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    Canonfire :: View topic - Sheldomar timeline
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    Sheldomar timeline
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    Forum Moderator

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    Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:15 am  
    Sheldomar timeline

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=506&mode=&order=0&thold=0


    Good stuff to read. I'm surprised there is no discussion on it yet so I'll try a question that has been bugging me, I'm sure I've asked it before but I still can't recall an answer. The Neheli and Rhola dominate politics of Keoish history so how come the nation is named after the Keogh? I don't think they were there first. What and how was this name decided on. Why not Rholand or Nehelia? Just curious for conversation's sake.
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    Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:07 pm  

    I thought that the timeline so far was alright, pretty solid... although I expected somewhat better given all of the effort Sam was going through to get it put up...

    I was impressed by how Sam said he put the real world dates next to the CY dates to "help him get a better perspective of the time periods involved" and then on the first two entries... listed as the same CY, he puts the real world dates 44 years apart...

    that last paragraph contained sarcasm for those who have trouble reading that on message boards.

    Still even with the little things like that which annoyed me, I found it a solid and useful piece of writing.
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    Tue Nov 30, 2004 3:16 pm  
    Re: Sheldomar timeline

    mortellan wrote:
    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=506&mode=&order=0&thold=0


    Good stuff to read. I'm surprised there is no discussion on it yet so I'll try a question that has been bugging me, I'm sure I've asked it before but I still can't recall an answer. The Neheli and Rhola dominate politics of Keoish history so how come the nation is named after the Keogh? I don't think they were there first. What and how was this name decided on. Why not Rholand or Nehelia? Just curious for conversation's sake.


    The Keogh could've been a more cohesive group at some pivotal juncture. Consider England -- it could've just as easily been Saxonland, or Juteland, or Celtland, or post 1066, Frankland.

    Nomenclature is weird.
    Nell.
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    Wed Dec 01, 2004 1:31 pm  

    According to the timeline, the Keogh are the group that picks between the Neheli and the Rhola. I would believe it was at the Council of Niole Dra where this was made "official."

    I liked the timeline and look forward to Part II.

    I think the timeline succeeds in presenting a number of "departure points" that suggest further development. I look at it more as a "creative" or "working" or "living" document than a "literal" one to be enshrined "as is."

    I do think the first part is better than the latter, which begins to drag a bit.

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    Mon Dec 06, 2004 5:03 pm  
    Not too be too nit picky

    Not to be nit picky, and I always love timeline style articles in CF, but I have a couple of points that I wanted to bring up.

    I have some contradictory information regarding the Hand and Eye of Vecna. I did the reviews of the Vecna modules here on CF and found that the first references to the Yaheetes and their rebellion had them placed in the Great Kingdom. The source I found that listed this was the 1993 Book of Artifacts that says on page 35 that the Malachite Thone put down the Yaheetes Rebellion.

    Now the Timeline of the Hand and Eye on CF (which was excellent, I link below) also puts the Yaheetes in the Sheldomar Basin.

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=398&mode=&order=0&thold=0

    Solution: The Book of Artifacts was put under the generic 2nd edition AD&D logo, while it had entries for many different settings, it is not a great source for canon. There were no kingdom names in the entry, so the history recoded therein is really watered down of GH flavor. Just substitute "the Lion Throne" for the "Malachite Throne" and problem solved. This is also more logical, as the relics would be traveling outward from their master's location.

    Also, Nathan Ellis Irving (Former Oerth Journal editor) once posted an alternate "Asberdies the Scorned King" article that placed his rule further north, in the Gran March area, but I lost the link to that article (it was on the old Codex of Greyhawk site).

    OK, I picked enough nits so far. This article is very nice, and the upcoming OJ featuring the Geopolitics of Keoland by Kirt Wackford should prove a nice fleshing out of this timeline.

    O-D
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    Mon Dec 06, 2004 11:33 pm  

    Mmm yeah Book of Artifacts is a tricksies source. On one hand its got good info but yes, it isn't patently Greyhawk. I also see in the same Hand-Eye entry it says the items corrupted Miro the Paladin. I think from what I've heard in Greytalk, Miro was what is now modern day Pale. I ain't saying a nation can't be named after a man, but it's another conflict of interest I think.
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    Fri Dec 10, 2004 6:25 am  
    Should be

    As was mentioned above, there should be a number of good discussions to come out of this, but to this point, i have been too busy adding to my game details to discuss it.

    Thanks Samwise
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    Sun Dec 19, 2004 5:47 pm  

    At the past week's chat, Samwise answered in detail my questions about the struggle to take the lands of the Toli Suel, which were later known as the Hold of the Sea Princes. Gary Holian also commented on this subject.

    I enjoy the chronicle greatly and compare it favorably to past discussions on GreyTalk about the Empire of the Spidered Throne. I understand this chronicle as marking GH fans' progressive understanding of the Flanaess. I don't mean that we've determined "how it was." Rather, a group of fans have scrutinized the published texts and collaborated to imagine a rich tableaux of the history of the Flanaess. It's neat.

    I won't post a summary of Samwise's comments at this time, since he might want to post such himself. If he doesn't do so in a week, however, then I'll likely review the logs and craft a post, which shall go here as well as on the GreyTalk listserv.

    !! Rhola v. Toli !!


    Last edited by mtg on Thu Dec 30, 2004 11:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Sun Dec 19, 2004 7:25 pm  
    Re: Not too be too nit picky

    Osmund-Davizid wrote:
    Also, Nathan Ellis Irving (Former Oerth Journal editor) once posted an alternate "Asberdies the Scorned King" article that placed his rule further north, in the Gran March area, but I lost the link to that article (it was on the old Codex of Greyhawk site).


    Geez Osmund, you've got to be the ONLY guy besides me that remembers that article!! I LOVE YOU, MAN!

    ;-)
    Nell.
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    Thu Dec 30, 2004 9:19 pm  

    I didn't know this was here . . .

    OK, catching up on stuff.

    Why is the Kingdom named for the Keogh?
    Primarily because based on Gygax's description of Tom Keogh, he sounds like a really decent fellow, and I thought he deserved to be remembered in the game for a bit longer.
    To justify this, I originally had a fair kludge of calling it a compromise agreement between the Suel and Oeridians. ie "We rule, but you get the naming rights."
    Later, while discussing various development issues, I decided on a totally ex post facto retcon that "Keogh" was Old Oeridian for something equivalent to "allies", "companions", or "friends". The Keogh tribe of the Oeridians just means "The Allies". Keoland, or Keogh-rond in Old Oeridian, is "The Land of the Allies".

    As for an error in one date, I'm calling a mulligan on that one.

    The final parts of the Slumbering do drag more than a bit, for two reasons.
    First, it is a pretty boring period unless you want a more detailed analysis of a technological and cultural renaissance, or you want more details of the inceasing decadence of the Neheli Kings. The first is really only of interest to people with a strong scholarly bent, the second to those with a strong prurient bent. Either way, it would not make for good entires.
    Second, my muse was worn out, and I was having a bit of trouble getting the feel Gary wanted for the Neheli in the Slumbering. While we could have just cut it earlier, with the disappearance of Malv, it would have meant opening Part II with the relatively irrelevant Slumbering instead of jumping right into Tavish the Great, so I figured it would be better to leave it in.
    As a minor effect, the Isle of Dread was going to print, so Gary didn't want to reveal that in the timeline before that came out. So things got a little constricted there.

    As for the other aspects of the document being "living", it should also be noted that we didn't reveal a lot of secrets because we still weren't sure how far to go. What is there is mostly material that is strictly from canon, just with a few notes expanding on it. What isn't there are a lot of details that are both more divergent from canon, and significantly more secret. We still stop short of saying exactly what happened to the Malhel for example, or what the secret of Valadis is. How to present such remains a question we still haven't resolved.

    As for Vecna and the Yaheetes, they are said to have been in the Dreadwood. Checking a Greyhawk map, the Dreadwood is next to Keoland, not the Great Kingdom. More, at the time of the Yaheetes, the Great Kingdom doesn't even exist. Now the Grandwood is in the Great Kingdom. And the Yaheetes could have occurred a lot later. But faced with two obvious errors, one of time and one of place, I chose to keep both and change the Kingdom that suppressed the Yaheetes.

