Signup
Welcome to... Canonfire! World of GreyhawK
Features
Postcards from the Flanaess
Adventures
in Greyhawk
Cities of
Oerth
Deadly
Denizens
Jason Zavoda Presents
The Gord Novels
Greyhawk Wiki
#greytalk
JOIN THE CHAT
ON DISCORD
    Canonfire :: View topic - Lines of Succession: Veluna
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    Lines of Succession: Veluna
    Author Message
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
    Posts: 2470
    From: SW WA state (Highvale)

    Send private message
    Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:09 am  
    Lines of Succession: Veluna

    Having an interesting discussion with a fellow 'hawker about the lines of succession for families dwelling out of Veluna. I am curious what everyone thinks as I need to 'flesh out' how titles and inheritance may be passed from one generation to another among the nobles in Veluna since my player has a lesser noble (paladin of Heironeous) who hails from that sovereign nation.

    It seems pretty clear to me that in the neighboring nation of Furyondy, the traditional lines of (medieval) succession are pretty well demarcated along male lineages wherein titles, property, and the like pass from father to eldest son.

    However, Veluna is an altogether different sort of country and not the typical feudal society and seems to me, at least, to be more egalitarian, and may even allow eldest daughters to claim titles, lands, etc. instead of only sons. Or perhaps all children are given an equal share of such.

    I invite and encourage discussion! Please offer me your thoughts and ideas.

    thank you,

    Lanthorn
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3836
    From: So. Cal

    Send private message
    Fri Aug 05, 2016 2:09 am  

    One aspect of the proposed marriage of Thrommel of Furyondy to Jolene of Veluna was that Thrommel would rule both nations in matters secular, and Hazen would rule in matters spiritual. Jolene was...not considered so far as ruling was concerned, and so it would seem that Veluna is traditionally a feudal patriarchy as well, and very similar to Furyondy.

    Now, there is no reason that the situation would have left Jolene uninvolved. Considering that Thrommel is/was a charismatic, hands-on war leader, he might often be away from the capitol, killing something evil no doubt, and so Jolene might have great influence, or outright power of rulership over, the nobles of both lands; especially considering that she would not be "just" the queen, but also the daughter of the Archcleric.

    Or, Thrommel's *seneschal* (and Hazen) would take care of things while he was out of town, if you go with a more traditional feudal patrairachy set-up. Jolene may then have been cloistered most of her life not only because she is the daughter of the Archlcleric, but because she is one of the keys to uniting the two nations, which must be protected. Jolene could have very much been sheltered most of her life. That is a much more likely scenario than having a headstrong Jolene who does what she wants; with an indulgent father who just smiles and shakes his head at her "shenanigans." rolleyesLaughing

    You could really go either way though, but it also makes more sense for two nations interested in uniting to have very similar societies, as they would then be much more amenable to the idea of uniting. I mean, Canada and the U.S. are pretty good buddies, but you don't hear anybody saying, "Hey, you know what we should do?" Laughing

    So, they are probably both traditional feudal patriarchies. There is no reason that Jolene must be an impotent figurehead/symbol though, even if the two nations are feudal patriarchies.
    _________________
    - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 09, 2001
    Posts: 655


    Send private message
    Fri Aug 05, 2016 4:58 am  

    Jolen was Hazen's daughter? Really? Maybe I missed something in the later, Living Greyhawk days or beyond, but I do not recall that.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 09, 2003
    Posts: 1361
    From: Tennessee, between Ft. Campbell & APSU

    Send private message
    Fri Aug 05, 2016 12:42 pm  

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...Jolene might have great influence, or outright power of rulership over, the nobles of both lands; especially considering that she would not be "just" the queen, but also the daughter of the Archcleric.

    Or... Jolene may then have been cloistered most of her life not only because she is the daughter of the Archlcleric, but because she is one of the keys to uniting the two nations, which must be protected. Jolene could have very much been sheltered most of her life. That is a much more likely scenario than having a headstrong Jolene who does what she wants...
    You could really go either way though...


    -"Sheltered" and "Headstrong" are not neccesarily mutually exclusive.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3311
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Fri Aug 05, 2016 1:52 pm  

    Jolene of Samprastadar is the daughter of the Plar of Veluna (the ruler of the Archclericy's foremost noble house; a plar is equivalent to an earl in rank), not the Canon.

