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Mayaheine's homeworld

 
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rasgon
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:35 pm    Post subject: Mayaheine's homeworld Reply with quote

From the Ashes wrote:
Mayaheine rose from mortal ranks as an epic hero, a paladin of Pelor. She does not originate from Oerth and has traveled, with Pelor’s aid, from some unknown alternate world in the Prime Material. Flanaess folk see this act as potential salvation and revere her for coming to aid them


What do you think Mayaheine's world of origin was like? Other than that Pelor must have been worshiped there (unless she started worshiping Pelor after leaving her homeworld), we don't know anything about it.

Some possibilities:

Mayaheine is from Yarth, home of the Sagard the Barbarian books

Mayaheine is from the Oerth of the New Infinities Gord the Rogue series, the one destroyed by Tharizdun and Entropy. She was sent by Pelor to an alternate timeline—the world of the PCs—to warn them of this possible future and help them avoid it.

Mayaheine is from Uerth, which Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk revealed was a world where familiar people exist with rearranged names and different alignments. This is the homeworld of Bilarro, Robilar's double who betrayed the Circle of Eight to Rary. This implies that Mayaheine might have a double native to Oerth, perhaps an evil anti-paladin working toward becoming a demigod in the service of Nerull.

Mayaheine is from Nentir Vale, the 4th edition default setting, where Pelor is known to be worshiped. She was sent to Oerth to help stop the spread of the dreaded Abyssal Plague.

Mayaheine is from another world in Greyspace. The likeliest possibility is probably Ginsel, the most terrestrial planet in the system after Oerth itself. Ginsel is a world of scheming merchant-princes.

Mayaheine is from Ranais, the world from which Orcus tore Moil, the City That Waits. All life on Ranais died after a series of cataclysms, but some refugees managed to make it alive to other planes. Perhaps Mayaheine helped lead them there.

Mayaheine is from a world identical to the Oerth the PCs know, but in the past or future. Perhaps only a few months, perhaps millions of years.

Mayaheine is from one of the alternate worlds detailed in Q1 Queen of the Demonweb Pits, and her primary goal is to battle the incursions of Lolth on whatever planes her foul webs touch.

Mayaheine was a gamer from our Earth; after Pelor magically transported her to Oerth, she took on the form of her own player character, the paladin Mayaheine.

After taking the "Dungeons & Dragons" ride at a local amusement park, Mayaheine, a teenager from our Earth, was gifted with a magical shield and bow by the enigmatic Dungeon Master and told that to get home, she would have to defeat the evil Venger, whose alliance with Tiamat and Lolth bode ill...
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tarelton
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 8:56 am    Post subject: Re: Mayaheine's homeworld Reply with quote

rasgon wrote:
Mayaheine was a gamer from our Earth; after Pelor magically transported her to Oerth, she took on the form of her own player character, the paladin Mayaheine.


I am having images of Ash from Army of Darkness running in my head...


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SouthernGent
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was getting more of a Crisis on Infinite Oerths kind of vibe
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edmundscott
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rasgon, I actually ran an adventure using the Uerth-double idea about 20 years ago.

The 15th+ lvl Pelor-Worshipping PCs had managed to gather all the parts of the Crown, Orb, Scepter of Evil and were looking for ways to destroy them, when I had some of their evil Nerull-worshipping doubles from Uerth use powerful magic to trade places with their bodies (equipment remained in the homeworld) in order to get and place the evil artifacts in a secret place on another plane where they could be recovered later (after the body swap wore off).

Basically, I ran an adventure for just 1/2 the players, where 1/2 the party awoke imprisoned and all but powerless in Uerth (preparations undertaken by their doubles so they couldn't cause trouble while the swap was going on), who then had to escape into this evil-reverse world I based on the old Mirror-Mirror Star Trek episode. What they discovered was the their evil counterparts, in lieu of recovering the pieces of the artifacts of good, had imprisoned Mayaheine, a previously unknown demigod in service of their patron, and were using her as a sort of infinite power source for their schemes. The swapped PCs managed to free her and escape back to Oerth with her. I then swore the players who played this adventure to secrecy.

Then, next session, we brought everyone together and played out what had been going on meanwhile in Oerth. The PCs who played the first part were now playing their evil counterparts, unknown to the other players, who were playing their usual characters. The good guys (just) managed to catch wind of the plot before the evil counterparts nabbed the artifacts and one of the more epic battles in my campaign ensued--made especially difficult because the good characters were convinced that their enemies were, in fact, their friends, only under some kind of charm or domination, and so pulled their punches and attacked only non-lethally.

