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Canon Coinage Of Defunct States?

 
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CruelSummerLord
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:38 pm    Post subject: Canon Coinage Of Defunct States? Reply with quote

One of the many, many great things about the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer is how it provides all sorts of interesting worldbuilding bits about the different states of the Flanaess. One of these is the types of coinage issued by the different states. Listing Dyvers' coinage helped me write the scene in Ghosts Of The Past where Amyalla bails Weimar out of the city jail after he gets into a bar brawl.

However, the list is not complete. The coinage of states like Almor, Idee, and the Horned Society are not listed.

Do these sources exist in canon anywhere? I know I'm a big proponent of throwing out canon and doing one's own thing, but that applies to canon that interferes with the kinds of stories I want to tell. In this case, these coinages don't interfere at all, and can only enhance the story.
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Vulcan
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There may not be canon currencies for those nations.

Historically, it was only pretty recently that every nation minted unique currency. Lots of nations just used the currency of whatever powerful empire happened to be nearby.

Almor was part of the Great Kingdom until the Greyhawk War., so they almost certainly retain the same currency scheme.

Idee, being close enough to be heavily influenced by the Great Kingdom, might do the same. Idee might also use Onnwal or Sunndi currency instead, as part of the Iron League. Or, most likely, they use a mixture of all three.

The Horned Society, being an offshoot of Iuz, which itself was a consolidation of dozens of petty independent nations balancing the civilization of Furyondy with the wilds beyond, probably uses a mishmash of currency. Nyrond and Furyondy coinage would be common, along with whatever Iuz or the Heirarchs mint, leftover currency from the petty nobles that predated Iuz, and coinage from who knows where.


One more detail for you. Greyhawk is positively lousy with ancient treasure troves and fallen civilizations. And seeking said treasure are thousands and thousands of adventurers, some of whom actually succeed. In every realm there will be modern coins circulating right alongside coinage minted in the old Suel and Baklunish Empires, Vecna's fallen realm, and who knows how many others.

One of my parties found a pouch of ancient and very rare copper coins. They didn't realize just HOW rare until they spent some in a Greyhawk inn... and were suddenly besieged by thieves bypassing their gold to try and get those particular coins.
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DMPrata
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only canon I can cite is the coin of Almor, which is described in Greyhawk Adventures as a “normal-looking platinum coin”. That means Almor minted platinum coins.
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grodog
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DMPrata wrote:
The only canon I can cite is the coin of Almor, which is described in Greyhawk Adventures as a “normal-looking platinum coin”. That means Almor minted platinum coins.


These are the coins listed in Jason Zavoda's index (which, unfortunately, doesn't mention the nation/state/city that mints the coins, other than for Dyvers):

Quote:

Anvil (ep)[COIN]
LGG - 119

Axeman (ep)[COIN]
LGG - 102

Basic (cp)[COIN]
LGG - 80

Bastion (pp)[COIN]
LGG - 66

Bellflower (sp)[COIN]
LGG - 38,118

Bright (ep)[COIN]
LGG - 123,124

Bright (pp)[COIN]
LGG - 80

Bright Ship (ep)[COIN]
LGG - 100

Bright Skull (ep)[COIN]
LGG - 58

Brilliant (pp)[COIN]
LGG - 128

Castle (sp)[COIN]
LGG - 123

Charger (sp)[COIN]
LGG - 42

Circle (sp)[COIN]
LGG - 112

Citadel (pp)[COIN]
LGG - 40

Common (cp)[COIN]
LGG - 21,35,40,45,51,55,58,72,75,89,91,99,100,110,112,119,
123,124,131,134

