(Directing you to the link to both save typing and to keep this thread from getting derailed.
I'm considerate like that. )
Unrelated:
Ragnar,
This is for you -
- Ð _________________ Quoted material has been reproduced in this post without express permission for the purposes of discussion, comment and review as permitted by Section 107 of the U.S. Copyright Act of 1976.
No one's mentioned them yet, but I accept the three most despised GH modules ever made (at least in part). I intend to use the background for Child's Play for my "Perrenlander mercs in the Horned Society" scenario (the corrupt burgomeister is in on it). I intend to use Puppets (only turning the halfling party met along the way into gnomes, who are more common in those parts). In canon, Larissa Hunter becomes Magister of Dyvers. This would allow the PCs to have known her "back in the day." I'll also use Gargoyle, down to the ice cream parlor...
But Elves conquering Lendore? Too much!
I still have catching up to do...
You took the words out of my mouth. I was going to list CHild's Play and Puppets as the most often ignored canon, along with WG7 Castle Greyhawk (I have Gargoyle, but other than a cursory examination, haven't paid much attention to it). Child's Play is especially horrific.
The reason it sat in Rel Astra is because Drax, being evil, really didn't know what to do with it.
Sure, there's an explanation, but explanations are cheap and no amount of lawyering can make terrible storytelling good. Maybe the Crook was lost on another plane, or on the bottom of the sea, or swapped with a counterfeit, or carried away by a deva, or maybe it spoke with a resonant voice and forbade anyone to wield it until the predestined time arrived. I can come up with explanations all day, but however you dress it up, a turd is a turd...
...I just don't get that excited about it. I save my fury for genocidal Lendoran elves... ;)
rasgon wrote:
...Hate the overbearing darkness and monolithic evils of the From the Ashes era and long for the Gygaxian era with its greater flexibility? Fine, relaunch the setting in 576 CY. Or push back the tide of darkness in a way that gives PC groups something fun to do....
-I don't have to relaunch. I'm just been plodding along... ;)
rasgon wrote:
...You're the best judge of what's appropriate for your own game, but from the point of view of a game designer it's important to at least write in the possibility of a group of PCs accomplishing the most interesting and campaign-shaking heroic tasks, and to write in interesting ways that they could make this happen...
-I doubt that I'd ever have a 20th level PC, but there are ways that lower-level types to contribute. Something to consider if I ever get to CY 586!
OK....I have to throw in my thoughts, especially as someone coming in late to Greyhawk and trying to figure out all the little details. I've played Greyhawk as a player through a number of campaigns. I've got a good idea of the overall game world (for the most part), but there is a lot of lore I don't know about.
I'm sick of things getting reboots and changing it! I'm tired of trying to figure out what happened. I never went through Temple of Elemental Evil. Do I look at that one? Or the Return to? How do I know which? What about all the others? Which is the best option? Against the Giants? Or Return to AGainst the Giants? Or any of the other ones? AAAaaaagggghhhhh!!!!!
Also, if I want to figure out some of the main plots, where do I go to find out what is what? There seems to be so many different versions of the same story that it's hard to figure out what the overall plot arcs of some things are. What are Iuz's major plots since 570 onwards? Where can I go to find out?
I don't understand what the Scarlet Brotherhood does before the Greyhawk Wars. What do they do? Anything? They live in shadows....doing what? I know they take over in the east, but I'm more a west coast guy. Do they do much there? I'm not really sure. Do they do things before the Greyhawk Wars? Are they even a known thing?
EDIT: As someone who has come late and not read the actual Vaten modules, I would say that him pretending to be Vaten totally makes sense. The guy was a cambian born in a minor hold. He's been utterly ambitious and created an empire in the north and is even a demi-god. He's clawed his way to power trying to suck off everyone else's power as he goes. It totally fits into what I've come to expect from him.
I'd have to go with Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. There was no Elder Elemental God? It was really Tharizdun all the time? Bah....
-I don't have that module, but I noticed the EEG thing on the Living Greyhawk list of deities. I'm leaving that one aside, along with Shikenester, the triple personality Naga deity...
GreyhawkGrognard wrote:
...It got so many things wrong, both gross and small (the "Eye" was the symbol of the EEG, not the name!)...
-Now there, the two are not mutually exclusive. "The Eye" would be a good nickname for the organization.
vestcoat wrote:
Osmund-Davizid wrote:
So for my bit, the FoI test and plague is the most unloved canon for me.
The Istus plotline and "test" is crap, but the Red Death is a juicy nugget...
-I use the scenarios individually, and FOI as a sourcebook. The Red Plague is one of the explanations of how Prince Zeech's father died in the Age of Wyrms adventure path, IIRC.
CruelSummerLord wrote:
-Anything and everything to do with Murlynd, Expedition To The Barrier Peaks, and all the other high-tech garbage...
-I have no beef with Expedition. The tech (brought in by beings who apparently flew in threw some sort of dimensional gate) doesn't bother me. In flavor, the goodies are just weird magic items, so no game balance issue.
CruelSummerLord wrote:
...I consider Oerth to have largely reached its technological peak milennia ago, where it has remained ever since...
-I work on the CY 576 = AD 1444 theory, with every two years of Oerth time equating to one year of Earth technology, roughly.
Two big exceptions:
1) No gunpowder (outside of that brought in by gated outsiders of one sort or another);
2) The Four Humors Theory is replaced by a somewhat better underatnding of pathology and medicine. The is partly to avoid having the PCs being the smartest people on Oerth, and partly because I think that the people of Oerth could find out the facts:
Cleric of Delleb, using a Commune spell: "Hey, that Four Humors things, what do you think of it?"
Delleb: "It's a crock. You'll be better off with basicv sanitation."
Cleric of Delleb: "Good to know."
CruelSummerLord wrote:
...Steam engines do not function, nor do gunpowder or electricity, and while oil and gasoline work very nicely to burn trolls, they do not combust the way they do in the real world. Man will never learn to fly without magic, he will never develop transportation that doesn't rely on outside animals for help, he will never develop firearms...
-I figure they will, it'll just take a lot longer.
CruelSummerLord wrote:
...Related to that, Oerth's magic will not fade away...
-I don't see any need for magic to fade either, but if it did, even the elf PCs will be dead by then!
CruelSummerLord wrote:
...Finally, as I've alluded to many times I am not very fond of the Greyhawk Wars as they are written...
-Join the club!
CruelSummerLord wrote:
... I thought that so many great adventuring areas were utterly destroyed...
-I don't know about "adventuring areas" being destroyed, but potential bases like the Sea Princes, Sterich, Geoff, the Shield Lands, Tenh, Almor, Onwall, Idee, and the Lordship of the Isles got whacked; you could argue that they became new adventuring areas, but I didn't really like it. Most of them are back and running by CY 598, but I'm still not fond of it. But I'll accept it, if the players fail to stop it.
CruelSummerLord wrote:
... it's difficult for me to see how most adventures could take place in areas totally dominated by entities like Iuz or the Scarlet Brotherhood (in the case of the Scarlet Brotherhood, the fact that they choose who breeds with who always gave me the impression that everyone who was not a Suel was enslaved and their movements tightly controlled, which makes me wonder how a dwarf or elf PC could come into these lands without being immediately thrown in chains.)...
-Fair point. There are some places where Iuz's or the SB's hold is sort of weak, but it does make it harder to use some of the old places as a base, particularly for low-level types.
Then there's Lendore Isle. Restenford and Lake Farmin, shot to Hades. By elves...
CruelSummerLord wrote:
... I dislike the depiction of the Flan as generally backwards, lazy and arrogant (since the Flan are based on American Indians/First Nations peoples, the unfortunate implications put a sour taste in my mouth)...
-Meh.
CruelSummerLord wrote:
...as previously alluded, almost every single plot seemed to go back to the same old villains (Iuz, the Scarlet Brotherhood, Iggwilv or Turrosh Mak)...
-You forgot Vecna and Tharizdun!
ragnar wrote:
Turrosh Mak actually being Theg Narlot, the overthrown Slavelord. I actually went through a lot IMCs to make Turrosh Mak something more... Come on, everyone knows it was Markessa who was the cool Slaver! Theg Narlot was weak. What they did was to put lipstick on a pig.
-Meh. In retrospect, you have a point, but I'll accept it. It would be easier for a half-orc to lead the humanoids of the Pomarj than Markessa. No magic or make-up needed!
