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    Canonfire :: View topic - Nalbon Gellor (Gordhawk)
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    Nalbon Gellor (Gordhawk)
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri Mar 04, 2016 1:33 pm  
    Nalbon Gellor (Gordhawk)

    My player has a PC who is a (very junior ranking-) intelligence operative of the Duke Nebon Gellor of Artonsamay, late in 576 CY. As part of the character creation process, we decided that at some point he had an "advanced" (top-notch) instructor (see D&D 3.0 Hero-Builder's Guide). I've decided that that instructor would be Nalbon Gellor, Gord's future mentor, the cousin of Countess Bellisica (Saga of Old City, p. 236), and, by extension, cousin of the Duke of Artonsamay (Living Greyhawk Gazeteer, p. 26). Nalbon obviously works in the Bandit Kingdoms (being a master thief in Stoink), and is an agent of the Countess of Urnst, the Duke of Urnst, the King of Nyrond, and Delleb only knows who else, so I think he's a good fit.

    When Nalbon Gellor met Gord ca. the Spring of 579, he was a high level bard, which in AD&D1 terms, would have made him at least a Ftr5/Thief 5/Brd1 (see Saga of Old City; in D&D 3.5, XPs for levels stack- see how the rulers in the LGG are modified, so he'd be at least Ftr5/Rog1/Brd1). His buddy, Curley Greenleaf, was a Drd10/Rgr8 (in D&D 3.5 terms, that would be something like a Drd 10/Rgr 2). They are near contemporaries (they started out serving in the Gamboge together), so in Spring 579, Gellor would probably have been at least a 10th level (D&D 3.5 terms), perhaps Ftr5/Rog3/Brd2, probably higher? Doing some reverse engineering, Nalbon Gellor might not have been a bard yet as of late 576 CY?

    I seriously doubt that our PC and Nalbon are going to be close adventuring buddies (our PC just made 2nd level), but some background would be nice if Nalbon checks in on his former student, in case they ever actually do some sort of mission together, and just to have a complete background in case any questions come up.

    I assume Nalbon's age was between his late 30s to his early 50s in 579. Since Nalbon Gellor is an obvious Mary Sue for EG Gygax, maybe he'd be 47 years of age? Making him 44 or 45 in late 576 CY?

    Is there any mention in later Gordhawk about how and when Nablon lost his eye in the first place? Maybe he lost it in an unfortunate training accident with our PC Wink Laughing. Is there anything else in later Gordhawk, or anywhere else, about Nablon Gellor and his background?
    GreySage

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    Fri Mar 04, 2016 3:08 pm  

    Jason Zavoda's Gellor citations. He seems to assume that Nebon and Nalbon Gellor are the same person.

    In D&D 3.5, Gellor would be a Fochlucan lyrist.

    Quote:

    Cyclops
    (See Gellor)

    Gellor (House of)[CLN]
    Atlas of the Flanaess - 42
    Living Greyhawk Gazetteer - 26,123
    World of Greyhawk Gazetteer- 18
    A Guide to the World of Greyhawk - 40

    Gellor, Nalbon {Nelbon}(Duke)[F9][#eF12][NPC]
    Artifact of Evil - 28,30,31,37-39,41,45-47,50,55,56,58-65,67,69,70,72,73,75-79,83,100-106,108-110,124-126,158-163,167-171,
    173-177,179-181,184,195,197-200,203-205,207,210,211,
    213-219,222-228,237-242,245,246,249-256,259-261,272,
    273,275,281,289-294,296,297,306,333-336,339,347-349
    Come Endless Darkness - 8,9,112,113,114,116,118,122,123,127,128,130,131,133,136
    139,165,166,167,174,176,177,178,186,187,188,194,201,202,
    203,204,205,206,207,209,211,212,213,214,216,217,218,219
    220,221,223,224,225,226,227,228,229,230,231,232,233
    234,236,250,251,274,275,276,277,278,279,280,281,282
    ,283,284,285,286,290,291,305,306,310,311,312,313,314
    322,323,345,346,347,348,349,350,351,352,353,354,359
    360,361,362,363,364,365,366,367,368,369,371,372,373
    375,376,377
    City of Hawks - 221,222,223,225,226,227,228,229,230,231,232,233,234
    235,236,237,238,350,355,356,357,359
    Dance of Demons - 9,11,18,22,23,24,25,26,27,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,38
    39,40,51,52,53,54,55,56,57,58,59,60,62,63,64,65,107,108
    109,110,111,114,117,118,119,120,121,122,124,126,127,128
    130,144,145,157,160,161,162,165,166,167,169,175,177,180
    181,182,188,191,202,203,204,205,210,211,212,213,216,217
    218,223,224,225,233,234,235,236,242,243,250,251,252,257
    258,259,260,261,265,267,268,269,271,272,273,277,278,279
    280,281,282,283,284,285,286,287,288,289,292,293,294,295
    297,298,299,311,320,321,322,324,325,326,327,328,329,330
    331,334,335,336,339,348,349,358,360,363,364,365,366,368
    373,379,380,381,382,383,384,385,386,387,388,389,397,402
    403,405,406,407,410,411,412,413,414,418,420,424,427
    DRG#56 - 21
    DRG#63 - 14
    Living Greyhawk Gazetteer - 26
    Saga of Old City - 144-161,164,166,170,171,198,223-226,228,229,232-245,248-254,257-260,275,276,278-284,289,350
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sat Mar 05, 2016 9:21 am  