The end result of that adventure was that Oerth gained a new demigoddess, and I had to listen to years of whining about "how come we never got to use a captive evil demigod as an infinite powersource?"
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rasgon
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

edmundscott wrote:
The end result of that adventure was that Oerth gained a new demigoddess, and I had to listen to years of whining about "how come we never got to use a captive evil demigod as an infinite powersource?"


Haha, awesome.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 1:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Mayaheine's homeworld Reply with quote

*LENGTHY RESPONSE AHEAD*
rasgon wrote:

What do you think Mayaheine's world of origin was like? Other than that Pelor must have been worshiped there (unless she started worshiping Pelor after leaving her homeworld),.....
I'd think Pelor would be more likely to ascend a follower... IMO
As to the rest, you prose some interesting possibilities... Some of which I had (and others had not) considered for MOC. I took a lot of these into consideration years ago when one of my primary PCs was converted by the NPC cleric from a worshiper of Pelor to that of Mayaheine.
I molded the following for my own campaign....

rasgon wrote:

Mayaheine is from Yarth, home of the Sagard the Barbarian books
I did consider this but not exactly as defined ... more below....

rasgon wrote:

Mayaheine is from the Oerth of the New Infinities Gord the Rogue series, the one destroyed by Tharizdun and Entropy. She was sent by Pelor to an alternate timeline—the world of the PCs—to warn them of this possible future and help them avoid it.

Mayaheine is from Uerth, which Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk revealed was a world where familiar people exist with rearranged names and different alignments. This is the homeworld of Bilarro, Robilar's double who betrayed the Circle of Eight to Rary. This implies that Mayaheine might have a double native to Oerth, perhaps an evil anti-paladin working toward becoming a demigod in the service of Nerull.

I took a merging of these two for my base line not only for Mayaheine but for most other demi / quasi / hero – deity types rising up on Oerth from the early 1e days to present.


What is now referred by my players as the "Splintered Time", the PCs experienced a multitude of crossed and converging time lines dealing with alternated, twisted or varied realities of themselves and prominent NPCs.

This convergence of time lines worked two-fold. It helped me as the DM to reconcile various inconsistencies in canon, fanon, and just table histories from past player participation spanning 30 years within my own campaign.

rasgon wrote:

Mayaheine is from a world identical to the Oerth the PCs know, but in the past or future. Perhaps only a few months, perhaps millions of years.

Mayaheine is from one of the alternate worlds detailed in Q1 Queen of the Demonweb Pits, and her primary goal is to battle the incursions of Lolth on whatever planes her foul webs touch.

For my campaign, these combine as supporting elements of the baseline methodology described below...


As the PCs splintered world begins to settle out, it has become known to select sages, savants, and various PC and NPC heroes of a pact existing between all the combined representatives of the "heavens" that the tragedies of events of Tharizdun and Entropy must be avoided or lose the primary renewable source of their own power (the worship of mortals) and the destruction of their creations.

This has created an "official", yet undocumented, accord agreement that the Deities collectively, but loosely abide by.
The Deities will, while in person, refrain from making direct war on the prime-material worlds and that all immortals are not allowed to conduct such aggressions personally unless they reside on that plane. This, of course, extends to their collective minions below them in variant degrees. Avatars, Celestial, Cambion, and demonic alike cannot interfere in the prime without "potentially" suffering a similar fate as Tharizdun. Those minions can travel back and forth reporting the events, wage conflict directly on divine planes or agreed ethereal battlefronts (such as the astral or concordant opposition), and travel to the prime swaying the decisions of mortals, but the mortals have the power of choice.

This day-taunt that was, in reality, mostly unenforceable, since even the gods are not omnipresent nor omnipotent in all events going on everywhere immediately (IMC anyway). It allowed a "grey area" of strong arming and rule bending through their following when dealing with mortal affairs.

However, the deities themselves missed a key point in their own accord. The undisclosed and shortsighted element that was overlooked by the collective deities was "home plane".

This became prevalent when the first to take advantage of this oversight was the Cambion offspring, Iuz. He lay waste to the world before him, which was his birthright. For he was of Oerth..


OFcourse the gods of rightness and law cried foul.. Threatening to further breach the accord, since in their minds it had already been sundered, many a battle cry to readiness rang across the heavens, only to see the forces of dark and chaos respond with their own escalation of troop massing (such as the dark minions further being supplied by Gratz in support of Iuz).