DrassustheGaunt wrote:
vestcoat wrote:
...IMC, the Red Death is an all-natural, but much-dreaded plague that swept through the Flanaess in the mid third century CY and again in 577-581...
Really like that. Makes for a lot a great campaign possibilities and puts Incabulos in a spotlight he's normally denied...
-Vestcoat did write "all-natural," but Incabulous is actually reasonable. In fact, if you're going to pin it on a deity, Incabulous makes the most sense. I might use that, except I think that the Red Death scenario in Rookroost is meant to be set in the Fall of CY 576. That's when I'll have it. I figure that by the time it's finished, the PCs will have just enough time to make it to Alhaster in plenty of time for slight change in regime...
I never went through Temple of Elemental Evil. Do I look at that one? Or the Return to? How do I know which? What about all the others? Which is the best option? Against the Giants? Or Return to AGainst the Giants? Or any of the other ones?
Start with the original modules; they're still canon. The "Return to" modules are sequels, not reboots.
Quote:
What are Iuz's major plots since 570 onwards? Where can I go to find out?
The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer has a good summary. Or the wiki.
Quote:
I don't understand what the Scarlet Brotherhood does before the Greyhawk Wars. What do they do? Anything? They live in shadows....doing what?
Ruling their own little corner of the Flanaess and sending out agents to work their way into the confidence of other governments.
Quote:
I know they take over in the east, but I'm more a west coast guy. Do they do much there?
During the Wars they take over the Hold of the Sea Princes.
Quote:
Do they do things before the Greyhawk Wars? Are they even a known thing?
If you're looking for pre-Wars information, the original World of Greyhawk Folio or World of Greyhawk boxed set are the best. Here's what the boxed set said about what was known about the Scarlet Brotherhood prior to the Wars:
"It is said that an order of monastic religious militarists was founded long ago on the remote plateau south of the closed city of Kro Terlep. This order is purported to espouse the cause of the Suloise as the rightful rulers of all the Flanaess, claiming superiority of that race above all others, and embracing evil as the only hope of achieving its ends. Supposedly the Scarlet Brotherhood is the fruition of these aims, and it now controls the whole of the land from the Vast Swamp to the tip of the peninsula. Brothers of the Scarlet Sign are reportedly hiding as trusted advisors or henchmen in many courts and castles in the north, spying for their master and ready to strike."
If the bloat of Greyhawk canon in the last few decades seems overwhelming to you, starting with the World of Greyhawk boxed set set in 576 CY and using the original 1st edition modules might be your best bet. Introduce only the elements you like and feel confident you understand. Advance the timeline in a way that makes sense in your campaign without worrying about what TSR or Wizards of the Coast did. Build your world around your players' interests and actions, not the strategies of game designers and corporate bureaucrats who don't game with you.
Turrosh Mak actually being Theg Narlot, the overthrown Slavelord. I actually went through a lot IMCs to make Turrosh Mak something more... Come on, everyone knows it was Markessa who was the cool Slaver! Theg Narlot was weak. What they did was to put lipstick on a pig.
-Meh. In retrospect, you have a point, but I'll accept it. It would be easier for a half-orc to lead the humanoids of the Pomarj than Markessa. No magic or make-up needed!
Here's my thought: Markessa as the brains behind the operation. She would be quite aware that being an elf, she'd never be able to lead the humanoids of the Pomarj. So, she finds Theg, and sets him up as figurehead. As for Ragnar (rather than James, as this post said before I made the correction) calling Theg weak, perhaps she found some spell that was able to compensate for these weaknesses.
Considering her ability to make all those duplicates of herself, "putting lipstick on a pig" should be child's play for her. I would also think she has contingency plans already in the works. She will live a lot longer than any half orc, and would be thinking about potential replacements all the time. Even if Theg/Turrosh doesn't get himself killed, eventually, old age will take care of that, and Markessa will need to find someone else to "fit the suit". She'd be smart enough to be out there "taking measurements" to that end.
Last edited by BlueWitch on Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer has a good summary. Or the wiki.
This helps a lot, actually. It still seems that there is more missing. Maybe it's all the movements of the Circle of Eight and the rest. Thanks!
rasgon wrote:
If the bloat of Greyhawk canon in the last few decades seems overwhelming to you, starting with the World of Greyhawk boxed set set in 576 CY and using the original 1st edition modules might be your best bet. Introduce only the elements you like and feel confident you understand. Advance the timeline in a way that makes sense in your campaign without worrying about what TSR or Wizards of the Coast did. Build your world around your players' interests and actions, not the strategies of game designers and corporate bureaucrats who don't game with you.
Yeah, that's what I was going for. I've got the boxed set somewhere and should really dig it out for review, but that's basically my understanding of Greyhawk (with some LG stuff thrown in). I guess I need to go and review the products that came out in chronological order to really get a grip.
Turrosh Mak actually being Theg Narlot, the overthrown Slavelord. I actually went through a lot IMCs to make Turrosh Mak something more... Come on, everyone knows it was Markessa who was the cool Slaver! Theg Narlot was weak. What they did was to put lipstick on a pig.
-Meh. In retrospect, you have a point, but I'll accept it. It would be easier for a half-orc to lead the humanoids of the Pomarj than Markessa. No magic or make-up needed!
Here's my thought: Markessa as the brains behind the operation. She would be quite aware that being an elf, she'd never be able to lead the humanoids of the Pomarj. So, she finds Theg, and sets him up as figurehead. As for James calling Theg weak, perhaps she found some spell that was able to compensate for these weaknesses.
Considering her ability to make all those duplicates of herself, "putting lipstick on a pig" should be child's play for her. I would also think she has contingency plans already in the works. She will live a lot longer than any half orc, and would be thinking about potential replacements all the time. Even if Theg/Turrosh doesn't get himself killed, eventually, old age will take care of that, and Markessa will need to find someone else to "fit the suit". She'd be smart enough to be out there "taking measurements" to that end.
wow, just saw all this. That's a very cool way to put Markessa into the mix. Funny, but IMC she became the big villain for a few years.
(Directing you to the link to both save typing and to keep this thread from getting derailed.
I'm considerate like that. )...
-From what i can tell, you don't dislike having the Drow as the masterminds, you just prefer Mind Flayers. I'll stick with the original (as I do, all other things being equal), but your alternative is reasonable. Of course, after the original Drow plot was defeated ca. 576 CY, the Ulitharid may have decided to do a copycat!
BlueWitch wrote:
...As for James calling Theg weak...
-Actually, that was Ragnar responding to my post...
BlueWitch wrote:
...Here's my thought: Markessa as the brains behind the operation. She would be quite aware that being an elf, she'd never be able to lead the humanoids of the Pomarj. So, she finds Theg, and sets him up as figurehead...
-Again, I have no problem with Theg being Turosh Mak, but I'd say that's actually a fairly small modification to canon, at least from a meddling adventurer's point-of-view. And since Slaver's is still far in the future in my campaign, it could actually turn out that way IMC, epending on who survives the original defeat of the Slaver organization (asuming that they are defeated).
As an alternative, I was looking through my old stuff and found Citadel by the Sea (Dragon #78). Maybe Serga Ulmus/Sethus Maximus' mission to find Alkarg was successful! FWIW.
-Actually, that was Ragnar responding to my post...
OK, my error. Looking back to my post, I see where I make the mistake. I've gone back and fixed that as best as I could.
jamesdglick wrote:
BlueWitch wrote:
...Here's my thought: Markessa as the brains behind the operation. She would be quite aware that being an elf, she'd never be able to lead the humanoids of the Pomarj. So, she finds Theg, and sets him up as figurehead...
-Again, I have no problem with Theg being Turosh Mak, but I'd say that's actually a fairly small modification to canon, at least from a meddling adventurer's point-of-view. And since Slaver's is still far in the future in my campaign, it could actually turn out that way IMC, depending on who survives the original defeat of the Slaver organization (assuming that they are defeated).
As an alternative, I was looking through my old stuff and found Citadel by the Sea (Dragon #78). Maybe Serga Ulmus/Sethus Maximus' mission to find Alkarg was successful! FWIW.
Ah, Citadel by the Sea. Been some time since I've looked through that one, but as I recall, it would fit wonderfully into the Pomarj.
I wanted to use Citadel by the Sea as well. It fit perfectly! However, the way things ended up working was just as good. In my recent campaign, after the PCs freed Turrosh Mak from the dungeons of the Slavers, they did check on him once. They scried him and saw him standing atop a bloody ridge, surveying a great battle between various humanoids. So, they were aware of his success in battle, but not what would be the result.
