Sorry Lanthorn - work has taken over my life at the moment so I've not had much time for my rambings on CF!
Here are a couple more. Although after some of the previous comments I'm planning on having a revision of my work so far using Skills & Powers - I just haven't had the time yet!
Cyndor (Lesser)
Time, Infinity & Continuity
AB Wis 15, Int 11;
AL LN;
WP any bludgeoning;
AR any;
RA grey robes;
SP All, Astral, Combat*, Divination, Guardian*, Healing*, Law*, Numbers, Time;
SPL none;
PW 1) +2 to saving throws versus spells that affect or inhibit movement or time; 5) haste or slow (W3) 1/day; 7) magic mirror (W4, any mirror of the correct dimensions can be used) 1/week; 9) ages at 50% normal rate; 13) reincarnation (W6) 1/month;
TU nil.
Dalt (Lesser)
Portals, Doors, Locks & Keys
AB Dex 13, Wis 14;
AL CG, CN;
WP club, dagger, dart, knife, short bow, sling, short sword, staff;
AR leather or elven chain;
RA black jerkin and fine black gloves;
SP All, Astral, Divination*, Guardian, Healing*, Necromantic, Protection*, Summoning, Wards*;
SPL May use any priest spell that involves closing, opening or portals even if from another sphere.
PW 1) hold portal (W1) 1/day, may pick locks as a thief of the same level; 3) knock or wizard lock (W2) 1/day, 5) rope trick 1/day, 7) dimension door (W4) 1/day; 10) Leomund's secret chest (W5) 1/day; 13) passwall (W5) 1/day;
TU turn (-4 levels).
My take on Dalt is a little non-canon. I find him a fascinating deity but just lacking a little something as written. I like the hints in the Maure Castle stuff of portals leading to other worlds and a mystical element. In my version of things Dalt was the previous Suel god of the dead - the Gatekeeper to the Afterlife and as much connected with metaphysical, mysticla & symbolic portals. I made his lover Ranet - who guided the spiits of the dead to Dalt's gate with the fire of her torch. After Ramet's demise Dalt forsook his sibling gods and travelled to distant dimensions and realms in his search for a way to return Ranet to him - his travels leading him back to Oerth and the need to help free Vatun who he believes could hold the answer to his own mission regarding Ranet. After Dalt's departure Wee Jas assumed his portfolio of the Afterlife - so far Dalt has not challenged her but since his return he hasn't turned away any worshippers who appeal to that role of yore of his. Whether there will be conflict between him and Wee Jas remains to be seen.
So - I've added a little Necromancy and Turn Undead to his abilities to represent that connection.
Wolfling, I completely understand. Nonetheless, glad you decided to indulge me and continue.
Here is what I came up with for Cyndor:
Cyndor
(Keeper of Infinity, the Illimitable One)
LN Lesser God of Time, Infinity, and Continuity
SYMBOL: Rounded hourglass on its side
WOR. ALIGN: LN
Requirements: Int and Wis 13; AL LN; WP any blunt (sling 1st); AR chain or less; SP All, Astral, Divination, Guardian, Healing*, Law, Numbers, Protection*, Thought*, Time
As for Dalt, he was written up in The Scarlet Brotherhood on page 82 with the following for his clerics:
WOR ALIGN: CG
Requirements: Dex 15
AR: as thief
WPN: as thief
SP: All, Astral, Creation*, Divination, Elemental (all)*, Guardian, Healing, Protection*, Summoning, Wards
PW: 1) hold portal, 3) knock or wizard lock, rope trick; 5) Leomund's tiny hut; 7) dimension door or Leomund's secure shelter; 10) Leomund's secret chest; 13) guards and wards
TURN: nil
I found the SB write up of Dalt just off the mark. Some of his granted powers seemed a bit obvious but actually not in keeping with his theme. Leomund's Tiny Hit and Secure Shelter - I suppose they open a kind of doorway but there are much less tenuous spells he could grant which is why I switched them to spells like passwall and dimension door - spells that actually open portals.
Here are a couple more;
Delleb (Lesser)
Reason, Intellect & Study
AB Wis 14, Int 14;
AL LG;
WP dart (1st), any bludgeoning;
AR any;
RA black robes;
SP All, Combat*, Divination, Guardian*, Law, Numbers*, Protection, Thought, Wards*;
SPL none;
PW 1) +4 save versus the effects of magical writings, runes or glyphs. If a save is not normally allowed the priest may still make a saving throw without the modifier; 3) identify (W1) 1/day; 7) gain limited sage ability, has access to one major field, with one special category per 4 points of intelligence. Must have access to a library; 10) legend lore (W6) 1/week;
TU turn -4 levels.
