who founded Zelradton).

    The Scarlet Brotherhood tells us that the Suel Emperor's son, Zellif, had crossed over the Kendeen Pass in 5069 SD, "accompanied by thousands of citizens loyal to him." Slerotin wouldn't open his Passage for another ten years. Zellif and his followers colonized the Tilvanot Peninsula beginning in 5971, where Kevelli Mauk and his followers (the Scarlet Brotherhood), who had escaped the Rain of Colorless Fire via an artifact called Lendor's Matrix, soon joined them. As you can see, Zellif's followers and Slerotin's followers never encountered each other.

    Quote:
    The Suel Emperor sent Houses Schnai, Fruztii, and Cruskii after the Zolites. (The Scarlet Brotherhood)


    This part is accurate, but note that the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer flatly contradicts it. It rejects the idea that Schnai, Fruztii, and Cruskii were ever noble houses. Page 54 describes the history of the Suel barbarians this way:

    Living Greyhawk Gazetteer wrote:
    The tale of the Cruski is in many ways the tale of all the Suel barbarians. Driven from their homelands by the Rain of Colorless Fire and the awakening of the Hellfurnaces, their ancestors entered the Flanaess as a people without any final destination. Over years of war with the conquering Oeridians, they were pushed to the very edge of the Flanaess, yet survived even in this forbidding landscape. As a people, they were always distinct from the high culture of the civilized Suel. They were thought of as a mere rabble, with a primitive dialect and no magic.


    The meaning of Fruztii, Cruski, and Schnai is given as Frost Clans, Ice Clans, and Snow Clans. Logically, these were names they came up with after their migration, not the names of Suel noble houses.

    On page 44 it says "The ancestors of the Suel barbarians hated the Suel nobles and aristocracy almost as much as they hated foreign races. They acknowledged no masters, and after a century of travail finally crossed the Rakers into Rhizia."

    Quote:
    Apprentices of Slerotin founded House Maure. (Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure?)


    Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure never mentions Slerotin (or, for that matter, House Maure). That bit actually comes from the 3rd edition "Maure Castle: The Adventure Begins" in Dungeon #112 (the authors are credited as Robert J. Kuntz & Gary Gygax with additional material by James Jacobs and Erik Mona).

    Dungeon#112 wrote:
    Of the Mages of Power, only Slerotin survived the conflagration. Slerotin the Wily, The One Possessed, a wizard of no equal in the ways of arcane science, no peers in sheer imagination and prowess. Slerotin died within weeks of his last great work, the magical creation of a miles-long tunnel that allowed eleven Suel tribes to flee their devastated homeland for safety in the east. A clutch of Suel warlocks, servitors, artists, intellectuals, petty nobles, and cultists split from their fellow migrants after reaching fertile ground in the shadows of the mineral-rich Abbor-Alz Mountains. Under the leadership of Slerotin's eight mighty apprentices, these misfits formed House Maure, a "family" built on the precepts of arcane exploration and immorality.


    The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer says (on page 64) that the Seers of House Neheli "were among the few powerful apprentices of Slerotin to survive the cataclysm." This was expanded upon in the history of the Silent Ones in Living Greyhawk Journal #4, which said "When the Suel tribes first emerged into the Sheldomar Valley, the major noble houses settled the land quickly and peacefully under the guidance of their seers. These were ostensibly gifted individuals who were former apprentices of the Mages of Power. These sorcerers acted as sages and wise men for the migrants and soon banded together to form a society to protect their secrets." This society became the Silent Ones.