I think they have since read some GH history and learned of the Orcish Empire, because they've thrown some comments around here and there about going down there to kill him. I keep reminding them that they have no reason to think to do that, at least their characters don't. Perhaps they will someday, but that day is not today.... :)
My own pet peeve is the Flight of Fiends, which seems too easy a way of neutering Iuz as a villain... Obviously I don't like how Iuz was treated in Die Vecna Die! either...Anyone else doing is makes him less scary as a villain and therefore makes the PCs' deeds less impressive.
This. Whether you love, hate or are indifferent to the GH Wars, it established Iuz as the major villain in GH. Since then he has been the go-to whipping boy - from the Flight of Fiends to Vecna to a similacrum of Iggwilv, no less. Instead of capitalizing on his potential as a truly formidable bad guy, he is portrayed as a bungling idiot. What a waste.
Expedition to Castle Greyhawk can be added to my list of most unloved canon.
...which I find tempting--it being only late 577 CY IMC--I have plenty of time to decide, or perhaps the PCs themselves can change "history."
What over parts of canon do some of you loathe enough to ignore or at least drastically modify?
I very much disliked the Moon-loving elves taking over the Spindrifts.
At first.
Now, looking back on it years later, I see great opportunities for a campaign in which the heroes battle the elf invaders.
And that doesn't just have to be humans versus elves. It can be more complex. Who says all the native elves in the Lendore Isles agreed to the invasion?
And what about half-elves?
I was on Greytawk a while back, chatting with Gary Holian and some of the other guys. I pointed out that reading the takeover straight makes the Sehanine worshippers sound distinctly not Chaotic Good.
These religious fanatics invaded the country of a distant and unoffending people and gave the native (human) population just three days to clear out! Except the ones who were allowed to remain as servants.
Now, this invasion and conquest were not carried out the way a truly evil power like Iuz or the Horned Society would have done things, but three days for men, women, and children to gather their belongings and depart the only home they've ever known?
Or maybe bend the knee, beg to remain as servants and hope the new masters will allow that much?
Surely people fought back. And the invaders must have killed some of them to take over the islands. They must have herded refugees onto overcrowded ships and sent them off under threat of attack.
I like the idea that the default/overall alignment of the invading faction/sect is CN, not CG.
...I very much disliked the Moon-loving elves taking over the Spindrifts.
At first...
I like the idea that the default/overall alignment of the invading faction/sect is CN, not CG.
-But one of the more interesting facets of the invasion is that it allows the possibility of a Good vs. Good battle (or at least Non-Evil vs. Non-Evil), of which there are all too few:
Other post-Greyhawk baddie vs. baddie faultlines...
OTOH, there's the far more rarely seen "good guys vs. good guys" scenario...
...calling Lanthorn!
Hmmm ...maybe the CN followers instigated it, but the CG elves back them up to try to make the best of it?
CombatMedic wrote:
...Surely people fought back. And the invaders must have killed some of them to take over the islands. They must have herded refugees onto overcrowded ships and sent them off under threat of attack...
-Somewhere, I think I linked to an interview with someone that hinted at that, but the search function is on the fritz... :(
"...Secure for the time being in their aerial refuge, the main occupation of the exiles now dwelling in the City of Glass is their resistance to the elven domination of Lendore Isle. Lendore has revealed several lost secrets to the resistance fighters, one of the most important being the location and operation of strategic teleportals throughout the island. With this knowledge, agents of Lendore are able to travel swiftly between various sites on or near the island surface, though they must take the utmost care not to reveal the locations of these portals to the elves. The resistance has even managed to capture some important elven leaders, but have not yet made any progress in dispelling the mists of Sehanine..."
...or maybe this was it, not an interview... I seem to remember seeing Len Lakofka's comments some where (not complimentary, IIRC! ).
...It's not a matter of technology, but here's a notable canonical retcon:
The Scarlet Brotherhood in Fate of Istus differs in a number of important respects from the versions presented in the Scarlet Brotherhood sourcebook.
-I think most people ignore the Orientals Turned The Scarlet Brotherhood On To Kung Fu part, either cutting it out entirely as unneccessary tot he wider scenario, or assuming that the SB was already headed that way, and the visitors merly gave them a boost (my assumption).
You also notice that half-even fighter-clerics are barely to be seen in the Pale. Or half-elves PERIOD, FWIW.
...It's not a matter of technology, but here's a notable canonical retcon:
The Scarlet Brotherhood in Fate of Istus differs in a number of important respects from the versions presented in the Scarlet Brotherhood sourcebook.
-I think most people ignore the Orientals Turned The Scarlet Brotherhood On To Kung Fu part, either cutting it out entirely as unneccessary tot he wider scenario, or assuming that the SB was already headed that way, and the visitors merly gave them a boost (my assumption).
You also notice that half-even fighter-clerics are barely to be seen in the Pale. Or half-elves PERIOD, FWIW.
LLG notes that 1% of the Pale's population are elves, and 1% 'other."
It says in the text that a few families, mainly in the south, include half-elves.
The 1983 Guide says demihumans= some.
'Some', in the Guide, means not more than about 10% of the human population. As 'few' means not more than 5%, I'm reading the suggested (but vague, undefined) demihuman population of the Pale as most likely being between 5% and 10% of human population.
LGG Pale seems to be more human dominated. 96% humans. 2% halfings, 1% elves, 1% other. That's only 4% demihuman (assuming the others are demihumans).
Maybe that was a deliberate change from earlier canon, a retcon.
Or maybe it reflects growth in human population? Human poulations in general went way up in later canon (I'm not arguing against that, as they were very small in the 1983 box-- although I note that lawless men, tribal people, independent villages, wilderness folk, and such weren't counted-- so it may be that Gygax was describing a world with an indeterminate but implied to be large number of people not owing fealty or paying taxes to any of the established states. Indeed, it seems to me he left plenty of room for adding pocket kingdoms, petty baronies, free cities, and so on onto those whopping big maps)
The editors of the LGG did a lot of rejiggering of demihuman populations to reflect 3rd edition norms. The idea was that, as the core world, Greyhawk should look like the assumptions in the 3e DMG.
The editors of the LGG did a lot of rejiggering of demihuman populations to reflect 3rd edition norms. The idea was that, as the core world, Greyhawk should look like the assumptions in the 3e DMG.
That makes sense.
jamesdglick wrote:
CombatMedic wrote:
...Or maybe it reflects growth in human population? ...Elves emigrating?
-I Fate of Istus, half-elven fighter/clerics were the mainstay of the Pale's security apparatus. All of a sudden they're leaving?
I like the idea of faster growth in the human population better; it might have been augmented by immigration from the Tenh.
That also makes sense.
The oddity of having so many half-elf fighter clerics in state service suggests a breeding program, or a sort of devshirme for half-elf children, or something like that.
Unless, of course, half-elves are simply common in the Pale (ignoring the later canon and reading the "some" demihumans of earlier canon as being mostly elves and half-breeds.)
The editors of the LGG did a lot of rejiggering of demihuman populations to reflect 3rd edition norms. The idea was that, as the core world, Greyhawk should look like the assumptions in the 3e DMG.
-Yeah, I faulty premise, I'd argue. I noticed that in Ratik, dwarves and gnomes both used to be well over 5% of the population, with fewer elves, and halflings barely mentioned. In the LGG, guess what? Blah. I assume that a lot of halflings immigrated from Bone March and North Province.
CombatMedic wrote:
...The oddity of having so many half-elf fighter clerics in state service suggests a breeding program, or a sort of devshirme for half-elf children, or something like that...
-The "in game" reason would probably be that half-elves are naturally attracted to the "adventureous" lifestyle of a templar sort. I suspect that the real reason was that the author wanted to give the Pale the Lawful Neutral equivalent of paladins, but that multi-classing (dual classing) was difficult for humans, but easy for half-elves. Game mechanics!
I can't find the thread right now, but there was a discussion regarding the search for the 5 Swords of vatun and the beginning of the Greyhawk Wars, so I reread "Howl From the North" and found some problematic stuff:
p. 15: I can't imagine an experienced Ratikker scout being such a 5-star wuss!
I'll dropp him to Rgr1, and made him a provincial scout (probably Devonmeek). Or maybe he's just pretending to be scared?
p. 15: Ratik has plans to invade the Frost Barbarians, Stonefist, and to outright conquer North Province?!
Maybe Lexnol's dementia started a few years earlier than anyone realized...