The Earth Dragon (Demi)
Earth & Hidden Treasures
AB Str 12;
AL LE, LN, NE;
WP club, dagger, mace, military pick, sling, staff, warhammer;
AR any (scale preferred);
RA brown robes embroidered with gold, dragon-skull helms at level 9+;
SP All, Combat*, Divination, Elemental (Earth), Guardian*, Wards;
SPL none;
PW 1) light 1/day; 5) +3 damage in combat when wielding a military pick; 7) spells are treated as 1 level higher when priest is in contact with the earth and within the Drachensgrabs; 13) earthquake 1/week;
TU nil.
Wolfling, I am currently on vacation and out of town, away from my references...when I get home, I know there was a write-up for Delleb in a Dragon Magazine I've got, and in The Slavers there's one for the Earth Dragon, too.
Thanks Lanthorn, there were indeed write ups for both of those deities. I have all those references books and used them when finalising my own versions (some are pretty much as written in the source material).
For comparison, here are Delleb and the Earth Dragon:
Delleb: The God Scholar, Sage of the Gods, The Good Savant
Lesser Power of Mt Celestia, LG
Symbol: Open Book
Worshipper's Alignment: LG
Clergy's Alignment: LG
Turn Undead: Yes
Specialty Priests: Tomesages
Requirements: Wis 15, Int 16
Alignment: LG
Weapons: Any
Armor: Any
Major Spheres: All, Combat (I find this odd), Divination, Healing, Law, Numbers, Thought, Time
Minor: War (equally peculiar to me)
Required Profs: Modern Languages, Reading/Writing
Bonus Profs: Ancient History, Local History, Religion
- All Tomesages can specialize in 1 nonwpn prof; checks are considered at 19 rating regardless of actual score
- All Tomesages gain the same bonus as Academicians (mage kit) with respect to Int and Wis proficiency checks
- Can cast Zone of Truth once per day
- At 6th lvl, cast Confusion once per day
- At 10th lvl, cast True Seeing once per day
- At 15th lvl, cast Divine Inspiration once per day
The Earth Dragon: Wyrm of the Hills, Earth Lord, Serpent of Stone
DemiGod of Oerth, LE
Symbol: Coiled Dragon
Worshipper's Alignment: Any nongood
Clergy's Alignment: any nongood
Turn/Command Undead: No
Specialty Priests
Requirements: Str 12, Wis 9
Weapons: Club, dagger, mace, pick, sling, staff, warhammer
Armor: Scale mail preferred, but any allowed
Major Spheres: All, Combat, Elemental (Earth), Healing, Protection, Weather
Minor Spheres: Divination, Guardian, Travelers, Wards
Required Profs: Reading/Writing, Religion
Bonus Profs: Local history (Drachensgrab Hills), Mountaineering
-At 1st lvl, receive one bonus spell each day; must be Light or Magical Stone
- At 3rd lvl, become as resilient as stone, receiving +2 hp and +1 save vs. Petrification or physical damage
- At 5th lvl, +3 damage with pick and learn Unleash the Dragon's Wrath
- At 7th lvl, priest can cast spells at +1 lvl if in direct contact with the earth
- At 9th lvl, priest must slay a good dragon to fashion an Earth Dragon Helm from its skull (new magic item)
- At 10th lvl, earns 1 extra attack with pick every other round
- At 13th lvl, priest cannot be moved or knocked down if in contact with the earth (magical or mundane); also receives Earthquake spell
-At 15th lvl, receive a free spell from Elemental Earth sphere (any lvl, including up to 7th)
Might I suggest that Delleb's Combat and War spheres are inspired by artists and scholars like Leonardo Da Vinci, who made war and combat serious parts of their scholarly agenda?
Agree with Lanthorn on this,,, Domains need a revist! I was enjoying the review.
Have often felt the whole of domains was dropped compared to schools for the arcane side.... My players are looking forward to seeing where this goes.
DLG, well met once more! Yeah, our friend and colleague, Wolfling, has been uncharacteristically absent as of late. Wonder if he got trapped, poor lupine.
DLG, do you have any specific wonderings on behalf of yourself or your players?
