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A Song of Black Ice and Fire
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MToscan
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:21 am    Post subject: A Song of Black Ice and Fire Reply with quote

Hi everyone, nice to be here after a long pause :) (but not from play, I have played a lot of Greyhawk in 2012!).
I am building up a wiki of my personal Greyhawk campaign setting which is a mix of canon and events happened during play in various interconnected adventures and campaigns (in Italian, sorry!).

One thing I was struggling a bit with lately was the political and administrative network of the Flanaess. Since I love the medieval feel of A Song of Ice and Fire and Expeditious Retreat0s A Magical Medieval Society, and I really like how all the tiles in GRRM world fit, I have been hacking a bit at the campaign setting as to fit that version of feudalism in our beloved Greyhawk.

In my world, obviously, Flans had no real feudal system and they're mainly tribe-based like the ancient populations of north-Africa and western Asia (I have to decide exactly how to fit Sulm and the Empire of Vecna in this picture, but let's say they will not be like our Middle Ages at all, maybe more similar to Akkadia?).
The feudal system as we know it is a Suel invention. Suel was an Imperium with some vassal Kingdoms underneath and noble houses like Rhola, Skotti, Frutcii, Cruskii etc. interconnected by a system of fealty and protection.
Oeridians blatantly copied Suel's manoral/feudal system and made it their own (a little bit like the Romans absorbed customs and gods from other cultures like the Greeks), so we have strict similitudes between the two. The Baklunish west of course has his own tiered system strictly interconnected with religion so instead of houses they have dynasties and dynasties have some sort of religious background.
I decided to simplify a bit on the various marches, duchies, counties, shires, earldoms, etc, by having only Kingdoms and Lordships. The Great Kingdom, Iuz and Kaoland are now Empires, and Nyrond, Ferrond, Veluna, Gran March, Geoff etc. all Kindoms of their own with major houses and so on leading them. House Kaszinkaia is a Major house in Veluna, as House Skotti is a powerful house in Keoland, for instance.

Thillronian barbarians and Ratik have a slightly different clan-based social system instead of our system of major houses and cadet branches, but that I explained as being a system they copied from the dwarves and frost giants (that explains why kings/jarls and cultures seem to be similar between these groups).

Working on this train of thought, Oeridians might have made Flan gods as we know them. Flan prayed to formless spirits of nature but Oeridians just absorbed them in our culture and made them similar to their gods (also coming from other minor and nameless subdued cultures). You still see "old school" Flan worship in the so called Old Faith in the mountains surrounding Perrenland, for instance. It would be like the Romans took Indian American spirits and gave them a shape and a book of rituals and priesthood etc.

Coming to my aid is also the fact that Greyhawk onomastics is completely random, but we have a LOT of important NPCs with surnames :) hence we have House Jakartai, House Sallavarian, House Jalucian and so on. Some house names might also be completely bought with money or influence, like the brand new (and scoffed by real nobility) House Gasgal and House Nenshen.

Here I need some help on Geoff however. Is there any official or semi official note on Duke Owen (renamed Lord Owen) name?

(I don't have anything against leaving independent duchies as they are, but I find it clearer to tell my players Geoff is a Kingdom which swore (frail) fealty to the Empire of Keoland).

Has someone collected official House names in Greyhawk? Is there some note on how these houses are interconnected?
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smillan_31
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:29 am    Post subject: Re: A Song of Black Ice and Fire Reply with quote

MToscan wrote:
Here I need some help on Geoff however. Is there any official or semi official note on Duke Owen (renamed Lord Owen) name?


Even in the Gyruff Gazetteer I couldn't find a house name, but then the LG Geoff is based on Wales and if you look at most of the independent Princes of Wales in the medieval period, you don't see house names applied to them, merely things like Dafydd ap Llywelyn -- 'ap' meaning 'son of.' Some English historians applied house names to some of the dynasties of the various Welsh kingdoms, but as far as we know that's more an application by foreigners to try and shoehorn the Welsh royalty into their own system than anything the Welsh used. Generally they seemed to apply geographic origin or the name of the dynasty's genitor as house names. Owen (presumably) is descended from Rohan IV, son of the Count of Pregmere, who won the title of Grand Duke at the conclusion of a civil war. So in that case you could go with Owen Rohan or Owen Pregmere. Or you could just say the Geoffi don't use house names and he's just known as Owen ap Lluth (Lluth being his father in the GG).

MToscan wrote:
(I don't have anything against leaving independent duchies as they are, but I find it clearer to tell my players Geoff is a Kingdom which swore (frail) fealty to the Empire of Keoland).

