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Light Spells

 
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jamesdglick
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:05 pm    Post subject: Light Spells Reply with quote

In some rulings, a Light spell could blind an opponent in AD&D1. Is that general?
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DMPrata
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not "in some rulings", it's by the book.
Gary Gygax, in Dungeon Masters Guide, p. 41, wrote:
Light: It should be noted that if this spell is cast upon the visage or before the visual organs of a creature, it will tend to blind it (rather as if a strong light were placed before its eyes), and its attacks and defenses will be a 4 on "to hit", saving throws, and even armor class.
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peyre
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 2:58 pm    Post subject: If it fails its saving throw Reply with quote

Right. Of course, the target creature is entitled to a save, in which case the light emanates from directly behind the target (PHB, p. 44).
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Lanthorn
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, I conclude the use of the spell in this manner (as well as Darkness and the 'Continual' varieties) is a 'called shot' and gives the target a +4 save bonus to negate the effects.

-Lanthorn
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peyre
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 4:00 pm    Post subject: If it fails its saving throw Reply with quote

Right. Of course, the target creature is entitled to a save, in which case the light emanates from directly behind the target (PHB, p. 44).
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Cebrion
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2015 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lanthorn wrote:
Personally, I conclude the use of the spell in this manner (as well as Darkness and the 'Continual' varieties) is a 'called shot' and gives the target a +4 save bonus to negate the effects.

-Lanthorn

It is an auto-hit spell, just like a fireball. You simply choose the point of emanation, just as you can choose the point at which a fireball will explode without it being a "called shot". The saving throw determines the outcome, for one target creature at the point of the light's emanation, not for all creatures in the area of effect of the light spell.
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SirXaris
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Cebrion.

Spells either require the magi-user to toll To Hit, or they require the target to make a Saving Throw. One or the other, not both.

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Lanthorn
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2015 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gents, I am not at all suggesting that there should be a 'to hit' roll AND a saving throw as well. I am of the stance that since the wizard is making a 'called shot' effect on a spell (targeting the eyes, for instance, to blind the victim) instead of merely casting the effect in a general area that the victim receive a bonus to his/her saving throw. Unlike most spells, Light, its Continual variety, and the reversals, DO allow a caster to pinpoint the effect If the victim fails the save, he/she is effectively SOL for the rest of the spell's duration unless the magic is removed/cancelled. A blinded person receives many severe penalties, including but not limited to the following: -4 hit roll in combat, no Dex or shield bonus (cannot see your attackers), impaired movement rates, easier chance of getting stabbed in the back, etc. I just think it's a bit overbalancing is all without granting the victim a bonus to avoid the effect, especially for a low level spell, for if the target DOES fail, then he/she is pretty much 'dead meat' barring magical intervention. You may disagree, but I merely want to explain my reasoning.

-Lanthorn
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SirXaris
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2015 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand, Lanthorn, and your point is a good one. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Smile

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Cebrion
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2015 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I very much disagree. Light is just potentially very effective, but it is still an all or nothing gambit. Compare light to charm person though. A blinded enemy will at least still fight. A charmed enemy is simply done. Should charm person therefore be a "called shot" spell? How about sleep, which can drop up to 16 enemies with no save allowed? Light is not exactly the ultimate 1st level combat spell, and is just fine as it is.
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DMPrata
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lanthorn wrote:
Gents, I am not at all suggesting that there should be a 'to hit' roll AND a saving throw as well. I am of the stance that since the wizard is making a 'called shot' effect on a spell (targeting the eyes, for instance, to blind the victim) instead of merely casting the effect in a general area that the victim receive a bonus to his/her saving throw. Unlike most spells, Light, its Continual variety, and the reversals, DO allow a caster to pinpoint the effect If the victim fails the save, he/she is effectively SOL for the rest of the spell's duration unless the magic is removed/cancelled. A blinded person receives many severe penalties, including but not limited to the following: -4 hit roll in combat, no Dex or shield bonus (cannot see your attackers), impaired movement rates, easier chance of getting stabbed in the back, etc. I just think it's a bit overbalancing is all without granting the victim a bonus to avoid the effect, especially for a low level spell, for if the target DOES fail, then he/she is pretty much 'dead meat' barring magical intervention. You may disagree, but I merely want to explain my reasoning.

