As many of you know, I consider one of the most essential things to protect and safeguard in Greyhawk is its medieval technology level. I don't want my beloved world (or at least my version of it) to suffer an industrial revolution and the eventual consequences described by Woesinger in a previous post on technology.
As a result, apparel and technology that is out of place (Murlynd's Wild West apparel and technology, the starship of the Barrier Peaks, the Machine of Lum the Mad), is something I have a problem with. Given that these sorts of apparel and devices have no place in a proper (at least by my own standards, which no one else has to adhere to) Greyhawk campaign, I'm left with a problem. How does a Greyhawk Luddite like me reconcile these elements of canon with his desire to protect the versimilitude of his world?
A potential arises in...the 'shrooms, dude. Murlynd was a powerful sorcerer, but he also heavily indulged in poppy juice, mushrooms and fungal extracts imported from the four corners of the oerth, and all that other stuff. As a result, his mind never really functioned properly...his apparel and the way in which he cast his magic were the products of a brain fried by drug abuse. He was otherwise perfectly lucid and sane, but whatever part of Murlynd's brain controlled how he dressed himself and how he cast his magic pretty much burned out.
Same thing with the "Expedition to the Barrier Peaks"; the whole business of a 'starship', or 'a metal boat that flew among the stars' as it is properly known, came about when a wandering bard whose party was passing through the general area made the mistake of sampling some of the herbs and mushrooms in the area. The nightmares and visions he had rival anything out of a Pink Floyd video or any other funky psychedelic images/special effects you can name. His visions of strange forms of armor (or, as we would call them, space suits), ships made of metal that came down from the stars, and all that other weird stuff was just that...a vision. It never really happened.
However, ever since the bard spread his experiences as if they were real truth, the silly rumors have begun to spread that there actually was a "metal boat" floating around up there. Explorers who have since traveled up there have confirmed that such a thing never really happened, although the priests of Celestian still established a holy shrine there. Even if nothing ever really appeared there, the visions and trances you can enjoy among the starry heavens among some of the highest peaks in all the Flanaess really allow you to "space out" anyway. Some followers of Celestian claim that the god and his otherworldly servants speak to them while they are in trance up there.
As for the Machine of Lum the Mad, the thing is simply so bizarre that most people, even many gnomes, simply don't know what to make of the blasted thing. The matters of little bits of metal that can be rearranged on the machine (switches, levers and dials, we call them) make absolutely no sense to any sane individual that has studied them, and the unpredictable and bizarre effects that result from playing with these bits of metal lead many people to believe it was created by demons under the influence of some bizarre substance.
The approach I'm taking is two-fold. First, I'm describing these things as people from the Middle/Dark Ages would probably describe them; as a sign of madness, evil magic, or some other sinister thing. Describing the starship as a "large boat of metal that comes down from the stars", and space suits as "bizarre suits of armor", are how I imagine what most medieval people would interpret these things to be. As to the sources of the weirdness that gives rise to these rumors and manifestations of madnes...it's the 'shrooms, man. None of that 'technology' stuff is real, it never happened, and it never will. People IRL hallucinate about freaky stuff when they're high on whatever it is they take; who says fantasy characters can't do the same?
The questions I'm asking are: 1) If you have this problem, how do you deal with it? and 2) would this explanation really be believable? I'm trying to reconcile the canon in question with the need to prevent an industrial revolution in Greyhawk. I don't want Oerth going the way of Middle Earth and having magic fade, the demihumans die out, and humanity as the only surviving race, creating an industrialized and modern society. _________________ <div align="left">Going to war without Keoland is like going to war without a pipe organ. They both make a lot of noise and they're both a lot of dead weight, so what's the point in taking them along? </div>
I don't want my Greyhawk to "modernize" either, but I'm not worried about it. It's not gonna happen.
First the canon refs you mention. IMC, they are real, but they are anomalies. Murlynd's description specifically says that his guns only work on Oerth because of his personal (quasi-diety) aura. Gunpowder does not work on Oerth. Even if Murlynd's guns were taken and copied, they would not work in the hands of anyone else.
My players have not yet done Barrier Peaks, but they may. They might get lucky and find a few caches of weapons and if they are *really* lucky, some armor. So what? Most of it is less damage or worse armor than they can do with their own magic items. About the only thing my PC's would be interested in is the grenades. And all of that stuff has charges...a few uses and it is gone. I rule that it can't be copied. It is too complex and uses too many materials not found on Oerth. So no disruption there either. Unless there was a steady stream of alien spacecraft landing on earth, it would not provoke an industrial revolution. And one spacecraft alone is insuffient-
If there if going to be an industrial revolution on oeath, it will have to happen the way it did on earth. First an agricultural revolution, then slow cultural transformation. And that is highly unlikeky for a number of reasons.
1. The existence of monsters, demons, etc. means that society is constantly threatened. The very existance of civilization is constantly threatened. This will preserve feudalism and prevent central authority and nation states from developing.
2. The existence of magic will retard science and technological progress. Magic is far superior to technology in achieving results, but it can not be mass-produced.
3. The dangers of travel and trade will retard the development of banking houses and international mercantile enterprises. Any venture which accumulates enough funds to invest will be beset by theives, evil mages, dragons, etc. until they are spending their profits protecting themselves, not investing in technology.
4. The existence of "levels" means that a few elite fighters (mages, etc) will always be able to beat an army of rabble. No trend to centralized power, divine right kings, etc. Again, feudalism stays.