Has someone collected official House names in Greyhawk? Is there some note on how these houses are interconnected?


Do you mean the Domain of Greyhawk or just Greyhawk the world? If the latter, I don't think anyone has compiled a list yet, but if you search through the Encyclopedia Greyhawkia for [CLN], which is the designation of clan, family, or tribe, you could probably get a good list to start with.
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rasgon
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:13 pm    Post subject: Re: A Song of Black Ice and Fire Reply with quote

This sounds like a wonderful project. The Song of Ice and Fire has very evocative, clear noble houses that help the reader feel invested in their politics, and it'd be nice if Greyhawk had something like that. Of course, Westeros only has seven kingdoms to deal with.

In Greyhawk, seven houses of Aerdy are pretty well detailed, as are the houses of Rhola and Neheli in Keoland (which has been kicking the Black Lion Throne between them like a kickball for most of their kingdom's history, with Mandros and Kimbertos the only rulers not of one or the other royal house). Since between them Aerdy and Keoland have at one time or another ruled pretty much the entire Flanaess, it's a pretty good bet that most of the major noble families in Greyhawk are related somehow to the royal lines of Keoland and the Great Kingdom.

MToscan wrote:
In my world, obviously, Flans had no real feudal system and they're mainly tribe-based like the ancient populations of north-Africa and western Asia (I have to decide exactly how to fit Sulm and the Empire of Vecna in this picture, but let's say they will not be like our Middle Ages at all, maybe more similar to Akkadia?).


There's also Queen Ehlissa's kingdom, Keraptis's tyranny, the Isles of Woe, Almadia, Veralos, Nuria, and Caerdiralor for you to ignore or explain. I personally like the idea that the Flan had many sophisticated civilizations in the ancient past before they were destroyed by one another, by plague, by monsters and demons and the Tarrasque and, eventually, the Great Migrations because it means more ancient ruins to explore and more ancient mysteries to solve, but of course your mileage may vary.

Of course, that doesn't mean the Flan were feudal, or that they weren't tribe-based, just that I like them building cities, fortresses, temples, towers, labyrinths, and dungeons to delve. Without that, Greyhawk's history is too short for my tastes.

Quote:
Here I need some help on Geoff however. Is there any official or semi official note on Duke Owen (renamed Lord Owen) name?


In the Living Greyhawk campaign he was known as Owen ap Lluth, which just meant he was the son of Lluth. He was said to have married the daughter of King Kimbertos (Calisse) in CY 592.

When in doubt, I use the name of the capital, the name of the family lands, or the name of the nation as the name of the royal house (which is why I've assumed the name of King Belvor of Furyondy's house was Fairwain, though Belvor's ancestors were probably one of the noble houses of Aerdy - perhaps Darmen or Torquann), so perhaps Owen belongs to the House of Gorna.

A Living Greyhawk document called "Rulers and Nobility of Gyruff [Geoff]" says this:

Quote:
As recently as CY 497, Llwyr Granus of Rhychdir Rhos, grown overly rich and powerful, tried to claim the Griffon Chair [the throne of Geoff] from Rohan III. After the deaths of both the Brenin [Grand Duke] and his challenger and four years of bloody civil war, Granus’ son became Rohan IV and finally brought peace again to Gyruff [Geoff]. I am sure Duke Owen has not forgotten how his family came to the Griffon Chair.


So perhaps he belongs to the House of Granus? Your call.

Quote:
Has someone collected official House names in Greyhawk? Is there some note on how these houses are interconnected?


You'll have to do most of the work yourself, I'm sure; there really isn't a lot of information to have, especially on the distaff lines. I'll poke around a bit and see what I can find, though.

House of Lizhal. From Living Greyhawk Journal #1: a minor Suel house that migrated with the houses of Rhola and Neheli through the Passage of Slerotin. Heavily intermarried with both Oeridian and elven bloodlines. Currently controls the Barony of Grayhill in Keoland. Both King Kimbertos Skotti and his younger brother, Baron Markos Skotti of Grayhill, are of this house. Presumably "Skotti" is the name of the branch of the House of Lizhal they belong to; perhaps the name is of Oeridian origin? Whatever; the king's family is Skotti, but his house is Lizhal. Richart Jorgos, Viscount of Nume Eor, is also of the House of Lizhal and a cousin of the king.

House of Linth. From Living Greyhawk Journal #1: a minor Suel house, generally considered to be in decline. This house rules the Earldom of Linth. The wizard Baltron was of this house.

