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    Canonfire :: View topic - City of Greyhawk Law: General
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    City of Greyhawk Law: General
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    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
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    Sat Apr 20, 2013 6:38 am  
    City of Greyhawk Law: General

    I've already asked you all your input about the use of magic to enforce Greyhawk City law and its use in investigations vs. trials (see associated thread): http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=5530

    Now a few more questions about the law itself as written up in City of Greyhawk boxed set, Folk, Feuds, and Factions.

    1) Regarding weapons licensing, I initially thought a person only needs a single license, but now wondering if a weapons licence is needed for each and every weapon that is carried. Page 13 notes that the cost of the license is based on the weapon type, so I am now under the impression that a character has to pay for EACH weapon owned in the city. Or does the character ONLY pay one license, the cost of which is determined by the MOST EXPENSIVE weapon owned?

    2) Under the fining system for various penalties leveled against crimes (see pages 12-13) it says that Glodreddi's staff (Inspector of Taxes of the Greyhawk Revenue Service) assesses the person's total wealth. I am curious if that entails more than just the value of said person's house (if applicable) and equipment (including arms and armor).

    For instance, does that include (not limited to) clothing, mounts, pets (ex: war dog or familiar), furnishings, decorations, jewelry, spell books and scrolls, components, etc. Basically, to what degree would each of you have the Inspectors (Glodreddi has a large staff of dwarves that do his bidding) assess the 'total wealth' of the character?

    No doubt they'd have complete 'legal authority' to search a person's abode or residence, with documentation to back it up...

    3) Would magic be used to do so? I can almost imagine Glodreddi using clerics (of Abbathor?!), or hired mages, to ferret out the value of items, or discover items that people may try to hide magically (esp. if they are known casters). Shocked Almost undoubtedly these assessors have great skill in determining the value of nearly any type of item (appraisal proficiency).

    4) How long would you give the charged character to 'pay up?' Is this a 'pay immediately' fine, or would you grant a certain time frame to settle up (a few days, weeks, up to a month)? I know that if people cannot pay, they are often subjected to heavy labor instead...

    I know much of this is totally a DM call, but just interested in various thoughts on the matter. Thank you again.

    -Lanthorn
    GreySage

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    Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:25 am  

    1. Determine which weapon it is you wish to carry in the city, and then pay the license fee. For instance, do you have an axe and a sword? Which do you wish to carry with you? Personally, I do not think you'd be allowed to carry both. You are only permitted the weapon for the "sudden" need for self-defense and/or for use in the apprehension of criminals, should you be present during the perpetration of a crime. I do not think the city officials are going to permit "walking arsenals" to promenade through the city streets no matter how much you paid in fees -- you'd be too hard/dangerous to try and arrest, should the need arise.

    2. Glodreddi assess your wealth . . . without any regard for mortgages. "You" are occupying the house, therefore you are worth "$300,000.00." You think that you're only worth $150,000.00 because you owe $150,000.00 in mortgage. Glodreddi doesn't consider that, he only considers that the house is worth $300,000.00 . . . so that's what you're worth. Do you follow that?

    3a. Yes, he would use magic . . . because your +3 "Axe of . . ." is worth a considerable sum and goes towards your worth. Therefore, I think Detect Magic, Appraise and other such magics are to be expected.

    3b. Think -- Farmers Insurance Company. $300,00.00 will replace the house, not the furniture. So, for insurance purposes, your house is actually worth more than $300,000.00. Like the insurance company, Glodreddi wants to know your complete "worth" and will ask after the value of your "personal property;" couches, chairs, dinning room set, etc. It's just that he wants to know for tax purposes. Evil Grin

    4. Given that the IRS wants theirs every April come Hell or High Water I'd imagine Glodreddi wants "his" taxes fairly quickly as well. I'd say he wants his taxes from Adventurers now, given that he cannot trust them not to leave the city and never come back. Once it has been firmly established that your Adventurers are "permanent residents" of the City, he may allow them more time to get caught up. But they should expect additional fees for that privilege, just like the IRS does in our "real world."
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    GreySage

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    Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:40 am  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    1. Determine which weapon it is you wish to carry in the city, and then pay the license fee. For instance, do you have an axe and a sword? Which do you wish to carry with you? Personally, I do not think you'd be allowed to carry both. You are only permitted the weapon for the "sudden" need for self-defense and/or for use in the apprehension of criminals, should you be present during the perpetration of a crime. I do not think the city officials are going to permit "walking arsenals" to promenade through the city streets no matter how much you paid in fees -- you'd be too hard/dangerous to try and arrest, should the need arise.


    Never thought of it that way. I figured you'd be allowed to carry whatever, whenever, given that it is taxed/legal. Anyone stupid enough to fight the guard of the City would soon be in a world of hurt when reinforcements arrived!