But then Boccob, and Rao (supported by others) interceded and reminded their brethren that Iuz had in fact complied with the agreed accord and, unfortunately his "Greyhawk Ashes" were well within his agreed right.
Each Pantheons' representatives of law feeling slighted, and though not disclosed, embarrassed at such an obvious oversight, went to work to find other "loop holes" in the accord that would restore the balance. It was quickly determined that the accord didn't apply to those that were from the origin world (and there by the plane) that they resided. This was the opportunity that was the chance to set things right.

The Collective of Law, with collaboration from the Norns, interceded the fate of the prime material of Oerth. Setting into motion splintering the potential realities. Restricted by Rao, Boccob and others, they could not alter (directly) their oppositions past choices, but the accord also allowed for mortal choice….

The Collective, now with various splintered portions of Oerth exposed future before them determined utilizing key “mortals” and offering varied choices, they could affect the balance. These “Mortals” would be inserted throughout the chosen line of reality. So to action went the Champions of good, of righteous and the ever balance of neutrality, to begin swaying the line, but only gently, slightly. Even with such nudging, the forces of good still barely held on, continued losing ground every year based on the Norn scryings of future events. To the positive part of the change, these “champion seeds” went unnoticed until the next step in their manipulations…. Their ascension and growth of the champion seeds.

Among these, the rising stars of St Cuthbert, Gadhelyn, AArth, Yama, Murlynd, Gilgamesh, Arnd of Tdon, The Grey Mouser, Sir Tristram of Lyoness, Ye'Cind and Mayaheine has tilted the scales back toward balance in a relative short amount of time from a cosmos perspective. Brought to Oerth by various sponsored Deities or already inspired masses there on Oerth the Champion Seeds were guided to the cause of preserving the deities shared creation, Oerth and its inhabitants. Mayaheine being one of the last “seeds” to ascend from her mortal bonds of Oerth in 583CY once the spread of her faith ignited.

Many deities were silently in support of this realignment, “planting” their “seeds” from even before the point of Iuz’ imprisonment, Rao, Pelor, and Ehlonna among them. Rao, seeing a need to stem the tide against Iuz chose to bring forth the mortal St Cuthbert from an alternate reality (see dragon mag #2and #100 for details) to oppose Iuz directly, elevating the priest to challenge the Cambion when he began expanding his empire. Pelor, having a vested long term desire to keep his old nemesis Tharizdun bound, combined with Pelor’s varied forms (aspects) and meeting the prayers and needs of his varied domains and worshipers have left him stretched to support all within his “kingdom”. So deferring the responsibilities of protection and honor to a worthy worshiper like Mayaheine seemed an obvious choice and would further expand the belief as a whole without his direct involvement, thus meeting the accord agreements as well.

And for a time on Oerth, against the dark forces, they took root and prospered quietly. Through the course of the very nature of their own arrivals and interference, these events they inter-acted with altered some of the appearances of potential adversaries and events. Some events not appearing at all (no crashed spaceship in the Expedition to the Barrier Peaks) and, more notably, some appearances being deferred to some, as yet known date, such as Kyuss and the rise of the Drow.

Also to be noted Boccob, thru his own amusements and machinations, let slip the means to imprison Iuz. He conveyed with purpose, via the arch mage Zagyg, letting it "slip" a means to imprison Iuz with the intent to delay the cambon’s advance and restore a temporary balance to Oerth as the deities sought a long term solution to the oversight of the accord “home world” detail………

But even Boccob underestimated the wizard’s ambition and skill. Zagyg had created the perfectly balanced trap containing not only Iuz, but several other comparable deities of countering alignment to maintain the balancing forces restricting all including the cambion, and thus binding all trapped within in a nullifying force.


Boccob realizing the long reaching potential of this, set the wheels of reality in motion once again allowing a group of adventurers knowledge of this trap / prison existence, but misled them into believing that Iuz could be destroyed. These adventurers attempted to do the deed, hoping to rid the world of the cambion lord before he could tighten his grip on Oerth, but they only actually managed freeing him (and his fellow captives) restoring the balance to both the light and the dark to their former status.

As a reward for his cleverness (though some would say to insure less future interference from the Mad Mage) Boccob sponsored Zagyg’s ascendance hoping to remove the wizard from directly influencing the future of Oerth events.

Witnessing Iuz’ escape after several decades, The Norns, and the gods of neutrality refused to support any further manipulations in the reality time line afraid that the darker forces of the accord would object and raze the world to the hands of chaos and eventually freeing Tharizdun and others to make good on their plans of oblivion.

The world settled into its new reality with all sides accepting that ascended mortals were considered of Oerth [b]IF
they ascended from Oerth. Thus complying with the accord. As to the Deities, they still could not make open war or conflict directly, but could have their sponsored minions sway the choices of the races of Oerth.