Even if industrial technology is possible on Oerth, Oerth will never achieve the social conditions necessary for an industrial revolution. The twin forces of magic and monsters, as long as they dominate the world will keep the world locked in a fuedal economy.
And the social conditions are everything. Individual inventions existed long before they became important because the social conditions necessary were not present. The ancient world had wet cell batteries, gearing systems, and steam engines. At most they were used for the toys of nobles. The pre-columbian New World had wheels, again on toys. But without draft animals there was no incentive to develop carts, wheeled plows, etc. An invention outside the propper social context is a mere curiosity, not an agent of change.
Rest easy, Cruel Summer Lord. You world need not fear technology. _________________ My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
Another strong obstacle to industrialization would be the divine aspect of GH.
The Gods both Good and Evil including the various demons would logically see industrialization as a threat to their worldviews and power.
As for the various aspects you mentioned (Barrier Peaks and Machine of Lum the Mad), Kirt arguements are very convincing, the advanced spaceship weapons can't be reproduced and the local power structures (nobles,wizards and priests) could see the PCs as dangerous revolutionaries for possessing the weapons especially if the Gods send messages to the faithful to destroy the unoerth items and the heretics.
Lum the Mad didn't get his name for his temper, his machine has been falling into disrepair since his death despite the best efforts of the Great Kingdoms brightest and massive resources available the "experts" still don't understand it enough even to maintain the machine let alone reproduce it.
The Gods both Good and Evil including the various demons would logically see industrialization as a threat to their worldviews and power.
In general yes, but not in all cases. Bralm is about industriousness so by implication anything that makes worshippers more productive like technology would be wanted. In the LGJ the former demi-god of ancient Itar, was once about ingenuity and progress, his temporary death in combat during a war with Sulm has changed his outlook into revenge for the past rather than looking to the future. It is worth pondering what Itar's tech level once was with a benevolent demi-god actively working with and defending them. Think the land of Iuz but progressive and stable. I bet Sulm, evil worshipping at the core was jealous of Itar's burgeoning technology (albeit anything from agricultural to architectural advances) and the resulting war dashed that possible civilization. This of course would keep in line with the above quote that a god could supress industrialization if it threatened them.
If there if going to be an industrial revolution on oeath, it will have to happen the way it did on earth. First an agricultural revolution, then slow cultural transformation. And that is highly unlikeky for a number of reasons.
1. The existence of monsters, demons, etc. means that society is constantly threatened. The very existance of civilization is constantly threatened. This will preserve feudalism and prevent central authority and nation states from developing.
2. The existence of magic will retard science and technological progress. Magic is far superior to technology in achieving results, but it can not be mass-produced.
3. The dangers of travel and trade will retard the development of banking houses and international mercantile enterprises. Any venture which accumulates enough funds to invest will be beset by theives, evil mages, dragons, etc. until they are spending their profits protecting themselves, not investing in technology.
4. The existence of "levels" means that a few elite fighters (mages, etc) will always be able to beat an army of rabble. No trend to centralized power, divine right kings, etc. Again, feudalism stays.
Even if industrial technology is possible on Oerth, Oerth will never achieve the social conditions necessary for an industrial revolution. The twin forces of magic and monsters, as long as they dominate the world will keep the world locked in a fuedal economy.
And the social conditions are everything. Individual inventions existed long before they became important because the social conditions necessary were not present. The ancient world had wet cell batteries, gearing systems, and steam engines. At most they were used for the toys of nobles. The pre-columbian New World had wheels, again on toys. But without draft animals there was no incentive to develop carts, wheeled plows, etc. An invention outside the propper social context is a mere curiosity, not an agent of change.
Rest easy, Cruel Summer Lord. You world need not fear technology.
I reply seriatim for ease of response.
(1) No doubt society is constantly threatened by monsters but that threat is largely stabilized. It is a norm within which society functions and rather well. If monsters truly threatened society, without a stable norm, even medieval levels of civilization would be difficult to maintain. Society would likely either devolve into tribalism or evolve into highly organized and centerally controlled states which could martial the resources to check the monsters.
In any event, the present threat posed by monsters hardly dictates feudalism, as far as I can see. Canon is replete with non-feudal models to meaningfully include very centeralized power structures. While there is an ebb and flow to political structures in Greyhawk, I do not think the feudal model has proven to be so successful that it will necessarily be enduring. It merely predominates at the moment, awaiting future developments.
(2) Magic will not retard science and technology for precisely the reasons you note. It cannot be mass produced. It is also inherently unreliable. It cannot be meaningfully applied to everyday tasks and eventually someone will look to build a better mousetrap. Magic may slow the rate of scientific and technological development but ultimately science and technology, the poor man's magic, will begin to make inroads, likely in the most mundane sorts of ways that will make the most economic sense.
Mechanical devices already exist. Those gears, levels and pulleys need only the application of an independent power source - an engine - to move from the mechanical to mechanization. Steam is a known commodity, in boiling kettles if nothing else. It takes little to imagine steam as a sort of wind that might fill sails and move a boat; it is only the nature of the sail that must be devised as steam is not wind and the boat to be moved profitably.
(3) The dangers of trade and travel will not retard the growth of international trade and banking houses.
It is a matter of supply and demand and this, in turn, is something of a function of population. When population levels reach a certain point, local supplies will likely prove insufficient to meet local needs. Abundant materials will then be traded for materials that are more scare locally but abundant elsewhere. Luxury goods will then further spur this most mundane sort of resource reallocation trade.