    There's a few more notable references in canon to Slerotin in Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk. There's a statue of him in room I11 of Greyhawk Castle, apparently glaring with distaste at a statue of the Baklunish mage Han-Gra-Dan situated opposite him (Han-Gra-Dan is in turn glaring intensely at Slerotin, implying that the two mages were not friends). In the Hall of Memory, the PCs are gifted with visions from the point of view of apprentices of Slerotin before the Rain of Colorless Fire. "Your teacher - a powerful wizard named Slerotin - is lecturing you on the nature of true magic beyond that which mortals can shape into spells. This, he says, is power magic, and its direct manipulation is what allows the Suel Imperium - your home - to prosper in the face of adversity." Another lesson from Slerotin follows, and then the PCs witness a vision of Slerotin and his apprentices arguing with the Suel Emperor over whether or not it would be advisable to cast an Invoked Devastation on the Baklunish Empire. "That nation's crimes against the Suel are countless, yet Slerotin urges restraint. The emperor disagrees, desiring to invoke a devastation upon the Baklunish Empire that would wipe it from the world." The next vision reveals that after Slerotin's advice was ignored, it was his apprentices who worked the magic of the Invoked Devastation at the emperor's command. As they release the magic, they feel the magic of the Rain of Colorless Fire rising to counter them, and witness the empire burn to dust around them. Just before they burn, they hear the voice of Slerotin asking for help in opening a tunnel to the safety of the world beyond (which contradicts the idea that this happened ten years later, and also that Slerotin was the only Mage of Power to survive). The next vision describes the harrowing crossing through Slerotin's tunnel, with his apprentices trying to defend the refugees from subterranean horrors. Next there is a vision of the apprentices being confronted with the choice to head north (where presumably they become the Seers of Neheli) or east (where they would be the founders of House Maure). The next vision follows the nine (not eight, as Dungeon #112 had said) apprentices of Slerotin who founded House Maure. They refer to themselves as the last who know the secrets of Power magic; deciding that their continued presence on Oerth was a danger to the world, they elected to move on to other realms, forging the octychs as keys to their otherworldly destinations. "Only those who hold the correct octych can visit your world, and you shall await them in your realm to judge their worth." One final vision of Slerotin takes place centuries later, with the apprentices returning to the Sea of Dust. Slerotin (or perhaps his ghost) manifests and angrily demands to know why they have returned home, warning them that their return has awakened the spirit of a murdered nation, which will now march upon the world to finish what its people began long ago. "The Invoked Devastation shall come again, and this time none will survive."


    Last edited by rasgon on Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:11 pm  
    Re: The Canonical Slerotin

    Ahhh! I forgot about the Dragon article!


    rasgon wrote:
    ...The main difference is that Elayne claimed there were 18 [17?] tribes ("including the local goatherds") and Uhas only counted 12...


    -Perhaps 12 noble tribes, plus 6 [5 tribes] of locals?

    Maybe I'll have to get Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk one of these days...
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    Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:37 pm  

    Wow thanks Rasgon! That's very helpful.

    It looks like that OJ#1 really influenced my GH thinking, and the timeline has colored my thinking ever since.

    The timing of the tunnel boring is interesting. I hadn't known about the ten year delay before. The destructiveness of the Rain of Colorless Fire wasn't perhaps as total as I'd believed, if there were survivors within the Imperium. I wonder what Slerotin was doing in those ten years?

    The "correcting" canon of having the creation of the tunnel occur at the same time as the Twim Cataclyms makes more sense to me.

    So the verdict is that the Epic Disintergate Spell cast by Slerotin drove the Last Mage to an early grave? Seems a somehow ignoble death.
    GreySage

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    Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:15 pm  
    Re: The Canonical Slerotin

    jamesdglick wrote:
    -Perhaps 12 noble tribes, plus 6 [5 tribes] of locals?


    That's a good point. The "goat-herders" mentioned in Dragon #241 fit the description given to the ancestors of the Thillonrian barbarians in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer: uncivilized, unmagical rabble on the fringe of the Empire, full of hatred for the haughty, sorcerous nobles who despised them. Perhaps the five "goat-herder" tribes were the ancestors of the Cruski, Fruztii, Schnai, Zeai (sea-faring Suel barbarians in Blackmoor), and Amedi (barbarian Suel tribes in the Amedio Jungle)? The Lerara seem to have been one of the noble houses, since "a fight between several nobles" helped delay them.

    The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer implies the "Houses of Pursuit" story might have been a lie invented by the Scarlet Brotherhood to help gain the allegiance of the Ice Barbarians. At least, the Ice Barbarian king believed it to be a lie; I suppose it's up to the DM whether the story was invented by the Scarlet Brotherhood as a propaganda tool or whether it was true and the stubborn, barbarous northmen simply refused to believe it. It doesn't make much sense to me; it seems like dispatching four noble houses and their associated armies to chase down an errant heir in the middle of a desperate war against the Baklunish isn't the best idea. Rather than squandering four armies to run around the continent right when the emperor needs them the most, it'd make more sense to send a single high-level adventuring party to abduct the prince and leave his followers to their own devices. I mean, I know the emperor was probably insane and intended to unleash a doomsday spell to deal with the Baklunish once and for all, but this still seems like a really inefficient way to bring his heir back. For one thing, it's too likely that Zellif might get killed during a pitched battle between multiple armies.