    The BK Triad agreed with Jason that they are the same person and assumed the spelling difference was either a typo or a way of differentiating which version appeared in the Gord novels.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sat Mar 05, 2016 9:21 am  

    BTW, A bard's minimum stat's in AD&D1: 15 S, 15 D, 10 C, 12 I, 15 W, 15 Ch.

    rasgon wrote:
    In D&D 3.5, Gellor would be a Fochlucan lyrist...


    -I'd already considered that (Complete Adv., pp. 47-48) and rejected it pretty quickly for some reason. But taking a second look, I can't figure out what it my objection was at the time. The prestige class is clearly inspired by the original bard class. Maybe it was past my bedtime... Laughing It might have been that I thought it might be a good option for his future, but that it might make him too high a level for 576/577 (I'm still debating the details).

    rasgon wrote:
    Jason Zavoda's Gellor citations. He seems to assume that Nebon and Nalbon Gellor are the same person...


    EDIT: ...and
    aurdraco wrote:
    The BK Triad agreed with Jason that they are the same person and assumed the spelling difference was either a typo or a way of differentiating which version appeared in the Gord novels.


    -Hmmm... Gord meets Nalbon in Rookroost ca. Spring 579 and hangs out with him, off and on, through the Battle of Woodford in the Adri in the Fall of 579. They then spend a good chunk of the early 580s together in the western Flanaess. Now, I guess dukes can do what they want (in theory), but I find it hard to believe that someone wouldn't simply usurp him if he were gone that long (Artonsamay may be less cuttthroat than a lot of the BK, but it's still the BK). His cousin Karll had a reputation for being an absentee ruler, but that's because he was off in the Duchy of Urnst's borderlands (where he could at least be reached), not playing Secret Agent Man half way across the Flanaess.

    You could argue that Artifact of Evil diverges from canon in a few ways, but the difference in Nalbon's activities are a bit of a stretch (e.g., the details of the battle in which Patch & Ormuz bite the Vesve dust are different, but they still end up dead). Of course, if Duke Gellor was off in the western Flaneass when the B.K. was overrun, it might explain why Iuz never captured/killed him in what was clearly a nasty fight, but I still... and AFAIK, Saga of Old City doesn't diverge from canon at all.

    Another objection: Nebon is described as a 9th level fighter (Dragon #63, 14), not a bard. You could argue that Nalbon had 9 levels of fighter before becoming a thief, and then a bard (although I don't think that many levels in fighter was allowed before conversion to bard- 7th level was the max), but the timing is all wrong. The listing for Nebon in Dragon #63 is in the Spring of 579, by which time Nalbon is already a master thief, and probably a bard as well, although Gord didn't know about the bard part at the time. So Nebon would have had to have gained several levels in thief, and then become a bard, all in a few weeks [at most]? Sounds like a Monty Haul DM, to me. Laughing Arguing that it's a minor difference in terminology (a la Zeech's later conversion from Cleric/Fighter to Fallen Paladin/Blackguard) wouldn't cut it, either. A fallen paladin is a fighter, and converting a cleric into a blackguard is reasonable (and of course, this was done long after EG Gygax blew up his version of Oerth). Converting a pure fighter into a fighter/thief/bard is not. Besides, if EGG inteded Nebon to be a bard in Dragon #63, he could have simply written him up as one, as he did with Earl Reynard.