House of Neheli. One of the most powerful of the Keoish Suel houses, closely allied with the Silent Ones, founded Niole Dra, the house of many of the Keoish kings, has terrible secrets in its distant past related to its dealings with Vecna. Rules the Duchy of Dorlin. Prone to marrying elves. Haunted by rumors of madness. Currently headed by Duke Cedrian III, nephew of Keoland's previous king (Trevlyan III of the House of Neheli). Traditional rivals of the House of Rhola. The Baron of the Axewood, Anladon II, his half Neheli and half elf and kin to both Duke Cedrian III and the Duke of Ulek. The Baron of Dilwych, Malweig I, is a Neheli and quite mad. I'm still referencing Living Greyhawk Journal #1.

House of Rhola. The other founding house of Keoland. Founded Gradsul. Many Keoish kings were of this house. Known for naval pursuits, love of exploration, and lust for conquest. Rules Duchy of Gradsul. Traditional reverence of Keoghtom. Headed by Luschan VIII, whose family (within the House of Luschan) is called Sellark. Traditional owners of the sword Vilharian, which was lost during the Siege of Westkeep in 453 CY (LGJ #4) and was known as the Sword of the Dragon in Treasures of Greyhawk. Jeon II in the Hold of the Sea Princes is secretly a descendant of King Tavish I of the House of Rhola (who Jeon II calls "Derik Drakkonheart" in WGR2 to disguise his identity). One of the brothers of Tavish III (in Samwise's timeline, this is Duke Luschan V, while in WGR2 he is unnamed) survived the Siege of Westkeep and founded the House of Monmurg under a false identity.

House of Elgarin. From LGJ #1. Allita Elgarin, a cleric of Xerbo, is Countess of Flen. Her son is Garson Elgarin. The Elgarins have ruled Flen for centuries. LGJ1.

House of Manz. Ignas Manz, a fighter, a cultural "philistine," and a worshiper of Keoghtom, is Count of Cryllor. LGJ1.

House of Secunforth. A distant relation of the Neheli. Rules Salinmoor. Headed by Cronin Secunforth III. LGJ1.

House of Kharn. An Oeridian house. Rules March of Middlemead. Headed by Lord Kharn. LGJ1.

House of Reyd. An Oeridian house. Rules County of Nimlee. Headed by Countess Lissen Reyd. LGJ1.

House of Derwent. Erlich Derwent rules the March of Sedenna in Keoland (LGJ1). Luther Derwent rules the Viscounty of the March in Furyondy (WGR4).

House of Ravannar. Rules March of Mandismoor? Speculation based on the fact that the "infamous Castle Ravannar" is there. LGJ1.

House of Kalinstren. Headed by Baron Kalinstren of the Barony of Kalinstren in Furyondy. WGR4.

House of Jakartai. Headed by Artur Jakartai. Rules County of the Reach in Furyondy. Replaces Paulus Halpern, who died without issue. WGR4.

House of Jemian. Baron Jemian rules the Barony of Littleberg in Furyondy (WGR4).

House of Tyneman. Duke Bennal Tyneman rules the Duchy of the Reach in Furyondy (WGR4).

...Maybe I'll come back to this later! Got other things to do. Good luck!
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MToscan
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you very much!!! I knew I couldn't go wrong here eheh!
I also made a full immersion in heraldry recently as there's still nobility and interest in heraldry in my country - I even know 3 or 4 fanatics of blazons and heraldry (and actually 2 counts as well :)).

I will simplify things a little since heraldry is a bit complicated and I don't want to lose my mind in details. Like i said, all nobles are Lords and as such I'll not use titles like baron, count, viscount, margrave etc. An Overking is an Emperor, and Duchies become Kingdoms.

Houses (or "clans" among the barbarians/dwarves/thillronian and ratik) are groupings of families. The ruling family in the house can avoid using the family name and use the House name instead. All other families are so called "branches" (many beooks besides seem to use the term house and family interchangeably, which added a lot of confusion).
Families have coat of arms like Houses but are variations with the same color combination.

In tbe beginning only Houses and Families had coat of arms, but more recently also Religious and Knightly orders and cities got one. Free cities for example have mayors enrolled from noble houses which do NOT belong to the land (to ensure impartiality) and has its own coat of arms which is not related to any ruling family (or maybe Yragerne?)
This brings me to consider House Granus, Skotti family, as maybe the ruling family is extinct? Or better House Lizhal, and both Skotti and Granus were families within Lizhal... hmmm.