    Raphael wrote:
    It looks like that OJ#1 really influenced my GH thinking, and the timeline has colored my thinking ever since.


    It's a pretty seminal work in Greyhawk fandom. A lot of things that fans have written have been based directly on it, and even Sean K. Reynolds was definitely leaning on it heavily when he wrote The Scarlet Brotherhood. Still, a lot of what professional authors have done since then contradicts it completely. The history of the Baklunish in that history is mostly contradicted by the variant history of the Baklunish written by Erik Mona in Oerth Journal #3, and that latter source forms the basis for the versions of Xan Yae and Zuoken that appear in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer and Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk. The whole story of the Oeridians being enslaved by the Suel and freed by an avatar of St. Cuthbert from Oerth Journal #1 doesn't really make sense in relation to later histories of the Oeridians that have them originating in central Oerik and migrating to Ull following the prophecies of Johydee. The "Genie Binders" that form perhaps the central and definitive part of Len Lakofka's Suel timeline seem to have been retconned by Grodog in Dragon #294 to be artifacts tied to the Princes of Elemental Evil very late in Suel history, during the time of the Baklunish-Suloise Wars. And Steve Wilson's history of Vecna in OJ #1 is all wrong, riffing off of random exaggerated legends mentioned in Vecna Lives! and unrelated legends in Ivid the Undying while ignoring the strong connections to the region that became Keoland that appear much more convincingly in Vecna Lives!

    There's still a lot of good stuff in those timelines, but it's difficult to use them with later canon without modifications.

    Quote:
    The timing of the tunnel boring is interesting. I hadn't known about the ten year delay before. The destructiveness of the Rain of Colorless Fire wasn't perhaps as total as I'd believed, if there were survivors within the Imperium.


    I think the destruction throughout most of the empire was pretty much total. The Neheli, Rhola, Malhel, Zelrad, Linth, and other tribes managed not to instantly die because they were in the foothills of the Crystalmists at the very edge of the empire, just beyond the range of the spell that turned everything to dust. And even then they struggled to survive.

    The story that 12-18 noble families and their retainers just happened to be vacationing together in the same spot when the Rain of Colorless Fire hit seems hard to credit. It had to have been more than a vacation that drew so many disparate people in the same place; probably they were avoiding an imperial purge or an imminent attack by rogue humanoids or the Baklunish, brought there by some charismatic leader. Although I'm sort of amused to think that they might have been postapocalyptic survivors of some ancient Suloise equivalent of the Sundance Film Festival, gathered to celebrate independent works of magic and art and then reduced to marauding warbands after civilization unexpectedly turns to ash.

    Quote:
    I wonder what Slerotin was doing in those ten years?


    Gathering his scattered apprentices? Battling Han-Gra-Dan on the Astral Plane? Imprisoned on an unknown demiplane? Searching for an ancient Suloise relic that would allow him to place another on the imperial throne? Traveling through parallel worlds, trying to find one in which the Suel Imperium never fell? A doomed assault against the realms of the Baklunish gods? A journey through time to learn the destiny of his race before making it back to his own era ten years too late? Recovering from his terrible wounds on the fourth layer of Elysium?

    Quote:
    The "correcting" canon of having the creation of the tunnel occur at the same time as the Twin Cataclysms makes more sense to me.


    Yeah, that's probably better, honestly. That would still place Slerotin's exodus a year or so after Zellif's.

    Quote:
    So the verdict is that the Epic Disintergate Spell cast by Slerotin drove the Last Mage to an early grave? Seems a somehow ignoble death.


    A final sacrifice to save the last remnants of his people and ensure the foundation of the Kingdom of Keoland seems noble enough to me, though the details feel like jingoistic Keoish propaganda. If you'd rather see him go on to better things, I guess it's possible that he faked his death or was cast into another dimension by one of his treacherous apprentices. He was apparently seen alive centuries later in the Sea of Dust, after all; make of that what you will.
    Paladin

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    Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:44 pm  

    @ Rasgon
    And the Grey Sage brings forth gems from the shadows... yet again....
    ALL BOW and Make Accolades to his wisdoms
    Thank Rasgon.... the ties to the old dragon and dungeon mags were most illuminating. Idea

    jamesdglick wrote:

    Perhaps the five "goat-herder" tribes were the ancestors of the Cruski, Fruztii, Schnai, Zeai (sea-faring Suel barbarians in Blackmoor), and Amedi (barbarian Suel tribes in the Amedio Jungle)?