    Also, if the City charged for EACH weapon you possessed, they'd not only 1) make A LOT of money in taxes, but also 2) would have a fairly comprehensive list of what weapons that person carried. Given the meticulous, Lawful Neutral overtones of the City in all aspects of government, this makes sense to me. Just look at how painstaking they are with Guild membership, for instance, much less all the paperwork diligently written at the Gates! Shocked Talk about Bureaucratic Red Tape!!! Ridiculous... (that's the Chaotic side of me definitely coming out)

    Quote:
    2. Glodreddi assess your wealth . . . without any regard for mortgages. "You" are occupying the house, therefore you are worth "$300,000.00." You think that you're only worth $150,000.00 because you owe $150,000.00 in mortgage. Glodreddi doesn't consider that, he only considers that the house is worth $300,000.00 . . . so that's what you're worth. Do you follow that?


    Got it. I figured that Glodreddi, being the greedy SOB that he is, would 'nickel and dime' you for each and every spoon, knife and fork you owned... Of course, his Inspectors might be a little more kind, or less thorough in their appraisal of items, though they wouldn't acknowledge such a thing! But the Gods help you if it is Glodreddi HIMSELF who is doing the search and appraisal!!! Sad Cry

    Quote:
    3a. Yes, he would use magic . . . because your +3 "Axe of . . ." is worth a considerable sum and goes towards your worth. Therefore, I think Detect Magic, Appraise and other such magics are to be expected.


    Yeah, me, too. I'd think clerics of Abbathor and Dumathoin, if present and under his employ, would be likely candidates among his retinue. Barring that, I'd figured he'd enlist clerics of Zilchus to the task, and/or maybe a 'trusting' wizard from the Guild itself.

    Quote:
    3b. Think -- Farmers Insurance Company. $300,00.00 will replace the house, not the furniture. So, for insurance purposes, your house is actually worth more than $300,000.00. Like the insurance company, Glodreddi wants to know your complete "worth" and will ask after the value of your "personal property;" couches, chairs, dinning room set, etc. It's just that he wants to know for tax purposes. Evil Grin


    I already hate this guy. My player will, too. Confused

    Quote:
    4. Given that the IRS wants theirs every April come Hell or High Water I'd imagine Glodreddi wants "his" taxes fairly quickly as well. I'd say he wants his taxes from Adventurers now, given that he cannot trust them not to leave the city and never come back. Once it has been firmly established that your Adventurers are "permanent residents" of the City, he may allow them more time to get caught up. But they should expect additional fees for that privilege, just like the IRS does in our "real world."


    Good point. Some of the characters in question are citizens, and thus, not a 'risk' for fleeing. However, not true of the mercenaries...

    Thanks, Mystic.

    -Lanthorn
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    Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:03 am  
    Re: City of Greyhawk Law: General

    Lanthorn wrote:
    ...1) Regarding weapons licensing, I initially thought a person only needs a single license, but now wondering if a weapons licence is needed for each and every weapon that is carried. Page 13 notes that the cost of the license is based on the weapon type, so I am now under the impression that a character has to pay for EACH weapon owned in the city. Or does the character ONLY pay one license, the cost of which is determined by the MOST EXPENSIVE weapon owned...


    -For a modern analogy, a Federal Firearms License allows you to to buy, sell, trade, and make weapons which are normally off limts (e.g, automatics, explosives, etc). But you still have to pay a tax on each weapon. I don't have a really firm opinion whether it would work that way, or M-S's.

    Lanthorn wrote:
    ...[2) Under the fining system for various penalties leveled against crimes (see pages 12-13) it says that Glodreddi's staff (Inspector of Taxes of the Greyhawk Revenue Service) assesses the person's total wealth. I am curious if that entails more than just the value of said person's house (if applicable) and equipment (including arms and armor)...


    -Without a moment's hestitation, DEFINITELY.

    Lanthorn wrote:
    ...For instance, does that include (not limited to) clothing, mounts, pets (ex: war dog or familiar), furnishings, decorations, jewelry, spell books and scrolls, components, etc. Basically, to what degree would each of you have the Inspectors (Glodreddi has a large staff of dwarves that do his bidding) assess the 'total wealth' of the character?

    No doubt they'd have complete 'legal authority' to search a person's abode or residence, with documentation to back it up...


    -Horses are a relatively easy-to-spot no brainer.

    I was a little surprised to discover that tax assessors in medieval England did account for furniture, at least for those who lived in urban areas. If a bunch of guys in the RL Middle Ages could do it, Greyhawk certainly can.

    The biggest thing for taxes would be land, if they have any.

    Lanthorn wrote:
    ...[3) Would magic be used to do so? I can almost imagine Glodreddi using clerics (of Abbathor?!), or hired mages, to ferret out the value of items, or discover items that people may try to hide magically (esp. if they are known casters). Shocked Almost undoubtedly these assessors have great skill in determining the value of nearly any type of item (appraisal proficiency)...