Banking house are, then, inevitable. The transport of large amounts of wealth over long distances is unsafe and unweildly. Banking houses address this situation with letters of credit etc.
The fantasy tropes of evil mages, dragons and preternaturally rapatious thieve's guilds etc. may alter the equation but they will not retard international trade and trading/banking houses. Capital accumulation by a merchant class is unlikely to be in liquid form, easily absconded with. Rather, the means of capital generation will be accumulated by all but the paranoid stuffing their mattresses or the most miserly and reclusive, both of whom are unlikely captains of finance or industry. What is more likely is that these super intelligent or financially savy agencies will seek control over capital generation, skimming the profits in the case of dragons so they have something to sit on, at least until they come to value joint stock certificates, which are softer.
(4) The existence of levels and elite types means only that Saddam's army didn't stand a chance, but it is a lot tougher holding and controlling the ground with just elites. Powerful elites will put rabble to route but smart and powerful elites will look to ally with popular movements because that support is essential to winning the peace. Feudalism is not even an issue. Broad based popular movements, military or not, will continue to develop and will doubtless find powerful patrons whose interests are served by supporting such movements. Such movements may be within or outside a feudal context.
The lack of a "divine right of kings," if anything, cuts against the feudal model. The paramilitary basis for feudalism only goes so far, after that, the notion of a divinely ordained ruling class helps keep the system going by providing an alternative logic. In the Flanaess, the feudal nobility, even with elite "leveled" personel, need masses of troops to counter the masses of (usually) humanoid opposition. As the paramilitary function of feudalism immediately post-Migration wanes, the lack of a divine right of kings will hurt feudalism's chances of survival. To fill this void, the nobles will likely seek to control wealth (mercantilism) as a means of preserving their special status, further eroding pure feudalism.
The social conditions you speak of as ensuring feudalism simply do not exist in an unalterable state. If they ever did, the Greyhawk Wars altered the equation permanently. The GH Wars were essentially a world war. It was an international war with international impulses and consequences that has left the Flanaess with an altered sense of itself. The horizon is no longer the limit of even the peasant's world. Dad went off to war and he came back having seen and experienced a wider world. As they sang after WWI, "How you gonna keep 'em down on the farm, after they've seen Paris?" Whole peoples are displaced, shaking up established societies (but not so greatlyas to threaten the basic level of civilization). One religion saved the day and put the fiends to flight, drawing into question other faiths. The Moulquand (sp), Scarlet Brotherhood and Knights of the Hart etc. are inherently international organizations, and the Moulquand (sp) have a specifically mercantile purpose. I can imagine the SB and Knights of the Hart becoming the powers behind international financial networks, much like the Knights Templar, with the Moulquand(sp) as an example, or emerging rival.
I agree that social conditions are everything but I those conditions are far more elastic than you set out.
In all this, I am not suggesting that I want a modernized, technological Flanaess. I do not. However, neither am I content to say that fantasy tropes and their setting specific elaborations guarantee an unalterable pseudo-medieval society marked by feudalism. I think there are several ways to go.
One might declare a pseudo-medieval feudal society by fiat - deus ex machina (ironically). The gods of Greyhawk are real. They might well act to preserve what they believe to be an idealized state, perhaps not wishing men to make gods of machines, that enshrine man's ingenuity over the gods' divinity.
Looking to society, one might give more play to druidic ideals etc. and have people reject technological innovation. Tree-hugging Luddities, as it were.
Most interestingly, one might postulate how society might evolve, how feudalism might evolve.
Alternatively, one might not worry about it. Feudalism or its active remnants existed for nearly 1200 years in Europe. Greyhawk has a ways to go before, unless you take literally the introduction to the 83 Glosography, in which case, "canon" decrees an end to magic, after which one can only guess what will take its place.
I do not mean to be dismissive of the basic point that Greyhawk works best as a pseudo-medieval society but I do not think the argument that it must inherently continue to be so holds water. If Greyhawk is to continue as a pseudo-medieval society, some greater explanation is, I think, necessary.
I did not mean to imply that a Greyhawk locked in feudalism is the only option. Under the right conditions, there could be technological advancement, as GVD points out. That is one possible way to go.
I merely meant to claim that such an outcome is NOT inevitable. CSL's initial worry was that Greyhawk MUST develop technologically. I was making a case that this was not necessarily inevitable. It is one possibility, but it is not the only possibility.
Much of how culture, science, and technology would develop depends on conditions that are not explicit in the setting. They are largely up to the DM's control. My point was simply that if you do not want Greyhawk to "advance", you do not have to invent torturously contrived explanations or feel embarrassed about your desires as "unrealistic". There are perfectly reasonable scenaraarios in which technological advancement would be very slow or null. There are other scenarios in which technological advancement would be very rapid. Both are reasonable, given the right conditions, and a DM is free to impose the conditions necessary to bring about the kind of world desired.
As an example, the level of monsters in the world. By monsters I mean anything basically inmical to humanity in general. Humanoids, brute monsters, drow, demons, etc. As GVD points out, if these are too abundant, even a feudal society is not stable and will first collapse to tribalism and then probably be hunted out of existence. On the other hand, if monsters are too few, then society is more free to develop centralized power and nation states. If they are "just right", then over the long haul a level of feudalism is maintained, as kingdoms coalesce but later break down when they are unable to defend remote areas. And the level of "monster activity" in the world is not dictated by any campaign guide, it is a personal decision of each DM.