    Hummm familiar with all you mentioned BUT the Zeai.... What's your source James? Not in the Blackmoor white book is it??
    GreySage

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    Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:06 pm  

    Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
    Hummm familiar with all you mentioned BUT the Zeai.... What's your source James? Not in the Blackmoor white book is it??


    To be clear, I said that, not James. See the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, page 34. "Cousins of the Ice Barbarians calling themselves Zeai, or Sea Barbarians, colonized the Tusking Strand and Brink Islands north of Blackmoor." They're mentioned again on page 154.
    GreySage

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    Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:10 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    To be clear, I said that, not James. See the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, page 34. "Cousins of the Ice Barbarians calling themselves Zeai, or Sea Barbarians, colonized the Tusking Strand and Brink Islands north of Blackmoor." They're mentioned again on page 154.


    And there's a little more information on them in Oerth Journal #5, which is where they originally appeared.
    GreySage

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    Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:33 pm  
    Re: The Canonical Slerotin

    rasgon wrote:
    Zellif and his followers colonized the Tilvanot Peninsula beginning in 5971, where Kevelli Mauk and his followers (the Scarlet Brotherhood), who had escaped the Rain of Colorless Fire via an artifact called Lendor's Matrix, soon joined them.


    This is supposed to read 5069, by the way (the same year Zellifar and his followers leave in the Oerth Journal #1 timeline). I hate that the forums are broken and I can't edit my posts right now. The Rain of Colorless Fire was in 5094 SD, which is when Kevelli Mauk and his followers escape. Slerotin leads the twelve-or-so tribes through his tunnel either in 5094 or in 5104, depending on which source you believe.
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    Fri Feb 01, 2013 7:30 am  
    Re: The Canonical Slerotin

    rasgon wrote:
    After the Rain died away, the survivors lived in barbarism, scavenging for food and stealing from the frocks of goat-herders in the foothills of the bordering Crystalmists. It was in such a condition a decade after the disaster that the great wizard Slerotin found them, mistaking them at first for actual savages.


    I've read this article and I totally missed that last sentence. A decade after the Rain!? I guess it really doesn't make that much difference, but for me, is an incredibly revelatory piece of information. Thanks for pointing that out! Smile
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    Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:21 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    rasgon wrote:
    To be clear, I said that, not James. See the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, page 34. "Cousins of the Ice Barbarians calling themselves Zeai, or Sea Barbarians, colonized the Tusking Strand and Brink Islands north of Blackmoor." They're mentioned again on page 154.


    And there's a little more information on them in Oerth Journal #5, which is where they originally appeared.


    -Actually, there were "vikings" living on the coast in the original Judge's Guild Blackmoor. I forget what they were called (I'll check). That's not canonical Greyhawk, but I assume that's where it came from.
    GreySage

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    Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:39 pm  

    The Skandaharians, you mean? There might be a connection.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:46 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    The Skandaharians, you mean? There might be a connection.


    -Skandaharians rings a bell. An obvious take-off on Scandanavians. I always just assumed that the Zeai were the same vikings that the original campaign used,with a name change.
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    Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:10 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    The Skandaharians, you mean? There might be a connection.


    -I checked my ragged copy of the Judge's Guild First Fantasy Campaign. They're called "Monk's Vikings" in the "Evil Forces" list on p. 3 (Monk was presumably the player), and on the map of Blackmoor on p. 29, there's an arrow and note "Skandaharian Vikings".
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    Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:01 pm  

    Quote:
    Named tribes/houses include the Rhola, the Neheli, the Malhel (who were "consumed by their own evil" in the Dreadwood), Linth (a minor Keoish house), and the Zelrad (who founded Zelradton)

    and the Lerara who were lost in Slerotin's tunnel.


    I am familiar with five of the noble houses, but what became of the Zelrad and where did they settle? Where is Zelradton?

    I have only ever read about these five houses, (not including Zelrad). This thread mentions six of the twelve or eighteen noble houses. Are there any canonical references, or non-canon references to the other six or twelve unnamed houses? What were their names, and what became of them?
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    Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:26 pm  

    Tulkas . . . the Strong? Shocked

    Does Manwe know you're "tooling around" in Oerth? And who's watching Melkor? Surprised


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    GreySage

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    Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:31 pm  

    tulkas wrote:
    I am familiar with five of the noble houses, but what became of the Zelrad and where did they settle? Where is Zelradton?