    As for Asberdies, the LGG places him in the Yeomanry, so in the Yeomanry he was left.

    As for my comments on the Toli Wars, that will likely have to wait for Part 2 to be finished, and for us to go back and expand on Part 1.

    OK, I think that's up to the present. Hopefully I'll remember to check here again.
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    Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:16 am  
    The Imperial Era and the Tavishes

    Because this thread discussed the inaugural part of Samwise's amazing series of posts detailing the political history of Keoland, I'm adding to it rather than creating a new one. See http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=719&mode=&order=0&thold=0 for The Imperial Era and the Tavishes.

    I find this installment very very good. It builds upon what Samwise has already constructed--detailing what was previously only chronicled.

    The post also raises a host of questions. I'll pose mine shortly.
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    Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:11 am  

    I'll be waiting for the comments.
    Two essays of this first series remain to be posted, along with part 2 of the timeline. (Time to yell at Holian again.) After that, a second series is in development.
    Along the way I've been tweaking and editing everything, clearing up typos, dropped words, and other random errors that were overlooked before submitting them.
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    Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:01 pm  

    Samwise I have a question concerning your timeline

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=506&mode=&order=0&thold=0

    The Yaheetes. Are these the original inhabitants of the modern Gran March, if so what is their racial mix and history?

    Quote:
    [1249] -161 Gran March founded


    Quote:
    [1289] -121 Senestal I Neheli [14 years] History: The wars with Toli have drained the Kingdom, and a number of issues have arisen in the north, particularly the Gran March of Dorlin


    Quote:
    [1303] -107 Senestal I murdered in Shibboleth History: While visiting the newly built capital of the Gran March (of Dorlin), Senestal is murdered by a creature of unknown type and origin.


    Gran March. The "invasion" began in -161 but I am unsure as to when it was completed, was it -121 or around -107?

    Thanks for taking the time to answer the questions, the timeline got 5 out of 5 from me.
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    Mon Sep 12, 2005 4:27 pm  

    The Yaheetes are the "earlier" inhabitants of the Duchy of Gradsul. The Yaheetes were Flan. They had been broken by Vecna several centuries earlier, and by the time they were ready to recover the Firstcomers began rolling over them. They were functionally exterminated (maybe truly exterminated) by the end of the Insurrection of the Yaheetes. (See the appropriate forthcoming essay for that.)

    I never give a specific date for when the Gran March was officially "subdued". Technically, or perhaps just legally, I guess it wasn't subdued until Tavish I declared the Gran March a separate province, disbanded the Knights of the March, and created the Knights of the Watch.
    Functionally, I suspect the majority of the Gran March was "subdued" about 200 years after it was founded, around the time the Slumbering was getting into full swing. (Conveniently enough.) That would be enough time to kill enough people to conquer the region, then have enough generations pass for anyone left to think of themselves os Keoish instead of whatever they were before.
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    Sat Sep 17, 2005 4:52 pm  

    "The Keogh could've been a more cohesive group at some pivotal juncture. Consider England -- it could've just as easily been Saxonland, or Juteland, or Celtland, or post 1066, Frankland.

    Nomenclature is weird.
    Nell."


    Samwise wrote:

    Why is the Kingdom named for the Keogh?
    ...To justify this, I originally had a fair kludge of calling it a compromise agreement between the Suel and Oeridians. ie "We rule, but you get the naming rights."
    Later, while discussing various development issues, I decided on a totally ex post facto retcon that "Keogh" was Old Oeridian for something equivalent to "allies", "companions", or "friends". The Keogh tribe of the Oeridians just means "The Allies". Keoland, or Keogh-rond in Old Oeridian, is "The Land of the Allies".


    For me, it is about language, especially vernacular language.

    Why is England, England? Not because the Angles dominated any more than the Saxons...but because the language of the common people eventually became English. English became adopted by the angles and saxons and jutes and britons and scots etc. Eventually it even became adopted by the welsh and irish, though relatively recently.

    After the Norman conquest of England, the language of court was either French or Latin for more than 300 years at least. But the common people still spoke what was developing as English, and this english culture, organized around the english language, became emblematic for the country.

    I picture the same thing happening in Keoland. Yes, the government is dominated by the Suel, and the language of court probably was Suloise long after that language was spoken anywhere else. But demographic factors eventually made Keolandish the language of the sheldomar basin, and Keolandish is mostly derived from Oeridian (WoG p.16). That is, Keoland is the land of the people who speak Keolandish, and all the common people speak it, regardless of whether they are of Flan, Suel, or Oerid descent.

    It would have been quite some time after the founding that this happened. In my OJ article, I give the first name of the country as the Suel Regency (perhaps the Grand Regency of the Suel or somesuch originally). Much later, after Keolandish became adopted universally, the country was called the Kingdom of Keoland. This name was "pushed back" to refer all the way back to the period of the first Oerdian King, although the people of that time would have still called it the Regency.

    As far as Nell's suggestion of "Celtland", better "Britain". Named after one of the principle celtic tribes, the Britons. And, we should add "Dutchland" after the line of Georges come to the throne, as they were from Germany. Queen Victoria's beloved Albert, King of England, spoke no English.
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    Sat Sep 17, 2005 8:44 pm  

    While that could work, I don't see it as properly reflecting the racial backgrounds and general history.
    People of Suel origin are more numerous in the Sheldomar than people of Oeridian origin. Further, the Suel got there first. If anything, the language should be a Suel dialect with "local" admixture.
    There are a number of issues with the language distribution given in the Dragon article that introduced Keoish (Keolandish), such as Suel not appearing on the list for the Duchy of Urnst, while Flan and Oeridian do. Whatever the reason for the discrepancies, I prefer to place them all in the category of "Aerdi bias", and just revise them as needed.
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    Sun Sep 18, 2005 5:29 pm  

    Okay, I finally made the time to post my questions about Samwise's recent article, The Imperial Era and the Tavishes. See http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=719&mode=&order=0&thold=0.

    But first I want to ask a few questions about Samwise's latest post. What Dragon article introduced Keoish (Keolandish)? Was this an early Gygax article--one of those old campaign updates--or is it something else entirely?

    I ask because I tend to agree with Paul that the Oeridian dialect of Keolandish seems a fine way to help explain the name of Keoland. While I've corresponded with Paul in the past (on GT) about his ideas about the formation of the Common Tongue, I've also never considered the Suel to be predominant in any region of the Flanaess. Instead, I've tended to imagine the Oeridian and Flan admixture tends to be prevalent amongst the commoners of every realm.

    Upon reflection and reference to the LGG, this idea is clearly not supported. Instead, from the beginning Gygax attempted to distinguish the various states of the Flanaess on the basis of their distinctive historical amalgamations.

    So I somewhat ambivalently concede to Samwise that Keoland should
    "remain" SOf. However, for me this raises a set of questions about the populace. I had tended to believe that the Suel tended to "lose" to the Oeridians in part because they were a less numerous people. This seems not to have been the case.

    On the other hand, one might argue that the SOf indicates less about ethnicity and more about proportionate cultural influences.

    As this point is not the main one I wanted to make, I'll leave it there and hope for some good discussion about the ramifications of going one way or the other.

    Okay, on to my questions:

      1. The length of the reigns of the five Imperial kings is amazing. Were these the most long-lived Keoish monarchs? What does that answer suggest about the longevity of the Suel royal houses? What role did longevity magicks play? Were the priesthoods of Lendor (or Cyndor) involved?

      2. What was the role of Sterich prior to CY 287, i.e., during the Slumbering?

      3. King Tavish the Great and Prince Corond reportely caused Stoneheim to be raised in CY 291. Was this an entirely new town, or was it built atop older (Firstcomer?) ruins, which in turn were built upon an old Trakon (Flan) settlement?

      4. Please provide more information abou the Rhola Suel who became the Palatine Counts of Ulek. Is this information in Fate of Istus, or was it only evoked there and then elaborated?