    Oh well.

    rasgon wrote:

    ...Come Endless Darkness - 8,9,112,113,114,116,118,122,123,127,128,130,131,133,136
    139,165,166,167,174,176,177,178,186,187,188,194,201,202,
    203,204,205,206,207,209,211,212,213,214,216,217,218,219
    220,221,223,224,225,226,227,228,229,230,231,232,233
    234,236,250,251,274,275,276,277,278,279,280,281,282
    ,283,284,285,286,290,291,305,306,310,311,312,313,314
    322,323,345,346,347,348,349,350,351,352,353,354,359
    360,361,362,363,364,365,366,367,368,369,371,372,373
    375,376,377
    City of Hawks - 221,222,223,225,226,227,228,229,230,231,232,233,234
    235,236,237,238,350,355,356,357,359
    Dance of Demons - 9,11,18,22,23,24,25,26,27,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,38
    39,40,51,52,53,54,55,56,57,58,59,60,62,63,64,65,107,108
    109,110,111,114,117,118,119,120,121,122,124,126,127,128
    130,144,145,157,160,161,162,165,166,167,169,175,177,180
    181,182,188,191,202,203,204,205,210,211,212,213,216,217
    218,223,224,225,233,234,235,236,242,243,250,251,252,257
    258,259,260,261,265,267,268,269,271,272,273,277,278,279
    280,281,282,283,284,285,286,287,288,289,292,293,294,295
    297,298,299,311,320,321,322,324,325,326,327,328,329,330
    331,334,335,336,339,348,349,358,360,363,364,365,366,368
    373,379,380,381,382,383,384,385,386,387,388,389,397,402
    403,405,406,407,410,411,412,413,414,418,420,424,427


    -I was hoping to avoid this, but it looks like I might have to invest in Come Endless Darkness, City of Hawks, and Dance of Demons. Hmmpf.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sun Mar 06, 2016 12:47 am  

    When they say Gellor is high level bard, they mean bard levels, not total character levels. In 1E terms he would be somewhere in the range of F 5-7/T 5-9/Bard 14+ (he certainly isn't a Bard 1 with practically no Bard training). Translating to 3E, you could cut those crazy levels down a bit to something like F2/T3/Dr2/Bd3+/FL6+ (the latter PrC as rasgon suggests), which is still nasty. Mind you, they guy wasn't exactly leveling up a whole lot before he went to face Gravestone and a couple demon lords. Gellor is at the least a very high level character when Gord meets him, and thereafter enters the realm of Epic character status. As to him being listed as a F 9, he could just be passing himself off as a simple Fighter, when in fact he is much more than that.

    Curly Greenleaf is likely behind Gellor in total 1E class levels, but he is able to cast Chariot of Sustarre, and so he's at least a 12th level Druid at that time, which would also make him about 11th level as a Ranger. You could make him a 3E Ranger 4/Druid 11, which gives access to the spells he uses in the books, while also retaining a moderate amount of Ranger capability. He can fight well enough, but he'd rather be using his druid magic, and this represents what he prefers to do strategy-wise in the books. I wouldn't say that he would have achieved Epic level character status at any point though. Though he guided the them, he always came off as being less than the others, except in the area of magic.
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Mon Mar 07, 2016 10:39 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    When they say Gellor is high level bard, they mean bard levels, not total character levels. In 1E terms he would be somewhere in the range of F 5-7/T 5-9/Bard 14+ (he certainly isn't a Bard 1 with practically no Bard training)...


    -I'll have to go back and check to see EGG's exact words on the issue, but Ftr5/Rog1/Brd1 was my minimum assessment for Nalbon for the Fall of 579; I'm open to a much higher level. However, I don't see much evidence for super-high levels: IIRC, Chert tells Gord that Nablon can sing nicely and play the harp, which doesn't exactly require astronomical levels in Bard. Therefore, backtracking to 576 or 577, he might not even have been a bard (or fochlucan lyrist) yet.

    Just trying to avoid the hazards of level inflation...Wink

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...Gellor is at the least a very high level character when Gord meets him...


    -No argument there. An AD&D1 bard was high level by definition. Of course, my standard for "high" level might be easier than yours... Wink As for the post-Artifact of Evil stuff, I'll have to actually buy it, first...Wink

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...Curly Greenleaf is likely behind Gellor in total 1E class levels, but he is able to cast Chariot of Sustarre, and so he's at least a 12th level Druid at that time, which would also make him about 11th level as a Ranger...


    -Ah. Good catch, although that was a little later, in AofE, IIRC. He probably gained a level or two after the Fall of 579, but that would could easily make him a 9th or 10th level Druid when he first meets Gord.

    What's your rationale for putting Curly behind Nalbon Gellor in levels instead of on par, or even ahead in 579? It makes sense that Curly may have fallen behind as time went on due to his occupation with what be called administative-diplomatic issues, but they seemed roughly on par at first. IIRC, Chert mentioned that Nalbon & Curly were both rookies in the Gamboge together. Of course, Chert wasn't there. I'll go back and check.

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...As to him being listed as a F 9, he could just be passing himself off as a simple Fighter, when in fact he is much more than that..


    -Sounds a little too subtle for EGGygax. Laughing

    aurdraco wrote:
    The BK Triad agreed with Jason that they are the same person and assumed the spelling difference was either a typo or a way of differentiating which version appeared in the Gord novels.