This approach allowed me to remove some pieces of "canon" I felt didn't fit and incorporate some old 1e pre-greyhawk parts into the overall greyhawk realm... mainly heroes and deities residing from the original deities and demigods (White book 1976 and revised for first D&DG) that were part of my campaign before the introduction of greyhawk in the 80's. Further, the explosion of deities created by WOC (over 150) I found unmanageable and I began to consolidate those into varied aspects of various deities depending on the worshipers. Pelor also being Al’Asran, Ehlonna being Ehlenestra for some examples

rasgon wrote:

Mayaheine was a gamer from our Earth; after Pelor magically transported her to Oerth, she took on the form of her own player character, the paladin Mayaheine.
After taking the "Dungeons & Dragons" ride at a local amusement park, Mayaheine, a teenager from our Earth, was gifted with a magical shield and bow by the enigmatic Dungeon Master and told that to get home, she would have to defeat the evil Venger, whose alliance with Tiamat and Lolth bode ill...

This one made me laugh out Loud, and brought back Saturday morning memories…..
I would add the alternate link as a possibility supporting this idea…

Guardians of the Flame

As to the Sagard Barbarians, I rolled this against Vatun and the RedKnight further supporting the sponsorship of ascension mentioned above and allowing for some cross connect with FR as well if I so choose to. Now depending on where one might be... there are "rumors" that the Red Knight and Mayaheine are one and the same. (though for me one has a bit more course barbarian attitude Evil Grin )
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pburke
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 4:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Mayaheine's homeworld Reply with quote

What do you think Mayaheine's world of origin was like? Other than that Pelor must have been worshiped there (unless she started worshiping Pelor after leaving her homeworld), we don't know anything about it.


I think Mayaheine is from our Earth, and I think she's Jeanne D'Arc. Her Holy Symbol is practically identical to the Coat of Arms of Jeanne D'Arc.
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tarelton
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 6:55 am    Post subject: Re: Mayaheine's homeworld Reply with quote

pburke wrote:
Her Holy Symbol is practically identical to the Coat of Arms of Jeanne D'Arc.


They are indeed similar, though it took me while to find the canonical version of Mayaheine's Coat of Arms. Pelor, Mayaheine's patron, has always struck me as the closest thing to the God of the Old and New Testaments on Oerth:

From the Ashes wrote:
The nature of Pelor's reverence has changed subtly during and since the wars and is still changing. His old aspect of a peaceful, gentle god concerned for the suffering is eclipsed by his more martial aspect as a wrathful Power who drives out the darkness of evil... As strengthener and healer, Pelor brings vitality to those beset by evil, and many warriors now turn to his faith.


Pelor always struck me as a god worshiped by the common people because of the succor and protection he offered, and not as much by the elites. Has the Church of Pelor had its own Council of Clermont? What affect will this have on its worshipers who are looking for a protector, but not necessarily a chance to march off and get killed far away? I would think having Jeanne, I mean Mayaheine, on his team solves that problem, as those wishing to crusade abroad can follow her cult, while the mass of the people who simply desire safety can still worship Pelor.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rasgon wrote:
...Mayaheine is from the Oerth of the New Infinities Gord the Rogue series, the one destroyed by Tharizdun and Entropy. She was sent by Pelor to an alternate timeline—the world of the PCs—to warn them of this possible future and help them avoid it...


-Parallel universes are a good explantion for why your Greyhawk campaign looks a little different from my campaign, from DLG's campaign, and so on.



Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
..."As a reward for his cleverness (though some would say to insure less future interference from the Mad Mage) Boccob sponsored Zagyg’s ascendance hoping to remove the wizard from directly influencing the future of Oerth events."...


-Zagyg is from Oerth (AFAIK), so wouldn't he be able to interfere as much as a deity as he did as a mortal? Besides, Zagyg seems to meddle all the time. It's almost a cliché. I've even used it once... Wink



pburke wrote:
"I think Mayaheine is from our Earth, and I think she's Jeanne D'Arc. Her Holy Symbol is practically identical to the Coat of Arms of Jeanne D'Arc."...


-I did[n't] know that. Interesting. I always thought of Jeanne d'Arc as a brunette and Mayaheine as a blonde for some reason. Just decided on a different look? Wink Or how about a parallel universe Jeanne d'Arc? Anyway, Jeannie is often portrayed as a blonde, but I'm not aware of a documented description of her. But I like the idea. Provides a good context. But it shouldn't be widely know on Oerth.

tarelton wrote:
... "Pelor, Mayaheine's patron, has always struck me as the closest thing to the God of the Old and New Testaments on Oerth..."...