      5. Returning to Sterich, which was reportedly "[s]ettled in as a client state of Keoland by relatives of the Grand Duke of Geoff," (LGG, 107) this article contradicts the assertion made in Dungeon--that Sterich was founded "nearly 800 years ago." See Greg A. Vaughan & Erik Mona, Istitivn: City of Shadows, Dungeon 117, page 32. Should Sterich be that old? This age seems justified by the land's lack of significant forests, which can be fairly interpreted to mean that the riparian woodleands of the Davish River have been clear-cut by the end of the 6th century CY, but I hope to hear others' views.

      6. Regarding the Gran March, the article indicates that the Knights of the Watch were established around the same time, i.e., synergistically. What of the reported Knights of the March, mentioned in GH'98 products. If the Knights of the March predate the Knights of the Watch, did the former substantially predate the establishment of Gran March? Was their eponymous March the earlier settlement of Sedenna, Middlemead, Blerfield, and Mareman? Were the Malagari originally a completely separate order (from the Knights of the March) that was then incorporated into the Knights of the Watch (as a secret society) when the Knights of the March were reformulated? What was the historical (original) relationship between the Malagari and the Order of the Silent Tower?

      7. What was the role of the Viscounty of Salinmoor and the County Eor during the Toli Wars? You mention a Monmurg March. How far did this extend into the former Hold of the Sea Princes. When did Berghof become a "Grand Duchy?"

      8. What great families now vie for the rule of House Rhola? Luschan VIII is of the Sellark family, but did all the Vilchars choose exile, or did some renounce the Sea Prince's "treason?"
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    Sun Sep 18, 2005 6:55 pm  

    Geeze, try asking asking a complex question some time mtg.
    Cool

    From the top:

    "Keolandish" appeared in an article by Len Lakofka in Dragon # 52, along with Fruz and the other "dialects".
    The Suel did not lose to the Oeridians in the Sheldomar mostly because it says so - that they lost except in the Sheldomar where the Rhola and Neheli held their land. If anything, that suggests the Oeridians should be even more marginalized there, as some have chosen to do, and makes Keoish being an Oeridian dialect even more suspect.

    1. The Tavishes had long reigns mostly because they married very late and their heirs came to the throne at (relatively) young ages. Note that Tavish III has the sobriquet of "the Boy King". Had he not died at Westkeep he would have reigned for another 20-30 years. There was nothing magical or mystical about it.
    From the Timeline, Tavish the Great is not the longest reigning King, but he is close.

    2. During the Slumbering Sterich slumbered, along with the rest of the Kingdom. However, if you check Mandros and the Rise and Fall of Oeridian Power in the Sheldomar, you will see that mostly what they did was assimilate, the Suel nobility encouraging the Flan to reduce the power of the Keogh "tribalists" who had been exiled there.
    (The essays are a synergistic product.)

    3. Never stated. It is most likely that it was raised on the site of a former settlement that was razed either during the war against Tyrus or by the Suenha (the Firstcomer House that occupied the area) at some time. Good city sites are typically settled as soon as someone finds them.

    4. The Rhola of the County of Ulek are discussed in Fate of Istus. I haven't significantly elaborated on them for several reasons, among them the issue of dealing with just what a Palatine Count is, and how it fits in with the general background.

    5. It doesn't contradict the date of founding, and only has a minor conflict with the other details in that and the LGG.
    Sterich was established in -230 CY (112th Session of the Keoish Court). The LGG date is 591 CY (933 KC). That is actually a bit over 800 years ago, but it is possible that Istivin was founded a few years after the County.
    The main contradiction is the assertion of it being founded by "relatives of the Grand Duke of Geoff," as said nation wouldn't technically exist until 316 CY (658 KC). Thus my massive retcon that appears first in the Timeline and is discussed more in the Mandros essay that those "relatives" refer to the original Counts of Hochoch, who under my interpretation were shipped to Sterich while their replacements would become the Counts (then Dukes, then Grand Dukes) of all of Geoff half a millenium later.

    6. The Knights of the March were created in -162 CY (181 KC) by House Neheli at the "request" of King Malv II as a result of the Insurrection of the Yaheetes. (For which see The Yaheetes and Tyrus: The Wars Against the Hand and the Eye in the Sheldomar.)
    Their public purpose was to expand the Kingdom northwards beyond the Sheldomar River. Their private purpose was to exterminate the Vecna worshippers that lived in the former heart of his empire before they could rise up like the Yaheetes. Within the Knights of the March was an inner circle that knew the details of this, and directed the conquest of settlements to become massacres as needed.
    When Tavish the Great decided to expand the borders to the Fals Gap he needed a group focused against the Baklunish rather than the Flan. (That they were also causing "issues" with the expansion in Geoff was also relevant.) He therefore took most of the Knights of the March and "promoted" them to a new, higher status organization, the Knights of the Watch. At the same time the inner circle group was split off and established as the Knights of the Malagari.
    The relationship between the Knights of the Malagari, the Silent Ones, and House Neheli has always been excessively close. The Silents Ones were half a "national" organization of sorcerors and half the rulers of the Neheli looking to expand their power. It was the founders of the Silent Ones when they were just the Seers of the Neheli that made the original deal with Vecna to keep him from wiping out House Neheli when they first appeared, and who later took possession of the Hand and Eye when Vecna was thrown down by Kas. The Knights of the Malagari in pursuing any signs of Vecna or his relics essentially function as a mundane strike arm of the Silent Ones, collecting dangerous magic before it gets used. The Knights of the Malagari, like the Knights of the March, are nearly a private force of House Neheli, with most high ranking members being from the ruling families of the House.

    7. For most of the Toli Wars except the last the Viscounty of Salinmoor did not exist. There were some scattered fishing villages, and a few small resupply ports, but Keoish fleets sailed from Gradsul. That was why the naval basin at Monmurg (near Monmurg actually) was so important. It cut several hundred miles off the logistics line for the fleets operating in Jeklea Bay. Salinmoor was founded by Tavish the Great while he was still just the Duke of Gradsul, partly to extend his naval supply line closer to Jeklea Bay as he expected another war would be needed with the Toli. Later, during the rebellion of Luschan the Sea Prince, those ports would become critical.
    The County of Eor was a minor supporter during most of the wars after the first, though unable to do all that much because it was never as big a city as Cryllor or Flen.
    The Monmurg March was the name of the Hold of the Sea Princes during the time it was part of Keoland. (From the reign of Tavish I until the rebellion of Luschan the Sea Prince during the reign of Tavish III. (306-453 CY, 648-795 KC, although it was effectively conquered7 years earlier.) It comprised the entirety of the Hold of the Sea Princes, which name was not applied to the region for another 11 years when Luschan the Sea Prince was killed in the Battle of Flotsom Island (464 CY, 806 KC), and Tavish IV accepted that he couldn't reconquer the region.
    Berghof being a Grand Duchy is one of those "issues" stemming from the British modules set in the south, both UK 2 & 3 which introduced it, and U 1-3 which introduced Saltmarsh. Berghof being a "Grand Duchy" is questionable at best, there being no nearby area for it to be a Grand Duchy of, the title of Grand Duke typically indicating a relative of a reigning King. In any event, Berghof was peacefully absorbed a few years after Tavish the Great conquered the region in the Last (Eighth) Toli War.

    8. The Sellarks basically dominate the family at the moment. The Vilchar's did not follow Luschan the Sea Prince into exile. This is an undetailed, and undiscussed, area of background. It is possible, based on certain statements Gary has made, that the Earldom of Gand is current base of the Vilchar, as he has mentioned it "split" from the Duchy of Gradsul as a result of the end of the Imperial Era. I'm also working on developing what will likely be the Gryrax Rhola, a family based in and ruling the city of that name who now consider themselves servants of the Olinstaad first. Their original name was Vilchar-Sellark, relatives of both sides in the civil war, which is why they changed their name.

    (And I think this answer is longer than the essay!)
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    Sat Sep 24, 2005 10:55 am  

    Just a note for anyone following this series, the first batch is now complete. I still need to nag Gary about part 2 of the Timeline, but The Yaheetes and Tyrus is the last of the first set of essays I prepared.
    We've got a few more things in development, and a larger project is now looming.
    Master Greytalker

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    Sun Sep 25, 2005 10:05 pm  

    A small part of this thread began as a question about why Keoland, dominated by Suel, should be named for the Keogh, an Oeridian tribe.