    Zelradton is in South Province, what is now (as of 587 CY) the United Kingdom of Ahlissa. The House of Zelrad were driven out of the Sheldomar Valley by the more powerful and successful houses of Rhola and Neheli, and they came eventually to the Flan kingdom of Ahlissa, where they allied themselves with the locals and founded a city. That city was conquered by the Aerdi in approximately -194 CY. There's a ten page article on Zelradton in Oerth Journal #18, which you can download here.

    Quote:
    I have only ever read about these five houses, (not including Zelrad). This thread mentions six of the twelve or eighteen noble houses. Are there any canonical references, or non-canon references to the other six or twelve unnamed houses? What were their names, and what became of them?


    I summed up all the known noble families in modern Keoland in this thread. The only other house confirmed as being among the ancient Suloise tribes is Lizhal, the house of King Kimbertos and his family. It's possible that some of the other family names, like Ravannar and Elgarin, were among them as well. Others might have been driven from the valley, as the Zelrads were. Perhaps the Maure count as one of the twelve tribes. Let me see: Derwent, Elgarin, Lerara, Linth, Lizhal, Malhel, Manz, Maure, Neheli, Ravannar, Rhola, and Zelrad might be the original noble houses, and Amedi, Fruztii, Cruski, Rasol (Hepmonalander Suel), Schnai, and Zeai might be the six "commoner tribes" that tagged along with the noble houses. Sound good? You could replace the Maure with Secunforth if you don't think the Maure should count as a house, though I think the Secunforth family are likely part of House Neheli. The Manz family might be related to the Rhola, too, but whatever.

    There are a few other possible names to work with. Suel kingdoms in Hepmonaland include Zar, Lerga, Sharba, and Sharbakal; all of those might have originally been the names of Suloise tribes or houses, though "Shar" means "pure/excellent" in Suloise, Zar means "first," and Lerga is probably named for the god Llerg. Living Greyhawk names the Suloise who founded Onnwal as the Onnwi. Norbe might have been the name of a house (Ena Norbe was the founder of Hardby). Naer is a possibility (Naer was the founder of Narwell).

    Nearly all Suloise passed through the Sheldomar valley on the way to wherever they ultimately ended up. They came in two major waves; the Firstcomers came via the Kendeen Pass (which they called the Harsh Pass), mostly during the Baklunish-Suloise War, though a few probably leaked through in the centuries before that. Slerotin and his tribes came through the Passage of Slerotin after the Rain of Colorless Fire. So some Suloise names will be Firstcomer groups (the Zolites who migrated with Zellif Ad-Zol were among these; Living Greyhawk Gazetteer says that the three houses who founded the Kingdom of Urnst migrated before the Rain of Colorless Fire, too) and some will be the tribes of Slerotin; it's mostly up to you which is which.

    Definitely came with Slerotin: Lerara, Linth, Lizhal, Malhel, Maure, Neheli, Rhola, Zelrad

    Definitely among the Firstcomers: Urnst, Zol

    Unknown status: Derwent, Elgarin, Manz, Ravannar, Secunforth, Zar, Lerga, Sharba, Sharbakal, Norbe, Naer, Onnwi, Sunndi, Amedi, Fruztii, Cruski, Rasol, Schnai, Zeai
    GreySage

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    Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:35 pm  

    The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer actually says that three "firstcomer" Suel families came together to call themselves the Maure, then named the Kingdom of Urnst after an ancient house of the Suel Imperium, but in light of the completely different origin of the Maure family in the Castle Maure adventures it was probably actually two families called themselves House Urnst and they were later joined by the Maure. It might be simpler just to say that the Suel House of Urnst settled initially in what is now the Duchy and County of Urnst, not worrying about the whole "multiple families naming themselves after a long-extinct house" complication.

    The wizard Lendore and his followers' migration to his eponymous island is definitely separate from Slerotin's exodus. The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer said they left the Imperium before the Twin Cataclysms.

    The Toli, the Suel who first settled what is now the Sea Princes, were a Firstcomer house according to Samwise's timeline.

    The Suel who first settled the Sea Barons could have been called the Asperdi. The Suel who first settled the Lordship of the Isles might have also been Asperdi, or they might have been called the Ekul, Ansabo, and Ganode.