    Jolene is also the Supreme Mistress of the Celestial Order of the Moons, a congress of Veluna's secular rulers. Each archdiocese in Veluna is co-ruled by a noble (such as a plar) and a bishop. As the appointed leader of Jolene's secular rulers, Jolene is powerful in her own right, though not as powerful as Hazen. Would a woman ordinarily get this role, though, or did she only get it because the Plar had no male heir? My assumption is the latter; that titles are inherited by the eldest son or, if no son exists, the eldest daughter.

    The religious counterpart of the Celestial Order is the College of Bishops; Hazen is the head of state, and the Order and the College only have advisory roles, officially.

    The Guide to the World of Greyhawk states that upon his marriage to Jolene, Thrommel would have become Provost of Veluna, becoming the secular ruler of that state, co-equal to Hazen, which seems to be a title that doesn't currently exist. In exchange, Hazen would have become the spiritual head of a united Furyondy and Veluna. I think Jolene would have retained her title of Supreme Mistress of the Celestial Order of the Moons, but this would still just be an advisory position, secondary to both Hazen and Thrommel.

    So yes, it looks like there's some patriarchal bias in that it's assumed that in a united Furyondy and Veluna Jolene would have a lesser role. Of course, as the wife of the king, who knows how much influence over policy she'd actually have? But it would be "soft" influence, not codified in law.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3836
    From: So. Cal

    Send private message
    Sat Aug 06, 2016 2:41 am  

    Hehe. Sorry. I always do that. Fortunately I have you lot to correct me...yet again. Not the first time, not the second time, probably not the last time. Maybe I just like the idea of her being Hazen's daughter better. Question

    rasgon wrote:
    My assumption is the latter; that titles are inherited by the eldest son or, if no son exists, the eldest daughter.

    Yes, and she apparently never married. She likely has no surviving paternal uncles either.

    jamesdglick wrote:
    "Sheltered" and "Headstrong" are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
    I mean as in raised in a nunnery, then expediently married off to a suitable political match. Regarding her position, she could very well be a very strong personality, beloved and respected by the people, and taking on the duties of her aging or dead father. Later, she is described as a land-owning priestess, so a noblewoman of some influence. One can assume her parents are both dead by this time, and a popular (and influential) figure in the nation. If she is a priestess of Rao, headstrong doesn't seem very suitable. If one goes with St. Cuthbert, then by all means go with headstrong! Happy
    _________________
    - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 07, 2004
    Posts: 1846
    From: Mt. Smolderac

    Send private message
    Sun Aug 07, 2016 9:10 pm  

    I say do what fits the narrative best. Don't be afraid to mix it up, if that's what works for you. Don't forget that the UK has three different legal systems.
    IMC the more Suloise-influenced provinces of Keoland practice absolute primogeniture, with the eldest, regardless of sex, inheriting; in the more Oeridian-influenced provinces, and the throne of the kingdom, it's by male primogeniture, with the latter succession provisional upon election. So, the NPC wife of the fighter IMC will inherit her father's land in the south of Keoland when he dies. But if her father's older brother, who rules the traditional family lands in one of the northern marches, died without issue, those lands would go to her cousin, the son of her father's younger brother. Maybe unnecessarily complicated, but I think details like this really make the campaign come to life.
    Paladin

    Joined: Sep 07, 2011
    Posts: 833
    From: Houston Texas

    Send private message
    Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:18 am  

    I would also add that both nations have roots in Ferrond. So that may influence the political histories of the ruling houses as well.
    Display posts from previous:   
       Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion All times are GMT - 8 Hours
    Page 1 of 1

    Jump to:  

    You cannot post new topics in this forum
    You cannot reply to topics in this forum
    You cannot edit your posts in this forum
    You cannot delete your posts in this forum
    You cannot vote in polls in this forum




    Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises

    Contact the Webmaster.  Long Live Spidasa!


    Greyhawk Gothic Font by Darlene Pekul is used under the Creative Commons License.

    PHP-Nuke Copyright © 2005 by Francisco Burzi. This is free software, and you may redistribute it under the GPL. PHP-Nuke comes with absolutely no warranty, for details, see the license.
    Page Generation: 0.36 Seconds