-The faiths of Pholtus and St. Cuthbert were intended to be parodies of Christianity, IIRC, although not necessarily medieval. Most of us seem to assume that St C' is the ascended saint of the Northumbrians.

EDIT:"did" to "didn't.


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rasgon
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jamesdglick wrote:
I always thought of Jeanne d'Arc was a brunette and Mayaheine as a blonde for some reason. Just decided on a different look?


From what I understand, her trial documents describe her as a short, sturdy woman with black hair. Mayaheine is described in From the Ashes as strikingly tall (6'4") with auburn-gold hair, some 30 years of age (Jeanne d'Arc died at 19). It's not beyond the power of a demigoddess to change her physical appearance, of course, but with a different name, appearance, symbol, and religion there is very little to connect her to Jeanne d'Arc.

Mayaheine's holy symbol has some similarity to Jeanne d'Arc's coat of arms: they both have swords. Jeanne's has a crown in the chief position and it's supported by two fleurs-de-lis. Mayaheine has a sun symbol in the center of the sword and it's supported by two chevrons and two bezants. But they're not exactly the same, and Mayaheine's name isn't obviously derived from Jeanne's. Also note that, while she was given the right to use them by the king, Jeanne never used those arms personally; in battle she used a white banner with an image of God holding the world between two angels, and the words "Jhesus Maria."

That said, with all the weird ideas I posted above, interpreting Mayaheine as the actual historical Joan of Arc transported across universes isn't the strangest one here.

I was actually trying to think of a scenario in which she was from medieval Earth, but the best I could come up with was the idea that she was a character from the world of Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions, the inspiration of Caer Sidi from Queen of the Demonweb Pits. That book has a character who travels from Earth in the Second World War to Charlemagne's Europe, and then travels in a sequel to a world where Shakespeare's plays are historical documents and the English Civil War had steam-powered trains, so the idea of a character traveling between worlds has precedent there, and there's a canon connection to Oerth.

The biggest difficulty I'm having with the Mayaheine-Joan of Arc connection is that Joan/Jeanne was famously orthodox in her Christian religious beliefs (to the point where a hostile court determined to convict her of heresy could only nail her on a crossdressing charge), and while Pelor is a pretty good fantasy world parallel to the Christian god he remains a pagan sun god. Here are some possibilities, though:

1. Jeanne mistook her visions as Christian saints, but they were actually Greyhawk gods speaking to her across the planes.

2. Jeanne knew perfectly well that she served Pelor, not Christ, but kept it a secret.

3. Jeanne was a genuine Christian during her mortal life, but after she was burned at the stake Pelor resurrected her and convinced her to venerate him instead.

4. Pelor and Christ are the exact same entity worshiped under different names. Maybe something of an Aslan scenario?

5. Mayaheine was Joan of Arc, but from a parallel world (similar to Gary Gygax's Ærth) where Christianity never took hold and everyone worships Pelor and other polytheistic gods instead. "Francia" in Gygax's Ærth venerates the Greco-Roman pantheon, while Burgundy, which I think corresponds to where Jeanne was born in our world, worships the Norse pantheon, but I suppose you could fit Pelor into that world as part of the Atlantian pantheon or something.

6. Mayaheine was Joan of Arc but from a world even less like our world than Ærth is, like Yarth, perhaps. But at this point, how was she even meaningfully Joan of Arc? Is Iuz a parallel-universe version of Henry VI? Is Iggwilv secretly Catherine of Valois?

What do you even do with a storyline like that? Send the PCs on a mission to medieval Earth to find a relic that can restore Mayaheine after she's wounded?

Quote:
Most of us seem to assume that St C' is the ascended saint of the Northumbrians.


I don't, personally, for similar reasons to the above: you end up with the awkward scenario of a famously Christian saint traveling to a fantasy world and becoming a pagan (or, at least, I don't imagine Greyhawk's Cuthbert telling his followers that he's subordinate to Christ). At least Greyhawk's Saint Cuthbert has the same name as Cuthbert of Lindisfarne (more than we can say of the Joan of Arc-Mayaheine connection), but otherwise they have so little in common they might as well be separate entities.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rasgon wrote:


Quote:
Most of us seem to assume that St C' is the ascended saint of the Northumbrians.


I don't, personally, for similar reasons to the above: you end up with the awkward scenario of a famously Christian saint traveling to a fantasy world and becoming a pagan...