Now, you could interpret this as Iuzian disinformation that the barbarians have recieved in order to make them more willing to turn back on their alliance with Ratik...
p. 16: Kelten has refugees from Stonefist?
Maybe they mean from the remainder of Stonefist? Or was there a successful rebellion in Kelten that I missed?
p 31: Theocratic troops attacked a caravan in Stonefist?
Did I miss a pass going from the Theocracy to Stonefist? Or did the Theocrat's patrol somehow sneak through Thhnnese territory? Or maybe it was an Iuzian hired force (or some other group) posing as Theocratic troops?
p. 38: Are the converging troops reversed? Of course, you could have guys returning to their own territory intercepting the party.
37-38: Hundreds of men, non less than 7th level? Really? 3rd level is pushing it.
I'd assume that the highest level guys are 7th level, going down to a majority of 1st level types.
One thing about the scenario is that if the PCs fail, they could theoretically prevent the (oft-despised) Greyhawk Wars. But if Iuz's ploy fails, and can't imaginje he'd just go back to Dorakaa and spend the rest of the year learning macrame.
I never liked swapping Heironeous' chosen weapon from axe to sword. Our priest still wears chain mail and wields an axe - optimisers be damned.
I agree that Markessa is the brains behind the slavers. Turrosh Mak need not even be the same person from one encounter to another given her ability to physically alter and brainwash her subjects. Magic won't detect any subterfuge and Mak becomes eternal.
I felt bad about every Flan nation being overrun. Felt a bit racist! I also get annoyed when ethnic deities are portrayed primarily as Caucasian. The silliest portrayal was Resbin Dren Emondav in Dungeon - a stern, matronly, dark-skinned woman (most likely from Zahindi) portrayed as a 20-something blonde.
I have generally adopted plot elements to fit our own timeline so my PCs played Isle of the Ape before the Flight of Fiends and the year is currently 588 CY and they are just doing the Frost Giant Jarl. Tweaks are easy.
I never liked swapping Heironeous' chosen weapon from axe to sword...
-IIRC, Heironeon clerics and paladins use either. I have no problem with it.
PaulN6 wrote:
...I agree that Markessa is the brains behind the slavers...
-I have no problem with that, but I don't consider it to be a real change from canon, if at all.
PaulN6 wrote:
...I felt bad about every Flan nation being overrun...
...that is sort of odd...
PaulN6 wrote:
...I also get annoyed when ethnic deities are portrayed primarily as Caucasian...
...or Norebo, a Suel deity, is portrayed with straight, dark hair. He could be an oddity, but still. Most of Suel deities aren't portrayed as having the curly or kinky hair typical of their followers, except for Wee Jas, and you could argue that she's portrayed with wavy hair.
PaulN6 wrote:
...The silliest portrayal was Resbin Dren Emondav in Dungeon - a stern, matronly, dark-skinned woman (most likely from Zahindi) portrayed as a 20-something blonde...
-That's a good example of the artist not readng the description carefully. I thought that the hair color might be a [dye] job, but she is described as having black hair.
As for her apparent age, that's alwasy a judgment call, since some people look a lot younger than they really are.
I will say that if her body is described as "stout" (or something like that), it is not apparent from her head and shoulders image, although I have seen the combination of a pretty face, a swan neck, and a portly body.
As for Zahind, though, I assume that's just the rumor mill.
Under "languages", she is not shown knowing Zahindi (or whatever), but she does know Olman (I assume that Olman is not the Zahindi mother tongue). She's probably from Xamaclan, since it's one of the few Olman states that isn't bat$4!^ insane. Perhaps she traveled to Zahind at one point?
Last edited by jamesdglick on Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:11 am; edited 1 time in total
...The silliest portrayal was Resbin Dren Emondav in Dungeon - a stern, matronly, dark-skinned woman (most likely from Zahindi) portrayed as a 20-something blonde...
-That's a good example of the artist not reaidng the description carefully. I thought that the hair color might be a bleach job, but she is described as having black hair.
As for her apparent age, that's alwasy a judgment call, since some people look a lot younger than they really are.
I will say that if her body is described as "stout" (or soemthing like that), it is not apparent from her head and shoulders image, although I have seen the combination of a pretty face, a swan neck, and a portly body.
As for Zahind, though, I assume that's just the rumor mill.
Under "languages", she is not shown knowing Zahindi (or whatever), but she does know Olman (I assum that Olman is not the Zahindi mother tongue). She's probably from Xamaclan, since it's one of the few Olman states that isn't bat$4!^ insane. Perhaps she traveled to Zahind at one point?
IMC I went with this and said she was from a noble house in Sasserine, and was a mix of Suloise, Flan, and Olman. The image I used for her was one of Rosario Dawson from Alexander. I figured someone with African, European and Native American ancestry would work pretty well, and the players didn't mind fawning over a patron who looked like Rosario Dawson. Keep in mind though that the campaign was taking place in 580 CY, so Resbin was about 10 years younger than as portrayed in "Shadows Over Istivin."
I completely forgot this longstanding beef I have with with canon:
Way back when (1986 or so), I didn't get the Merrika thing in Orlane (other than Merrika = America, get it?), but based on her apparent alignment (NG) and her portfolio (agriculture), I decided that Merrika might be the local name for Berei. Of course, "THEY" came along and made Merrika a separate deity, who for some reason was LG, even though all her worshippers in Orlane seem to have been NG. Whatever. I decided that Merrika does exist, but the goddess of Orlane is Berei.
So there.
smillan_31 wrote:
...IMC I went with this and said she was from a noble house in Sasserine, and was a mix of Suloise, Flan, and Olman...
-That could work, too. Being from Sessarine would fulfill her description as being from afar, and would explain her Olman linguisitc abilities.
smillan_31 wrote:
...the players didn't mind fawning over a patron who looked like Rosario Dawson. Keep in mind though that the campaign was taking place in 580 CY, so Resbin was about 10 years younger than as portrayed in "Shadows Over Istivin."
-Hmmm... as a Marichoness, I'm not sure she needed good looks to have underlings fawn over her, although I guess it wouldn't hurt.
I assume that your scenario was unrelated to "Shadows over Istivin" and not just a back-dating?
...the players didn't mind fawning over a patron who looked like Rosario Dawson. Keep in mind though that the campaign was taking place in 580 CY, so Resbin was about 10 years younger than as portrayed in "Shadows Over Istivin."
-Hmmm... as a Marichoness, I'm not sure she needed good looks to have underlings fawn over her, although I guess it wouldn't hurt.
I assume that your scenario was unrelated to "Shadows over Istivin" and not just a back-dating?
No, It did not hurt at all.
You are correct in that it was unrelated to SoI. The reworking of the Giants series for the GDQ supermodule was something I never cared for, especially the black sphere around Istivin. I still had Querchard disappeared, although it was in battle against the frost giants. In my reboot, in 576 they went for the military option instead of the commando raid, had wiped out the hill giants and were moving on to the frost giants but Querchard's army was ambushed and he was either taken alive or killed. No one knew for sure. The campaign went from local concerns to the party coming into Resbin's service as she tried to hold the country together for her son until he could become marquess. It got seriously political, but petered out before I could take it where I wanted it to go.
...The campaign went from local concerns to the party coming into Resbin's service as she tried to hold the country together for her son until he could become marquess...
-Anything in canon about a child? It wouldn't be surprising, but I don't ever remember seeing it mentioned.
...The campaign went from local concerns to the party coming into Resbin's service as she tried to hold the country together for her son until he could become marquess...
-Anything in canon about a child? It wouldn't be surprising, but I don't ever remember seeing it mentioned.
I searched the canon sources pretty extensively and didn't find anything, although I can't speak 100% for LG. I am pretty familiar with a lot of LG Keoland sources and didn't find anything. Sterich never got its own triad, so I think any adventures taking place there were part of LG Keoland.
I just kind of extrapolated it from canon. Officially, Sterich's nobility was chafing under the rule of Resbin, so it makes sense to me the only way they would have tolerated a foreign wife ruling at all was if she was doing so for a minor heir. Otherwise there would be some cousin or uncle in the wings who would be pushing the Lion Throne heavily to appoint them.
Even in my campaign, that's kind of what happened. A group of recent immigrants from southern Keoland -- ambitious second sons and such, being manipulated into rebellion against Resbin by a Pyremius-worshiping faction of the SB formed a coalition with a traditionalist faction headed by the heir's uncle, and staged a coup to overthrow Resbin.