As a (simplified) real world illustration, many anthropologists believe that 50000 years ago all humans in our world lived in Africa. The ancestors of everyone not now African left about 50000 years ago, taking with them a stone age technology. By 1500 AD, Eurasia was in a pre-modern state, with steel, fire arms, nation states, and plowed agriculture. Sub-saharan Africa was in the iron age, with forged iron, and plowless agriculture. The americas were in the Bronze age, with plowless agriculture. Australia was still in the stone age, with only the beginnings of agriculture. And the natives of Tasmania, who had once had had the level of technology of the Australians, had lost even that and "reverted" to pretty much the same state of development as their ancestors had when they left Africa.
All of these people were equally human, equally smart, and equally ingenuitive. But the "advancement" of technology is neither inevitable or on some predictable schedule. It happened at different rates, or even "went backwards" based on some social characteristics and accidents of history but primarily on the physical environment in which the different peoples found themselves. In your campaign, you as a DM control those physcial characteristics, which means that you are free to determine the pace of "advancement" that you desire. _________________ My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
Technological advances are driven by what?
Mostly need, rarely pure genius.
In a setting where magic and divinity are obvious and rampant, the needs "modern" tech fill are really limited.
As the leader of a military nation, how do you most effectively defend your beloved country? Pour thousands of gps into R&D to build firearms that may or may not do the job? Or do you supply your Wizard's Auxillary with Fireball Wands, and spend the extra gold on magic arms and armor for the regulars?
Magic can be used to to all of the things "modernization" can be, plus some.
Need better food production? Talk to the Druids.
Need better safer long distance travel? Talk to the Wizards and Sorcerers.
Doctors? Not as useful as clerics and healers.
Magic trumps tech. The argument could even be made that certain "Medieval" technologies are redundant in the face of magic and divine interaction. _________________ I am the thought you are now thinking.
"The trees are our ancestors."----Otto Von Bismark
Magic can be used to to all of the things "modernization" can be, plus some.
Need better food production? Talk to the Druids.
Need better safer long distance travel? Talk to the Wizards and Sorcerers.
Doctors? Not as useful as clerics and healers.
True, but as I think was mentioned before, technology is the poor man's magic. As far as campaign settings go IMO, GH falls a tier behind FR and even Eberron in magic based civilizations. Even then, the aloof druids don't provide for all, the wizards can be stingy with sharing their magic too and there isnt enough clerics to go around, especially when people are split along panthon lines.
Magic can be used to to all of the things "modernization" can be, plus some.
Need better food production? Talk to the Druids.
Need better safer long distance travel? Talk to the Wizards and Sorcerers.
Doctors? Not as useful as clerics and healers.
True, but as I think was mentioned before, technology is the poor man's magic. As far as campaign settings go IMO, GH falls a tier behind FR and even Eberron in magic based civilizations. Even then, the aloof druids don't provide for all, the wizards can be stingy with sharing their magic too and there isnt enough clerics to go around, especially when people are split along panthon lines.
I believe the opposite, Mortellan. Magic is for the poor man. Technology is an immense drain on resources, top down. A third level cleric can seem a demigod in a remote mountain village. And pantheon "rivalries" can guarantee all temples provide basic humanitarian services(healing, feeding the indegent, etc.), because not doing so means that temple is not competing for devotees.
Wizards can be stingy, but a Wiz or two on the Duke's payroll means life is easier across the fiefdom.
The quasi-Medieval nature of Greyhawk is safe so long as magic reigns supreme. _________________ I am the thought you are now thinking.
"The trees are our ancestors."----Otto Von Bismark
Technological advances are driven by what?
Mostly need, rarely pure genius.
In a setting where magic and divinity are obvious and rampant, the needs "modern" tech fill are really limited.
As the leader of a military nation, how do you most effectively defend your beloved country? Pour thousands of gps into R&D to build firearms that may or may not do the job? Or do you supply your Wizard's Auxillary with Fireball Wands, and spend the extra gold on magic arms and armor for the regulars?
Magic can be used to to all of the things "modernization" can be, plus some.
Need better food production? Talk to the Druids.
Need better safer long distance travel? Talk to the Wizards and Sorcerers.
Doctors? Not as useful as clerics and healers.
Magic trumps tech. The argument could even be made that certain "Medieval" technologies are redundant in the face of magic and divine interaction.
This is my personal "great fear" in any discussion about technology - a too common resort to magic.
Continual light street lights.
Constables armed with wands of lightening bolts (really nasty tasers), magic missles (bullets), stinking clouds (pepper spray) and web or sleep spells (non-lethal capture weapons).
Divination spells are used to solve crimes. "Truth tell" or detect lie spells are used in courts to compel testimony. Know alignment spells are a standard screening tool in all noble courts.
Criminals (or "undesireables") are subject to enchantments, geas, change alignment or polymorphs ("For the crime of cattle theft, I hearby sentence you to 5 years as a dairy cow").
Long distance travel is handled by teleport.
Food is no longer grown, except by the very poor, living at a subsistance level. Clerics create food for all their co-religionists, as a demonstration of their god's power and to earn income for the church. They heal the same way, making natural healers obsolete to all but poor atheists or heathens.
Militaries have no need of infantry. They use golems.
Militaries have no need for artillery (of any stripe). They use fireballs (often cast by invisible flying wizards).
Militaries have no need for cavalry. They use summoned (you choose your swift moving, hard hitting creature).