If we don't hear from Wolfling any time soon, I will pick up the proverbial torch on this thread and add to it.
Actually my group began discussing due to the limited nature of Fharlanghn, the Dweller on the Horizon, is the Oeridian god of Horizons, Distance, Travel, and Roads.
LUCK DOMAIN
PROTECTION DOMAIN
TRAVEL DOMAIN
Note this is a 3.xxx assessment
I get the Travel Domain, and maybe the protection but I think luck is a reach. supplement books assign the Sky I think (can partly see that due to his brother)
To travel wherever, whenever, one needs a bit of luck. It is not like worshipers of Fharlanghn go the the temple to consult their personal priest-travel agent or anything. But, yes, it is still a bit of a stretch, but more suitable than Sky if I had to pick only three.
One thing I didn't mention in this thread before, and I really should have as it colors my view of the Sphere system greatly, was that when the first listing of Greyhawk deity spheres came out for 2E, I made lists of every spell each of their priests had access to. I have long since filed those pages away in a crate somewhere (and they are no doubt being examined by "top men"), but they illustrated the glaring deficiencies in the Spheres system. While compiling those spell lists proved to be very useful to our game group, it was a bit disheartening to realize that some faiths just plain got screwed over, as the authors let the Sphere system rule over everything without perhaps realizing what they were doing (i.e. they never made these lists themselves), otherwise they would have realized that there was a mad discrepancy in spell availability, usefulness/utility, and even spell level (i.e. spell power).
This lead to odd things like Priests of Celestian finally hitting 7th level, and realizing that the only spells they had access to were cure serious wounds, neutralize poison, and meteors, while priests of almost every less powerful deity had access to two to three times as many 4th levle spells. The Added Spells section was meant to tweak this when needed, but the ball was dropped there all too often as well. No protection from lightning spell access for priests of a deity that travels to ALL of the Planes, and whose priests like to emulate him by doing likewise? Really? Couldn't put in that perfectly suitable fourth 4th level spell in there for them? I updated those lists when Tome of Magic came out, and that book did serve to at least flesh some things out a bit more, but it wasn't "the fix".
Player's Options: Spells & Magic addresses things better still, but it isn't completely "the fix" either, but everything it presents comes about as close as one will get. To that book I would only add one thing, that being all three volumes of The Priest's Spell Compendium. They collect nearly every priest spell from 2E in one place, with some nice subtext telling you where each spell came from. Some of the spells have even been edited! Combining those will yield better results with regard to spell access. But...each faith will still need to be examined, and their Added Spells sections will need to be added to in order to get "the fix". These two sources are exceptionally useful if one is thinking about re-aligning the Specialty Priest Spheres.
Also, I didn't particularly limit a priest's Spheres based on the divine rank of their deity. I left that out of the game in the interest of character balance, and so the divine rank bit was rendered an inconsequential "But my god can beat up your god." sort of thing. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Last edited by Cebrion on Fri Nov 28, 2014 2:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
To travel wherever, whenever, one needs a bit of luck. It is not like worshipers of Fharlanghn go the the temple to consult their personal priest-travel agent or anything. But, yes, it is still a bit of a stretch, but more suitable than Sky if I had to pick only three.
I only mentioned "sky" because it was published elsewhere (ie complete divine?) And would guess thier rationale was because of who his brother is.
Cebrion wrote:
One thing I didn't mention in this thread before, and I really should have as it colors my view of the Sphere system greatly, was that when the first listing of Greyhawk deity spheres came out for 2E, I made lists of every spell each of their priests had access to.
That exact task is what my group was inquiring about.
Cebrion wrote:
I have long since filed those pages away in a crate somewhere (and they are no doubt being examined by "top men"), but they illustrated the glaring deficiencies in the Spheres system. While compiling those spell lists proved to be very useful to our game group, it was a bit disheartening to realize that some faiths just plain got screwed over, as the authors let the Sphere system rule over everything without perhaps realizing what they were doing (i.e. they never made these lists themselves), otherwise they would have realized that there was a mad discrepancy in spell availability, usefulness/utility, and even spell level (i.e. spell power).
This lead to odd things like Priests of Celestian finally hitting 7th level, and realizing that the only spells they had access to were cure serious wounds, neutralize poison, and meteors, while priests of almost every less powerful deity had access to two to three times as many 4th levle spells. The Added Spells section was meant to tweak this when needed, but the ball was dropped there all too often as well. No protection from lightning spell access for priests of a deity that travels to ALL of the Planes, and whose priests like to emulate him by doing likewise? Really? Couldn't put in that perfectly suitable fourth 4th level spell in there for them? I updated those lists when Tome of Magic came out, and that book did serve to at least flesh some things out a bit more, but it wasn't "the fix".