-I always assumed [yeah, I know] that it was EG Gygax's intent. The hat was originally tamoshanter, appropriate to a man from Northumbria (the current slouch hat seems to have only come with Living Greyhawk). I'm sure you could come up with any number of reasons for his apostacy. Of course, EGG in the day wasn't always all that rigorous or consistent. A lot of it the canon was jokey.
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rasgon
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oerth was originally conceived as a close parallel to Earth, so it's possible it generated its own Saint Cuthbert separate from Earth's saint.

I'm no expert in historical headwear, but from what I can tell the tam o'shanter cap came into popularity in the 16th century and wouldn't have been worn by a 7th century Saxon monk. Historical paintings of St. Cuthbert depict him with a bishop's mitre or a cowl.

The predominant characteristics of Greyhawk's St. Cuthbert—plate mail armor, crumpled hat, beguiling billet, magical mace, mind-reading followers, tendency to disguise himself as a manure-covered yokel, etc.—seem unique to D&D and have nothing to do with the historical saint.

I like the idea of leaving St. Cuthbert's origin vague. Maybe he came from somewhere else, maybe he didn't. Maybe he was from Earth, but named after the historical St. Cuthbert. It wasn't that uncommon a name; I have a Cuthbert in my own family tree.

While it's certainly possible to come up with explanations for why this sort of thing might happen (time traveling Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche convinces Cuthbert to abandon his faith, an encounter with the Daemon Sultan Azathoth shatters his view of reality) I'm mostly worried about offending people by suggesting that beloved national saints like Joan of Arc, St. Cuthbert, Mother Teresa, etc. might have abandoned their religions to set themselves up as gods in a secondary fantasy world. Obviously that might not be a problem for every group.

Back in high school I had the idea that St. Cuthbert and Iuz were college roommates in 20th century Earth, and that's where their rivalry began. For some reason, that seemed like a great idea at the time...

rasgon wrote:
What do you even do with a storyline like that? Send the PCs on a mission to medieval Earth to find a relic that can restore Mayaheine after she's wounded?


Come to think of it, a trip to Earth or parallel-Earth to recover Mayaheine's ashes to help restore her after being wounded in combat with Iuz isn't the worst idea for an adventure.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rasgon wrote:
I'm no expert in historical headwear, but from what I can tell the tam o'shanter cap came into popularity in the 16th century and wouldn't have been worn by a 7th century Saxon monk. Historical paintings of St. Cuthbert depict him with a bishop's mitre or a cowl....


-Yeah, and Scottish Highlanders generally weren't wearing kilts until about the same time. I'm going on original intent. Did the original artist (Holloway) know that? Or care? Wink

Hmmm... I wonder how much instruction he got from EGGygax on how to draw the old boy?

rasgon wrote:
...While it's certainly possible to come up with explanations for why this sort of thing might happen... I'm mostly worried about offending people by suggesting that beloved national saints like Joan of Arc, St. Cuthbert, Mother Teresa, etc. might have abandoned their religions to set themselves up as gods in a secondary fantasy world. Obviously that might not be a problem for every group...


-I've thought the same thing, but as the cliché goes, some of my best players are Christian. Wink Gygax didn't seem to have a problem with creating St. C and Pholtus as parodies of Christianity, and he was a Christian. I'm still just looking for original intent. Even if you're a Gygaxian Purist (I'm not), he did change his mind about things all the time.


rasgon wrote:
...I like the idea of leaving St. Cuthbert's origin vague. Maybe he came from somewhere else, maybe he didn't....


-Yeah, I know, we're just shooting the bull. I haven't really decided one way or the other, and it would take a rather unusually detailed (and probably ridiculously high level) adventure to make it necessary to actually nail St. C's origins down.


rasgon wrote:
...Back in high school I had the idea that St. Cuthbert and Iuz were college roommates in 20th century Earth, and that's where their rivalry began. For some reason, that seemed like a great idea at the time...


-Why not? It's as good as anything else... Wink

rasgon wrote:
Oerth was originally conceived as a close parallel to Earth, so it's possible it generated its own Saint Cuthbert separate from Earth's saint...

-I'll buy that as an elegant solution.
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Dark_Lord_Galen
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jamesdglick wrote:
rasgon wrote:
...Mayaheine is from the Oerth of the New Infinities Gord the Rogue series, the one destroyed by Tharizdun and Entropy. She was sent by Pelor to an alternate timeline—the world of the PCs—to warn them of this possible future and help them avoid it...


-Parallel universes are a good explanation for why your Greyhawk campaign looks a little different from my campaign, from DLG's campaign, and so on.