Air superiority is a priority (how medieval is that?)
Tailors use mend spells. Create item and permanency handle manufactures. Sure. The magic can be dispelled but I can make your computer data go away just as surely. Impermanent permanance is no impediment to wide spread adoption of such.
Welcome to MagicHawk! My personal Greyhawk nightmare!
I like Greyhawk's medievalism and feudalism but it is a choice, not a requirement, not even implicitly so.
I think a sprinkling of various technologies beyond the medieval add spice to the setting. Greyhawk would be poorer, IMO, without S3, Murylynd, "star metal cairns," Robilar's mechanical horse, the Mighty Servant of Leuk-O etc.
What bothers me is "magic inflation," particularly as a justification for medievalism or feudalism. If I wanted that I could play FR, where magic is very prevalent, or Eberron, where magic is technology.
I think it was Author C. Clark who said, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." I think the reverse is practically true in a roleplaying game - Any sufficiently advanced (or commonplace) magic is indistinguishable from technology.
IMO, magic can not be systemitized, standardized, reliably replicated or mass produced. It is an art, not a science. Its art relies on the particular skill and genius (more or less inspired or creative) of the wizard, and not everyone with sufficient intelligence can become a wizard, even with the best training (just like all the art school or music lessons will not produce someone who can become a practicing artist or musician). A high degree of intelligence does not mean one can automatically become a wizard with proper training and access to materials or knowledge. It takes something more, an indefinable quality that allows the wizard to impose his or her will on reality through non-physical forces (outside the laws of physics etc) that are called "magic."
The rules say - you got the mind; you got the magic. That is metagame thinking. It does not impact a setting, unless the DM wishes it to be so.
Looking at the objective evidence in Greyhawk, the ironically named "canon" (which is technically too advanced for Greyhawk and arguably would not work for want of servicable gunpowder), there is little evidence of wide spread magic use. Simple tunneling makes one a Mage of Power (Slerotin). All the above listed potential overuses of magic do not appear.
If there appears to be a great deal of magic in Greyhawk, capable of almost anything on any scale, it is something of an illusion. Call it, "The Mick Jagger Effect." If you are Mick Jagger, the world is full of rock stars, supermodels, high fashion mavens, art collectors, Playboy playmates and wealthy jetsetters. Oh, yes. And nobility. That is SIR Mick Jagger - knighted by the Queen. Obviously, most peoples lives are not filled with these kinds of people but unless Mick is paying attention, he might not immediately remember that. So it is with the Greyhawk DM and players. They are the Mick Jaggers of Greyhawk and magic is as much a regular part of their lives as supermodels are for Mick. It is not the typical person's reality, however.
I agree with Kirt that you can stack the societal deck to maintain a feudal society if you want to. I think I disagree if there is a suggestion that this can be done indefinately without some greater explaination as to why no societal evolution or devolution occurs.
In either event, I think magic is largely beside the point because it is not sufficiently common, nor generally powerful enough, where powerful magics do appear, to so fundamentally hold society stagnant. While there are a few examples of exceptions, that is what they are and are never permanent to judge by "canon."
IMC, I have never been called upon to "explain" the prevalence of a pseudo-medieval society where feudalism is prominent; it is taken as a given for the most part (recognizing that GH has non-feudal models and that I do not mind spiking the medieval punch with a bit of various technologies - all of which appear in canon).
Were I called upon for an "explaination," I think I would go one of two ways.
First, the Flanaess appears to suffer frequent enough disruptions of society that forward societal progress is significantly impeded (given the others factors (however weighted) already discussed in this thread). The Twin Cataclysms/Migrations and the Greyhawk Wars being the two examples (The Greyhawk Wars were disruptive beyond simple armed conflict; they echo the Invoked Devastation (remember the Hordlings?) in the use of fiendish troops and undead on a massive scale - one of those magical exceptions mentioned previously). While any number of fans will begin to wimper or whine at the thought of such Oerth shaking events ever being seen again ("No More Greyhawk Wars!"); I think they help "realistically" sustain and keep fresh the medieval flavor (that these same people often fervently expouse).
Second, I might have it that the gods work covertly to keep Greyhawk medieval because it is in their interest to do so. They work to suppress societal advancement and technology because they thrive on unreasoning faith, superstitution and ignorance that would be threatened if man were to develop a more egalitarian society that valued thought rather than faith. The gods as mans oppressors? Enter the Ur-Flan. To say nothing of devils and demons who offer "freedom," if at the price of "sin." A nice philosophic stew if it is divinity that keeps the Flanaess "medieval."
Of course, druids who crusade against the spread of "civilization" already exist, as well.
Maybe a combination.
But monsters and magic just cannot explain a permanent state of feudalism, IMO.
Not too much magic ...
Not too much technology ...
A bid of druidic passion ...
Two parts Cataclysm ...
With all these excellent ingredients for stability, it looks to be a very good recipe for a theme to have as a backdrop in a campaign. But it is too complex for me.
When I want life for the majority to be nasty, brutish and short, I get something that is nasty, brutish and short! Gremlins!
GVD, your fear has been here all along. Power positions must be maintained by those in them, disrupted by those who seek them. Continual street lights? Maybe not in every city, but then a constabulary is not present in every town. Both are "advancements" meant to keep the status quo. The City Watch(whether armed with tasers, lasers, six shooters, clubs, axes, or magic) uses the tools and methods they are provided with. The Powers That Be decide that, and in Greyhawk that can, does, and will mean magic will be involved somewhere along the line.