    -The Living Greyhawk Gazeteer puts the Duke at Ftr12 near the beginning of 591 (p. 26). No mention of Rogue levels, no Bard levels, no Fochlucan Lyrist. Maybe you BK guys forgot to read your own sourcebook? Wink Anyway, there's no way you can interpret Nalbon Gellor as anything other than as having a few levels in Rogue, at least, and even in Saga of Old City he's mentioned as being a Bard. Between the description of his abilities in Dragons #56 & 63, in the LGG, and EGG's description of his abilities and actions in SofOC and AofE, it's really straining to make Nalbon and the Duke the same guy. It's easier to just make them cousins. Hmmm...or maybe brothers? Maybe even twins?

    How about this: In 579, Nablon (Brd at large) is off playing Secret Agent Man and Diplomat without Portfolio while his cousin/brother/identical twin Nebon (Ftr9) is the Duke of Artonsamy. Nablon is still probably doing his thing in 591, while Nebon (now a Ftr12) is now dispossesed after the duchy has been overrun. Sometime soon after that, something happens to Duke Nebon, and Nablon takes his place, but for any number of reasons, under the pretence of still being Nebon? That would reconcile all the source material, and still support the BK Triad's interpretation.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Mon Mar 07, 2016 9:49 pm  

    jamesdglick wrote:
    aurdraco wrote:
    The BK Triad agreed with Jason that they are the same person and assumed the spelling difference was either a typo or a way of differentiating which version appeared in the Gord novels.


    -The Living Greyhawk Gazeteer puts the Duke at Ftr12 near the beginning of 591 (p. 26). No mention of Rogue levels, no Bard levels, no Fochlucan Lyrist. Maybe you BK guys forgot to read your own sourcebook? Wink Anyway, there's no way you can interpret Nalbon Gellor as anything other than as having a few levels in Rogue, at least, and even in Saga of Old City he's mentioned as being a Bard. Between the description of his abilities in Dragons #56 & 63, in the LGG, and EGG's description of his abilities and actions in SofOC and AofE, it's really straining to make Nalbon and the Duke the same guy. It's easier to just make them cousins. Hmmm...or maybe brothers? Maybe even twins?

    How about this: In 579, Nablon (Brd at large) is off playing Secret Agent Man and Diplomat without Portfolio while his cousin/brother/identical twin Nebon (Ftr9) is the Duke of Artonsamy. Nablon is still probably doing his thing in 591, while Nebon (now a Ftr12) is now dispossesed after the duchy has been overrun. Sometime soon after that, something happens to Duke Nebon, and Nablon takes his place, but for any number of reasons, under the pretence of still being Nebon? That would reconcile all the source material, and still support the BK Triad's interpretation.


    I can't recall exactly when all this came up, if it pre-dated me or not. Gellor wasn't even mentioned in LG BK until the later years, though. Looks like Duke Gellor was first mentioned in a LG BK mod during Year 7. That's VERY far into the campaign.

    I'm not saying you don't have a case that they are two separate characters, just that it doesn't matter since Gordhawk was not canon to Living Greyhawk. As a result, we would not have concerned ourselves with reconciling Gordhawk canon vs. LGG. (Well, Theo may have.)

    If we thought they were the same character, then we would have used our primary source, LGG, for his canon background and levels. If LGG didn't mention something, then we would look to Iuz the Evil and then to the old Dragon articles, The Fate of Istus, etc. For all I know, this is something Theo asked EGG about during an old chat as Theo talked to EGG pretty extensively about Stoink. From the LGG, "Rumored to have been ruled by a puissant noble adventurer of Urnstís Gellor dynasty," certainly sounds like Nalbon. Since LGG doesn't give the Duke a first name, it's likely LGG authors also thought Nebon vs. Nalbon was a typo or minor correction.

    However, looking at it now, it certainly is suspect as the Zavoda index has a typo and lists the alternate name of "Nelbon" when it was clearly "Nebon" in Dragon 56. I think your theory certainly is plausible and that we just assumed that the Zavoda index was correct in conflating the two despite the typo. As there are other typos in canon which had been confusing (Kor vs. Abbarra in D56), that's probably what was assumed to have happened re: Nebon vs. Nalbon. But yeah, the more I think about it, the less it makes sense that the actual duke, a straight-classed fighter, would have much to do with the Stoink Thieves Guild.

    HOWEVER, one last counter: IF there was only 1 character, Nalbon, and if he was a high level rogue/bard, then he certainly could have pretended to be a Nebon, a high-level fighter.