Yep.... BUT IMO it can make sense that some magic may be the realm of only certain gods, but I agree the disparage of spell distrebution by sphere (domain for the 3.xx) is not equal. If, lets say, one spell were unavailable to a priest, it would be countered with one that is available to only that belief. Seems I recall MS or Argon use this approach with Ressurection (read somewhere). I think this could lend to some interesting role play with PCs seeking out particular magics in dire circumstance. Futher it would certainly be another thing to concider during character generation.
Cebrion wrote:
Player's Options: Spells & Magic addresses things better still, but it isn't completely "the fix" either, but everything it presents comes about as close as one will get. To that book I would only add one thing, that being all three volumes of The Priest's Spell Compendium. They collect nearly every priest spell from 2E in one place, with some nice subtext telling you where each spell came from. Some of the spells have even been edited! Combining those will yield better results with regard to spell access. But...each faith will still need to be examined, and their Added Spells sections will need to be added to in order to get "the fix". These two sources are exceptionally useful if one is thinking about re-aligning the Specialty Priest Spheres.
Forgot they had made the priest version of those..... Have the Arcane set of 4, Amazon here I come!!!
Cebrion wrote:
Also, I didn't particularly limit a priest's Spheres based on the divine rank of their deity. I left that out of the game in the interest of character balance, and so the divine rank bit was rendered an inconsequential "But my god can beat up your god." sort of thing.
I get the rationale for your choice, BUT is that not what makes one god greater than another? Thier ability to provide their followers with greater magics? From a DM perspective I can see not wanting to "track" god "level progression" but would certainly mimic the rise and fall of "heavenly power" and more fully explain the motivations of the gods and the need for worshipers and faithful.
In General, Well Put Big C and describes the consensus of myself and my players as well... would certainly support a collective to re-visit & update to bring it more balance and in line with the "schooling structure" of the Arcane. (Not that it is perfect , but is more defined and polished than Divine)
I get the rationale for your choice, BUT is that not what makes one god greater than another? Their ability to provide their followers with greater magics?
No. The number of followers, and their influence in the mortal realm, is what makes one religion greater than another. The actual power of the gods themselves is irrelevant. The power of a priest is not inherently tied to the power of their deity, because, in the rules, Clerics of all deities are all equal in power. The only thing that differs among them is alignment, which limits some of their spell usage, and determines whether they turn or command undead. That's it. Any real disparity is so minor that it is inconsequential, and so they are balanced.
The perceived power of deities has everything to do with the influence of their church in the mortal realm (which is mainly tied to the number, position, and/or influence of its worshipers), not anything related to setting up a "My priest can cast 7th level spells, and yours can't! Ha ha!" or similar situation. Two good cases would be Heironeous and Iuz. There are plenty of greater gods who could annihilate them, but look at their followers. How powerful these beings are on their own is a non-issue. Okay, maybe the Monty Haulers who have turned the deity list into their own personal "kill list", and who are using their 287th level characters to hunt down and kill all of the gods, might think it an issue that needs to be be poured over. These two deities are not among the most powerful in and of themselves, but their power and influence in the mortal realm is beyond obvious. That is what makes them powerful, and you don't need rules to force the situation. No divine hierarchy needs to be enforced in the mortal realm in the form of overly wrecking one class; especially as it results in the breakdown of one of the core classes and not any of the others.
In the core rules, the whole question of deity power really is only a "But my god can beat up your god" type of thing. This is of course by design, and that design is to maintain internal as well as external class balance. At their core, Specialty Priests should embody this balance as well, meaning that none of them should be inherently weaker/more powerful than another, and none of them should be weaker/more powerful than any of the other classes. One who is designing something that is an integral part of the core game ought to have game balance at the forefront of their mind, always. If they do not, they are not adding to the core game, but are detracting from it.