That more DMs don't take advantage of the wide array of Divination spells for NPC courts, legal and regal, is a crime.
Of course the majority of food would still be grown, but why would the land barons not use magic to prevent crop blight, destroy grain eating vermin, preserve the harvest, etc? Those crops are their profit, the less waste the better. Natural healing would be as esoteric as herbal medicine is today.
The military, no matter how technologically advanced or magically enhanced, will always need the basic troop types. The invention of the long range bomber, atom bomb, and antitank missile did do away with our modern army's need of infantrymen. And as for air superiority, any CS that has dragons has moved at a tangent away from true medieval tech. The question of air defense is inherent in D&D, you could have NPC military leaders ignore the third dimension to protect "medieval" flavor, but I believe that would be the worse sort of metagaming.
Create item feats still need the basic handcrafted implement to work with.
Feudalism evolves when it becomes too great of a burden, or outside political forces conquers it. Magic in the every day life of the peasant makes the yoke of state easier to bear. Medievalism is a term more defined, in my opinion, by what it is not, rather than what it is. That various nations and cultures have differing degrees of technology is natural. Look at the centuries Arabs of Egypt used basic navigation instruments that their Greek counterparts had no knowledge of. The Norse had amazing shipbuilding technique, but no reliable compass.
Magic inflation is not the justification for feudalism, feudalism is the justification for magic inflation. The Powers That Be use and develop the best methods available to them to stay in power. While I have never played FR or Eberron(nor do I ever intend to), magic is prevalent in Greyhawk because magic is prevalent in D&D. Magic as technology is inherent in the game as well, though I hear Eberron is quite over the top.
Magic can be systemitized, that is what Wizards and their schools do. Otherwise we would only have Sorcerers. Blacksmithing is also an art, and it too can be mass produced, but the end product is inferior.
not to pick nits, but "canon" is a decree, law, or official list. "Cannon" is a heavy gun that goes boom. John of Gaunt and his brother-in-law Chaucer saw the use of cannon, culverins mostly, at Poitiers and across France. Gunpowder and seige guns are quite medieval, and quite unreliable compared to a well placed Fireball.
Social evolution occurs when need arises, as I said before. John Lackland forced England to change because he needed it to change. France took a lot longer to throw off the fuedal yoke. The dynasties of China show how long an entrenched social structure can last, hundreds and thousands of years if conditions are even remotely favorable.
GVD, your first explanation of the feudal model is almost perfect. The more the world disrupts a socirty, the more that society will try to cling to its institutions out of a need for continuity and a sense that something is "solid".
I agree that magic and monsters cannot explain away a permanent state of feudalism, but they go far in explaining the difficulties of a Lockesian revolution of personal consciousness. And the attractiveness of it once a PC starts advancing within those ranks of power makes it hard to say no. _________________ I am the thought you are now thinking.
"The trees are our ancestors."----Otto Von Bismark
Wouldn't the intelligensia of GH the "scientist types" of our world be channelled towards the "academic professions of Sages, Wizards and the tinkers to the Enchantment of items"
Which explains the Gnome leadership of the mechnical arts, simply put the best and brightest thinkers are dreaming of spells and the next new magical item rather than how a steam engine could work.
Leaving only the untrained, private dabbler to even try to figure out this odd demi-human profession.
Around the village he/she quickly becomes known as the weirdo down the road.
A very interesting threat. I suppose I should also admit that my personal tastes play into this as well; I can accept things such as the hoists from Hall of the Fire Giant King, the battery trap from S3, printing presses, mechanical clocks and other such devices that don't rely on external power sources and/or need to be run by hand, as well as more sophisticated drills, ballistae, flying bridges and such tools for mining and war. However, things such as the Doomgrinder, a "clockwork" submarine like the kind mentioned in Slavers, the steam-powered Maschini-bozorg, and anything like that is just too much for me to take.
Medieval and ancient steam-powered devices, printing presses like those from Ancient China or the very first versions devised by Gutenberg, and most other inventions made by societies such as Ancient Greece or China (except gunpowder, obviously), I can also, reluctantly, accept in the appropriate eras and settings. Still, their distribution would be carefully restricted, and there would be no way for them to be mass-produced with any success. The only race that could do so are the gnomes; and their gifts with technology far surpasses what man can do.
Unlike the foolish tinker gnomes of Krynn (which I abhor; how the hell do tinker gnomes function as a society if their inventions never work right?), the gnomes of Oerth are the greatest engineers and designers in the world. Gnome is superior to man in his craftsmanship and mining technique; gnome is bettered in his turn by dwarf. Dwarf is superior to man at technology, engineering and design; dwarf is bettered in his turn by gnome. The devices and designs they come up with simply cannot be emulated to any great success by man.
Dwarfs have their skills at craftsmanship and mining; elves have great arcane wisdom and the knowledge of the forests and wilderness; halflings are among the greatest farmers, herdsmen and cooks, living off the land. Man can develop great skills in all these arts-he is a jack of all trades but a master of none. The same thing applies with gnomes; their particular gift is both the mastery of illusion magic and physical technology. In my CF article On the Gnomes of the Flanaess: History, Culture and Nation, I explain some of the paradoxes in gnomish society on Oerth. Another one of these paradoxes is how gnomes are masters at both the intangible illusions of the mind and the physical matters of technology, the special skills claimed by Garl Glittergold, compared to the gifts the other creator-gods acquired for their peoples.