    I do like the idea of twins, would help explain the dumbass decision to give them names that are far too similar.
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    Tue Mar 08, 2016 8:10 am  

    jamesdglick wrote:
    Cebrion wrote:
    ...Gellor is at the least a very high level character when Gord meets him...


    -No argument there. An AD&D1 bard was high level by definition. Of course, my standard for "high" level might be easier than yours... Wink As for the post-Artifact of Evil stuff, I'll have to actually buy it, first...Wink

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...Curly Greenleaf is likely behind Gellor in total 1E class levels, but he is able to cast Chariot of Sustarre, and so he's at least a 12th level Druid at that time, which would also make him about 11th level as a Ranger...


    -Ah. Good catch, although that was a little later, in AofE, IIRC. He probably gained a level or two after the Fall of 579, but that would could easily make him a 9th or 10th level Druid when he first meets Gord.

    I think he is a Druid 10/Ranger 9 at the end of Saga of Old City.

    jamesdglick wrote:
    What's your rationale for putting Curley behind Nalbon Gellor in levels instead of on par, or even ahead in 579? It makes sense that Curley may have fallen behind as time went on due to his occupation with what be called administative-diplomatic issues, but they seemed roughly on par at first. IIRC, Chert mentioned that Nalbon & Curley were both rookies in the Gamboge together. Of course, Chert wasn't there. I'll go back and check.

    Gellor's status and abilities are downplayed for most of the series, but he is much more than he appears to be. The simple barbarian Chert is not exactly Columbo, so I wouldn't put much weight in what he says. As to the remark, it just means that Gellor and Curly are old friends. Chert doesn't know the extent of things though. Gellor is a long standing Agent of Balance, and there are only a very few individuals as skilled as he is. Curley really isn't one of them, but being a druid his word and position carry a lot of weight with Gellor, who defers to him. Curley is the Hand of the Heirophants, while Gellor is the Sword.

    You compare the capabilities of both individuals at various times, and you'll see Gellor doesn't just have many character levels- he has many BARD levels, and he doesn't gain them all in the last two books. As this is the case, his total character levels will have always been ahead of where Curley's would be at any given time. It is very likely that the two old friends didn't come into contact with one another until after Gellor became a bard and took tutelage among the Druidic circles, though he could have met Curley beforehand and was drawn into bardic training by Curley. Even then Curley would have been a low to middling level scrub at such a time, while Gellor would have already passed through his fighter levels and pretty much finished his advancement as a thief too, if that were the case (thus my assessment).

    Also, I consider 9th level to be high level (it is a point at which many enemies, and the characters themselves, gain access to various "save or die" attack forms), but these characters go far beyond that during the course of the series, and I don't mean at the end of the series either, where they are wiping out demons by the dozen with the plucking of a single chord or a single swing of a blade.
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    Thu Mar 10, 2016 6:03 pm  

    Just to stir the pot here, when comparing 1E characters, one must compare XP totals, not class levels. Curley Greenleaf as a Druid/Ranger 10/8 would have about 300,000 total XP. A bard with equal XP would be about 11th level, depending on how far he'd advanced as a fighter and thief. To further illustrate, here are both characters at various points in their respective careers; I'm assuming that Gellor reached maximum levels as fighter and thief:

    Code:
    XP TOTAL        CURLEY             GELLOR
          0     Druid/Ranger 1/1    Fighter 1
     10,003     Druid/Ranger 3/3    Fighter 4
     50,003     Druid/Ranger 6/5    Fighter 6
     70,003     Druid/Ranger 7/5    Fighter/Thief 7/1
     75,003     Druid/Ranger 7/5    Fighter/Thief 7/4
    100,003     Druid/Ranger 7/6    Fighter/Thief 7/6
    140,003     Druid/Ranger 8/6    Fighter/Thief/Bard 7/8/1
    150,003     Druid/Ranger 8/6    Fighter/Thief/Bard 7/8/4
    200,003     Druid/Ranger 9/7    Fighter/Thief/Bard 7/8/8
    250,003     Druid/Ranger 10/7   Fighter/Thief/Bard 7/8/10
    300,003     Druid/Ranger 10/8   Fighter/Thief/Bard 7/8/11


    Note the points where Gellor zips past Curley in level gains. In the time it takes Curley to advance from Ranger 5 to Ranger 6, Gellor goes from Thief 1 to Thief 6. In the time it takes Curley to advance from 8/6 to 10/8, Gellor goes from Bard 1 to Bard 11. Even assuming Gellor is around Bard 13, he'd have about 540,000 total XP. That total would put Curley at Druid/Ranger 11/9. They aren't so far apart in overall prowess.
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    Fri Mar 11, 2016 1:57 am  