Let me illustrate the "divine rank equivocates to Specialty Priest power" idea in another way, using the Thief class as the victim. So, how could I make the Thief class similar to having disparate power levels among the Specialty Priests due to the divine rank of their respective gods? I could make it depend on where the Thief is from. A Country Thief will surely not be as skilled as a City of Greyhawk Thief, and a thief from somewhere else will surely be better than the former, but not as good as the latter, right? Of course they would! And so it comes down to this:
The Country Thief, being a Lesser thief, only gets 20 discretionary points at first level to spend on thief skills, and only gains 10 discretionary points per level thereafter. Yeah, the player might have just wanted to role-play a Country Thief, but I am going to shove some inequitable rule-play down their throats too. Will I give the character any other benefits to counter the penalties I have forced upon them, or require the character to gain fewer experience points due to them acquiring fewer benefits upon leveling up? Nope! Hey, it was their choice to role-play a Country Thief after all...
Then we have the City of Dyvers Thief, and we all know that they are really just City of Greyhawk Thief wannabess. Accordingly, these Intermediate thieves only get 40 discretionary points at first level to spend on thief skills, and only gain 20 discretionary points per level thereafter. And, no, they don't get anything else either. Suck it Dyvers Thieves' Guild!
Which brings us to the City of Greyhawk Thief. This Greater thief of course gets the full 60 discretionary points at first level to spend on thief skills, and gains the full 30 discretionary points per level thereafter, because a City of Greyhawk Thief has access to all of the best possible thieving experiences and guild training to boot!
There's some Specialty Thieves for you, with a built-in background hierarchy to "enhance" the class. And will I be giving any of them variant abilities which equitably make up for the shortcomings, or give a cut in XP needed to level-up instead? Heck no! You chose to play this kind of character, so suck it up, Nancy! Might as well do the same for all of the classes, eh? Well, obviously I don't think any of this, and that notable disparity in things that are meant to have none should be avoided at all costs.
Basically, when creating something, don't purposely set out to hamstring a player simply because of what they want to play- accommodate them equitably; treat them fairly. And so, write up Specialty Priests that don't screw with the class balance of the game, but ones that treat with it fairly. It will take a bit more work to do it well, but the end result will be so much better.
Last of all, you guys should really consider breaking up the deity discussion into separate threads for each deity, such as "Specialty Priests of St. Cuthbert Discussion", etc. As the deity name will then be featured in the thread titles, you might get more interest, as not everyone is interested in ALL of the deities, but are definitely interested in particular ones. Seeing those topical names might have people popping in more. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
No. The number of followers, and their influence in the mortal realm, is what makes one religion greater than another. The actual power of the gods themselves is irrelevant. The power of a priest is not inherently tied to the power of their deity, because, in the rules, Clerics of all deities are all equal in power. The only thing that differs among them is alignment, which limits some of their spell usage, and determines whether they turn or command undead. That's it. Any real disparity is so minor that it is inconsequential, and so they are balanced.
I thought the power DOES matter in that only Greater and Intermediate Powers can bestow upon their clerics 7th level spells, Lesser Powers can grant up to 6th level spells, Demigods only 5th level (unless they claim the Prime Material as a home domain, such as Wastri and Iuz, in which case 6th level is possible), and Quasi or Hero deities only 4th...
As far as balance goes, I totally agree with you, Cebrion. I've been frustrated by the apparent discrepancy among the spells, spheres, weapons, armor, and special abilities granted among the various priesthoods. With the arrival of the 2.5 supplementary "Options" rules, a player had to buy all of those skills, etc. Outside of that, however, there is no real balance inherent in the system. Some clerics get hosed whereas others seem to have it all.
For instance, I have long thought that clerics of Heironeous are among the latter category. They get the best armor and weapon choices, can turn undead (if only a bit limited), and have an awesome range of spell spheres. In contrast look at poor priests of Fharlanghn. They are limited in armor, weapons, cannot turn undead, and have a far more narrow range of spheres.
I guess that's where the DM comes into play to establish certain balancing internal guidelines via role-play, religious/political responsibilities and duties, etc.
I thought the power DOES matter in that only Greater and Intermediate Powers can bestow upon their clerics 7th level spells, Lesser Powers can grant up to 6th level spells, Demigods only 5th level (unless they claim the Prime Material as a home domain, such as Wastri and Iuz, in which case 6th level is possible), and Quasi or Hero deities only 4th...
You are correct. For some "brilliant" reason, various Greyhawk authors got it into their heads that limiting spell level access according to divine rank (this was not the case when Spheres first appeared in Greyhawk Adventures; some genius(es) added it later) would make Greyhawk "just that much more full of awesome character", without apparently giving much thought to what the end result would be. As previously stated, the end result is a mess, and we all know that; this sort of discussion would not exist if it were not. Having access to higher level spells does not necessarily mean that a priest can do more things, more powerful things, or even more very useful things in a game where each character being as close to equitably useful is kind of important. As you note, it seems very obvious that certain favorite deities got loaded down with goodies, while less popular ones got shafted.