Copper Common (Dyvers)[COIN]
SLV - 8

Coppercask (cp)[COIN]
LGG - 116

Crook (gp)[COIN]
LGG - 128

Crown (gp)[COIN]
LGG - 21,72,89

Cup (gp)[COIN]
LGG - 42

Dao (cp)[COIN]
LGG - 136

Djinn (sp)[COIN]
LGG - 136

Dolphin (ep)[COIN]
LGG - 70

Dragon (pp)[COIN]
LGG - 72

Dragoneye (gp)[COIN]
LGG - 55

Ducat (gp)[COIN]
LGG - 112

Duck (cp)[COIN]
LGG - 79
LOG - 35,36
ONW1-01 - 8,10,12
ONW1-02 - 5,7,8,9,10,11

Dullbone (Bronze Piece)[COIN]
LGG - 58

Eagle (ep)[COIN]
LGG - 32,48,49,63,106

Efrit (gp)[COIN]
LGG - 136

Electrum Galley (Dyvers)[COIN]
SLV - 8

Fez (ep)[COIN]
LGG - 115

Flat (Iron Piece)[COIN]
LGG - 58

Forge (gp)[COIN]
LGG - 119

Fountain (gp)[COIN]
LGG - 115

Freegold (gp)[COIN]
LGG - 134

Galley (ep)[COIN]
LGG - 40,42

Geese (sp)[COIN]
ONW1-01 - 8,10,11,12
ONW1-02 - 5,8,9,10,11

Giftring (gp)[COIN]
LGG - 108

Gold Admiral (gp)[COIN]
LGG - 100

Gold Baron (gp)[COIN]
LGG - 99

Gold Duke (gp)[COIN]
LGG - 124

Gold Glory (gp)[COIN]
LGG - 80

Gold Skull (gp)[COIN]
LGG - 58

Gold Wheatsheaf (Dyvers)[COIN]
SLV - 8

Goldsun (gp)[COIN]
LGG - 116

Goose (sp)[COIN]
LGG - 79
LOG - 34,36

Great Anchor (pp)[COIN]
LGG - 70

Great Lunar (ep)[COIN]
LGG - 53

Greatshield (gp)[COIN]
LGG - 66

Griffon (pp)[COIN]
LGG - 32,48,49,63,106

Grimfist (cp)[COIN]
LGG - 108

Grossmark (pp)[COIN]
LGG - 85

Gull (gp)[COIN]
LGG - 79
LOG - 35,36
ONW1-01 - 8,10,11,12
ONW1-02 - 9,10,11
ONW1-05 - 4,7