    -Of course, but using clerics of Abbathor would run up against that Greyhawk law forbiding the open worship of evil dieties (I forget the name of the law, but I know it's there. I think it was the fall out after one of the early Lord Mayors of Selintan got assassinated).

    Lanthorn wrote:
    ...[4) How long would you give the charged character to 'pay up?' Is this a 'pay immediately' fine, or would you grant a certain time frame to settle up (a few days, weeks, up to a month)? I know that if people cannot pay, they are often subjected to heavy labor instead...


    -M-S's point about the reliability of the taxpayer is good. I suspect that could vary, though: A cleric or paladin of Heironeous could probably get a break. Of course, it could be paid for in services, rather than cash.

    Adventure hook! Wink Evil Grin
    GreySage

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    Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:37 am  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    2) would have a fairly comprehensive list of what weapons that person carried.


    That one slipped by you, did it? Confused

    You must "report" all of your weapons to the Guards -- at the City gates -- before you enter the City. "They" know what weapons you have. Wink

    The only question is: Which weapons will you be allowed to carry -- via the license -- and which ones have to stay in your room at the "Green Dragon Inn." Shocked

    Glodreddi collects taxes, not fees, so he doesn't determine how many weapons you get licensed for. Glodreddi might like to allow you to carry every weapon you possibly can for the fees -- greedy bastard -- but he doesn't make that decision. Evil Grin

    The law was passed by the ruling Oligarchy and enforced by the Constable of Greyhawk, so Glodreddi's well known greed doesn't enter into the equation. Sad Evil Grin

    Laughing Laughing Laughing
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    GreySage

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    Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:01 am  
    Re: City of Greyhawk Law: General

    jamesdglick wrote:

    -Of course, but using clerics of Abbathor would run up against that Greyhawk law forbiding the open worship of evil dieties (I forget the name of the law, but I know it's there. I think it was the fall out after one of the early Lord Mayors of Selintan got assassinated).


    To me, the only Evil Powers that are banned by the law are those like Nurell, Iuz, Incabulos, Tharizdun, and possibly Hextor and Erythnul. Kurell is Evil, technically, but not banned (in my mind) given his thiefly slant and the fact that one of the ranking thieves of the Guild is a priestess/thief of said Power. I don't think Abbathor would be banned outright, though his followers and priests no doubt keep a VERY low profile. And I am sure there a VERY few in the city given the small number of dwarves present (at least compared to the humans).

    -Lanthorn
    GreySage

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    Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:06 am  

    Anyone have a general idea as to the cost for a house? Wink

    There are prices for lodgings (inns) and also conveyances, but none that I can see that give a basic idea for a house...

    Yes, I realize it depends on lot size, construction materials, LOCATION, and the layout and size of the actual edifice. What I need is a general range for a house that would be located in the Free City. Feel free to break it down to small, medium, and large size (relatively speaking) as well as location in the City (Artisan's Quarter, Clerkberg, Foreign Quarter, etc). Right now all I have to use as a basis for reference are prices of wagons, boats, and inn lodgings! Confused

    thanks again,

    Lanthorn
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:13 am  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    Anyone have a general idea as to the cost for a house?


    -If you still have it, the AD&D1 DMG has a breakdown of how much a building costs, down to the doors and windows. It's somewhere in the middle, in the part on siege warfarfe. D&D 3.0 had an entire supplement book on it.

    I want to say that a 2-story wood construction (20' x 30' ?) was 500gp, and stone 1,500 gp...
    GreySage

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    Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:01 pm  

    jamesdglick wrote:
    If you still have it, the AD&D1 DMG has a breakdown of how much a building costs, down to the doors and windows.


    Yeah, I'm looking through that now, but it mostly pertains to the construction of castles and such; even how much to pay Miners to quarry stone (dependent upon the Race of the Miners) etc.

    It contains a bunch of information that I wouldn't be interested in role playing. I don't imagine your players would be either.

    As to the 3.0 Supplement . . . I still looking for it.
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:18 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    ...Yeah, I'm looking through that now, but it mostly pertains to the construction of castles and such; even how much to pay Miners to quarry stone (dependent upon the Race of the Miners) etc...

    -I'm pretty certain that the DMG had stuff like the price of doors and windows...
    GreySage

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    Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:28 pm  

    jamesdglick wrote:
    I'm pretty certain that the DMG had stuff like the price of doors and windows...


    I haven't found any of that information yet, but . . .

    3rd Edition's Stronghold Builder's Guidebook, Table 2-1: "Stronghold Components," page 15.

    These are some samples that could be applied to a "nice" home in the City of Greyahwk.

    The Basic bedroom for a Stronghold is 800 gp. A Fancy bedroom is 5000 gp and a Luxury Suite is 25,000 gp, but it does include a valet.