On a positive note, I just found my folder full of Specialty Priest papers. They are all neatly (for me ) hand-written with mechanical pencil on lined paper, in a format of Specialty Priest information on the front, and their entire list of spells on the back, by level . Some are incomplete because I never finished the project (partially due to a lack of playing at the time, and partially due to being dejected at how messed up things were, and how many deities there were to still work on). I'll post up Celestian for you guys (not my adjusted version, but what the original version allowed for), but not right now as I am on my way to run my Pathhawk/Greyhfinder campaign. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Last edited by Cebrion on Mon Dec 23, 2013 6:54 am; edited 1 time in total
Spheres for priests of Celestian first showed up in Greyhawk Adventures. One thing of note that becomes quickly obvious is that somebody did NOT proofread the list of added spells, as three of them are already covered by the listed spheres (i.e. the first clue that not all is likely well in sphere land).
Spells by Level (According to Greyhawk Adventures and AD&D 2E Players Handbook)
Yep, that really helped a lot. Shed a tear for “The Far Wanderer”, Intermediate God of Stars, Space, Wanderers, and “Meh”.
The spheres were tweaked a bit in From the Ashes- added spells were dropped but for meteors, Healing was downgraded to minor access, and Travelers (major) and Thought (minor) were added. The special spell abilities were rolled into the basic spell list (priest level required to access them is listed in parentheses after those spells) rather than granted as extra abilities, but the +10 AEX penalty was also dropped. Oh, and priests of Celestian can still cast animate dead, but can no longer turn undead. Gotta love that.
Spells by Level (Using From the Ashes and AD&D 2E Tome of Magic)
1st- bless/curse, combine, cure disease/cause disease, cure light wounds/cause light wounds, detect evil/good, emotion read, faerie fire, feather fall (1st), invisibility to undead, jump (3rd), know direction, light/darkness, purify food & drink/putrefy food & drink, sacred guardian, spider climb (7th), thought capture.
2nd- aid, aura of comfort, create holy symbol, idea, levitate (5th), lighten load, mind read, obscurement, sanctify/defile, silence 15’ radius, slow poison, wyvern watch.
3rd- animate dead, call lightning, continual light/continual darkness, create campsite/break campsite, create food & water, cure blindness or deafness/cause blindness or deafness, emotion control, feign death, fly (9th), glyph of warding, helping hand, know customs, memory read, negative plane protection, starshine, telepathy.
4th- addition, blessed warmth, circle of privacy, dimension door (11th), focus, meteors of celestian, tree steed, uplift.
5th- atonement, blessed abundance, clear path/clutter path, easy march, moonbeam, rainbow.
6th- animate object, blade barrier, heroes’ feast, monster mount, sol’s searing orb, the great circle/the black circle, wall of thorns.
7th- chariot of Sustarre, hovering road, sunray, teleport without error (16th).
There are more spells to choose from, but many are of limited application/questionable usefulness, and so playing a priest of Celestian back then sucked pretty bad (yes, I speak from experience). That takes us to the Player’s Options: Spells & magic iteration, which changes things just a bit more.
Spells by Level (Using From the Ashes and AD&D 2E Player’s Options: Spells & Magic)
1st- astral celerity, bless/curse, blessed watchfulness, combine, cure light wounds/cause light wounds, detect magic, light/darkness, dispel fatigue, emotion read, faerie fire, invisibility to undead, obscurement, orison, purify food & drink/putrefy food & drink, feather fall (1st), jump (3rd), know direction, sacred guardian, speak with astral traveler, spider climb (7th), sunscorch, thought capture.
2nd- aid, astral awareness, aura of comfort, chant, create holy symbol, cure moderate wounds/cause moderate wounds, ethereal barrier, idea, iron vigil, levitate (5th), lighten load, mind read, mystic transfer, restore strength, sanctify/defile, silence 15’ radius, slow poison, wyvern watch.
3rd- animate dead, astral window, call lightning, continual light/continual darkness, create campsite, create food & water, cure blindness or deafness/cause blindness or deafness, cure disease/cause disease, dispel magic, emotion control, etherealness, feign death, fly (9th), glyph of warding, helping hand, hold poison, know customs, memory read, negative plane protection, remove curse/bestow curse, remove paralysis, repair injury, speak with dead, starshine, telepathy, weather prediction.