    By Come Endless Darkness, Curley is a D13/R10-11, whereas Gellor is at a level on par with the most skilled of bards...*period*. As *the* most skilled of bards will be 23rd level, I think it is reasonable to say that one considered to be among the most skilled of bards will be level 20+. It is before Come Endless Darkness that Gellor gains the Kanteel. Here is a statement that is a bit more telling than Chert's comment about Gellor's bardic ability:

    "The fabled Rhymers of the Blackfens, those northern mages who with kanteel and verse wrought world-shaking dweomers, might exceed the troubador's own ability in magic. On the other hand, it was in that land of snow and ice that Gellor had won his own kanteel and brought back great spells for his own repertoire. Gord doubted that any of the great druidic bards would care to challenge the one-eyed troubador to a contest of skill in that vein. Perhaps Gellor was as great as any man or elf, then, when it came to the weaving of spells by music and verse."

    So, these powerful, specialized music mages can best Gellor at music magic, but he apparently either worked them over or impressed them enough for him to *win* [not find, but *WIN*] his very own fabled instrument from that land of fabled music mages, and Gord doubts that any of the 20+ level druidic bards (I'll give a 4 level spread to mean the "greatest" of them) would care to challenge Gellor (because he would OWN them), meaning Gellor is a certifiably high level bardic bad-arse. Mind you that Gellor has achieved this level of ability when Curley is "merely" an Archdruid, which would make Curley a D13/R10-11 (still powerful, but not anywhere near on par to a character ranging in level from F5+/T5+/B20+). That is how the levels work out...but both characters would actually have roughly the same total number of XP (more than 1,800,000), if one wants to use equivalency as the rod of comparison for the two.

    And so Gellor is not just a high level character, but a high level BARD, which makes him an *extremely* high level character. He really doesn't have much more, if any more, XP than Curley does. As I said, Gellor is very much downplayed throughout most of the series. It is only in the last two books that more is revealed about his true capabilities, and they are far beyond what is mentioned, or even hinted at, prior to the last two books. It just wouldn't do to have Gellor be able to use most of the magic Curley does, fight better than Curley does, have more esoteric knowledge than Curley does (plus everything else he can do that Curley can't) overshadowing Curley early on. Curley needs to have more than just being slightly better than Gellor at druidic magic and at being bald, so Gellor is purposely downplayed, such that Curley comes off as the leader of the earlier group.
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    Fri Mar 11, 2016 1:24 pm  

    aurdraco wrote:
    ... I'm not saying you don't have a case that they are two separate characters, just that it doesn't matter since Gordhawk was not canon to Living Greyhawk. As a result, we would not have concerned ourselves with reconciling Gordhawk canon vs. LGG. (Well, Theo may have.)...


    -I get that Saga of Old City wasn't canon for Living Greyhawk per se, but someone obviously cared enough about to considered them one and the same. But from your description, it doesn't sound like the Duke's stat's, nature, or background had any specific effect of the action, or was even mentioned in LG, so accepting my interpretattion at least wouldn't do any harm to it, which is my primary concern.

    aurdraco wrote:
    ... From the LGG, "Rumored to have been ruled by a puissant noble adventurer of Urnstís Gellor dynasty," certainly sounds like Nalbon...


    -It would fit. Fortunately, another comment in the LGG describes the House of Gellor as a family "dedicated to adventuring and military service" (or something like that). Duke Karll certainly fits that desription, too. Up until the 580s, overly so.

    aurdraco wrote:
    ... Since LGG doesn't give the Duke a first name, it's likely LGG authors also thought Nebon vs. Nalbon was a typo or minor correction...


    -To be honest, I assumed the same thing until I really looked into it.

    aurdraco wrote:
    ... I do like the idea of twins, would help explain the dumbass decision to give them names that are far too similar.


    -I'm sure that EGGygax gave it the same deep consideration that he gave to naming Zagig Yragerne, Tenser, or Yrag...

    Of course, just a little to the southwest of Artonsamay is a viscount with two sons, the older one named Zered, the younger named Zeech. Wink Maybe giving children alliterative names is a Central Flanaess thing?

    aurdraco wrote:
    ... I do like the idea of twins...


    -Hmmm... OTOH, If Nalbon looked exactly like Nebon, it would have tended to attract a lot of unwanted attention to a guy who does a lot of clandestine work. The Flanaess might not have photography, but pre-photo intelligence services were smart enough to keep descriptive dossiers on things like that, not to mention people who had seen the Duke in person or magical means. But if we assume that Nalbon was a slightly younger brother with a mild family resemblance, it would give him anonymity when he needed it, but a leg up if he needed to impersonate him. That, plus Nalbon's personal familiarity with his brother, his roguish (thiefly) skills at disguise and bluff, plus access to magic.

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...I think he is a Druid 10/Ranger 9 at the end of Saga of Old City...