    Your Basic "common area" is 500 gp, but a Fancy "common area" cost 3000 gp.

    For the Wizard's home, your Basic Alchemical Laboratory cost 700 gp, a Fancy one cost 3000 gp. A Basic Magical Laboratory cost 500 gp, a Fancy Magical Laboratory cost 3000 gp and comes with 1 Apprentice.

    Your Basic Library cost 500 gp, a Fancy Library cost 3000 gp and a Luxury Library cost 15,000 gp and comes with 1 Librarian.

    Your Basic Courtyard cost 500 gp, Fancy Courtyard 3000 gp and a Luxury Courtyard cost 15,000 gp.

    Your Basic Kitchen cost 2000 gp, a Fancy Kitchen cost 12,000 gp and comes with 2 Cooks, a Luxury Kitchen cost 50,000 gp and comes with 6 Cooks.

    A Basic Dinning Hall cost 2000 gp, a Fancy Dinning Hall is 12,000 gp and comes with 1 servant, while a Luxury Dinning Hall cost 50,000 gp and comes with 2 servants.

    Servants Quarters cost 400 gp.

    Basic storage area cost 500 gp, a Fancy one cost 1000 gp and Luxury 3000 gp and comes with 1 Clerk.

    The best I can do, so far. I'll look a little more.
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:33 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    jamesdglick wrote:
    I'm pretty certain that the DMG had stuff like the price of doors and windows...


    I haven't found any of that information yet, but . . .

    3rd Edition's Stronghold Builder's Guidebook, Table 2-1: "Stronghold Components," page 15.

    These are some samples that could be applied to a "nice" home in the City of Greyahwk.

    The Basic bedroom for a Stronghold is 800 gp. A Fancy bedroom is 5000 gp and a Luxury Suite is 25,000 gp, but it does include a valet.

    Your Basic "common area" is 500 gp, but a Fancy "common area" cost 3000 gp.

    For the Wizard's home, your Basic Alchemical Laboratory cost 700 gp, a Fancy one cost 3000 gp. A Basic Magical Laboratory cost 500 gp, a Fancy Magical Laboratory cost 3000 gp and comes with 1 Apprentice.

    Your Basic Library cost 500 gp, a Fancy Library cost 3000 gp and a Luxury Library cost 15,000 gp and comes with 1 Librarian.

    Your Basic Courtyard cost 500 gp, Fancy Courtyard 3000 gp and a Luxury Courtyard cost 15,000 gp.

    Your Basic Kitchen cost 2000 gp, a Fancy Kitchen cost 12,000 gp and comes with 2 Cooks, a Luxury Kitchen cost 50,000 gp and comes with 6 Cooks.

    A Basic Dinning Hall cost 2000 gp, a Fancy Dinning Hall is 12,000 gp and comes with 1 servant, while a Luxury Dinning Hall cost 50,000 gp and comes with 2 servants.

    Servants Quarters cost 400 gp.

    Basic storage area cost 500 gp, a Fancy one cost 1000 gp and Luxury 3000 gp and comes with 1 Clerk.

    The best I can do, so far. I'll look a little more.


    -The D&D 3.0 thing was the other thing I was thinking of. I noticed that the prices are a little different from AD&D1, but Lanthorn will probaly have to modify them anyway.

    I probably won't be posting until Tuesday, FWIW.
    GreySage

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    Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:57 pm  

    More info:

    3rd Edition's Stronghold Builder's Guidebook, pages 16 - 34.

    Your basic Bathroom cost 400 gp, a fancy Bathroom cost 2000 gp and a Luxury Bathroom cost 10,000 gp and comes with 1 servant and 1 valet.

    Oh, the basic Kitchen does come with 1 Cook. Sorry! Embarassed

    Your basic Labyrinth cost 500 gp, could substitute "basement" here.

    Your basic Smithy cost 500 gp, a fancy Smithy is 2000 gp.

    Your basic Stables cost 1000 gp and comes with 1 Groom, a fancy Stables cost 3000 gp and comes with 1 Groom, a Luxury Stables cost 9000 gp and comes with 2 Grooms.

    Your basic Study/Office cost 500 gp, a fancy Study/Office cost 2,500 gp and a Luxury Study/Office cost 15,000 gp and comes with 1 Clerk.

    I trust you're not going to have a "basic" Throne Room, Trophy Hall or Torture Chamber? Laughing

    The ultimate in Wizard's Research area cost 16,900 gp and comes with an Alchemist, an Apprentice and will cost 60 gp a month to maintain.
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    GreySage

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    Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:12 pm  

    WOW, impressive information.

    Are these costs for an EMPTY room? Or do these (high!) costs come with furnishings? I'd think so, given the price tag...

    Excellent research and information, fellas. Thanks for your diligence!