    I offered my opinion that it was not named for the tribe per se, but for the language known as Keolandish, whose dominant root was the particular dialect of Old Oeridian spoken by the Keogh (although Keolandish has both Suel and Flan elements).

    Unfortuneately, I used the word "demographically", unintentially implying that the adoption of Keolandish as a mostly Oerdian tongue arrose because of greater reproduction rates of the Oerid. That was not my intention, and as Samwise pointed out, such an interpretation would not fit what we know of Keoland, which as a whole is SOf, ie, mostly of Suel descent.

    Samwise wrote:

    "Keolandish" appeared in an article by Len Lakofka in Dragon # 52, along with Fruz and the other "dialects".
    The Suel did not lose to the Oeridians in the Sheldomar mostly because it says so - that they lost except in the Sheldomar where the Rhola and Neheli held their land. If anything, that suggests the Oeridians should be even more marginalized there, as some have chosen to do, and makes Keoish being an Oeridian dialect even more suspect.


    Okay - this deals with the meta-game issue of what to do with conflicting canon. We have canon saying that the dominant race in the Sheldomar is Suel and we have canon saying that the dominant language in the Sheldomar is mostly derived from Oeridian.

    Samwise's and my responses to this typify our different approaches to the game. Faced with this apparent conundrum, Samwise takes the canon he likes and plays it up, and takes the canon he doesn't like, plays it down and tries to discredit it. He knows what he likes and is very assertive in trying to establish it as the norm.

    My approach is to try to encorporate all canon that is not bluntly contradictory. Given an apparent contradiction, I would like to make a creative arguement about why there really is no contradiction. I would rather invent a reasonable explanation for the existance of both statements; Samwise would rather choose the "better" canon and move on.

    Different strokes for different folks - both valid approaches. If you like Samwise's approach, you would call it straightforword and sensable and mine spineless canon-apeasement. If you like my approach, you would call it creative consensus and his a steamroller of personal bias.

    As you read the following, please bear in mind that I am arguing my side because it is mine to argue (Sam can argue his side well enough without my help). That is, I think Samwise's approach is fine for people who like it, and I don't think he is "wrong". But for people who prefer my approach, here is what I think...

    Samwise wrote:

    While ((Kirt's suggestion)) could work, I don't see it as properly reflecting the racial backgrounds and general history.
    People of Suel origin are more numerous in the Sheldomar than people of Oeridian origin. Further, the Suel got there first. If anything, the language should be a Suel dialect with "local" admixture.


    Well, if languages evolved and became adopted solely because population factors, then yes, the language of the Sheldomar shoud be mostly Suel, because the racial background of the people in the Sheldomar is mostly Suel.

    However, other factors influence the spread of languages, among them being utility and flexability. A prime example of this is English. Hindi is one of the most spoken languages in the world today because of "native numbers" alone - very few people speak Hindi that are not descended from native speakers. On the other hand, English is one of the most spoken languages in the world today as well, and only to a small extent because of the number of native speakers. Milliones of people learn English as a second language because of the business, intellectual, and cultural benefits that knowing English confers. The actual number of "racial" Anglos in the world is relatively small compared to their wealth and poltical power, so many people see an advantage in learning English.

    In terms of flexability, IIRC English has more words than any other world language, traditionally because of the ease with which it assimilates useful foreign words and nowadays because most of the words invented to accompany new technology are coined in English.

    What does this have to do with Keoland? Consider the Sheldomar, several generations post-founding of the Kingdom/Regency. People of Suel, Oeridian, and Flan descent, as well as demi-humans are thrown together in a big cultural pot. As the Kingdom becomes more unified, the need for broad-based communication between racial groups favors the creation of a common language - these people have to have some way of communicating with each other, whether they are merchants, soldiers, or work crews.

    The question is, from where wlll this new language come? Certainly Suel is more spoken, but the new language ends up being mostly from Oeridian. Why?

    My guess would be that Oeridian was more flexable in changing and that it provided more utility to those learning it. For example, would a bastardized version of Suel give a Flan or Oeridian commoner an advantage in Suel markets or courts? Unlikely. Probably the Suel are even more pretentious about "proper Suel" than the French are about "proper French". Try to speak non-native Suel to your Suel overlord and you are likely to be treated worse than an American using high school French on a French waiter. On the other hand, a Flan peasant or Suel merchant who picks up a smattering of Oeridian would have a great advantage when talking to Oerid chieftens or customers.

    My instinct is that Ancient Suel had a very rigid structure and was very formally developed, and was highly tied to writing. I believe Oeridian, being a tribal language spoken by nomads would be far more loose and accomidating to change. AFAIK, there is no mention of Old Oeridan being a written language. If it was only oral, that would give it even more flexability.

    Thus, I think Oeridian served as the primary source of Keolandish because it was the easiest to adapt to the needs of the new language.

    Ironicly, Samwise does not like the idea of Oeridian being the basis of Keolandish, but his explanation for the orgin of Keoland is that it comes from the Oerid word Keogh which means "friend", or "ally". Is there no word in Suel for allies or friends? That is, he rejects that the language could develop from Oeridan because the Oerid were in the minority, but suggests that the country itself was named after an Oeridian word.


    Samwise wrote:

    There are a number of issues with the language distribution given in the Dragon article that introduced Keoish (Keolandish), such as Suel not appearing on the list for the Duchy of Urnst, while Flan and Oeridian do. Whatever the reason for the discrepancies, I prefer to place them all in the category of "Aerdi bias", and just revise them as needed.


    Unfortunately, I do not have the original Dragon article, rather just what appeared in WoG. I will say that I think the arguement of Aerdi bias is over-used, particularly when applied to things that come from the Guide. While the Glossography was written in Rel Mord, the Guide was written in Greyhawk City by someone of not-nesecessarily Aerdi origin.

    MTG wrote:
    "On the other hand, one might argue that the SOf indicates less about ethnicity and more about proportionate cultural influences."

    I think the actual text in WoG makes it explictly clear that it is talking about physical race, not culture. The descriptions are of skin tone, eye color, etc.
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    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:26 am  

    Quote:
    Samwise's and my responses to this typify our different approaches to the game. Faced with this apparent conundrum, Samwise takes the canon he likes and plays it up, and takes the canon he doesn't like, plays it down and tries to discredit it. He knows what he likes and is very assertive in trying to establish it as the norm.

    My approach is to try to encorporate all canon that is not bluntly contradictory. Given an apparent contradiction, I would like to make a creative arguement about why there really is no contradiction. I would rather invent a reasonable explanation for the existance of both statements; Samwise would rather choose the "better" canon and move on.


    My approach is a bit more complex than that Kirt. It considers not merely each individual instance of canon contradiction or confusion, but all of it together, across a wide variety of topics.
    Thus it is not merely considering that Keoish should have a Suel base rather than an Oeridian base, but also noting the comments about the Flan not having made significant efforts at civilization, and combining them with the concept of the "ur-Flan", and all of the other little bits and pieces here and there, and combining them to suggest that "Aerdi bias" you wish to dismiss. Indeed, I would note that you miss the point there, as despite being in Rel Mord, Pluffet Smedger was almost certainly writing as an Aerdi and not as any other variety of Oeridian. You seem to have forgotten that Nyrond is ruled by an Aerdi Royal House, the Nyrond branch of the Rax-Nyrond.
    So there is a lot more to it than just choosing what I like and attacking what I don't like.

    Quote:
    However, other factors influence the spread of languages, among them being utility and flexability. A prime example of this is English. Hindi is one of the most spoken languages in the world today because of "native numbers" alone - very few people speak Hindi that are not descended from native speakers. On the other hand, English is one of the most spoken languages in the world today as well, and only to a small extent because of the number of native speakers. Milliones of people learn English as a second language because of the business, intellectual, and cultural benefits that knowing English confers. The actual number of "racial" Anglos in the world is relatively small compared to their wealth and poltical power, so many people see an advantage in learning English.


    A very nice example. Except . . .
    It ignores the massively superior communications network of the modern world as compared to the magic-enhanced medieval world. In no way did you find anything remotely similar pre-Renaissance. Latin was widespread, but only in a very specific manner, first as the language of conqueror, then as the dead language of a religious and quasi-ruling elite. If it came to a comparison, either would speak for a more widespread use of Ancient Suel in the Sheldomar.
    It was only with the rise of significant, coherent, nation states that a lingua franca rose to a position of a "world-wide" (actually just European-wide) diplomatic tongue, that being French, later supplanted by English.
    So this example is simply not applicable.