    -Drd10/Rgr8 (p. 350)

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...It is before Come Endless Darkness that Gellor gains the Kanteel...


    -But that would be a while after Artifact of Evil, which probably occured in 583, long after 577. How many levels could he gain in 6 or more years?
    GreySage

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    Fri Mar 11, 2016 5:13 pm  

    Well, Heward is a 20th level bard, and it wouldn't be unreasonable to say that he's the most skilled bard currently extant (he doesn't have to be, but setting the quasi-deity of bards up as the best bard currently around sounds like a reasonable position to take). While the 1st edition Player's Handbook has rules for bards up to 23rd level, that doesn't mean that 23rd level bards actually currently exist on the world of Oerth. Perhaps that should be reserved for PCs to strive for as they rise to take their places among the greatest of heroes.

    I'm reminded of the discussion on the WotC boards a decade ago where some people were criticizing the official stats for demon lords for being so much weaker than a 60 HD advanced balor, while one of the Paizo staffers (James Jacobs, I think) replied that just because the rules allow for 60 HD advanced balors that doesn't mean they should actually exist in most campaigns.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Fri Mar 11, 2016 5:34 pm  

    See this thread for GtR timeline discussion, as it highlights particular dates that coincide with events in the books: http://www.canonfire.com/cf//modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=4270

    And no, I don't think Gellor went up 19+ bard levels in 6 years, as you would have him doing. It is reasonable for him to go up from 14-16th level to the astronomical level he ends at in that period of time. It takes a lot to adventuring to gain levels at that height of power. For comparison, it took our PCs 2 years of game time to go through all of GDQ, and the characters went from 9th-10th level to 12th-13th level. Six modules, with literally hundreds of higher XP things to deal with, netted 2.5-3 levels per character, and we not only pretty much gutted everything in the G123-D1 parts, but accomplished further craziness in the D2-Q parts, like wiping out three drow households, balors, marliths, many lesser demons, one greater and some lesser daemons, Lolth...

    ...and the characters got 2-3 levels. Gellor isn't doing such things, constantly, for a 6-year period. He is likely only doing the equivalent of that in all of the 6-year period, which isn't enough to bring him from a Bard 1 all the way up to Bard 20+, where he ends up.

    Sorry if Gellor having such a high bard level rubs you the wrong way, but that is what it should be. It is entirely reasonable to have Gellor with 14-16 bard levels when Gord meets him in 579. This still has Gellor gaining...wait for it... more than 1,000,000 XP in that six-year period. That makes for a lot of dead bad guys/goals accomplished in that amount of time.
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    Fri Mar 11, 2016 9:21 pm  

    jamesdglick wrote:
    Of course, just a little to the southwest of Artonsamay is a viscount with two sons, the older one named Zered, the younger named Zeech. Wink Maybe giving children alliterative names is a Central Flanaess thing?


    Yeah, we can blame Age of Worms for that one. At Britt's urging, I used the same name for Zeech's brother to give a nod to Age of Worms and to prevent confusion in the future (even though Age of Worms is not canon at all for Living Greyhawk).
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Tue Mar 29, 2016 12:03 pm  

    Cebrion wrote:
    See this thread for GtR timeline discussion, as it highlights particular dates that coincide with events in the books: http://www.canonfire.com/cf//modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=4270

    ...


    -It links to "Gord the Rogue Timeline" thread OK:

    ...but the source for that is dead, and I can't find anything on the net... Cry

    It looks like Sea of Death would be next in order? (Night Errant and City of Hawks overlap with Saga of Old City or covers the gap between SofOC and Artifact of Evil). I already have the Dragon issue where Gord plays dragonchess with the Cat Lord.

    Cebrion wrote:
    And no, I don't think Gellor went up 19+ bard levels in 6 years, as you would have him doing...


    -Granted. It takes a lot of treasure diamonds just to make 1,000,000 XPs from Brd14. Wink

    ...but Rasgon sort of touches on my point: And my six year calculation is a minumim for the period between early 577 (my timeline) and the end of AofE (mid-583?). CED would be two books after 583. Was the old boy really 20th level in Come Endless Darkness (apparently after Sea of Death)?