    -Lanthorn
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    Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:15 pm  

    Sounds as though these prices are "fully furnished." These should give you some idea of what a "nice" home in Greyhawk should cost.
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    GreySage

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    Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:11 am  

    Does this wondrous tome give basic dimensions for those aforementioned costs?

    I would imagine that most 'medieval style' urban-based homes have but a single common room, a small kitchen, and perhaps another room or two (living quarters). I imagine a personal latrine was almost unheard of (wasn't refuse dumped outside?)!

    -Lanthorn
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    Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:41 am  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    Does this wondrous tome give basic dimensions for those aforementioned costs?


    Hmm. Would floor plans with 5' squares be of any help? Confused Evil Grin


    Mwahahahahahahahahahahaha!


    Lanthorn wrote:
    I would imagine that most 'medieval style' urban-based homes have but a single common room, a small kitchen, and perhaps another room or two (living quarters).


    Not hardly; Any map -- or picture -- you view will show you that there are very few -- if any -- single story homes in the City of Greyhawk. Most are multiple story dwellings, housing several families. Although that could very well be what the individual accommodations might consist of. Apartments? Confused

    Apartment buildings existed in ancient Rome. Wink
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    GreySage

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    Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:39 pm  

    Curious...never thought of that, except for the boarding houses mentioned for students of the various universities and institutions of learning.

    Back to the initial question...What would a standard house include in terms of rooms?

    -Lanthorn
    GreySage

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    Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:49 pm  

    Here's something else I've been pondering.

    Given that the followers of Trithereon and Pholtus constantly fight in the streets of Greyhawk City (as cited in several different sources), and this is a crime (minor if no severe injuries occur), just how do the courts handle such a violation? I would imagine it would not be tolerated given the Lawful nature of the City. In addition, how do the various Temples/Churches manage to keep paying the fines (or, at least, their charged clerics) without being drained completely of funds? After a while, it would become very costly! And I doubt the followers of Trithereon would comply with the guards, much less the investigation of any 'crime.' No doubt they rail against such fines and laws as antithetical to their own religious doctrine. And no doubt the Oligarchs and judges of Greyhawk City grow tired of the constant warring between these two faiths, although it would generate some 'extra revenue.'

    Curious,

    Lanthorn
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    Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:36 pm  

    Like I said before:

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Lanthorn wrote:
    I would imagine that most 'medieval style' urban-based homes have but a single common room, a small kitchen, and perhaps another room or two (living quarters).


    . . . Although that could very well be what the individual accommodations might consist of . . .


    Think "The Honeymooners" here. Remember? A Living Room/Kitchen with a separate bedroom and -- presumably -- a small bath.

    I think the individual "apartments" in the buildings of Greyhawk would be laid-out somewhat similar to that, small by today's standards, but livable. A good number of Greyhawk's population will consist of Poor and Low Income people, crowded into the Slum & Thieves Quarters. These "apartments" would probably have a "common" kitchen area, with the alleys serving as their "restroom."

    Bare in mind that, even in The Three Musketeers people used night-pans and threw their soil into the streets come morning. Greyhawk would be much the same -- at least in these areas.

    The majority of the people will be what we consider Middle Income and live in the type of apartments we're talking about and probably have their own kitchen area, with an "extra" room -- perhaps a bedroom for the children of the family? I think these sections of town would come with "public facilities," just as Rome did. "Bath Time for the Hopping Prophet" anyone? (City of Greyhawk Boxed Set, Gem of the Flanaess, Card Stock {"page" 198 if viewing the PDF})

    My thinking is following along those lines. Yours? Confused
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    GreySage

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    Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:52 pm  

    Sounds completely reasonable. When I visited Bulgaria a number of years ago, I bore witness to large apartment-style living quarters for the general populace, like huge tenements, from the previous Soviet era timeframe. It was an eye opening experience...yes, people, those of us in the US are quite 'spoiled' with our homes and yards. At least, those of us who can afford such a luxury.

    However, I also thought that some folks would also own their own houses, especially those with enough money...same for those of us today, though perhaps, like folks living in downtown Manhattan, not many as compared to people living out in the 'boonies.' Wink

    Ok, Mystic (and others), what about my previous question (listed above), with respect to the warring faiths???

    -Lanthorn
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    Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:37 pm  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    When I visited Bulgaria . . . I bore witness to large apartment-style living quarters for the general populace, like huge tenements, from the previous Soviet era time-frame.


    There's your Slum & Thieves Quarters of the city. Wink

    Lanthorn wrote:
    I also thought that some folks would also own their own houses, especially those with enough money . . . like folks living in downtown Manhattan . . .