4th- blessed abundance, blessed warmth, circle of privacy, dimension door (11th), focus, join with astral traveler, meteors of celestian, tongues, tree steed, uplift.
5th- atonement, clear path, commune, easy march, meld, moonbeam, plane shift, quest, rainbow.
6th- blade barrier, heroes’ feast, monster mount, sol’s searing orb, speak with monsters.
7th- astral spell, gate, hovering road, sunray, teleport without error (16th), the great circle/the black circle.
And there you have it. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Last edited by Cebrion on Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:56 am; edited 2 times in total
I've always limited the Spell availability based upon the "Power's" level.
In our own world mythology -- and by our own definition -- Heracles (Hercules) was a demi-god, but he couldn't raise the dead. (And I don't think fighting with Thanatos to bring back a dead person is quite the same thing, )
The Norse Gods also -- supposedly -- couldn't bring back the dead . . . though I see an incongruity there.
So, for me, it's the same in the game; a Demi-god, or Lesser power isn't going to be able to grant "True Resurrection" and other such spells.
You'd think a Power who travels the various Planes of existence, most of which are very dangerous, would grant Protection Sphere (at least minor!) to his clerics!!! What good is Plane Shifting to another realm if you are dead instantly upon arriving???
shaking his head,
Lanthorn
p.s. I've also had a difficult time resolving the Thought/Divination Spheres; I'd think if a priesthood had one of them, they'd have the other as well (at least minor) since both convey information and are closely associated. Maybe a topic for another thread, though...
Since Al'Akbar is discussed; as you may or may not know, I am compiling gazetteers for the Beyond the Flanaess Project. One region is the Gulf of Ghayar and the Corsair Isles of the Dramidj Sea. As offshoots of the baklunish basin, its pantheon is prominent. As such; I have created the the information below to illuminate the situation.
Of course, the best known schism resides within the faith of Al'Akbar. The core of the spiritual dispute is a result of the theft of a pair of sacred relics, the Cup and Talisman of Al'Akbar. Their recovery remains the avowed aspiration of the religious as well as the temporal authorities within the baklunish basin.
Sects of Al’Akbar
Exalted Mosque of Al'Akbar
Theological Interpretation: Exalted Faith: LG (NG)
Influence: Caliphate of Ekbir, Sultanate of Zeif, Protectorate of the Verdured Heights (Mur) and Southern Tusmit
Oversight Order: Abd-Al-Din (Servant of the Faith)
Member: The Faithful
Heraldry: Eight-Pointed Star of Al'Akbar
Its teachings emphasize social decorum and personal dignity to encourage a righteous society. Dominant within Ekbir, Zeif, Mur and southern Tusmit. The Abd-Al-Din oversees the Elder Spahi, Paladins and Qadi, Priests. Known for their ceaseless efforts to ease tribal tensions. Thus, this interpretation has achieved some success amongst the southern hillmen.
The faithful believe the recovery of the Cup and Talisman, will encourage the spiritual reconciliation needed to form a universal caliphate.
True Mosque of Al'Akbar
Theological Interpretation: True Faith: LN
Influence: Ket and Northern Tusmit
Oversight Order: Abd-Al-Abbas (Servant of the Austere)
Member: The Obedient
Heraldry: Cup and Talisman of Al'Akbar
Its sermons emphasize the strict discipline and doctrinal purity required to maintain a moral society. Dominant within Ket and northern Tusmit. The Abd-Al-Abbas oversees the Elder Somb, Paladins and Mullahs, Priests. Known for its promotion of traditionalist values. Converts seek to enhance their position within southern Tusmit and Thornward.
The obedient believe the recovery of the Cup and Talisman, will grant them the prestige to supplant the Exalted Faith.
Faith of Al'Akbar
Theological Interpretation: Chosen Faith: LG (CG)
Influence: Plains of the Paynims and Sharifate of Risay
Oversight Order: Abd-Al-Mukhtar (Servant of the Chosen)
Member: The Dutiful
Heraldry: None
Adherents consider themselves the guardian of the unsullied tenets of Al’Akbar. Awaiting the eventual rise of the blessed Mahdi; the true son of Al’Akbar. Dominant on the Plains of the Paynims and the risian coastal cities. The Abd-Al-Mukhtar oversees the Dervishes, Paladins and Imams, Priests.