Agreed, Which is why I was supportive of this approach as well... it is as EGG planned it .. to allow each DM (sorry millennials GM are for other systems) to customize his vision into their own.

jamesdglick wrote:


-Zagyg is from Oerth (AFAIK), so wouldn't he be able to interfere as much as a deity as he did as a mortal? Besides, Zagyg seems to meddle all the time. It's almost a cliché. I've even used it once... Wink

Again I definitely agree!.... just because in MC Boccob made the sponsorship doesn't make him (nor any of the gods) omnipresent nor omnipotent. Zagyg must have his machinations after all... insert wicked laugh here.

jamesdglick wrote:
rasgon wrote:
...While it's certainly possible to come up with explanations for why this sort of thing might happen... I'm mostly worried about offending people by suggesting that beloved national saints like Joan of Arc, St. Cuthbert, Mother Teresa, etc. might have abandoned their religions to set themselves up as gods in a secondary fantasy world. Obviously that might not be a problem for every group...


-I've thought the same thing, but as the cliché goes, some of my best players are Christian. Wink Gygax didn't seem to have a problem with creating St. C and Pholtus as parodies of Christianity, and he was a Christian. I'm still just looking for original intent. Even if you're a Gygaxian Purist (I'm not), he did change his mind about things all the time.

Me personally have no issue with it (and am a practicing catholic), BUT my first thought is WOW how far we have come from the early 80's Church crucifixions of D&D.. this converse would have never happened then... and for some, it is still a stigma wound not discussed....

"oh I play a game weekly with friends" but sometimes (and admittedly I even do it) we may not say WHAT game because of those old scars that still exist.

Even EGG recognized this when they totally revamped the Deities and Demigods books to exclude most of the original myths and legends from our own culture defined down to AC, Thaco and HP.
And he chose to create lesser known facsimiles with new names and backgrounds and myths to keep the pulpits at bay.

As to what did Mayaheine's home world look like??... for MC, a darker parallel of Oerth where all the bad and untimely choices where made and the elder gods (Pelor being one) chose to not to live with nor make the same mistakes with this one in fear of that final collapse leading to release of Tharizdun and oblivion.

Imagine a world where Iuz has razed Furyondy to the ground. The Bandit Kingdoms having no choice ally with him, just as the Perrenlanders, out of self preservation. They combined with the stone-holders of the north to round up and scourge the remaining pockets of resistance once known as the Nomadic tribes of the plains and those of the Rizian North.

The Queen of Celene knowing the collapse is immanent appeals to the Lendor elves for assistance, but that assistance (due to the long tendered isolationist policies of both elven kingdoms, will come to late from their cousins to the east. Because Iuz has, via the rebirth of the Temple of the Eye, made a pact of revenge possible with the dark elves of the shadows to visit death upon the descendants of Corellon as retributions for the curses he bestowed to his former wife and their Goddess master.....

Mayaheine and others tried in vane to rally what remained of the hope of light, but the bickering and misplayed trust, poor plans, and lack of timely action had already sealed their fate.

Even their power waned away due to the lack of worshipers and believers, what choice did the remaining gods have other than to seek out the Weavers... or Norns, Fates or Furies, as some called them, and reweave the fate of all. BUT that was not without a price.... and as they say, that is a tale for another time.

And those are just some of the highlights!!!...... but you get the idea...


This allows me to accept what I choose as canon from pre 1e all the way thru to LG, and fanon, and still keep faithful to others realities that we commonly share as Greyhawk.


DLG
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VikingLegion
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know anything about this Mayaheine or her personality/character, so I might be completely off the rails here, but the idea of a high level paladin transplanting from another world immediately made me think of Ortho - the homeworld of the Harmonium faction (from the Planescape setting).

For those unfamiliar, the Harmonium are a collective of strict, ultra-rigid lawmaker types that believe peace and prosperity can only be accomplished under one rule: theirs. They originate from a world called Ortho, but have since taken their (holy?) mission to the planes, setting themselves up as the police force of Sigil. I know some folks at Planewalker.com started to detail the world of Ortho, but I used my own version of it in a worlds-spanning multiversal campaign. I view them as being paladins with a truly good original intent, which got perverted over time by arrogance and intolerance.
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Dark_Lord_Galen
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VikingLegion wrote:
I don't know anything about this Mayaheine or her personality/character, so I might be completely off the rails here, but the idea of a high level paladin transplanting from another world immediately made me think of Ortho - the homeworld of the Harmonium faction (from the Planescape setting).

I would agree certainly a possible approach
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Long but hopefullty Interesting Post
Reading through some old AOL postings (thanks to Pierre Couture for that and the return to English translations) there were several postings that were stored as Best of AOL files, Pierre then converted those into PDF files.