    Quote:
    In terms of flexability, IIRC English has more words than any other world language, traditionally because of the ease with which it assimilates useful foreign words and nowadays because most of the words invented to accompany new technology are coined in English.


    Again, very much not applicable, as there is no significant technological gap to be breached by language in the Flanaess.
    We might surmise that there is a magical gap to be breached, presuming that the non-literate Oeridian barbarians could produce only sorcerors or the equivalent. In which case that would form a stronger suggestion that Suloise be adopted as the primary language to cover that gap.

    Quote:
    My instinct is that Ancient Suel had a very rigid structure and was very formally developed, and was highly tied to writing. I believe Oeridian, being a tribal language spoken by nomads would be far more loose and accomidating to change. AFAIK, there is no mention of Old Oeridan being a written language. If it was only oral, that would give it even more flexability.


    Another good theory. Except . . .
    The Suloise had a rather large empire, with a strong suggestion that they incorporated one or more subject peoples of different races. If we are to go to such depths of inference, we must equally surmise that Suloise proved adequate for incorporating them into that empire. Thus, it would be equally suitable to incorporating the Oeridians and the Flan.
    Further, the Oeridian culture was, as you accept, primarily that of nomadic horse herders. The Sheldomar culture was primarily that of settled farmers. As such, Oeridian would not have a huge amount of the needed vocabulary. Indeed, even Suloise would likely not have the vocabulary necessary for all of the local flora and fauna. But that would suggest then that Flan would be the basis for Keoish, as indeed it would be for Common! But since that is obviously going to be rejected, we most limit our choice to Oeridian, a language of nomadic herders, or Suloise, a language of imperial agriculturalists. Which then is more suitable?
    Further, as you accept, if Oeridian does not have a written form, which language would provide the written script? Again we would have to default to Flan or Suloise, and again we would have to reject Flan immediately. Which language then will this Suloise script model better, Oeridian or Suloise? Again I think the answer is obvious.

    Quote:
    Ironicly, Samwise does not like the idea of Oeridian being the basis of Keolandish, but his explanation for the orgin of Keoland is that it comes from the Oerid word Keogh which means "friend", or "ally". Is there no word in Suel for allies or friends? That is, he rejects that the language could develop from Oeridan because the Oerid were in the minority, but suggests that the country itself was named after an Oeridian word.


    Not at all. I think they didn't have a word for this particular type of inter-tribal alliance. That is hardly peculiar, particularly if the Suel are taken to be as anti-social as portrayed. I am sure they have words for subjects, servants, slaves, employees, and even "people we are currently fighting the same enemy with", but they just plain might not have a specific term for "people we join with as equals of our own."
    And in that case, yes, the country would wind up being named in Oeridian.
    However, if you had noted several other comments I had made on the subject, you would have caught an assertion that country was originally named bilingually, Keogh Rond in Old Oeridian (Keogh dialect) and something unspecified in Ancient Suel. With the gradual development of Keoish, the fact that the specific term that best described the country and form of government came from Old Oeridian meant the version of the name in that language gained primacy, and was the one eventually developed into Keoland. (And you might note that I derive the second part of that from the names for Ferrond and Nyrond, Fer Rond and Ny Rond respectively, meaning Far Lands and Near Lands in perspective to the great Kingdom. The Aerdi dialect in Ferrond shifting to the point that it became Furyondy, while Nyrond remains the same, showing how much closer their language has remained to its root, as well as a lesser influence of a local Oeridian dialect.)

    With all that combined I submit that your own standards speak against Keoish being derived from Oeridian, and in fact give overwhelming support to it having a Suel base with Oeridian admixture, and Flan and demi-human adopted words for specific local conditions.

    So that is a more complete (it is not absolutely complete) explanation of my approach. As I said, it is significantly more to it than just "well I don't like that part of canon so to heck with it." I just don't include all of that in my background essays as I am not writing them as scholarly papers, nor do I have the habit of such. My footnotes simply rattle around in my head until they combine to form another wild conclusion that I can develop into something fun.
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    Mon Sep 26, 2005 12:29 pm  

    Ah canon, you can’t live with it, you can’t live without it. I think Samwise is right that Keoish should come from Suel, but I agree with Kirt that it is better to come up with a creative approach to reconcile the Oerdian origin.

    To be critical (hopefully constructively) of both of your approaches, the thing that I found missing was an analysis of Common or reference to those ideas that have already been posted as articles. Common is, IMO, an absurdly improbable, but highly useful (and quintessentially GH) language. The very fact that it can exists in GH is evidence that there is some unnatural linguistic dynamic going on.

    IMO, The Languages of the Flanaess, by Tim Bugler with Ken Barns, at http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=663, does a very good job at explaining Keoish and how, among other things, its “grammatical structure is largely Oeridian, but the formation of tenses and written script are clearly Suelitic, and the vocabulary is thoroughly hybridised.”

    For comparison there is The Development of the Common Tongue, by smillan_31, at http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=732.
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Sep 26, 2005 8:57 pm  

    Quote:
    Common is, IMO, an absurdly improbable, but highly useful (and quintessentially GH) language. The very fact that it can exists in GH is evidence that there is some unnatural linguistic dynamic going on.


    ROFL

    Yeah, it's called the "This is a role-playing game, not a linguistics course, having one language that almost everyone speaks, and limiting the number of additional languages needed and learnable keeps the bookkeeping to a minimum and makes spells like comprehend languages and tongues relevant and fun" Dynamic. A relatively obscure, but otherwise thoroughly convenient Dynamic often found in movies where it typically appears as the "Because people come to watch and listen to a movie, not read a movie, so I don't care if these people would really be speaking Old Low Westphalian, in this movie they speak colloquial American English!" Dynamic. (And of course that leads to the "Unlike other Robin Hoods, I can speak with an English accent" Dynamic. But that is an extremely rare effect.)

    And so Greyhawk got one modern and four ancient languages, gradually expanded with a bunch of dialects and some "foreign" languages.
    Those who care for linguistic complexity will wind changing that, ignoring or glossing over canon as desired.
    Those who do not care for linguistic complexity will just accept it and save themselves lots of time and effort.
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    Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:19 pm  

    Samwise wrote:
    My approach is a bit more complex than that Kirt.


    I'm sure it is. As is mine. Yes, my characterization was overly simplistic, of us both. I do think it was more-or-less fair, judging from what I have seen of your approach over the years. If you don't think so, you are free to say otherwise (and just have).

    Samwise wrote:

    Indeed, I would note that you miss the point there, as despite being in Rel Mord, Pluffet Smedger was almost certainly writing as an Aerdi and not as any other variety of Oeridian. You seem to have forgotten that Nyrond is ruled by an Aerdi Royal House, the Nyrond branch of the Rax-Nyrond.


    And I think you missed my point. I am certainly ready to admit Aerdi bias in anything from the Glossography. Or Rax-Nyrond Royal Aerdi bias, if you prefer. My beef is people using Aerdi bias to explain things written in the Guide. Smedger was not the author of the Guide, "The Savant-Sage" was. The Savant-Sage wrote in Greyhawk, is of unknown racial origin, and was the author of both the racial compositions on page 14 and the language descriptions of page 16 of the Guide.

    Samwise wrote:

    Not at all. I think they didn't have a word for this particular type of inter-tribal alliance. That is hardly peculiar, particularly if the Suel are taken to be as anti-social as portrayed. I am sure they have words for subjects, servants, slaves, employees, and even "people we are currently fighting the same enemy with", but they just plain might not have a specific term for "people we join with as equals of our own."

    That is an interesting clarification. Point taken.

    Samwise wrote:

    And in that case, yes, the country would wind up being named in Oeridian.
    However, if you had noted several other comments I had made on the subject, you would have caught an assertion that country was originally named bilingually, Keogh Rond in Old Oeridian (Keogh dialect) and something unspecified in Ancient Suel. With the gradual development of Keoish, the fact that the specific term that best described the country and form of government came from Old Oeridian meant the version of the name in that language gained primacy, and was the one eventually developed into Keoland.