Haf-Kronar (ep)[COIN]
LGG - 44,54,105

Hafmark (ep)[COIN]
LGG - 85

Halefist (sp)[COIN]
LGG - 108

Halfgold (ep)[COIN]
LGG - 91,134

Hammer (sp)[COIN]
LGG - 119

Hand (cp)[COIN]
LGG - 128

Hawk (sp)[COIN]
LGG - 48,63,106


Helm (cp)[COIN]
LGG - 66

Heron (cp)[COIN]
LGG - 49

High Crown (pp)[COIN]
LGG - 119

Highlord (pp)[COIN]
LGG - 100

Hookah (sp)[COIN]
LGG - 115

Ivid (gp)[Coin]
LGG - 35

Kleinmark (sp)[COIN]
LGG - 85

Knight (ep)[COIN]
LGG - 45,131

Knight (gp)[COIN]
LGG - 102

Kronar (gp)[COIN]
LGG - 44,54,105

Kurush (cp)[COIN]
LGG - 122

Lance (sp)[COIN]
LGG - 66

Leaf (pp)[COIN]
LGG - 131

Linnwurm (sp)[COIN]
LGG - 44,54,105


Lion (gp)[COIN]
LGG - 32,48,49,63,106

Lucky (ep)[COIN]
LGG - 51

Magnus (pp)[COIN]
LGG - 112


Magus (pp)[COIN]
LGG - 136

Marcher (ep)[COIN]
LGG -

Marid (ep)[COIN]
LGG - 136

Mark (gp)[COIN]
LGG - 85

Minaret (pp)[COIN]
LGG - 115

Mirrorpool (ep)[COIN]
LGG - 116

Moonveil (pp)[COIN]
LGG - 38,118

New Crown (gp)[COIN]
LGG - 110

New Plate (pp)[COIN]
LGG - 110

Newgold (gp)[COIN]
LGG - 91


Nightingale (pp)[COIN]
LGG - 21

Noble (ep)[COIN]
LGG - 21,35,51,72,99,110

Noble (gp)[COIN]
LGG - 75,123

Oakleaf (cp)[COIN]
LGG - 38,118

Okka (sp)[COIN]
LGG - 122

Orb (gp)[COIN]
LGG - 51

Orb (pp)[COIN]
LGG - 35,89,99

Owl (cp)[COIN]
LGG - 48

Paladin (pp)[COIN]
LGG - 45

Penny (sp)[COIN]
LGG - 21,35,72,89,91,99

Pfennig (cp)[COIN]
LGG - 85

Plate (pp)[COIN]
LGG - 51

Platinum Citadel (Dyvers)[COIN]
SLV - 8

Roc (cp)[COIN]
LGG - 32

Scepter (ep)[COIN]
LGG - 89

Sea Eagle (pp)[COIN]
LGG - 79
LOG - 35,36
ONW1-01 - 10
ONW1-02 - 11
SEE Also Coran Calimbore

Sentry (cp)[COIN]
LGG - 42

Serpent (sp)[COIN]
LGG - 58

Sheaf (cp)[COIN]
LGG - 102

Shelly (cp)[COIN]
LGG - 70

Sheridan (sp)[COIN]
LGG - 45

Shield (sp)[COIN]
LGG - 75,102,124


Shinepiece (ep)[COIN]
LGG - 75

Shootingstar (ep)[COIN]
LGG - 118

Silver (sp)[COIN]
LGG - 100,110,134

Silver Moon (sp)[COIN]
LGG - 80

Silver Sun (ep)[COIN]
LGG - 80

Silver Wagon (Dyvers)[COIN]
SLV - 8

Silvermoon (sp)[COIN]
LGG - 116

Small Lunar (sp)[COIN]
LGG - 53

Solar (gp)[COIN]
LGG - 53

Sparrow (cp)[COIN]
LGG - 63

Sparrow (gp)[COIN]
LGG - 106

Spire (sp)[COIN]
LGG - 131

Staff (ep)[COIN]
LGG - 128

Stag (sp)[COIN]
LGG - 32

Star (pp)[COIN]
LGG - 42

Starcloak (ep)[COIN]
LGG - 38


Starry (sp)[COIN]
LGG - 55

Sterling (pp)[COIN]
LGG - 75,123

Sterling Duke (pp)[COIN]
LGG - 124

Suncrown (gp)[COIN]
LGG - 38,118

Sunship (gp)[COIN]
LGG - 70,121,

Thrall (cp)[COIN]
LGG - 44,54,105

Token (cp)[COIN]
LGG - 115

Tower (sp)[COIN]
LGG - 128

Trident (sp)[COIN]
LGG - 70

Victory (pp)[COIN]
LGG - 91

Wader (ep)[COIN]
LGG - 79
LOG - 35,36
ONW1-01 - 10,11,12

Wagon (ep)[COIN]
LGG - 66

Wagon (sp)[COIN]
LGG - 40

Wheat (cp)[COIN]
LGG - 53

Wheatsheaf (gp)[COIN]
LGG - 40,45,131

Wheel (Iron Piece)[COIN]
LGG - 72

White Owl (sp)[COIN]
LGG - 49



As well as these off-topic, but still keyword-driven coin references:

Quote:

Dweomer Dots
SEE Ehlonnas Coins

Ehlonna, Coins of [ITM]
NA - 259-261,271,272


Fellowship of the Coin [ORG]
LOG - 53,103,107

Lord of Coin
SEE Zilchus

Tensers Fortunate Coin [ITM]
RTO8 - 52,64

Zilchus [Deity]
(Lord of Coin, Flail of Propriety, Purse of Plenty)
COG:FFF - 29,35
COG:GOTF - 65
COLTM - 7,18
DRG#253 - 44,45
DRG#299 - 100
DRG#AN3 - 102
FTAA - 93,95
FTAC - 8,15
FTAR#4
IVID
LGG - 21,22,24,32,40,45,48,49,51,55,63,72,75,79,81,85,91,97
,106,123,125,129,131,134,174,181,183,188,189
LGJ#2 - 5,9
LGJ#3 - 17
LGJ#5 - 4
LOG - 16,22,33,35,40,44,51,52,53,55,56,63,78,79,82,89,94
,105,106,108
ONW1-06 - 4,5,10
PGTG - 18,19,21
SLV - 8,34
SOOC - 77
T1-4 - 120
TAB - 28,31,46,63,71,88,92,102,114,117,121,122
TSB - 85
WG8 - 5
WGA4 - 27
WGR4 - IC,5,13,33,65,66
WGS1 - 6,8
WOGA - 63

Zilchus, Halls of the Shining Coin (Sornhill)[TMP]
LOG - 78
ONW1-06 - 5


The listing above doesn't take into account Gygax's Gord coinage for the City of Greyhawk (see Chris Siren's old site @ https://web.archive.org/web/20151011034724/http://home.comcast.net/~chris.s/gordmisc.html#currency

It also doesn't take into account the bronze pieces from WG4 Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun. IIRC coins were minted (for Furyondy perhaps??) at the Obsidian Citadel per Artifact of Evil, too.

I'll venture that the standard cp/sp/ep/gp/pp coinage probably originated with the Great Kingdom, and that most of the lands that were under its control leverage that base form of currency (much like Common). Other nations that never felt the Great Kingdom's rule (Keoland, The Suloise and Baklunish empire, et al) would be likely to have more-divergent currency systems. Similarly, nations/organizations hostile to the GK (like the Iron League, Nyrond/Almor, etc.) may have adopted different currencies in order to try to destabilize the GK's own financial base/resources, too.

I've always been fond of Lankhmar's Diamond in Amber Gluditch as well, and figure there must be other strange and outlandish equivalences in Greyhawk, too. Inspired by that and Gygax's Gord currencies, I added steel, mithral, and adamanite coins to the currency list in some of my campaigns, too....

Allan.
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CruelSummerLord
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So it looks like, in many cases, there aren't any canon sources for the coinage of defunct states. So I'll have to make up my own... Happy

Almor: Although Gary Holian has said that Hieroneous was Almor's state religion, I disagree for a few reasons. For one thing, the 1983 boxed set's alignment map shows Almor as NG and CG, as opposed to the LG and LN one might expect from a nation dedicated to Hieroneous, like Nyrond. The Almorians were also pathetic fighters, almost as bad as Greyhawk, Dyvers or even many of the Bandit Kingdoms. They relied more on their compassion and good nature to make their enemies feel gratitude and reluctant to attack them, which didn't help much during the Greyhawk Wars when the Aerdi treacherously turned on them.

So instead, I consider Pelor to be Almor's state religion. In keeping with that, I base Almor's coinage on sky imagery, similar to how Onnwal based its coinage on seabirds, or the Lordship of the Isles on various nautical imagery:

Platinum suns, gold stars, electrum skies, silver moons, copper clouds.

Unfortunately, this only applies to Almor before the Greyhawk Wars. The Prelacy of Almor that is revived after the Wars is a Nyrondal province, fully incorporated into the kingdom. Almor became Nyrond's clerical see, a dominion for the church of Hieroneous in recognition of the role the Archpaladin's clergy have played in maintaining public morale during the despair of Nyrond's post-war years, in protecting Archbold during Sewarndt's coup attempt, and in supporting Lynwerd's opposition to the Theocracy of the Pale's occupation of his northern lands. The church of Pelor, especially Prelate Kevont, are bitterly angry and disappointed, but there is little they can do.

The Horned Empire: After destroying the Shield Lands, assisting in the destruction of Iuz's state and co-opting many of the western Bandit Kingdoms (most notably the Warfields, left leaderless after Holmer slew Hok in single combat during the Shield Lands' valiant last stand), the Horned Society reorganized itself as the Horned Empire.