    Let me try this another way... going back to SofOC, Nalbon and Gord fight two agents of the Horned Society for the treasure box and kill them fairly easily, but not without harm to themselves (this was probably in the late Spring or Early Summer of 579). This implies that Nalbon and Gord where of higher level than their opponents, but not significantly so, particulalry since Taw and Swutch were both drunk/roofied when they met their demise, and neither was apparenly using the weapons with which they were most expert. Lets say that Taw and Swutch were both as high as Ftr8, which is about as high as you would expect a pair of sidekicks for Captain Flatchet to be (they could easily be much lower in level, say 3rd or 4th level). Taking into account their impaired states, and that neither was fighting with their best weapon, that would imply that Gord and Nalbon had the fighting ability of 9th to 13th level fighters, with Gord (who was more seriously wounded) on the lower end and Nalbon on the higher end (in AD&D1, bards used the same attack table as fighters, in D&D 3.5, they use the "average" table). That would make Nalbon a Fighter5/Thief5/Bard13 (AD&D1) at the time(probably lower). That's sort of in line with DM Prata's chart; Curley (Drd10/Rgr8) doesn't appear until after Nalbon has eposed the Heirarch's agents, rescued Gord, and done Fharlaghn-Knows-What-Else in the meantime.

    For D&D 3.5, we can assume that he made his status as a Master Thief in Stoink on the basis of skills he picked up in the bard class (Sleight of Hand, etc; any evidence that Nalbon ever picked a lock or backstabbed anybody?), but we should probably keep at least some Ftr levels in order to keep the "original flavor"). That would make Nalbon a maximum of Ftr1/Brd17 (D&D 3.5). If we use the Fochlucan Lyrist option (which uses the "good" attack table, although without multiple attacks), maybe a max' of Ftr1/Brd15/Drd1/FochLyr1? But again, probably lower than that in Stoink (579), and even lower than that in early 577.

    The biggets stumbling block is that you really don't see Nalbon use either spellcasting or bardic abilities that much. In Stoink, that could be because he's holding back as part of his Secret Agent Man thing, but not later. He does convince the Adri woodsman to fight Aerdi, which could be interpreted as bardic ability, but could also just be good diplomacy skills. He also rallies the woodsmen during and after the Battle of Woodford, which could also be bardic ability. But where's the spellcasting? I'm inclined to keep Nablon's spellcasting abilities low until after 579.

    aurdraco wrote:
    jamesdglick wrote:
    Of course, just a little to the southwest of Artonsamay is a viscount with two sons, the older one named Zered, the younger named Zeech. Wink Maybe giving children alliterative names is a Central Flanaess thing?


    Yeah, we can blame Age of Worms for that one. At Britt's urging, I used the same name for Zeech's brother to give a nod to Age of Worms and to prevent confusion in the future (even though Age of Worms is not canon at all for Living Greyhawk).


    -Huh. In which AoW article did Dungeon name Zeech's elder brother? (Your) BDK1 is the only place I've ever seen Zered mentioned, let alone named.

    Glad to see that you're warming to my Nablon vs. Nebon theory. Wink
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    Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:57 pm  

    jamesdglick wrote:
    -Huh. In which AoW article did Dungeon name Zeech's elder brother? (Your) BDK1 is the only place I've ever seen Zered mentioned, let alone named.


    http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Age_of_Worms_Timeline
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Wed Mar 30, 2016 12:34 am  

    jamesdglick wrote:
    Cebrion wrote:
    See this thread for GtR timeline discussion, as it highlights particular dates that coincide with events in the books: http://www.canonfire.com/cf//modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=4270

    ...


    -It links to "Gord the Rogue Timeline" thread OK:

    ...but the source for that is dead, and I can't find anything on the net... Cry

    You need to become more smarterer then, and use the Wayback Machine, like so:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20150330060724/http://home.comcast.net/~chris.s/gordmisc.html

    Wink
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    Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:38 am  

    aurdraco wrote:
    jamesdglick wrote:
    -Huh. In which AoW article did Dungeon name Zeech's elder brother? (Your) BDK1 is the only place I've ever seen Zered mentioned, let alone named.


    http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Age_of_Worms_Timeline


    I've seen this timeline around, but the comments on Zered (575) don't source to anything...
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:41 am  

    Cebrion wrote:


    ...

    https://web.archive.org/web/20150330060724/http://home.comcast.net/~chris.s/gordmisc.html

    Wink[/quote]

    ...I seem to remember there being an entire Gord site that listed almost everything in the first two Gord books; the format wa similiar.
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    Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:28 pm  

    jamesdglick wrote:
    I've seen this timeline around, but the comments on Zered (575) don't source to anything...


    As it's an AoW timeline, I am assuming that it is referencing backstory buried somewhere in the adventure (as I never read it or played it). I forget where Britt first saw the name mentioned but he told me it was in AoW.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:37 pm  

    jamesdglick wrote:
    ...I seem to remember there being an entire Gord site that listed almost everything in the first two Gord books; the format wa similiar.


    I believe you mean a site called Gord's Greyhawk. Seems to be gone now, but here's a bit of it from the Wayback Machine;

    https://web.archive.org/web/20151011034724/http://home.comcast.net/~chris.s/gordmain.html
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