    There are! We call those the High & Garden Quarters of the city -- and can include The Clerksburg in that assessment too -- where the Upper Class live. The Clerksburg you ask? Of course! Where do you think all the "College kids" and "Professors" live? Even most Americans can't afford to send their kids to College, where does that leave everyone else? The Clerksburg is filled with Upper Class and Upper-Middle Class kids -- Gord not withstanding. Wink

    The Middle Class would be found in the River, Foreign and Artisans Quarters of the city -- with a few of the Upper Class living there as well. (Otiluke's house is found on the street Summoner Court, near the Marsh Gate, in the Foreign Quarter. Otiluke: Member of The Cirlce of 8 and of the ruling Oligarchy of Greyhawk).

    Lanthorn wrote:
    Ok, Mystic (and others), what about my previous question (listed above), with respect to the warring faiths?


    Sorry! I'm reading and writing and cooking dinner all at the same time. I'll get to it! Wink
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    GreySage

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    Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:39 pm  

    You are a man of many talents. Wink

    Thanks for the comparisons and clarifications. Makes total sense, what you say. (Pardon the obvious Yodaspeak).

    awaiting your next post, after your other chores of course!

    Laughing

    -Lanthorn
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    Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:03 pm  

    I'll take a moment to expand on this:

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    The Middle Class would be found in the River, Foreign and Artisans Quarters of the city . . .


    Those of the Upper Middle Class from Greyhawk's "native" citizens would no doubt be found in the Artisan's Quarter among the more successful merchants. No doubt several of the "nice" single dwelling houses would be found there.

    You will find some Upper Class and Upper Middle Class homes in the Foreign Quarter in the form of foreign diplomats and foreign merchants. Among them you will find the home of Sir Lemajen Sterrich -- located on Horseshoe Road near the junction with The Processional -- and the home of Duke Garand -- over on Roanwood Road. No doubt these two homes will also be among the "nicer" in the city. (I already gave Otiluke's home as an example -- who, by the way, was also President of the Society of Magi.)

    Just remembered, The Adventure Begins places 80% of the City of Greyhawk's population in the "lower Class," to wit: the Poor.

    Just some examples . . . I'm not going to do all the work for you! Evil Grin Laughing
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    GreySage

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    Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:00 am  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    Given that the followers of Trithereon and Pholtus constantly fight in the streets of Greyhawk . . . just how do the courts handle such a violation? . . . how do the various Temples/Churches manage to keep paying the fines . . . without being drained completely of funds? . . . And I doubt the followers of Trithereon would comply with the guards, much less the investigation of any 'crime.'


    It is true that the followers of Pholtus and Trithereon are not signatures of the Pact of Edoira and that Trithereon's clerics will fight with just about everyone, though their bouts with the faithful of Pholtus are notorious. This is especially true of the Sacred Sons and Daughters sect of Trithereon.

    The Adventure Begins, page 109, says this: ". . . a small, but very troublesome sect of Trithereon the Summoner (the Sacred Sons and Daughters, no doubt) . . . This good, but anti-authority religion teaches that . . . military and law enforcement officers . . . are to be resisted and disrupted at all times . . . and causes trouble beyond the proportion of its numbers. This religion is in constant trouble with the Directing Oligarchy and Lord Mayor, not to mention the Constable, and it is teetering on the brink of being officially banned for a period if its activities are not restrained."

    In addition to the Sacred Sons and Daughters causing problems, the current leader of the local church -- Janziduur Euroz-slayer -- does her part to keep the Trithereon's in trouble. Also, considering the above information, I think it is safe to say that the Church of Trithereon is instigating all of the trouble.

    As for other types of "punishment," most fights between the two groups would undoubtedly fall under the Minor Crimes category and could include the following charges: Assault/minor, Blasphemy against a Priest, Disturbance of the Peace, Disorderly Conduct, Slander, Violation of Privacy and possibly Use of Magic in Public Place without due Cause.

    But we cannot forget this snip-it: "Battles with the clergy of Pholtus have been especially violent, leading to serious injuries in the past." (The Adventure Begins, page 109)

    These could easily fall under the Major Crimes category (Assault/grievous, Incitement to Riot, Rioting and affray, Sedition and/or Vandalism) and could lead -- or have led -- to punishments such as: Death, Mutilation, Permanent Exile or Banishment, Hard Labor (1d4 years to Life) and/or Fines of 25% to 80% of the victim's true worth -- that's where Glodreddi comes into play. Wink

    How is it handled? An official Canon source says that the worshipers of Trithereon are about to be banned from the city. In addition to causing trouble of her own, I seriously doubt that Janziduur is paying the fines incurred and is probably rousing up even more trouble on behalf of any Trithereon cleric that has been imprisoned (Hard Labor in the City's Workhouse) for any of these offenses. And I'm equally sure that -- as the instigators -- it is the Church of Trithereon that is the one facing all the fines, not the Pholtans. Wink

    Given all of this, I'd say that, should your PCs run into the Sacred Sons and Daughters and find themselves in a fight, the judge is going to view it as self-defense. Evil Grin

    Is that what you were looking for? Confused
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    Last edited by Mystic-Scholar on Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
    GreySage

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    Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:48 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:

    Is that what you were looking for? Confused


    YES! Happy

    But I cannot imagine that Glodreddi, much less the ruling Oligarchs, would not enforce Janziduur and the faithful of Trithereon from paying their criminal fines...