The Horned Empire presents an image of steel and blood, not unlike some real-life fascist and communist regimes. To that end, their coinage projected a similar image:

Platinum blades, gold horns, electrum claws, silver fangs, copper nails.

Idee: The Ideeans had a very laid-back, "live and let live" culture that was very tolerant and open to different ideas and ways of life. However, they also combined this with a wariness and skill at siege warfare, given the length of fortresses they had to raise to guard against South Province.

Unfortunately, for all their open-mindedness and welcoming nature, the Ideeans could sometimes let this siege mentality get the better of them, as Ma'non'go of the Silver Winds and Luna and Seline Roas Del Cranden learned after being exiled from their homes in South Province. As a result, I thought that the siege mentality would be reflected in their coinage.

This only applies to pre-Wars Idee, of course. After the Greyhawk Wars, it was overrun by Ahlissa and made into the Principality of Naerie, so it obviously uses Ahlissa's coinage.

Platinum fortresses, gold castles, electrum keeps, silver towers, copper shields.

Medegia: Medegia used the standard coinage issued by the Great Kingdom before the Greyhawk Wars, which is described in the LGG's entry on Bone March. However, Medegia's destruction has left a largely wild no-man's land in its wake, where bandits, orcs and exiled Aerdi nobles fight with each other as much for survival as for power.

Pontylver survived the Wars in relatively good shape and quickly declared for Ahlissa, but Mentrey and the lands closer to the centre of the old See are claimed as much by Rel Astra as Ahlissa. Most of the people actually living in the disputed Medegian lands care nothing for politics and would likely distrust Xavener and Drax equally, caring only for their own survival and power bases, and little else.

As a result, pretty much any coinage is accepted in the Medegian lands, from Ahlissan crowns to Rel Astran newgolds to even old Great Kingdom Ivids. Should either Ahlissa or Rel Astra gain a firm hold in what was once Medegia, they would almost certainly impose their own coinage as the default.
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DMPrata
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CruelSummerLord wrote:
Idee: The Ideeans had a very laid-back, "live and let live" culture that was very tolerant and open to different ideas and ways of life. However, they also combined this with a wariness and skill at siege warfare, given the length of fortresses they had to raise to guard against South Province.

Unfortunately, for all their open-mindedness and welcoming nature, the Ideeans could sometimes let this siege mentality get the better of them, as Ma'non'go of the Silver Winds and Luna and Seline Roas Del Cranden learned after being exiled from their homes in South Province. As a result, I thought that the siege mentality would be reflected in their coinage.

This only applies to pre-Wars Idee, of course. After the Greyhawk Wars, it was overrun by Ahlissa and made into the Principality of Naerie, so it obviously uses Ahlissa's coinage.

Platinum fortresses, gold castles, electrum keeps, silver towers, copper shields.

The others look good, but given Idee’s pre-Wars heraldry, I’d suggest a more nautical theme, like ships, gulls, and anchors.
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CruelSummerLord
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DMPrata wrote:

The others look good, but given Idee’s pre-Wars heraldry, I’d suggest a more nautical theme, like ships, gulls, and anchors.


I had considered this, but I thought it would be too similar to Onnwal (which uses different types of sea birds) and the Lordship of the Isles (which uses general naval imagery) and I didn't think Idee would want to imitate them. Nor does it necessarily play as much into Idee's geopolitical situation (Onnwal is a peninsula and the Lordship is an archipelago, while Idee has extensive highlands and forests in addition to being a maritime land).

As Idee's heraldry was probably designed before it began issuing its own coinage, I wonder whether seafaring played more of a role in the Ideean psyche that was later displaced by the concentration on siege warfare, given that its waterways were so well-protected by the Iron League alliance.
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Dark_Lord_Galen
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just as a general "snippet" to the topic.. the electrum piece certainly could be considered as a "lost" coin for any that bridged thee old 1e/2e into the Greyhawk world.

ref
1ePHBp35
2ePHBp66
by 3ePHBp96 the EP had disappeared....

And just for visual reference, there is a picture of a Greyhawk City Coin on 3ePHBp146
Just a thought
2cp

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