    And you might have noted that in my first post I said that the nation was originally named in Suel and later named in Oerid/Proto Kelandish, passing through a phase where it was billingually named, essentially similar to what you describe.

    Samwise wrote:

    (And you might note that I derive the second part of that from the names for Ferrond and Nyrond, Fer Rond and Ny Rond respectively, meaning Far Lands and Near Lands in perspective to the great Kingdom. The Aerdi dialect in Ferrond shifting to the point that it became Furyondy, while Nyrond remains the same, showing how much closer their language has remained to its root, as well as a lesser influence of a local Oeridian dialect.)


    This is an interesting and useful interpretation. Well done! I had always assumed that Ny or Nyr meant something like "unfathomable" from its use in Nyr Dyv (which means Lake of the Unknown Depths), assuming the Dyv part is lake, making the city of Dyvers somesthing like "Lakeside". Perhaps Ny means "near" but the "r" conveys the unknown part, such that Nyr means "of unknown nearness /distance /depth"

    Cheers.
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    Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:19 pm  

    Kirt wrote:
    I'm sure it is. As is mine. Yes, my characterization was overly simplistic, of us both. I do think it was more-or-less fair, judging from what I have seen of your approach over the years. If you don't think so, you are free to say otherwise (and just have).


    Pretty much. I generally save my in-depth explanations of all the background reasoning for chat room sessions (where I can use them to browbeat Gary into accepting my canon revisions), or in response to specific questions (because they can get very in-depth, and wind up longer than the article or passage that is based on them).

    Quote:
    And I think you missed my point. I am certainly ready to admit Aerdi bias in anything from the Glossography. Or Rax-Nyrond Royal Aerdi bias, if you prefer. My beef is people using Aerdi bias to explain things written in the Guide. Smedger was not the author of the Guide, "The Savant-Sage" was. The Savant-Sage wrote in Greyhawk, is of unknown racial origin, and was the author of both the racial compositions on page 14 and the language descriptions of page 16 of the Guide.


    No, I got your point. Barring evidence to the contrary, I would say the Savant-Sage was also Aerdi for multiple reasons.
    First of course being that the area was ruled by the Aerdi at one time, including when the city was at its height. Second, proceeding from that, is that anyone who is sage is most likely from that former ruling class which was never displaced, and would continue to provide the scholarly class for centuries after that withdrawal. Third is that a known Aerdi scholar found little to correct in it. Fourth is that it is never stated just how much of the Guide reflects the changes made by Pluffet Smedger as opposed to being purely the work of the Savant-Sage. Fifth would be questioning just how much the Savant-Sage also knew about linguistics as well as geography, history, and more.
    Finally, and most important, by establishing and accepting the basic material as being written by the Savant-Sage, it sets the stage for everything to be have been written with bias or lack of complete information, and thus not absolute and incontrovertible.

    Quote:
    And you might have noted that in my first post I said that the nation was originally named in Suel and later named in Oerid/Proto Kelandish, passing through a phase where it was billingually named, essentially similar to what you describe.


    And I was providing the specific derivation I used, which while similar is still distinct.

    Quote:
    This is an interesting and useful interpretation. Well done! I had always assumed that Ny or Nyr meant something like "unfathomable" from its use in Nyr Dyv (which means Lake of the Unknown Depths), assuming the Dyv part is lake, making the city of Dyvers somesthing like "Lakeside". Perhaps Ny means "near" but the "r" conveys the unknown part, such that Nyr means "of unknown nearness /distance /depth"

    Cheers.


    It is one I proposed several years ago after noting that the Vel/Ver/Dyv/A River flows past VELuna/VERbobonc/DYVers.
    As for Ny and Nyr, I would think they are different words with different meanings that are simply homophones.
    I don't like Nyrond as "lake province" (or satrapy, or land, or viceroyalty, or whatever) for two reasons:
    1. Ferrond shows that the doubled consonant is possible. So why not Nyrrond?
    2. As a province (or whatnot), the Nyrond at the time would have had little to no lake frontage (depending on how and when the Urnst borders and inclusion in the Great Kingdom is resolved), and significantly more bay frontage (on the Relmor Bay, into which the river that flows past Rel Mord city flows). Granted, I wouldn't want to live in Morrond province either, never mind coming to power there. But if the province is going to be named for a geographic feature, why not the one that seems to be named so similarly to the capital?
    If I had

    I agree about Dyv meaning lake, and Dyvers being Lakeside or something similar.
    Of course tAB decided that Dyvars means "deep water" and nyr and nehr are the same and mean lake, but that appears to have escaped someone's notice back then, especially since Nehron is said to have been on th Duntide River which flows into the aforementioned Relmor Bay, not the Nyr Dyv, and Urnst was one country comprising both the County and Duchy, and thus blocking all access to the lake of the country named for it. Fortunately I have an established history of ignoring such things, no matter how canon they may be. Cool
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    Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:59 am  

    Samwise, I am glad you got a kick out of that "Dynamic" and of course you are absolutely right about the reason for the existance of Common. And you expressed it in a very amusing style. That Robin Hood dynamic is quite useful when roleplaying NPCs. I wish I was better at it.

    To the extent that it is exclusive, I disagree that "Those who care for linguistic complexity will [necessarily?] wind changing that, ignoring or glossing over canon as desired." Except the "as desired" part, but then one might desire to play in Krynn.

    It could be said that those who care for linguistic complexity and canon will wind changing that, ignoring or glossing over canon and/or the understood dynamic of languages as desired or necessary for a plausably logical explaination.

    I think Kirt's call for a creative explaination, as well as Bugler and Barns's article, demonstrate that one can care for linguistic complexity while sticking to canon or at least explaining it. It perhaps requires more time and effort though to reconcile canon with earthly linguistic ideas and the degree to which either are sacrified can be varied. I doubt one can be 100% faithful to either, but I do not know.

    In any event, I for one think that Kirt is on to something by delving into the nature of Oeridian language as compared to Suloise for to justify the canon on Keoish and I think working through the compliexites of the formation of Common will shed light on the formation of Keoish.
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    Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:09 pm  

    Quote:
    I think Kirt's call for a creative explaination, as well as Bugler and Barns's article, demonstrate that one can care for linguistic complexity while sticking to canon or at least explaining it. It perhaps requires more time and effort though to reconcile canon with earthly linguistic ideas and the degree to which either are sacrified can be varied. I doubt one can be 100% faithful to either, but I do not know.


    Actually I think the article clearly demonstrates how people will both gloss over and ignore canon with gleeful abandon. It creates multiple languages, defies established conventions about several existing languages, creates writing systems out of whole cloth, and generally treat canon as little more than a vaguely useful starting point and source of proper names.
    I consider a significant influence on my decision that yes, I can run roughshod over whatever elements of canon that gets in the way or just plain offends my aesthetic sense.
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    Tue Sep 27, 2005 10:18 pm  

    Samwise wrote:
    Kirt wrote:
    Yes, my characterization was overly simplistic, of us both. I do think it was more-or-less fair


    Pretty much. I generally save my in-depth explanations of all the background reasoning for chat room sessions...or in response to specific questions


    I did say that you ignore or discredit canon when you don't like it. I did not say that your approach was whimsical. In fact, I even said it could be considered "sensible". I'm sure you have your reasons, and they are often quite complex and well-researched. All of those factors go into whether you "like" the canon or not. My point remains that your approach is exclusionary, ignoring canon that for your assuredly justifiable reasons you don't like. Whereas my approach is inclusive, seeking creative justfications to incorporate seemingly contradictory canon. And again, I am not trying to belittle your approach. I respect it. I am just saying that it is different from mine.

    Faced with the canon statement that Keolandish is mostly Oeridian, you say "that can't be correct" and give give numerous reasons why such a statement is not reasonable. In contrast, I say, "let's try to imagine how that could actually be correct - what else would have to be true?"

    Samwise wrote:

    Barring evidence to the contrary, I would say the Savant-Sage was also Aerdi for multiple reasons.
    First of course being that the area was ruled by the Aerdi at one time, including when the city was at its height.