For some reason, I thought I recalled Sterich being dealt with by the Geoff or Yeomanry Triads. Also was a Core area. You might want to check those regions' adventure blurbs. I found a Core mod from year 8 though.
COR8-04 Bridge over Svartjet by Jeff A. Dobberpuhl
Deep below the western mountains ancient evils once defeated stir from the pyre of their defeat. A one-round core adventure set in the Kingdom of Sterich for characters level 7-15 (APLs 8-14).
For some reason, I thought I recalled Sterich being dealt with by the Geoff or Yeomanry Triads. Also was a Core area. You might want to check those regions' adventure blurbs. I found a Core mod from year 8 though.
COR8-04 Bridge over Svartjet by Jeff A. Dobberpuhl
Deep below the western mountains ancient evils once defeated stir from the pyre of their defeat. A one-round core adventure set in the Kingdom of Sterich for characters level 7-15 (APLs 8-14).
Dragon #298 actually talks about that module. Apparently it was part of The Gloom and Disunion Cycle, which began with COR2-04 Birthday Bash and continued with COR2-05 Beyond the Veil. The article describes a rise in vigilantism against people suspected (usually baselessly) of connections to the drow following a discovery of a dark elf enclave beneath Istivin (Marchioness Emondav described the phenomenon as "understandable but unfortunate"); I'm not sure if that's actually part of the plot of the Gloom and Disunion Cycle or just a plot the Living Greyhawk Journal suggested to connect with those modules in home games.
Well, I thought this thread was going to be rotten, and rife with annoying complaining and whining ... but, it's been *SO* informative about stuff I didn't even know! I've learned a lot from reading tonight!!
One of my personal pet peeves (in fantasy or literature in general) has always "Places From Which No One Ever Returns". It's a trope, and an old one ... but, it's always difficult for me to stretch my suspension of disbelief for those.
So, in Rauxes it stands that "... the city itself was ...engulfed in a strange magical field. Few willingly approach Rauxes now, given the bizarre eldritch forces that prevail where the ruined city stands" I was really put off. And that "... The final fate of ... Rauxes’s citizens remains unknown." Don't adventurers make their living by going where, and doing things, others don't? There's no hints about what's there? No one's tried? Not even a clue?
Also, as an artist, I agree with [I forgot who said it] about the depiction of Mordenkainen looking like Anton LaVey, in later works showing Mordenkainen. I don't mind so much that he shaved his head (because I once went with a shaven pate for quite a few years) ... but, his beard, moustache and whatnot should have a very distinctive style, and I don't think that the founder of the Church of Satan is the look we're going for.
I like Mordenkainen's squared-off beard and a more full, longer, slightly curved moustache. I'd buy it, if it looked something a little more like this:
Adapted From Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure, Clyde Caldwell _________________ Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com<div>Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal</div><div>Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com</div>
Don't adventurers make their living by going where, and doing things, others don't? There's no hints about what's there? No one's tried? Not even a clue?
Ah, but your adventurers will be the ones to do it, because the others, you see...
"They tried and failed, all of them?"
"Oh, no. They tried and died."
Somebody has to be the first. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
That's sort of the thing we were talking about earlier in this thread, and to some extent in this thread: how do you strike a balance between making the PCs the star of the show and still have the world grow and change around them?
How many people make use of NPC parties as rivals of the PCs? Do they ever have to race an NPC party to their goal, or underbid them with prospective employers?
An interesting note for those who mentioned upthread that they dislike the fact that the primary weapon of Heironeous was "changed" in 3rd Edition from an Axe to a Longsword:
Well, I thought this thread was going to be rotten, and rife with annoying complaining and whining ... but, it's been *SO* informative about stuff I didn't even know! I've learned a lot from reading tonight!!
-I guess it all depends on how you complain and whine...
Icarus wrote:
So, in Rauxes it stands that "... the city itself was ...engulfed in a strange magical field. Few willingly approach Rauxes now, given the bizarre eldritch forces that prevail where the ruined city stands" I was really put off. And that "... The final fate of ... Rauxes’s citizens remains unknown." Don't adventurers make their living by going where, and doing things, others don't? There's no hints about what's there? No one's tried? Not even a clue? ...
-I work under the theory that "with magic, all things are possible," but I suspect it's some kind of cop-out. IIRC, the Living Greyhawk Campaign had the entire County of Urnst surrounded by an impenetrable bubble for a year (to simulate problems with the triad?). I'm sure that someone will have more info' on it.
Cebrion wrote:
...Somebody has to be the first.
-That too.
rasgon wrote:
...how do you strike a balance between making the PCs the star of the show and still have the world grow and change around them?
-The PCs have to solve the following adventures, in a satisfactory fashion, before the end of 581 CY. Otherwise the future (according to canon) is changed in some way or fashion.
FWIW:
1) Adventures around Saltmarsh;
2) Gargoyle problem around Rockburgh (yes, I intend to use it);
3) The pretender Tollenkar in the Stark Mounds (a Steve Jackson game that I've converted);
4) The Reptile Cult in Orlane and the Rushmoors (they've really screwed this one up, so far);
5) The drought on the Downs;
6) The Keep on the Borderlands and the surrounding area, including the Caves of Chaos (which I set at the confluence on the Jewel and Handmaiden rovers);
7) Hommlet and the Moathouse;
8) The caravan going from Narwell to Dyvers (yes, I'm going to use Puppets. If nothing else, Larissa Hunter is canonically destined to become Magister of Dyvers. If she doesn't make it, who knows what happens?)
9) Roghan and Zelligar's Dungeon Lair (which I set in Kalmar Pass).
There are plenty of other adventures, but most of them don't have the "big picture" consequences that these might have. Example: L1, L2, and the adventure in "Dungeon" magazine (71?), which are completely nullified by the Sehanine conquerst and ethnic cleasing of Lendore Isle.
I generally assume that most higher-level canonical events occur without the PCs. If the PCs participate somehow, then they could change canon.
Icarus wrote:
...Also, as an artist, I agree with [I forgot who said it] about the depiction of Mordenkainen looking like Anton LaVey, in later works showing Mordenkainen...
-I think that was just about everybody, including me. Someone else pointed out they both look a little like your icon photo. Hmmm...
Icarus wrote:
...I don't mind so much that he shaved his head (because I once went with a shaven pate for quite a few years) ...
-Maybe Mordenkainen is going bald? I've always sworn that if I start going bald that I'll just do the Mr. Clean look instead of trying to do a comb over.
Icarus wrote:
...I like Mordenkainen's squared-off beard and a more full, longer, slightly curved moustache. I'd buy it, if it looked something a little more like this:
Adapted From Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure, Clyde Caldwell
... -I think that was just about everybody, including me. Someone else pointed out they both look a little like your icon photo. Hmmm...
Icarus wrote:
...I don't mind so much that he shaved his head (because I once went with a shaven pate for quite a few years) ...
Hahaha! You know ... I think that I remember when someone made that comment way back when. I think that my profile pic may've been a little different back then, actually showing me with a bald head. instead of just a beard and hair like it is now. :)
I would link a picture of it, but, you know, I don't want to derail the thread any more! LOL!
"...if you're not too particular about editions, WOTC released a 3E web enhancement called The Hand of the Highwayman in 2001. It's a short adventure set on Lendore Isle, intended to supplement the Song and Silence splatbook..."
... An 11 page web enhancement for WoTC's 3.0 "Song and Silence", by David Noonan, John D. Rateliff, and Penny Williams, titled "The Hand of the Highwayman."
...which I looked at last night.
Now, it just so happens that my biggest beef with Greyhawk canon is the Elvish invasion of Lendore Island, even to the point of flat out ignoring it (see the very beginning of this thread, plus link). But in my never-ending mission of turning lemons into lemonade...
I seem to remember a mention of Restenford in either D&D 3.5 PHB II or DMG II (which I was too lazy to look up). It sounded more like a major town or city rather than "our" Restenford, so I ignored it. But this:
...Hypothesis: the town's population grew with human refugees cast out from elsewhere after the elves took over.
...could make sense of Restenford's population, except that when I read first read the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer several years ago, I saw that the remaining human population for Lendore was something like "1%" or so, with only farmers, fishermen, and servants being allowed to stay, which to my mind, rules out Restenford, or at least most of it (too many humans in Restenford, particularly since I doubt it's the only remaining human settlement; most not the right type to stay). This pretty well wipes out anything of long-term value occuring in Restenford. Poor L1, L2, and "Priestly Secrets"!