    -Lanthorn
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    Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:36 pm  

    (Mystic Scholar scratches his head in confusion)

    What part of: "Glodreddi has nothing to do with the collection of fines" did you not understand? Glodreddi cannot "enforce" the collection of fines. Glodreddi's only involvement is; the fine is determined by how much the victim is worth. Glodreddi determines how much the victim is worth. Neither he, nor his people, actually collect the fines. The Constable of Greyhawk -- Deider Fanshen -- collects the fines.

    (FYI: Punishments and fines can be found on pages 66 & 67 of The Adventure Begins.)

    Lanthorn wrote:
    But I cannot imagine . . . the ruling Oligarchs, would not enforce Janziduur and the faithful of Trithereon from paying their criminal fines . . .


    I'll repeat: What part of: "This religion is in constant trouble with . . . the Constable, and it is teetering on the brink of being officially banned for a period if its activities are not restrained" did you not understand? Razz

    Perhaps the fight with your PCs is the last straw and Deider locks them all up! The religion is banned, the church doors closed and pad locked! Shocked

    Who's to say it doesn't happen in your game? Confused Evil Grin

    Your PCs are now the "dedicated foes" of the Church of Trithereon! Hunted by his Clerics for years to come! Shocked

    The ground work is all laid out in The Adventure Begins. The Constable is about as tired of the Trithereons as she can be. The camel is fully loaded and only needs the proverbial "straw." The fuse simply needs a "Lanthorn" to lite it! Shocked Evil Grin

    Now . . . go and enjoy yourself! Happy Cool Wink


    Mwahahahahahahahahaha!

    Oh! It hasn't happened yet because The Adventure Begins says it hasn't happened yet. rolleyes Laughing Laughing Laughing
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:11 am  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:

    ...What part of: "Glodreddi has nothing to do with the collection of fines" did you not understand? Glodreddi cannot "enforce" the collection of fines. Glodreddi's only involvement is; the fine is determined by how much the victim is worth. Glodreddi determines how much the victim is worth. Neither he, nor his people, actually collect the fines. The Constable of Greyhawk -- Deider Fanshen -- collects the fines...


    -Or: Gloreddi's boys are an investigative agency, the constabulary is an enforcement agency.
    GreySage

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    Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:16 pm  

    jamesdglick wrote:
    -Or: Gloreddi's boys are an investigative agency, the constabulary is an enforcement agency.


    Yes . . . and no. This shouldn't be "that" hard. Confused

    Glodreddi DOES collect TAXES . . . by force if necessary. What does that have to do with FINES?

    Yesterday YOU ran a stop sign, the judge FINED you $50. Just what in the Nine Hells does the I.R.S. have to do with that? Not a damn thing!

    Glodreddi is Greyhawk's I.R.S. -- period. He does not "out rank" Deider Fanshen. He cannot tell her; "Go collect those fines!" Glodreddi is not a "Judge" . . . he cannot "fine" anyone.

    This also includes FEES. YOU have to pay a FEE -- in the Real World -- to obtain a "Concealed Weapon" permit -- a.k.a License. What in the Nine Hells has that got to do with the I.R.S.? Not a damn thing! Glodreddi has nothing to do with collecting FEES for carrying weapons in the City of Greyhawk. Glodreddi is the I.R.S., nothing more.

    Fees for carrying weapons and fines for violating the law fall under the jurisdiction of one Deider Fanshen, the Constable of Greyhawk and member of the Directing Oligarchy.

    Taxes fall under the jurisdiction of the Greyhawk Revenue Service, under the "command" of the Inspector of Taxes, one Glodreddi Bakkanin, also a member of the Directing Oligarchy.

    Glodreddi Bakkanin collects all taxes for the Domain of Greyhawk, by force if necessary.

    Deider Fanshen collects all fines and fees for the Domain of Greyhawk, by force if necessary.

    The People's Constables are also empowered to collect fines for minor offenses. The creation of this organization was suggested by none other than Glodreddi Bakkanin! Shocked (The Adventure Begins, pages 65 & 66)

    Who the hell cares? The People's Constables STILL answer to Deider Fanshen, Constable of Greyhawk. They do not answer to the Inspector of Taxes, Glodreddi Bakkanin.
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    Last edited by Mystic-Scholar on Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:22 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    jamesdglick wrote:
    -Or: Gloreddi's boys are an investigative agency, the constabulary is an enforcement agency.
    .