Gnomes being more skilled at technology, IMO, is no less believable than dwarves being better than men at craftsmanship and smithing. Spanish steel was of high quality; Japanese swordsmiths could create katanas of fantastic strength. And that was in the medieval era; look at what we can craft and build now. It's hard to imagine, in comparing man's real-life achievements, how a fantasy race could be better at it. Well, the same thing doesn't just apply to dwarves and their smithwork; why not gnomes and technology as well? _________________ <div align="left">Going to war without Keoland is like going to war without a pipe organ. They both make a lot of noise and they're both a lot of dead weight, so what's the point in taking them along? </div>
I think it is important to distinguish between the cost of magic and the cost of technology.
Technology has a very high investment cost, because most reasearch and inventions lead nowhere. If you are sponsoring reasearch to solve a specific technological problem, you are going to pay huge expenses over a long period of time, and there is no guaruntee you will get something you like. Nascent technology often does not work very well.
Magic, in constrast, has mostly already been reasearched. The number and variety of known spells is enough to accomplish just about any technological task you might want. And magic is much more reliable - you cast a spell, it does what it is supposed to. Doesn't wear out or break or require maintainance.
On the other hand, once technology becomes worked out, it is cheap. Once you understand the design of something, you can make as many as you want, just for the cost of parts and labor. Now, this is not mass production - this is still skilled craftsmen, who are costly. But not nearly as costly as mages.
For example, suppose you are a noble with a mine. You would like it to go deeper, but there is too much water in the mine. It needs to be pumped out. You could hire a mage to conjure a water elemental and pump out the mine. Or you could hire a scientist/engineer like James Watt to come up with a steam driven water pump. In this case, the magic option will be cheaper and much more likely to work. So, most people with this problem will turn to magic, and the development of technology will be retarded.
On the other hand, suppose that someone finally does suceed in inventing a good steam driven water pump. Once a propper design has been acheived, it can be reproduced. Making the first steam engine would be very expensive - but once one has been made, making the next hundred will be far, far cheaper than hiring a hundred summoned water elementals. The advent of this technology would then put this use of magic "out of business".
The relative cost of magic also depends to a great extent on the cost of casting permanancy. I don't know how it works in 3.5, but in second edition each use of Permanancy lowers the Con of a mage by one point. Obviously there are going to be very few permanant magic items in the world if this is the case. You can't pay most mages enough to do that! IMC, the mage casting permanancy gets to make a save vs. magic. If successful, the Con loss is only temporary. This would allow for a world with many more permanant magic items in the place of technology. _________________ My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
The relative cost of magic also depends to a great extent on the cost of casting permanancy. I don't know how it works in 3.5, but in second edition each use of Permanancy lowers the Con of a mage by one point. Obviously there are going to be very few permanant magic items in the world if this is the case. You can't pay most mages enough to do that! IMC, the mage casting permanancy gets to make a save vs. magic. If successful, the Con loss is only temporary. This would allow for a world with many more permanant magic items in the place of technology.
I don't think it's that big a deal. In the 1E DMG, it mentioned how the actual possibility of the magic-user losing a point of constitution is only 5%, or one time in every twenty. Non-living items are those such as swords, rings, doors, bridges, horns, carpets, etc. Creating a magical sword doesn't necessarily mean you'll burn up your own vital essence doing so-there's only a 5% chance to do so. Whereas if you're going to give yourself permanent infravision or a permanent resistance to fire, then the constitution penalty always applies. I think it's just a caveat meant to keep players from recklessly using the permanency spell.
The reason permanent magic items aren't mass-produced, IMO, is due less to the constitution loss than it is to the enormous costs associated with that kind of spellcasting. Hiring someone to mass-produce even a bunch of +1 swords would require tens of thousands of gold pieces for every permanency spell you cast, plus compensation for any loss of constitution. To be able to turn a profit from this, you'd have to set the price of each sword astronomically high, which means few people would be able to afford it. Ergo, mass production wouldn't be an option.
Besides, how many 18th-level or higher wizards have the time to do these things? How many 18th level wizards have the will to do this? How many 18th-level wizards exist at all? _________________ <div align="left">Going to war without Keoland is like going to war without a pipe organ. They both make a lot of noise and they're both a lot of dead weight, so what's the point in taking them along? </div>
Excuse my figures, I ain't the best at this...In 3.x it's actually too easy to mass produce items. Like the aforementioned Sword +1, it has a market price of 2315gp. The cost to make it is half that, so just roughly 1150gp. All that is required beyond that is a Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat and 1/25 the market cost, or 93xp spent. The time to make the sword is one day per 1000gp and unlike other editions there are no rolls for success or permanency checks. The XPs are the only deterrant and i think 1/25 is too low. Two days, one grand, and a paltry 90xp, high level wizards could crank em out if they want.
Aw man, me and one of my players go round and round about "magic" being easy to acquire. He feels that magic items are easy to manufacture. I disagree. The rules set with 3Ev5 make it incredibly easy for people to make magic items. I counter this with, the nobles saying "Hey if you can make magic, then you come work for me." One of the things I miss from the older rules is insinuation about all the material components you needed before you could start. I still remember that Furyondy has some forge that allows it to create a magic sword every week or every month(?) Did that nifty lil item just sit in some village? Heck no, it ended up well guarded and used. I am concerned that the designers didn't take into effect the role magic has on the setting. If it's too easy to acquire, then there will eventually be less and less threat by "monsters." Sorry that my thoughts didn't flow, but I'm aggrivated
Why does there have to be a concerted effort given to research? Why can't various improvements and advancements simply exist and accumulate?