But there is an out. ALL of the various gazeteers note that they don't detail every single independent community e.g., Dullstrand, Garel Enkdal. So what if Restenford became an independent community after the Elvish invasion? I'm not sure why Restenford would have been excepted, but I'll leave that for later. This allows Restenford to survive as we know it, and even grow a bit, all without contradicting any canon (although why Restenford isn't mentioned at all in relation to Lendore Island is something of a mystery... ).
A few minor points about "Hand of the Highwayman":
1) The Sehanine must have really devolved to hire that pair of dirtbags, but could that be explained as the agents "going rogue (so to speak)," using unapproved methods? I imagine the Sehanine might be tough-minded, but murdering innocent people seems a bit over the top. IRL, that would constitute grounds for war. Of course, the elves might assume they'd win, and would consider it a plus, but killing innocent people seems a bit much for predominately CG types. maybe teh elves don't consider the victims "innocent" for some reason?
2) Restenford never seemed to be the sewer having sort of place. But maybe they did, but they were filled in to eliminate hiding places for the once flourishing Restenford Thieve's Guild? Something like this briefly hinted at in once case in "HH", although by its absence. Maybe the rest of the work was done in previous years? Maybe they unfilled them due to the increase in population? Or constructed more?
As a side-line, I once started off a pair of PCs with a treasure map of the secret complex under the guardhouse under the theory that it used to belong to a now defunct Thieve's Guild...
3) Most of the change in places and NPCs could be explained by the march of time. Pelltar could be the "court wizard" mentioned in "HH". There could be more inns, or perhaps some of the old ones are now under new management, with new names? Villie Starsen either died or moved on, replaced by a new Captain? According to "HH", Andrella now has at least 195 guards at her disposal (1 x CPT; 8 x SGTSs, 186 x Gds)! Restenford most have grown? Or is the money to maintain all these guys coming from elsewhere?
Anyway, if I can make this work, the invasion is back on!
Dungeon Magazine # 30 in "Ghazal" has a LE Cleric of Lllerg?! You could make arguments for Wee Jas or Syrul based on alignment, but I think Bralm (N (LN) ) is the best fit considering the environment.
But Llerg?! And if Llerg, the Ghazal should be predominately CE... Sheesh.
The elves consider the takeover of the Islands an unfortunate necessity, but only a temporary disruption. They'll give them back in a couple hundred years or so.
...While it was unintentional on the part of the original author (Douglas Niles), the plot of Against the Cult of the Reptile God works really well with the idea that the local goddess was missing because she spent decades imprisoned beneath Castle Greyhawk...
-I won't argue that it doesn't fit, but assuming that Merikka was the local name for either Atroa or Berei made a far better fit for the faith described in Orlane, and would have been more consistent than conjuring up a new deity to explain a name that is obviously just a play on 'Merica.
On top of that, it's odd that "they" made Merikka LG even though the uncorrupted inhabitants of Orlane were described as entirely NG. If they wanted to go the Whole New Deity route, then they should have given Merikka an orientation that was more aggie and made her NG in alignment. It's as if "they" saw the name of a new deity, decided they had to to make it fit in, and then ignored all the other information from the same source that introduced the name in the first place. Not as if not bothering to actually read the source material is uncommon with some Greyhawk canon...
The "they" in this case is Erik Mona. The genesis of Merikka's appearance in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer is an ancient post that originally appeared on AOL or Usenet or Greytalk in the mid-1990s, "The Ultimate, Definitive Listing of Iuz's Fellow Prisoners."
In short, the problem was there were nine demigods imprisoned beneath Castle Greyhawk, but the list of deities in the boxed set only includes five: Iuz, Rudd, Wastri, Zagyg, and Zuoken. Of those, Zagyg obviously wasn't his own prisoner, so that leaves only four canonical demigods out of nine. Where, then, to find the others? Mona's solution was to comb old modules, filling out the list with entities from Tamoachan and Cult of the Reptile God.
In that post, Mona explained that he changed Merikka's alignment from chaotic to lawful good "to reflect the much more lawful aspect of agriculture."
(For what it's worth I think filling out the list of demigods with Olman deities is a terrible idea, but Merikka and Alia absolutely belong there)
(I think the Olman gods are bad candidates because they have too little influence over the Flanaess and most of them are established in Deities & Demigods and Legends & Lore as not being demigods—Tlazolteotl is chaotic evil and Xilonen, as another name for Centeotl, is chaotic neutral; only Chitza-Atlan is a reasonable choice and he's not nearly as interesting or relevant as Vecna, whose history in Die Vecna Die! practically mandates that he escaped with the others in CY 571)
(And yes, I'm aware that the actual prisoners in Gary Gygax's original Greyhawk campaign were Celestian, Erythnul, Heironeous, Hextor, Iuz, Obad-hai, Olidammara, Ralishaz, and Trithereon, though I think in the published Greyhawk setting the impact of those major deities disappearing for decades would result in a history very different from what we have, so I'd rather keep to demigods)
(For what it's worth, my list is Merikka, Stillsong, Ye'Cind, Rudd, Iuz, Vecna, Wastri, Alia, and Zuoken)
(There are lots of examples in Greyhawk of multiple deities sharing the essentially the same portfolio; if Obad-hai and Phyton or Jascar and Ulaa can exist on the same planet, Merikka and Berei can comfortably share the world as well)
The controversy of the Nine and their ongoing canon/fanon treatment is a pet peeve for me. We've had decades of endless theories and lists of potential prisoners only because obstinate Greyhawkers demand a strict interpretation of "Nine Demigods" while holding a double standard and ignoring the fact that Iuz wasn't even divine when Zagyg imprisoned him (WGR5 p3).
Meanwhile, the gods used by the actual creators are written off on a technicality because publication bumped them to lesser gods (and Sargent bumped the lesser gods he chose to write about to intermediate status due of space constraints). And so, even though Olidammara is plainly listed as a former prisoner of Zagyg in the '83 box, fans discount him and create more needless backstory to justify a separate imprisonment. Eight demigods and a cambion are kosher, but seven demigods, a cambion, and a lesser god? That's crazy.
Today, the publisher (TSR) is ancient history, Gygax and Kuntz have long since answered the question and even published the original works, but fans continue to hold out because they feel some ridiculous loyalty to a faceless, multinational IP holder that's reduced their official D&D staff to twelve people and hasn't supported the setting in ten years.
In 2007, fans were given the choice between Kuntz's Bottle City and Ha$bro's disaster that sucked Castle Greyhawk off the face of Oerth and turned Mordenkainen into Anton Lavey... fans chose the latter. Shame.
/rant
Solution: use the Nine from the original campaign.
Their priests struggled along with 2nd-level spells for a few decades (it's amazing how much respect you can get with Cure Light Wounds and Hold Person!). Gods themselves aren't too active on Oerth, so they weren't missed. Priests of Heironeous, Hextor, Erythnul, and Trithereon leaned heavily on their martial training and developed their weapon skills into what they are today. The Shalm's rustics either took up with Beory for a while or lost their place in the druidic hierarchy. Turmoil among the philosophers, drunks, and madmen that follower of Celestian, Olidammara, Ralishaz was beyond the ken of most folk.
We know the Nine were freed at different times (Iuz was loosed in 570 while Zouken was still imprisoned as of 597CY), so rule that gods with important temporal leaders like Heironeous, Hextor, and Obad-Hai were imprisoned later and got out early, like 540-550CY. If the DM feels the freedom of a couple particular god-lings is absolutely mission critical in the early sixth century CY, substitute them with Merrika and Stern Alia. Maybe Heironeous and Hextor escaped Zagyg's clutches at the last moment by summoning weaker gods in their stead.
Explain the term "demigods" is an approximation. When it comes to quantifying the divinity of superpowers on the outer planes, mortals suck. To further muddy the water, Castle Greyhawk did strange things to its prisoners: Iuz went from cambion to a demigod and Olidammara from a demi- to a lesser god in a turtle shell!
(Rasgon - don't take any of the above personally; you're great. I'm venting at no one in particular while we're on the subject of the Nine and unloved canon.)
ignoring the fact that Iuz wasn't even divine when Zagyg imprisoned him (WGR5 p3).
Heh. That's kind of a pet peeve of mine, too. Iuz was absolutely divine when he was imprisoned. It would have been overkill for four quasi-deities, Zagyg, and a lesser deity to join up to imprison an entity that wasn't even divine. Especially considering the idea that the powers of good had to give the powers of evil a free future intervention in the world of mortals in exchange for allowing St. Cuthbert to intervene directly with the matter of Iuz. It wouldn't be worth it.