The dutiful believe both the Exalted Faith and True Faith are misguided corruptions. Of course, the recovery of the Cup and Talisman, could unite the paynim tribes.
Curious; as to any thoughts?
PS: Contact Me For Drop Box Admission; Recently, completed the Gulf Gazetteer and I am currently editing the Celestial Imperium.
Maybe it's just me, but I've always considered Al Ak'bar the Baklunish equivalent of St. Cuthbert (with a dose of Pholtus' puritanical doctrine added in for measure)...
Sorry for the absence! ANyways, to get straight back into it I'll include what I'd come up with for Fharlanghn and Al'Akbar ...
Al'Akbar (Demi)
Guardianship, Faithfulness, Dignity & Duty
AB Std;
AL LG, LN;
WP falchion, scimitar, dagger, knife, spear, mace;
AR any up to scale;
RA white robes (True Faith), white or tan robes trimmed with gold or purple (Exalted Faith), men wear turbans, women a simple white-gold circlet;
SP All, Combat*, Divination, Guardian, Healing*, Law, Protection*, Sun*;
SPL none;
PW 1) receive Ancient Baklunish as a bonus proficiency; 3) know alignment 1/day; 5) create food & water 1/day; 7) divination (no materials needed) 1/week; 10) atonement 1/day;
TU turn -3 levels.
Fharlanghn (Intermediate)
Horizons, Distance, Travel & Roads
AB Wis 9;
AL NG, N;
WP any non-edged weapon (staff 1st);
AR non-metal;
RA brown or green robes;
SP All, Combat*, Creation*, Divination*, Elemental (air, earth), Healing, Protection, Time*, Travellers, Weather*;
SPL footsore;
PW 1) all MV rates increased by 25%, 35% chance to avoid getting lost, increases by 1% for each level gained; 3) all ability checks made for jogging / running made with +3 bonus; 5) dimension door (W4) 1/day; 9) wind walk 1/day; 13) find the path 1/week;
TU Nil
I came to the same conclusion as most of you that the god of travel should grant the Protection sphere to his followers or some of their journeys may end up being a little shorter than planned!
You are correct. For some "brilliant" reason, various Greyhawk authors got it into their heads that limiting spell level access according to divine rank (this was not the case when Spheres first appeared in Greyhawk Adventures; some genius(es) added it later) would make Greyhawk "just that much more full of awesome character", without apparently giving much thought to what the end result would be.
Actually, limiting spell level access by divine power came earlier, in Deities & Demigods/Legends & Lore. That book is where divine ranks first appeared in the official rules, and since Greyhawk Adventures uses the same concept (and was written by a coauthor of D&D/L&L), it would really surprise me if they didn't intend for it to apply.
I'm sure we've had this debate before but personally I don't have a problem with limiting spell level access based on divine rank. I find it adds a certain level of dynamism to the theology also I adopt the view that the power of a deity is usually proportionate to the number of worshippers. Which is why the gods tend to need them and why the care about otherwise irrelevant mortals.
I'm pretty sure the various sourcebooks describe lesser deities for example as being concerned with more specific or specialised portfolios and / or being less widely worshipped.
As for fairness of play - I always make it clear to my players about the level limit and that if that's a problem they should stick to greater deities. It's rarely a deterrent and I like that the players often pick a less powerful deity because there is something specific about the god that appeals to them. It mirrors a certain level of reality in my mind. Sure you could worship Pelor god of the sun but actually Sotillion the goddess of summer calls to you more deeply despite the fact she is not as powerful. It's a spiritual calling. Power players / characters will pick greater gods which is fine.
As a side note - I would never rule out players of less powerful deities undertaking quests or pursuing options to gain more powerful spells but it shouldn't be easy and worthy of an adventure.
That's just my view though - I can see the arguments for and against and think both sides have some merits.
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Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises
But, yes, it is still a bit of a stretch, but more suitable than Sky if I had to pick only three.
) hand-written with mechanical pencil on lined paper, in a format of Specialty Priest information on the front, and their entire list of spells on the back, by level . Some are incomplete because I never finished the project (partially due to a lack of playing at the time, and partially due to being dejected at how messed up things were, and how many deities there were to still work on). I'll post up Celestian for you guys (not my adjusted version, but what the original version allowed for), but not right now as I am on my way to run my Pathhawk/Greyhfinder campaign.