Why will magic obviate specific improvements? Particularly in the so-called "low magic" environment, why won't people want a better plow, or a better forge, or a better waterwheel?
Why won't magic mandate certain areas of research and development? The requirements of astrology and alchemy certainly did in the real world. Why won't the same need for superior glass, more precise temperature measurements, more exacting volume measurements, accurate records of past experiments and their results, paper to record said results, and more exist? And why won't their development for arcane investigators eventually pass on to ordinary people?
Further, given the very insistence that magic not become ubiquitous, why won't people be demanding alternatives to the benefits magic gives a select few? Indeed, if there are no golem armies to be had, why wouldn't an ambitious warlord want a vehicle that can be armored and propelled by a mundane energy source? If a wizard can dismiss the rust from an item with a word, why won't a soldier want a weapon that does not rust in the first place? And most verily, with all those uppity wizards teleporting hither and yon, what noble would not desire his own personal plane, train, and/or automobile to whisk him about in equal comfort, if not equivalent velocity?
And please, no suggestions that the wizards simply conspire to keep everyone else down. Unless said wizards are assured of immunity from all retribution, how could they expect to get away with it forever? At some point, some one, some where, is going to make the connection between their lack of scientific progress and the regular appearance of the local spellchuckers every time someone with wit above that of the average village fool is summarily dispatched, and his quaint new innovation smashed to flinders, with no record of its manufacture preserved anywhere. If magic is so plentiful and omnipotent, then indeed, why isn't is ubiquitous in daily life?
I think you've touched on some valuable points. I think the problem exists in that there are monsters that do go out and hunt humans, something we don't really worry about in reality. So it is possible that a better plow has been made or even a steam engine has been invented, but the inventors were eaten I also think that there is a trend to make the new generation of players think that everyone can read and write, water is clean and food is not poisoned. I mean gees, with so many wizards and clerics out there, life should be grand...or should it?
I would think that clerics of a certain faith would save their spells for those of their flock. Oh I'm sorry brave and noble adventurers. I see that you are all terribly hurt and in dire need of healing, but you're not one of our faith and my god would be most upset if I wasted his divine grace on those who don't follow our doctrines.
Wizards would be far worse. Okay, I can take care of myself. You don't really do anything for me so why should I help you again? Yes, I believe in following the laws and the spirit under which they were written, but that doesn't mean I need to be spending every moment of my waking life catering to your need. So you want me to ensure your crops get enough rain? What's in it for me? Well I'm sorry the gods gave me more brains than you, but hey, that's why you're a farmer. So why don't you uit wasting both of our time and get back to farming.
I suspect that people are overlooking the fact that there are serfs, peasants, slaves, craftsmen, laborers and oddly enough, most of them can't read or write. Why should a cobbler need to know how to read and write? He's skilled and knows that his work is worth 2 sp. A bigger boot means more work and a higher price. You don't like that? Guess you don't get a new pair of boots. The point is, technology is making a serious headway, but it is also under constant threat of being supressed. Wizards are a shady lot who don't have a big ole magic swap and trade show. Clerics don't go out and all say "For the greater good."
Finally, I generally agree with you Samwise, I think magic does not dictate that technology be held in check. A better plow might be made, but do you let the other kingdom know about the better plow? Hey, you're in competition. Magic conflicts with nature. Can't grow crops? My spell says you can and then BOOM, you have a bumper harvest in the desert. Now imagine that, you've got this better plow, but the next nation over is producing crops faster than you can plant. I'd be going to war over that, b/c your magic induced yields may be preventing me from feeding my kids. Now there's a war on and I get killed (goes my better plow) and so does the cleric or wizard who produced the magic crops. Everybody loses, even though technology made an advancement for a short term. Oh look, goblins raiders.
Except my dear DwarffromNyrond, inventions like that are far from unique. While indeed you may get the world beating a path to your door by building a better mousetrap, such is not mandatory.
And just because we didn't have manticores flying down to eat us here on earth, doesn't mean we didn't have other things trying to kill us left and right.
I would also note that unless communications technology is incredibly superior in our dark ages magical world, people will have enough trouble knowing if the next village over has a bumper crop, never mind the kingdom 200 miles away has some spell chucker casting mega-plant growth left and right.
Finally I will note that you do have some exceptionally valid comment regarding literacy rates and the like. The reason they are regularly glossed over in most games is very simple - they are both too complex for most people to care about, and too irritating for most people to want to play around. I've commented on that before in regards to coinage being unique by kingdom. Aside from it actually being historically inaccurate, how many really want to keep a page of records listing their coins by type, nation, monarch who issued them, degree of clipping, percentage of bastardization of the bullion content, obverse and reverse portraits, milled or unmilled edges, and all of the other endless little details about coins that nobody but an obsessive numismatist begins to care about? So remember, even when you grant any of some of the rather forced suggestions for suppressing technology, think about just how much extra work it will involve to keep track of your low tech refuge. Much of it simply isn't worth the effort.
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He feels that magic items are easy to manufacture. I disagree. The rules set with 3Ev5 make it incredibly easy for people to make magic items. 
I also think that there is a trend to make the new generation of players think that everyone can read and write, water is clean and food is not poisoned. I mean gees, with so many wizards and clerics out there, life should be grand...or should it?