However, while I assume that "demigod" means demigod in all cases, I don't think it's necessary a problem to assume it means "eight demigods and a near-divine cambion who became a demigod by the time he was freed." The choice to use a list of nine demigods rather than a demigod and an assortment of lesser deities isn't just semantic, anyway. It's not just that the lesser gods named by Gygax and Kuntz aren't literal demigods, but that their disappearance should have a significant impact on the setting.
One thing that bugs me about applying the Gygax campaign list to the published Greyhawk is that it makes Zagyg MUCH, MUCH more powerful. How does a human spellcaster, albeit with the help of Kelanen and Boccob, capture freaking Obad-Hai?
Gary's Greyhawk is not the published Greyhawk. If it was, we'd have Odin running around, portals to Mars, and the "logo" of the Circle of Eight would be an eightball. Gary was clowning around with his buddies, and even he changed certain details before publishing the setting. Why some people want to slavishly stick to what he did in his "rough draft" campaign puzzles me. Not even he bothered to do that.
You can quibble with some of that (for example, Gygax said the imprisonment of at least some of those deities was voluntary), but I agree with the essence.
Vestcoat wrote:
And so, even though Olidammara is plainly listed as a former prisoner of Zagyg in the '83 box, fans discount him and create more needless backstory to justify a separate imprisonment.
I think justifying the imprisonment of entities like Hextor and Heironeous for close to seven decades requires more needless backstory than accepting "Olidammara tried to rescue Rudd" does.
In the original Lake Geneva campaign, none of the players knew who Hextor and company were and they had no established ties to the setting. There's no reason, in that context, not to accept that a mad demigod imprisoned a number of forgotten deities.
In the published setting, we have things like Hextor being the primary patron of House Naelax and Heironeous being one of the top gods in Nyrond, Furyondy, and the Shield Lands. There's a huge difference in tone between "nine forgotten gods you've never heard of were imprisoned here" and "the patrons of mighty nations were silent for three generations," so much so that I think keeping them as actual demigods is closer to the spirit of the original campaign than the actual original deities would be.
A big thing with me is that I think that if a god disappears for seven decades, there needs to be consequences to the campaign world. Otherwise, why bother? If the god of stars, space, and wanderers is silent for the better part of a century, how does that change the setting? Was there a period when navigators fear the deep waters and hug the shores because they know they can't count on blessings from the god of stars? One could assume that revels and celebrations invoking the god of wine and revelry are a major part of the lives of the common folk; what happens when the sacred stills run dry? Tim Powers' novel The Drawing of the Dark might inspire some ideas.
If the turmoil among the priests of the missing gods is simply written off as "beyond the ken of most folk" it seems to me to be a huge waste of storytelling potential.
To some degree this is subjective; yeah, you could write rationalizations that explain how the Church of Hextor managed to hold itself together during those years, and some of those rationalizations could make for interesting plot hooks (for example, maybe Hextor's clerics turned to archdevils as substitute patrons). But it's a lot of unnecessary backstory that alters the setting as it exists a lot more than accepting the list of lesser demigods does.
Quote:
because they feel some ridiculous loyalty to a faceless, multinational IP holder that's reduced their official D&D staff to twelve people and hasn't supported the setting in ten years.
I don't feel any particular loyalty to Hasbro, but Hasbro didn't make the decision to identify any of the imprisoned demigods; that decision was made by the Greyhawk fans who have been having fun arguing about this for decades for what they, and I, considered to be sensible reasons.
...There are lots of examples in Greyhawk of multiple deities sharing the essentially the same portfolio; if Obad-hai and Phyton or Jascar and Ulaa can exist on the same planet, Merikka and Berei can comfortably share the world as well...
-I never had a problem with that.
rasgon wrote:
...There are lots of examples of gods having worshipers a step or more removed from their own alignments (nearly all gods permit this). Merikka's lawfulness manifests itself as an obsession with timeliness more than ethics. Especially considering that the folk of Orlane haven't benefited from their goddess's direct guidance for generations, I don't consider it to be an issue that their ethical world view doesn't mesh with hers exactly...
-I didn't say they couldn't. But in those cases, you'd normally see a range of alignments surrounding the deities alignment, not a 100% shift to the side. It's obvious that both the creation of Merikka (Murrica!) was a contrived case shoehorning, as you yourself point out, here:
...I'm aware that the actual prisoners in Gary Gygax's original Greyhawk campaign were Celestian, Erythnul, Heironeous, Hextor, Iuz, Obad-hai, Olidammara, Ralishaz, and Trithereon, though I think in the published Greyhawk setting the impact of those major deities disappearing for decades would result in a history very different from what we have, so I'd rather keep to demigods...
...and...
rasgon wrote:
...A big thing with me is that I think that if a god disappears for seven decades, there needs to be consequences to the campaign world...
-There's nothing that says that their imprisonment couldn't be such that it had a serious impact on their clerics in the same way that specifics of Vatun's imprisonment had on his clerics. And even Vatun's clerics aren't exactly helpless. And then there's the precedent of Tharizdun...
...and I like this:
vestcoat wrote:
...We know the Nine were freed at different times (Iuz was loosed in 570 while Zouken was still imprisoned as of 597CY), so rule that gods with important temporal leaders like Heironeous, Hextor, and Obad-Hai were imprisoned later and got out early, like 540-550CY...
vestcoat wrote:
...even though Olidammara is plainly listed as a former prisoner of Zagyg in the '83 box, fans discount him and create more needless backstory to justify a separate imprisonment...
-Good point. If you accept the Mona's version, then it does become necessary. It would have been easier to just accept the previous canon.
Or, maybe Olidammara et al were all demigods at the time, eh?
...or maybe Hextor and Heironeous et al busted out of jail the same week? Iuz, being a mere hero-deity or demigod without the support of a more powerful deity (as Rudd may have had from Norebo, if you accept Dragon #Twohundredandwhatever), had a rougher time.
vestcoat wrote:
...The controversy of the Nine and their ongoing canon/fanon treatment is a pet peeve for me. We've had decades of endless theories and lists of potential prisoners only because obstinate Greyhawkers demand a strict interpretation of "Nine Demigods" while holding a double standard and ignoring the fact that Iuz wasn't even divine when Zagyg imprisoned him...
-At the risk of coming off a contradictory, I get the argument that it would have been a little easier for Iuz to imprison nine demigods instead of nine more powerful deities. But I'm not sure that it's enough to overturn established canon.
rasgon wrote:
...Mona's solution was to comb old modules, filling out the list with entities from Tamoachan and Cult of the Reptile God...
-IOW, Mona was shoveling (and excreting) crap in a bag because he thought it sort of fit. Let's just call it a lame Bridge Too Far.
vestcoat wrote:
...In 2007, fans were given the choice between Kuntz's Bottle City and Ha$bro's disaster that sucked Castle Greyhawk off the face of Oerth...
-Uh, I have no idea what you're talking about. Clearly I missed something...
rasgon wrote:
...(Rasgon - don't take any of the above personally; you're great. I'm venting at no one in particular while we're on the subject of the Nine and unloved canon.)
-Rasgon should take my arguments personally. Duel at 11!
And FWIW, I like what Mona has done for GH overall.
But in those cases, you'd normally see a range of alignments surrounding the deities alignment, not a 100% shift to the side.
If their only ethical influence was the teachings of their single deity and all other things being equal, then yes, you'd expect to see the variation be pretty random. I'd question those assumptions, though. For one thing, the difference you see is in the original module (which had Merikka as chaotic good and the villagers as "generally neutral good"), so the problem isn't someone not reading the module carefully. So clearly there's something else going on. I don't think you need to look into it very deeply: the community has a set of secular values that average out to neutral good, and their religious faith doesn't have much to do with that. It only sounds weird if you assume that their alignment is a random corruption of their goddess's alignment, which isn't the case. They're neutral good because they're a neutral good people, and they worship their goddess because she's the local goddess of agriculture.
Also note that "generally neutral good" isn't the same thing as 100% neutral good.
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Merikka (Murrica!)
This isn't even the worst pun among Greyhawk god names, if it's even intended as one. If I wrote (Armadillo!) every time I referred to Olidammara or (Ouija board!) every time I referred to Wee Jas, it would get old quickly.