-Lanthorn

Just for the record, the effects of a light spell are as stated in Dungeon Masters Guide, p. 41:
Quote:
It should be noted that if this spell is cast upon the visage or before the visual organs of a creature, it will tend to blind it (rather as if a strong light were placed before its eyes), and its attacks and defenses will be a 4 on "to hit", saving throws, and even armor class.

There's no mention of loss of DEX or shield bonuses.
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Lanthorn
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kinda figured I'd be the only one standing on this perspective.

As for a charmed enemy, I wouldn't say they were "done" since the spell does not allow for complete domination of said victim. The caster may be safe from the charmed victim, but that doesn't mean his allies are going to be well received, for instance. Sleep is very random in its effects based on the result from the 2d4 rolled, and high HD or level targets are totally immune.

As for losing Dex or shield bonuses, to me it stands to reason that if you are blind and cannot see attacks coming, you lose both. I'm sure I could dig that up somewhere from a book if I looked hard enough. Wink

Again, thanks, everyone. Regardless of our stances, I don't mind a good debate and I have always appreciated the multiplicity of views represented on a variety of topics on this site.

-Lanthorn, Alone in the Light
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Cebrion
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lanthorn wrote:
Kinda figured I'd be the only one standing on this perspective.

As for a charmed enemy, I wouldn't say they were "done" since the spell does not allow for complete domination of said victim. The caster may be safe from the charmed victim, but that doesn't mean his allies are going to be well received, for instance.

the charmer merely recall his allies, and talls everyone to "stand down". A shrot expalnation ensues about there simply being a misundstandning, and then everyone is friends. Utterly simple.

Quote:
Sleep is very random in its effects based on the result from the 2d4 rolled, and high HD or level targets are totally immune.

Up to 4d4 1 HD creatures actually, but high level opponents, well, you aren't exactly going to be thinking of hitting them with a 1st level spell anyways, but if you are then ti will likely be charm person, magic missile, or burning hands. Light will be y dons of the list.

Quote:
As for losing Dex or shield bonuses, to me it stands to reason that if you are blind and cannot see attacks coming, you lose both. I'm sure I could dig that up somewhere from a book if I looked hard enough. Wink


The rules don't focus on Dexterity or shield bonuses because not all affected things will even have a Dexterity bonus or shield bonus, ergo they go with an effect which penalizes all blinded things equitably. That is a good way to rule something in my opinion.
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Lanthorn
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We may need to agree to disagree about how 'easy' it is to get allies to 'stand down' even if charmed. Even my best friends don't always do as I suggest. At least they won't attack me. I hope. :)

My bad about the HD total on the Sleep effects, but, overall, I think you and I do agree that it is a pretty effective low level offensive spell, along with a few others you noted.

Onward to other topics.

-Lanthorn
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BlueWitch
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lanthorn wrote:
Kinda figured I'd be the only one standing on this perspective.

As for a charmed enemy, I wouldn't say they were "done" since the spell does not allow for complete domination of said victim. The caster may be safe from the charmed victim, but that doesn't mean his allies are going to be well received, for instance. Sleep is very random in its effects based on the result from the 2d4 rolled, and high HD or level targets are totally immune.

-Lanthorn, Alone in the Light


THANK YOU!!!!
A game I played in several years ago, the DM had the idea that a charmed person was effectively a mindless automaton. I wanted to maintain te position that a ranger (the one affected by the charm spell) would not battle his (when not under a spell) comrades to aid his species enemy and the wizard who was leading them.
But, the DM is the one who sets the rules (or in this case, phones it in), so I didn't argue the point too much, not wanting to bog the game down too much.
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