    Sasserine was supposedly the name of a priestess of Wee Jas who founded a city in the Amedio, but you could certainly invent a House Sasserine, if you wanted. Or perhaps it was called House Teraknian, the family that ruled Sasserine until 480 CY.

    I'd be kind of tempted to include a House Cynidicea, inspired by the subterranean people in module B4 The Lost City by Tom Moldvay, as a firstcomer house who founded the Lost City in the Suss Forest. But that's very noncanon. Maybe there was a House Suss, though.

    I'd also be tempted to include a House Ulek, but I think most of us basically agreed that Ulek was probably the name of an ancient dwarven kingdom centered in the Lortmils and probably named for the goddess Ulaa.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:24 pm  

    Another possible ancient Suel house is Orlysse, from the Suel lich, Zhawar Orlysse featured in "Ex Keraptis Cum Amore" in DNG # 77. "Orlysse learned the secret of becoming a Suel lich before the Rain of Colorless Fire." There is another brief reference to him in Return to White Plume Mountain.
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    Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:28 am  

    I am really enjoying this thread!

    The founders of Suderham in the Drachensgrab Mts were Suel weren't they? What house could they have been from?

    As for the Sea Barons, wasn't Asperdi the first name of the House Atirr prince that conquered the isles for the Overking, and had the largest of them named in his honor?
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    Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:06 am  

    This thread really is an eye-opener for me about the earlier history of the Suel migrations. Rasgon, you really should distill all your knowledge on this topic into an article. I'd use it in my campaign for sure!
    GreySage

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    Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:29 am  

    So, the real question is: Is Rasgon really Rasgon, or is he . . . Delleb? Confused

    http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Delleb

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    GreySage

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    Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:15 pm  

    Shadrach wrote:
    The founders of Suderham in the Drachensgrab Mts were Suel weren't they? What house could they have been from?


    Living Greyhawk Gazetteer: "It [the Pomarj] was eventually settled by small numbers of Suel who were unwelcome elsewhere."

    I've probably been going overboard assigning every group of Suel settlers a noble house. Most were probably just commoners who fled the Baklunish-Suloise Wars and eked a life as best they could. They might have identified themselves by the part of the Suel Imperium they originated in, or by the name of their settlements in the Yeomanry and Sheldomar valley before they were driven out.

    However, it seems likely that at least some of the Pomarj settlers were refugees from House Malhel and the various Firstcomer groups driven from the land by the Rhola and Neheli.

    Quote:
    As for the Sea Barons, wasn't Asperdi the first name of the House Atirr prince that conquered the isles for the Overking, and had the largest of them named in his honor?


    Oh, that's right. Oh well! Scratch my mythical Suel House of Asperdi from the list.

    The Suloise who settled what became the Sea Barons and Lordship of the Isles might not have claimed any particular house or tribe for themselves; they might simply have been scattered groups of Suloise families who were driven by the Oeridians and other Suloise groups out of Aerdy. Some of them might have been driven out of the Tilvanot Peninsula by the descendants of the House of Zol, or from Sunndi. Some of them might have fled from Zelradton when the Aerdi conquered that city.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:16 pm  



    Last edited by BlueWitch on Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:58 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:00 am  

    BlueWitch wrote:
    Aside from groups that may have been led by lesser houses, there may very well have been groups who said "#&@* all those so called 'nobles'! If it wasn't for them we'd all still be in the villages our ancestors created!" Something on the scale of these mass migrations would be an ideal time for a group to split off and live their own way.


    The Suel cultists of the Purple Stone in Dungeon #112 seemed to have carried the Purple Stone over the Harsh Pass just prior or during the Rain of Colorless Fire (based on the tapestry in Castle Maure). This would have been a group of Suel not affiliated with any noble House (until they later received sanctaury from House Maure in Urnst).
    GreySage

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    Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:57 pm  
    Re: The Canonical Slerotin

    rasgon wrote:
    There's a few more notable references in canon to Slerotin in Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk. There's a statue of him in room I11 of Greyhawk Castle, apparently glaring with distaste at a statue of the Baklunish mage Han-Gra-Dan situated opposite him (Han-Gra-Dan is in turn glaring intensely at Slerotin, implying that the two mages were not friends).


    I just noticed that Han-Gra-Dan was originally mentioned in Quag Keep. Nice use of obscure references, Mona!
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