Anyway, drilling into this particular topic one entry does come to mind that was conversed by longtime GH'ers Tamerlain with input from Iquander, EGG, & TSR Roger
Old AOL postings from GH Greats wrote:

Dated 25 Apr 96 it tantalizes the possibilities around the God and alternate possibilities....
Paraphrased to the topic....
Subj: On the Gods (1)
Date: 96-04-25 22:19:03 EDT
From: Tamerlain
The following few entries are things I wrote up, when thinking about the Oerth deities (after having read the F&A for FR)...note that these accounts would not necessarily be how the powers of the several different pantheons on Oerth would account for their existence...they have different agendas and different relationships with their followers.... (This is going to take a bit of space too....)

Worship in the Flanaess In the Flanaess, the cultural migrations have led to a very broad and intermixed group of pantheons. ...........
Among the rarest of all occurrences in the universe, a mortal may ascend to the heights of deityhood. This happens probably more commonly on Oerth than in any other sphere; here there are four or five personages who have reached the quasi- or hero- power status in the last century or so, and two humans (Vecna, a native of Oerth, and Mayaheine, who arrived from another Crystal Sphere or Plane) who have become demipowers. It is also conjectured that St. Cuthbert was originally a human hero, but if this is so his ascension is lost in the mist of antiquity.

Since The Accord there have been few new deities arrive from "the outside." The clannish and Oerthcentric nature of Oerth denizens is reflected in its powers as well as its mortals. Mayaheine is the first recorded "human" power known to have come to Oerth from "the outside," and it is conjectured her appearance is solely due to three factors:
    1. The rampant spread of evil in the Flanaess;
    2. The incapacitation of St. Cuthbert due to his interference with the Iuz/Vecna debacle and his maintaining of the members of the Circle of Eight even though Vecna apparently destroyed them (see Vecna Lives), and,
    3. The fact that Kelanen had not yet ascended to demipower status at the time of the Greyhawk Wars. Mayaheine was probably allowed influence on Oerth to make up for the imbalance caused by the vacuum on the side of
    good and neutral (it is conjectured that Rao, Istus or even Beory herself had a hand in this).


Subj: On the Gods, Pantheons,
Date: 96-04-25 22:23:45 EDT
From: Tamerlain

So the Crystal Spheres would be a good place to expand......but if that be the path, one must first seek to understand the relationship to the gods and the spheres... but that is a tale for another time.

DLG
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rasgon wrote:
Oerth was originally conceived as a close parallel to Earth, so it's possible it generated its own Saint Cuthbert separate from Earth's saint.


The predominant characteristics of Greyhawk's St. Cuthbert—seem unique to D&D and have nothing to do with the historical saint.

I like the idea of leaving St. Cuthbert's origin vague. Maybe he came from somewhere else, maybe he didn't. Maybe he was from Earth, but named after the historical St. Cuthbert.


I've skimmed but not read the Dragon article where the PC's are transported to our Earth to recover the mace of Cuthbert from a modern museum. Does that work make more clear the connection between our historical Cuthbert and the Greyhawk god?
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rasgon
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirt wrote:
I've skimmed but not read the Dragon article where the PC's are transported to our Earth to recover the mace of Cuthbert from a modern museum. Does that work make more clear the connection between our historical Cuthbert and the Greyhawk god?


Not really. St. Cuthbert left his mace in London in 1932, using the name "Edward Cuthbert." Note that time flows faster on Oerth, so that's over 640 years ago in Oerth time.

Quote:
Long before the Sainted Cuthbert rose to his exalted station, his mace was hidden away from those who would steal it before he returned for it, hidden away outside the bounds of normal time and space, in a place so outlandish that the Mace’s power and destiny would be unknown and unknowable, and thus safe.


It's possible that he was the historical St. Cuthbert, returning to his homeworld after centuries away and using a false name. He could also be a native of Oerth, choosing Earth as a hiding place simply because it's so alien. It's also conceivable that Edward Cuthbert was his real name and the 1930s were his native time, though if the PCs investigate they discover that no records of him exist, supporting the idea that it's a pseudonym and/or he originated in a time much earlier than the 1930s.

It may be notable that Earth historians date the Mace of Cuthbert to the twelfth century, though since the Mace was probably forged on Oerth that might not tell us much.

The fourth Doctor Who has a cameo in that adventure, leaving open the outside possibility that St. Cuthbert was a Time Lord. The adventure doesn’t suggest this, but if Time Lords exist in that universe, it seems possible that "Edward Cuthbert" was one of them. Maybe he's the Monk, who has a known affinity with Saxons.
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