Agreed for the Flan and other ancient Empires. I just don't want to have any Sirs of noble families among the personalities of Flan history. They might have been satraps or whatever governor name we decide, on a culture by culture basis :)

Besides I was meditating on Wilfrick and Verbobomc right now. Since there's a Castle Greyfist, it could be Wilfrick was WIlfrick of House Greyfist, and so his first son Fenward Greyfist. Since his other son was half-elven, I was considering using Westeros naming system for highborn bastards, maybe based on the regions of the old Aerdy Empire. Highborn bastards from ferrond could be, I dunno... Stone? Hence Langard Stone.
Any ideas for bastard names in the Aerdy fedual/heraldic system?
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MToscan
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you very much!!! I knew I couldn't go wrong here eheh!
I also made a full immersion in heraldry recently as there's still nobility and interest in heraldry in my country - I even know 3 or 4 fanatics of blazons and heraldry (and actually 2 counts as well :)).

I will simplify things a little since heraldry is a bit complicated and I don't want to lose my mind in details. Like i said, all nobles are Lords and as such I'll not use titles like baron, count, viscount, margrave etc. An Overking is an Emperor, and Duchies become Kingdoms.

Houses (or "clans" among the barbarians/dwarves/thillronian and ratik) are groupings of families. The ruling family in the house can avoid using the family name and use the House name instead. All other families are so called "branches" (many beooks besides seem to use the term house and family interchangeably, which added a lot of confusion).
Families have coat of arms like Houses but are variations with the same color combination.

In tbe beginning only Houses and Families had coat of arms, but more recently also Religious and Knightly orders and cities got one. Free cities for example have mayors enrolled from noble houses which do NOT belong to the land (to ensure impartiality) and has its own coat of arms which is not related to any ruling family (or maybe Yragerne?)
This brings me to consider House Granus, Skotti family, as maybe the ruling family is extinct? Or better House Lizhal, and both Skotti and Granus were families within Lizhal... hmmm.

Agreed for the Flan and other ancient Empires. I just don't want to have any Sirs of noble families among the personalities of Flan history. They might have been satraps or whatever governor name we decide, on a culture by culture basis :)

Besides I was meditating on Wilfrick and Verbobomc right now. Since there's a Castle Greyfist, it could be Wilfrick was WIlfrick of House Greyfist, and so his first son Fenward Greyfist. Since his other son was half-elven, I was considering using Westeros naming system for highborn bastards, maybe based on the regions of the old Aerdy Empire. Highborn bastards from ferrond could be, I dunno... Stone? Hence Langard Stone.
Any ideas for bastard names in the Aerdy fedual/heraldic system?
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MToscan
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regaridng Greyhawk, I recall only Mastryne right now, so might be that families of House Mastryne are the Lords of Greyhawk (but obviously with no direct political power)?
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love this idea. It has certainly got me thinking, especially as I started looking at similar ideas for Sterich, particularly Mittleberg in the west (from Red Hand of Doom). The ruler of the city has the surname Jarmaath and could therefore head House Jarmaath etc.

One of the SOIAF RPG rule books has an interesting noble house generation system which I played around with for a bit for western Sterich with some interesting results. For example, House Jarmaath turned out to be largely impoverished and owned next to nothing whereas House Kaal (another house in the city) owned a castle and other land. This led me to the interesting story conclusion that whilst the Jarmaaths were nominal rulers, they were largely beholden to the richer (and evil) Kaals who even owned the keep they lived in. It's worth looking out this rulebook, at least in PDF if you want to conjure up some interesting ideas like this.
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rasgon
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MToscan wrote:
Regaridng Greyhawk, I recall only Mastryne right now, so might be that families of House Mastryne are the Lords of Greyhawk (but obviously with no direct political power)?


The first Lord of Greyhawk to be recognized by the Overking was Maret Nial, who (in 4 CY) was an ambitious former cavalry captain rather than (as far as we know) a member of an ancient noble house. If Maret Nial was secretly a scion of House Cranden or another Aerdi house, the official sources don't show it. In recognition of the tax money Nial sent the Great Kingdom he was named Landgraf of Selintan. Maret Nial's heir was Ganz, who married Maro Yragerne, the Gynarch of Hardby.

Hardby had been founded in 366 OR by Ena Norbe. Ena Norbe married the captain of her guard and had six daughters, who each founded one of the Six Families of Hardby. These families were (according to Dungeon #109): Yragerne, Norbelos, Gerneskir, Jonnosh, Havelos, and Maynem. After the Yragernes went extinct (Zagig was the last heir), the family of Longland was elevated to take its place among the Six Families.