    ...in this case, OK? Confused
    GreySage

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    Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:44 pm  

    jamesdglick wrote:
    ...in this case, OK? Confused


    If you're asking what I think you're asking . . .

    Fines are dependent upon "the victim's true worth." The fines run between 25% and 95%. (The Adventure Begins, page 66)

    It is the Inspector of Taxes of the Greyhawk Revenue Service -- a dwarf named Glodreddi Bakkanin -- that determines what a person's "true worth" is. Wink

    So he does play his part and would "investigate" the victim's "true worth" so that the proper fine could be assessed by the Judge. Happy

    Feel better? Laughing Laughing Laughing

    I simply wanted to dispel the "Why doesn't Glodreddi collect those fines?" thoughts. Glodreddi doesn't actually collect the fines, Fanshen does. Cool


    (Actually, a "taste" of how this works plays out in my Infamous Key story, starting in Chapter 9)
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    GreySage

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    Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:22 pm  

    OK, so I get that the Constable is in charge of collecting fees that are dictated by the courts.

    I am still really curious how the Temple of Trithereon (much less Pholtus, if they so chose) can 'opt out' of paying their penalties. It seems fairly cut and dry, unless Derider and the Oligarchs don't want to use force against the offending Temple. But I have a feeling FEW people would object, given that the followers of Trithereon are not really popular wityh such folks (thieves themselves who like the established pecking order). Surely Derider would have more than enough assistance from the city guard as well as the faiths of St Cuthbert, Zilchus, Pholtus, and Heironeous, as well as help from the Mages' Guild, to MORE than crush any resistance!

    "We will crush the Rebellion with one swift stroke!" Evil Grin

    In short, it would be a total losing proposition for the Followers of the Summoner...

    -Lanthorn
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    Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:24 pm  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    In short, it would be a total losing proposition for the Followers of the Summoner . . .


    And so it would be. Wink

    Lanthorn wrote:
    I am still really curious how the Temple of Trithereon . . . can 'opt out' of paying their penalties . . .


    Who says that they can "opt out?" Who says they aren't paying their fines? And if they aren't, who says they're not about to "suffer the consequences?" Confused

    I merely told you my take on Janziduur Euroz-slayer. Let me be clear, I don't think she would pay such fines -- given the descriptions of her and the situation in The Adventure Begins.

    However, The Adventure Begins merely outlined the situation for you, "set the stage," if you will -- just like any module. And just like any module, it is for you -- the DM -- to decide how it's played out. Wink Evil Grin

    So, keep us posted. You know the proper forum to post in! Evil Grin Laughing
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    GreySage

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    Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:43 pm  

    Lanthorn:

    I would like to add that being Chaotically aligned doesn't mean that one is totally against all forms of organization and authority. (I don't recall anything about Janzidur's personality, so I can't speak to that NPC's situation directly.)

    Note that elves and centaurs are chaotic good, but they certainly pay homage to the respective leaders of their communities. When speaking of chaotic alignments, I think we need to realize that being of a chaotic mind-set means something very different to a human or demi-human than it does to a demon. Demons, for example, are true chaos. They obey no authority except that which they are physically forced to obey - and they still have no respect for it. Evil Grin A human or demi-human of chaotic bent is usually just a free spirit who doesn't want to be saddled with the trappings of a highly regulated life. Such a person would still respect just authority, as long as it remained just and didn't pry too closely into their personal affairs. A demon, on the other hand, wouldn't respect any type of authority or regulation for any reason.

    So, the church of Tritherion, being chaotically aligned, is representative of free will, free spirits, etc. They do respect the community and its well-being, they just focus on the individuals within that community. Thus, I think they would have no problem paying taxes to a legal authority as long as they respected that authority for remaining as hands-off as possible.

    SirXaris
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    GreySage

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    Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:04 am  

    SirXaris wrote:
    I don't recall anything about Janzidur's personality, so I can't speak to that NPC's situation directly.


    The Adventure Begins, page 109 -- in the PDF format.
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    GreySage

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    Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:34 pm  

    Oh, I think it is completely plausible that "Jan" and her coterie of 'freedom fighters' see these punishments as more totalitarian regime methods to bilk 'Good' folk from doing the 'right thing' while help oppress them under their Iron Heel of rule and law. I wouldn't be surprised if she has done her best to manipulate/use the letter of the law to her advantage to stymie the wheels of justice with various appeals and the like. Or maybe she just flat out refuses to pay the fines, forcing a potential conflict, citing religious oppression ("We are doing Trithereon's Work!")...though perhaps unlikely.

    The other possibility is that few of these fights result in actual prosecution due to late guard arrival on scene, or the offending clerics (either sides?) use magic (Etherealness?) to evade capture and the like. Or maybe the judges and guards just don't want to prosecute b/c it's too much hassle between the faiths of Pholtus on one end and the those of Trithereon on the other.

    -Lanthorn
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