    Yes, the area was ruled by the Aerdi. But at the time the Savant-Sage was writing it had been possibly 300 years since independence from the Great Kingdom. More importantly, the city was founded by the Suel.


    Samwise wrote:

    Second, proceeding from that, is that anyone who is sage is most likely from that former ruling class which was never displaced, and would continue to provide the scholarly class for centuries after that withdrawal.


    Possibly. But some scholars might have come from the former ruling class that was conquered by the Aerdi and relegated to being scholars rather than rulers. The fact that all legal matters in Greyhawk City (city records, court documents, court arguments, laws) are in Suelese attests that all the Suel scholars were not slaughtered or forced out of business when the Aerdi took over. I'm sure many modern lawyers are of Aerdi descent and learned Suloise just so that they could do their job. But that they HAVE to learn Suloise says that there was once a strong Suel scholarly tradition.

    Samwise wrote:

    Third is that a known Aerdi scholar found little to correct in it.


    Fair enough. Although the nature of the Glossography (facts and figures) shows that Smedger was more interested in bean counting than historical narrative.

    Samwise wrote:

    Fourth is that it is never stated just how much of the Guide reflects the changes made by Pluffet Smedger as opposed to being purely the work of the Savant-Sage.


    Actually, there is no indication that Smedger changed anything, he simply added a companion volume. His Glossography is said to "accompany" the "surviving text". If you like, you can say that means there was nothing there he would have changed, and thus that the Savant Sage's biases were the same as Smedgers. Or, it could be that Smedger was interested in other areas or had the scholarly integretity to let the Guide stand by itself, even when he disagreed with it.

    Samwise wrote:

    Fifth would be questioning just how much the Savant-Sage also knew about linguistics as well as geography, history, and more.


    Fair enough. But this could blow either way. Lack of knowledge just means we are more uncertain about his bias, not that we are more certain
    he was Aerdi.

    You can use this argument to cast doubt on his pronouncements about the roots of Keolandish. But then the same arguments can be used to cast doubt on his statement that Keoland is mostly Suel.

    Samwise wrote:

    Finally, and most important, by establishing and accepting the basic material as being written by the Savant-Sage, it sets the stage for everything to be have been written with bias or lack of complete information, and thus not absolute and incontrovertible.


    True. Again, this does not support your postion that he was Aerdi. It merely means that we have more latitude to argue about whether he WAS Aerdi, and less chance of resolving that argument.

    Samwise wrote:

    It is one I proposed several years ago after noting that the Vel/Ver/Dyv/A River flows past VELuna/VERbobonc/DYVers.


    Never noticed that myself. Embarassed Good call.

    Samwise wrote:

    As for Ny and Nyr, I would think they are different words with different meanings that are simply homophones.


    That would be easier.

    Samwise wrote:

    Of course tAB decided that Dyvars means "deep water" and nyr and nehr are the same and mean lake, but that appears to have escaped someone's notice back then,


    That is unfortunate. I don't have a copy of TAB, so have never noticed that.

    Samwise wrote:

    especially since Nehron is said to have been on th Duntide River which flows into the aforementioned Relmor Bay, not the Nyr Dyv, and Urnst was one country comprising both the County and Duchy, and thus blocking all access to the lake of the country named for it.


    Although the Urnst states WERE once part of Nyrond, so Nyrond's name could derrive from a feature in the Urnst area. It would be ironic that when the Urnst states got their independence from Nyrond, Nyrond lost access to the very lake for which it had been named. But no more ironic than the Salt Lake City basketball team being called "The Jazz". Or the Holy Roman Empire not including Rome (or being holy, or an empire...)Historical Legacies are strange.

    Samwise wrote:

    Fortunately I have an established history of ignoring such things, no matter how canon they may be. Cool


    Hey, you said it...
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    Wed Sep 28, 2005 11:47 am  

    Quote:
    Faced with the canon statement that Keolandish is mostly Oeridian, you say "that can't be correct" and give give numerous reasons why such a statement is not reasonable. In contrast, I say, "let's try to imagine how that could actually be correct - what else would have to be true?"


    The problem is, sometimes even that search leads to a conclusion that the canon statement must be "wrong". (Or at least strongly contra-indicated.) Case in point, Keoish, where even the standards you present to explain it are, as I showed, unlikely to support an Oeridian base for the language.
    When even the best attempts don't provide a reasonable answer, you are left with creating your own.

    Quote:
    More importantly, the city was founded by the Suel.


    Going to tAB again, technically the village was founded by the Suel. It was turned into a city by the Oeridians.

    Quote:
    You can use this argument to cast doubt on his pronouncements about the roots of Keolandish. But then the same arguments can be used to cast doubt on his statement that Keoland is mostly Suel.


    Yes indeed.
    And in fact I use the same arguments to cast doubt on a great deal of the racial assertions made. Case in point, the lack of Flan in the Great Kingdom area. Combining the statement that the rulers of the Great Kingdom are highly conscious of their lighter skin tone, which would be rather absurd if the lower classes are only a mix of Oeridians and Suel, with a river bearing the name Flanmi, and it would be outrageous to think that the racial composition is just OS or Os and not OSf or Osf.
    (And I might note, that leads to one of the flaws in that excellent language article, wherein it is suggested the Flan didn't settle southeast of the Duntide River. Given how rich the lands are, while agriculturalists might have been blocked from expanding, hunters would not have, so such a limit is simply not credible.)

    Quote:
    Although the Urnst states WERE once part of Nyrond, so Nyrond's name could derrive from a feature in the Urnst area. It would be ironic that when the Urnst states got their independence from Nyrond, Nyrond lost access to the very lake for which it had been named. But no more ironic than the Salt Lake City basketball team being called "The Jazz". Or the Holy Roman Empire not including Rome (or being holy, or an empire...)Historical Legacies are strange.


    Except that at the time is was Nehron, Urnst was independent. (We are talking pre-GK.)
    And the Holy Roman Empire did include Rome, was Holy, and was an Empire. Technically. It included Rome, although control of that city and the Romagna had been ceded to the See. Multiple wars were fought to assert this control. It was Holy, as the ruler was crowned by the Pope on divine authority. Multiple wars were fought over that as well. And it was an empire, as it contained multiple ethnic and cultural groups, united into a single political entity. And yes, you guessed it, multiple wars were fought over that too. So it wasn't very good at being Holy, ruling Rome, or holding together as an Empire, but it was technically all three.
    (And is used to model several concept in Keoland as well.)
    So yes, historical legacies are quite strange, but not strange enough to include "Lake-Land" (or whatever the "ron/rond" suffix is supposed to mean) not having any lake-front property to invest in. (That it turns Dyvers into "Waterdeep" and makes the Ny Dyv "Lake Deep" is just icing on the cake to let the cats hawk up hairballs on that bit of linguistic legerdemain.)

    Quote:
    Hey, you said it...


    I never deny it. Happy
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    Sat Oct 01, 2005 5:59 pm  

    Hey. I can't hope to address the discussion point-by-point, but I just reviewed the pertinent passage from the WoG and want to contribute to our discussion of the Common Tongue and Keolandish. I'll cite to smillan_31's The Development of the Common Tongue first. See http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=732.

    Reviewing the WoG, I see that the text suggests that the people of what AshtarX used to call "Civilized Bakluna" may well speak Common rather than Ancient Baklunish. While the LGG eschews this suggestion and innovates the notion of "Low Baklunish," this idea is not necessarily prescribed because the WoG only mentions the Paynims when it discusses speakers of Ancient Baklunish.

    Also, reviewing the WoG holding that Keolandish is widespread somewhat surprisingly indicates that the Common Tongue need not be so common in the Kingdom of Keoland. Indeed, the WoG indicates that Common is "new." One might hold that age to coincide with the Common Years calendar or make it relatively younger. In years past, Woesinger and others discussed this very issue on GreyTalk. IIRC, we braided this discussion to threads about civilization, commerce, and culture. In particular, I recall the CY 300s to have been important--because of the invasion of what was later called the Brazen Horde, Keoland's brief conquest of Ket, and the trade that evolved in relation to these and lesser power shifts.