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was a contrived case shoehorning, as you yourself point out
I guess the difference is that I don't see anything wrong with that. I think it's interesting to look at the reasons the goddess was included and why her alignment was changed, but it's less contrived than trying to force the original Lake Geneva Castle Greyhawk prisoners into the modern setting.
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There's nothing that says that their imprisonment couldn't be such that it had a serious impact on their clerics in the same way that specifics of Vatun's imprisonment had on his clerics.
There's nothing that says that you can't do it that way, but it'd involve a pretty elaborate rewrite of the world's history. I don't want to discourage anyone from doing it that way if that's what they prefer, but I'd encourage people to generate real stakes and consequences from the decades-long disappearance of some of the setting's most iconic deities. I mean, yeah, you can just handwave it as "no one cared that Ralishaz disappeared; there's a reason they call him the Unlooked For" but I think it's more interesting and rewarding to consider some unintended consequences when the god of misfortune and madness disappears. What if they were doing something useful, like keeping an ancient hero or artifact of Law secure, and their absence upset the balance? Why introduce a plot element like the imprisonment of a deity if it's not going to matter? If it matters, how does it matter? Just saying "there's nothing that says it didn't matter" isn't really the same as generating useful ideas.
I'm not arguing that it's impossible to have a good version of Greyhawk that uses the original Lake Geneva prisoners. I'm just saying it would be very different from the Greyhawk I know.
Quote:
And even Vatun's clerics aren't exactly helpless.
The imprisonment of Vatun resulted in the collapse of the Suel barbarian empire. Whether his few remaining clerics are helpless in a fight isn't really what I'm worried about. Vatun's imprisonment had consequences for the setting.
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And then there's the precedent of Tharizdun...
Well, exactly. Tharizdun's priesthood died out.
From WG4:
The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun wrote:
In the end only a handful of faithful clerics remained to repeat the daily ritual of attempted awakening. Some of this handful were slain by monsters, others eventually grew old and died. The last High Priest, alone, wandered off into the place reserved for his remains in the dungeon, for alone he was unable to take his proper place in the Undertemple. Thus, a century ago, the last servant of Tharizdun died, and the Temple was without inhabitant of human sort.
Yes, there were later revivals of the faith, or the faith survived in pockets elsewhere, but Tharizdun's imprisonment matters. Before the Dark God was imprisoned there was a real threat that Tharizdun might destroy the universe. With their patron imprisoned, his powers are limited and his faith largely reduced to a secretive cult. That's the sort of thing I expect when any god is imprisoned.
So I'm not satisfied with ideas like "the clerics of Heironeous learned to fight better to compensate for only having second level spells." I want to see abandoned temples of Heironeous scattered throughout the lands, desperate clerics of the Invincible One turning to other gods, the rise of the Horned Society a direct result of the loss of clerical support in the Shield Lands, or the Pale managing to gain independence after the clerics of Pholtus triumphed over the demoralized Nyrondel clerics of Heironeous. I expect a rewrite of history.
It's a lot easier to come up with reasonable consequences for the loss of nine demigods, since with the exception of Iuz their imprisonment is unlikely to affect things on a large scale. But it should still affect things: the dominance of the reptile cult in Orlane, the hollowing out of Alia's church, the disappearance of Vecna's cult, Stillsong's elemental dissolution, Zuoken's faithful migrating to the central Flanaess, Wastri's temple in Blackmoor being taken over by St. Stephen, Olidammara getting caught while searching for Rudd, Ye'Cind not being able to depose the usurper king, etc.
vestcoat wrote:
...We know the Nine were freed at different times (Iuz was loosed in 570 while Zouken was still imprisoned as of 597CY), so rule that gods with important temporal leaders like Heironeous, Hextor, and Obad-Hai were imprisoned later and got out early, like 540-550CY...
See, I think that's precisely the opposite of what you should be ruling, because it's tantamount to coming up with excuses for why the disappearance of important deities doesn't affect the campaign world much. The disappearance of important deities should affect the campaign world.
jamesdglick wrote:
Or, maybe Olidammara et al were all demigods at the time, eh?
They represent fairly important facets of existence, and I don't think they can be reasonably interpreted as mere demigods (implying much smaller worshiper bases) without leaving pretty important holes in the World of Greyhawk pantheon. I can imagine them having dwindled to demigod status during their long imprisonment, though.
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But I'm not sure that it's enough to overturn established canon.
The idea that the original Lake Geneva campaign is "established canon" is strange to me. Nobody outside of the original players even knew about it until the late 1990s. If Gygax thought it was important information that Heironeous was imprisoned, he could have said so in the Dragon Magazine article that originally described Heironeous. The fact that he didn't suggests to me that he thought the details of his own campaign weren't necessarily part of the published setting, or weren't the general public's business to know. Regardless of how you feel about the evils of corporate America, canon had become established along very different lines before the internet began giving us hints of how things were in the 1970s.
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-IOW, Mona was shoveling (and excreting) crap in a bag because he thought it sort of fit.
What a lovely image.
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-Uh, I have no idea what you're talking about. Clearly I missed something...
The Original Bottle City was a module by Rob Kuntz detailing part of Castle Greyhawk. The demigod prison is there, so that module offers the more authentic original Greyhawk campaign experience.
The other reference is to Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk, which infamously ended with Castle Greyhawk becoming untethered from the Prime Material Plane. This was at WotC's insistence, who wanted to justify subsequent uses of the dungeon in other campaign settings, I guess. I'm not particularly worried about two easily ignorable sentences, personally, and if for some reason you wanted to have Castle Greyhawk wandering between planes of existence in your campaign, that adventure offers a justification.
I mean, there's no question which is more in line with the intentions of the setting's creator, and if that's important to you, Bottle City is definitely the way to go. There's a lot in Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk that I'm not fond of, for that matter. But I don't feel like it's necessary to frame the choice as a binary, where one is forced to accept either every part of Bottle City or every part of Expedition, unable to pick and choose from each.
But in those cases, you'd normally see a range of alignments surrounding the deities alignment, not a 100% shift to the side.
... (which had Merikka as chaotic good and the villagers as "generally neutral good")...
-Huh. I don't remember the part about her being CG. Maybe I didn't read carefully enough! I'll go back and check. But shifting Merikka to LG only makes Mona's little exercise worse, tho'.
rasgon wrote:
Quote:
Merikka (Murrica!)
...This isn't even the worst pun among Greyhawk god names, if it's even intended as one. If I wrote (Armadillo!) every time I referred to Olidammara or (Ouija board!) every time I referred to Wee Jas, it would get old quickly...
-Yeah. When you check the internet, the biggest beef that fans of other campaigns have with Greyhawk is the names. I have to concede their point.
rasgon wrote:
Quote:
there's nothing that says that their imprisonment couldn't be such that it had a serious impact on their clerics in the same way that specifics of Vatun's imprisonment had on his clerics.
There's nothing that says that you can't do it that way, but it'd involve a pretty elaborate rewrite of the world's history...
-I meant to add expound on this:
vestcoat wrote:
...We know the Nine were freed at different times (Iuz was loosed in 570 while Zouken was still imprisoned as of 597CY), so rule that gods with important temporal leaders like Heironeous, Hextor, and Obad-Hai were imprisoned later and got out early, like 540-550CY...
...with the observation that most of the deities could have made their jail break after a week.
Quote:
And even Vatun's clerics aren't exactly helpless.
The imprisonment of Vatun resulted in the collapse of the Suel barbarian empire...
Quote:
-I've always assumed that that referred to the Alledged Suel barbarian empire.
[quote="rasgon"]
Quote:
-IOW, Mona was shoveling (and excreting) crap in a bag because he thought it sort of fit.
What a lovely image...
Quote:
-Good. That means it worked.
[quote="rasgon"]...The other reference is to Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk, which infamously ended with Castle Greyhawk becoming untethered from the Prime Material Plane. This was at WotC's insistence, who wanted to justify subsequent uses of the dungeon in other campaign settings, I guess...
-
You know... I haven't bought any of the "Return to" modules yet, since we haven't fully completed any of the originals. Every once in a while, I read something about one of those things that makes me question whether I'd be better off just saving my money. This is one of them.
But I wasn't aware of the RJK effort, either. I might take a peek.
[quote="rasgon"]...The other reference is to Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk, which infamously ended with Castle Greyhawk becoming untethered from the Prime Material Plane. This was at WotC's insistence, who wanted to justify subsequent uses of the dungeon in other campaign settings, I guess...
-Awesome. Any chance that Waterdeep's Undermountain will be making an appearance in the Cairn Hills any time soon?
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