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    Canonfire :: View topic - [Prince Thrommel - the ToEE & Greyhawk Wars Contradictio
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    [Prince Thrommel - the ToEE & Greyhawk Wars Contradictio
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    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 26, 2010
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    Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:47 pm  
    [Prince Thrommel - the ToEE & Greyhawk Wars Contradictio

    Spoilers below!




    Okay... so I played through ToEE and moved on to FR in the 1e years, before the Greyhawk Wars returned my interest to GH. In the shift from high school to college and the Corps, I lost, sold, or traded my copy of ToEE and so this contradiction somehow escaped my notice - perhaps ebcause in our game play we never found this room...

    Anyway, I've been listening to the The Temple of Elemental Evil novel (which is pretty good, IMO, exactly what I wanted, straight-forward group going through the module). They found and freed Thrommel, and I went to my copy of ToEE (I have replaced the books I lost during my younger travelling days :)) and realized that yes, Thrommel IS imprisoned in ToEE.

    So... why is he still missing in the Greyhawk Wars? That seems like a pretty major over-sight, it must have been intentional. Assuming players fail in the tomb of Horrors is logical, but it seems a bit much to assume players fail in ToEE. Anyone know why Sergant did this?
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 11, 2009
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    From: Aspedri

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    Fri Nov 22, 2013 1:33 pm  

    Welcome to the forum GMWestermeyer. If you have not had the opportunity to do so, please introduce yourself here: http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=4415.

    That being said, my assumption is that while the defeat of the resurgent temple is part of canon (occurring around 576 CY), the victorious heroes do not necessarily find all of the loot or Prince Thrommel. This has a lot of advantages from a story perspective, as it keeps Veluna and Furyondy from uniting completely, and also creates an internal succession issue for Furyondy. This does not mean that this was intentional, but could easily have been an oversight by the writers of GH Wars, though Carl Sergeant makes great use of it in The Markland.

    That being said, what did you do in the Corps and how long did you serve?
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 07, 2004
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    From: Mt. Smolderac

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    Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:24 pm  

    I'm in agreement with Tarleton, since in T1-4 Thrommel is very well hidden, making it unlikely he would be found or revived by a party of adventurers. There is a very good thread about what happened to Thrommel, especially in regard to his appearance as a vampire in Return to the ToEE.
    One often forgotten bit of info, which Kirt raises in the thread is the appearance of Thrommel's battered signet ring missing its gemstone in Return of the Eight. Tenser discovered that the gemstone holds Thrommel's soul, which was absorbed when he was killed. So in this situation Thrommel died. Kirt assumes this was after he was awakened by the party in ToEE and was on his way back to Furyondy. With the ring is a parchment containing a prophecy given to Thrommel I, giving clues as to where the gemstone containing Thrommel's soul can be found.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:27 pm  

    Novels generally aren't regarded with the same level of canonical authority as modules & sourcebooks, so what takes place in a novel is not necessarily a reflection of "official events" in the setting.

    In the 3E module Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, it is revealed that Prince Thrommel is now an actual vampire, so one can assume he was either still imprisoned or had been turned to evil by the time of the GH Wars.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:49 am  

    I agree that novels in Greyhawk are not particularly canon -given the authors widely varying ideas about the setting this is inevitible.
    I'm more concerned with the idea that for most campaigns, Thrommel was saved by the party. It seems to be a primary focus of the adventure.

    So subsequent setting development should have assumed he was rescued, just like adevntures set after A1-4 should assume the Slavers are defeated and those after G1-3 assume the giant raids are stopped and the drow connection discovered.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu Nov 28, 2013 10:26 am  

    But thanks for the link to that thread, I'm obviously late to the Thrommel party. :)
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    From: Mt. Smolderac

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    Thu Nov 28, 2013 8:05 pm  

    GMWestermeyer wrote:
    I agree that novels in Greyhawk are not particularly canon -given the authors widely varying ideas about the setting this is inevitible.
    I'm more concerned with the idea that for most campaigns, Thrommel was saved by the party. It seems to be a primary focus of the adventure.

    So subsequent setting development should have assumed he was rescued, just like adevntures set after A1-4 should assume the Slavers are defeated and those after G1-3 assume the giant raids are stopped and the drow connection discovered.


    I get confused about this myself, as far as the official LG timeline goes, did the events of G1-3 happen as in the original modules; raids by giants, etc..., or is it the whole GDQ1-7 black sphere of Lolth over Istivin thing? The same thing with Scourge of the Slave Lords vs. the original run of the A1-4. When reading through the LGG there aren't any references to the black sphere, which would lead me to believe the official timeline holds with the more low key events of the original module run.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    From: Michigan

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    Sat Nov 30, 2013 3:41 am  

    The black sphere is mentioned in Dungeon Magazine's Istivin adventures, so it was Paizo canon at least.

    But note that the "best" ending of Q1, the death of Lolth, was not assumed to have been accomplished. In fact, none of the suggested endings of the Queen of the Spiders supermodule are assumed to have happened as written. Lolth's immediate schemes were halted somehow and her bubble was burst, but Lolth herself was free to try to conquer the world again in a few years, her other conquered worlds remaining in thrall.

    Assuming every major adventure goal is completed successfully is a reasonable approach, but apparently not one TSR necessarily subscribed to.

    I don't think leaving Thrommel in captivity was a mistake or oversight. The decision was made to bring Oerth into a dark place, and a united nation of Good in the north would have complicated that.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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    Sat Nov 30, 2013 4:31 am  

    The only problem with that line of reasoning is that Furyondy and Veluna were already united as very strong allies (along with Highfolk), so not much would be different on this account other than that there would be an official union...and yet another glorious hero would be present to witness the spread of Iuz, the downfall of the Shield Lands, etc. No outcomes need be changed at all just because Thrommel was around.

    As it is, Thrommel's absence is not connected to the events of the Greyhakw Wars. If he were present, it could have been downplayed something along the lines of, "The elation the people of Furyondy and Veluna felt at the union of their great nations, through the marriage of Jolene to Prince Thrommel, was short lived, as [insert doom & gloom event here]." It fits in rather easily, and still leads into the doom & gloom to come. Thrommel's presence, and the union of the two nations, would be a big morale boost, but would it be so notable in the face of of the power of Iuz spreading across nearly the entity of the north? Not really. Sure, his presence might lead to the common people having a bit more hope, but they really already have that even without Thrommel (the good folk of Furyondy are just stubborn that way it seems). Happy

    So, no changes are really needed, other than writing in that for the now King Thrommel had taken charge of military matters. Outcomes can stay the same, because, though beneficial, one state marriage does not a "The good guys automatically win big! Yay!" situation make. This is what I have done in my campaign, where Thrommel was rescued. Took practically no work to implement it, and the net result was that you get a few extra Braveheart speeches from a notable leader, but not much else. Laughing Well, unless you want to make Thrommel's presence have a more notable effect, thus lessening the true threat of Iuz really, in which case you need to do some real revision work.
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sat Nov 30, 2013 8:44 am  

    Given the way Greyhawk lore was hidden in modules in the Gygax era (heck, I played and owned ToEE yet I completely forgot Thrommel was in the module) I suspect this is just a case of the forgets. Sargent & the others just forgot about Thrommel being in the ToEE.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    From: Denton, Tx

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    Sat Nov 30, 2013 11:16 am  

    I seem to remember in one of the Q&As Gygax did on EnWorld and other sites, he stated that in his home campaign Thrommel was never found.
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