    Leaving the Common Tongue and focusing on Keolandish, I don't have a problem with Keolandish being an old tribal Oeridian dialect that later developed into its own language because of my old belief that Oeridians predominated amongst the commoners of Keoland. While I've lately acknowledged that canon doesn't completely support this idea, reviewing the WoG reminds me of one source that I used to develop my old belief.

    Woesinger and Samwise have debated the adaptability of Ancient Suloise and Old Oeridian, so I don't need to rehash their arguments. The WoG holds that Ancient Suloise is relatively rare. The City of Greyhawk boxed set and subsequent works, e.g., tAB, hold that Ancient Suloise was the preferred language of the courts. Having recently read Gygax's Gord the Rogue series, I now find the CoG problematic because it appears to have been published in competition with Gygax's novels and his version of the City of Greyhawk.

    I didn't find the use of Ancient Suloise convincing originally but did find tAB's ideas persuasive, i.e., that Suel first founded "Greyhawk." Now, however, I see that my original sense was better. The courts of Greyhawk should use Old Oeridian not Ancient Suloise because the establishment of the Landgraf of Selintan was an act of Aerdy's law and would have been recorded in Old Oeridian (or in proto-Common) in accord with the Great Kingdom's convention. Likely this was Old Oeridian if the temples of Delleb served. If the church of Zilchus was predominant, then the Common Tongue may have been preferred.

    Okay that's enough for one post. I'll try to review the previous ones again and post some more, but those Olman threads are beckoning--as well as Samwise's description of the Insurrection of the Yaheetes!
    GreySage

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    Mon Oct 24, 2005 6:31 pm  

    Samwise wrote:
    We might surmise that there is a magical gap to be breached, presuming that the non-literate Oeridian barbarians could produce only sorcerors or the equivalent. In which case that would form a stronger suggestion that Suloise be adopted as the primary language to cover that gap.


    Keoland went through a period of extreme prejudice against "freemages," when it openly persecuted those outside the noble houses who would attempt magical learning. If Suloise was seen as the language of magic, might there not have been an active attempt to suppress it among the common people?

    SOf means that, while there might be slightly more Suel than Oerid blood in the land, they're still both dominant ethnicities. If those commoners who spoke Suloise in public were flogged, put in stocks, or had their tongues cut out, I can see Oeridian quickly becoming the language of choice.
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:01 am  

    [quote="rasgon"]
    Samwise wrote:
    Keoland went through a period of extreme prejudice against "freemages," when it openly persecuted those outside the noble houses who would attempt magical learning. If Suloise was seen as the language of magic, might there not have been an active attempt to suppress it among the common people?

    SOf means that, while there might be slightly more Suel than Oerid blood in the land, they're still both dominant ethnicities. If those commoners who spoke Suloise in public were flogged, put in stocks, or had their tongues cut out, I can see Oeridian quickly becoming the language of choice.


    Ah, but see "The Yaheetes and Tyrus" for the origins of that prejudice, as well as the various other subtle comments about the Silent Ones.

    It wasn't an issue of the Suel being seen as evil practitioners of magic, but rather a combination of the horrific necromantic uprising of the Hand and Eye of Vecna, combined with the desire of the Silent Ones to monopolize magic.
    The first produced an utter terror of anyone using "unlicensed" magic.
    The second was ready to step up with their own method of "licensing" magic.

    Also you must consider the degree of mixing. The Suel and Oeridians did not suddenly intermix with casual abandon, although the population density would certainly have allowed for it. Instead they each selected their own areas, and took several centuries to fully intermix. That is why I noted Keoish as only becoming the "official" language in 477 KC (135 CY). It took awhile for the languages to mix so thoroughly.
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    Sat Dec 10, 2005 11:13 pm  

    The Timeline part deux is up at last, but I think the end got cut off or something. Someone in the know check on that please.
    Master Greytalker

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    Sun Dec 11, 2005 7:53 am  

    Gah!

    Yes it is. It seems the entires for the post-GH Wars got clipped.

    The horror!


    As an extra note, in case anyone is confused by the dates, I decided another reference would help. The dates are now:
    [real world comparison] (Common Year) unnamed Keoish dating system

    I am slowly converting most of my internal thinking to Keoish dating, and referring to the Xth Keoish Century rather than CY terminology.
    GreySage

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    Sun Dec 11, 2005 5:58 pm  

    The Tavish III entry is clipped as well.


    Interesting that Tavish II was contemporary with George III of England.
    Master Greytalker

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    Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:01 am  

    mtg wrote:

    I ask because I tend to agree with Paul that the Oeridian dialect of Keolandish seems a fine way to help explain the name of Keoland. While I've corresponded with Paul in the past (on GT) about his ideas about the formation of the Common Tongue, I've also never considered the Suel to be predominant in any region of the Flanaess.


    This is not the Woesinger you are looking for.
    I believe that's Kirt who made the comments earlier in this thread. :D

    I do, however, remember our chats on GT about Common. I've since revised my thesis, pushing the origins of Common back to before the Migrations. More on that in an article next year, perhaps...
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    Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:49 am  

    Just to throw my cat among the linguistic pigeons... :)

    1: The use of Ancient Sueloise in Greyhawk. My explanation for that is that the Aerdi were, like all clever imperialists, tolerant of local customs, especially out on the fringes of the empire, where there was a significant non-Oerid population. At least they were once they'd secured their heartlands and had become more enlightened (as opposed to the way they crushed states like Ehlissa, Sueloise Onnwal and the Tyrants of the Trask beneath their booted heel in the early phases of their expansion). Other examples of this would be the Palatinate status of Urnst (where the Aerdi seemed content not to monkey with the culture or internal organisation of Urnst - shrewdly recognising that to do so invited certain rebellion) and the apparent tolerance of Flan customs in Tenh (which admittedly was more of a client state than an actual province).

    2: Common - my current line on this, as stated elsewhere, is that it, at least in a proto-form, predated the Migrations where it served as a linguistic interface between the Oerids of Ull and the Bakluni (as well as between Oerid tribes). It was then carried east into the Flanaess with the Migrants and was established as a de facto Common tongue in two thirds of the Flanaess by the conquests of the Aerdi (it might have originally have been called Low Oeridian or Low Aerdi - but due to its ubiquity, it became called by its current name). It might be "new" in Keoland, which had it's own "common tongue" - Keoish, but would have slowly absorbed Common through contacts with the Aerdi and their successor states.

    3: Keoish. I have to say I kind of like a blend of Kirt's and Sam's take on this. Let's look at English as a model - English is a fusion of Germanic Anglo-Saxon and French (which introduced elements of Latin), reflecting the various invasions of the island of Britain.

    For Keoish - I can see something similar. It's a mix of a dialect of Old Oeridian and Sueloise, making it neither one nor the other (this reduces Kirt and Sam's debate to an academic argument about which language added more to the fusion - a debate which no doubt rages in the scholarly circles of the Flanaess). The Oerid faction of sages (represented here by Kirt) claim that Oeridian is the foundation; the Suel faction (personified by Sam) say Sueloise is -each for the reasons presented here.

    Other, more diplomatic, scholars (like myself, in the minority) might suggest that while the language is possibly more Suel than Oerid (using Suel vocabulary for words not present in tribal Old Oeridian - as Sam pointed out), it was chiefly adopted by the Keogh Oerids of the central and western Keoish heartlands as a linguistic bridge, the reason being that the Rhola and the Neheli disdained what they saw as a pidgin tongue and prefered the language of the old Imperium (just as the Norman barons spoke French in England). Similarly, the Oerids subbornly refused to give up their language entirely (though the Oerid nobles would of course have used the language of the court and the Oerids showed more flexibility than some of the Suel). Though the tongue became more widespread over the centuries, it was still seen as a Keogh-ish language - hence its name: Keoish.

    There's also the theory that Keoish is a label applied by foreigners. Aerdi scholars looking at a tongue native to Keoland might, in ignorance of its lingusitic pedigree label it Keoish.

    P.
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    Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:55 pm  

    Great Job Samwise!

    Any chance of posting the "clipped" sections of part II ?

    Just curious...
    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:43 am  

    Crag wrote:
    Great Job Samwise!

    Any chance of posting the "clipped" sections of part II ?

    Just curious...


    Gary is working on it. It will either get added, or a separate small Part III will be created.
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