The descendants of Ganz and Maro (I'll call it the Nial dynasty) ruled until 209 CY when the Landgraf of Selintan was assassinated, leaving no heirs. The commander of the Grand Citadel, Ponjes the Bull, took over and reorganized the government. The Overking eventually appointed Ponjes as the new Landgraf of Selintan. I don't see any indication that Ponjes had a family name, but I assume he took one once he gained a noble title. It's possible that it was Mastryne. Ponjes's son was Omt the Hairy, and as far as I know his dynasty continued until Zagig Yragerne bribed his way onto the Directing Oligarchy in 310 CY.

Zagig Yragerne was rumored to have been born somewhere on the Wild Coast and he's definitely kin to Mordenkainen, who is a (secret) descendant of House Cranden. Zagig's mother was Eileme Yragerne, the Gynarch of Hardby. Upon the death of his mother he claimed the title of both Landgraf of Selintan and Despot of Hardby. As the son of an Yragerne he would have been a descendant of Ganz Nial, but I'm not sure what happened to the dynasty of Ponjes the Bull. Perhaps they died out, or perhaps Zagig was a scion of that dynasty as well - though if so, it's curious that Zagig went by the name of his mother's house rather than his father's even after renouncing his mother's title. It seems more likely that Zagig was of dubious paternity, though both of Zagig's parents were supposedly buried in the dungeons beneath Castle Greyhawk (Zagig's Crypt, Z600). He might have simply bought the title of Landgraf from its former holders. Slavers says Zagig "was born to a lesser member of the Gynarchy and a descendant of Lord Ganz of Greyhawk," though as Zagig's mother would have been a descendant of Lord Ganz it isn't clear if these were two different people. Zagig relinquished his title of Despot of Hardby in 351 CY, allowing Annarra Havelos to become Despotrix in his place. He abandoned the mortal world in 421 CY, leaving behind no official heirs (he has one adopted son, Yrag, but this was apparently a secret and Yrag has not sought to claim his adopted father's title - Yrag has a noble title of his own, earned along with Robilar's title for the capture of Bluto Sans Pite). The title of Landgraf of Selintan was abolished at that point. Since then, Greyhawk has been exclusively in the hands of the Directing Oligarchy.

I don't know if there's anything official about the origins of Castle Mastryne. According to From the Ashes, Lord Mastryne claims the lands within 15 miles east of the Jewel River. Oerth Journal #11 presents a fan take on the history of Castle Mastryne, though. According to it, the castle was built almost 100 years ago by an elf from Celene named Elin Baridel and originally called Castle Baridel. Baridel died without heirs in 580 CY and his castle was inherited by his lieutenant, Brandon Stark. In 586 CY an adventurer named Cedric Mastryne, who had apparently been squatting in the castle without permission, thwarted an assault by Turrosh Mak. Stark got himself named an independent baron by Nerof Gasgal, but Mastryne seized the castle for himself. Stark, whose independence meant that Greyhawk felt no need to defend him, now roams the wood nearby as a bandit lord.

In a story by Gary Gygax and K.R. Bourgoine in Dragon #344, "The Return of Gord," Gord the Rogue often goes under the alias of "Sir Margus of the noble Velunese House of Leewes." Is the House of Leewes a real thing or did Gord invent it? The other relevant thing in that story is Lord Fradel, a member of the Directing Oligarchy. Lord Fradel had a son, Arnolf, who was "known to cheat at dice." Fradel has a palace somewhere in Greyhawk's High Quarter.

Anyway, some nobles of Greyhawk include:
Nerof Gasgal (surely)
Lord Fradel
Yrag
Robilar (stripped after his betrayal)
Ayelerach (a baron)
Lord Mastryne (self-proclaimed baron)
Here's a list of current Directing Oligarchs. Most of them have surnames.
Huon (Baron Redfort), Delkart (Count Easmoor), Edward (Lord Yggs), and Edmund (Marquis Talworth) (from Gary Gygax's Yggsburgh, these were nobles with lands adjacent to Yggsburgh 300 years ago)
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Robbastard
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rip, I'm pretty sure Nerof Gasgal is from commoner stock, as tAB mentions that he "will never gain acceptance among the nobility of the city because of his lowly birth."

Other nobles of Greyhawk include the Silverfoxes, Wainwrights, Wheatsmills, Lockswells, Blackfairs, and Henways.

There's also Bluto Sans Pite of Greyhawk, & Count Reichart Petrides of Urnst.
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rasgon
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robbastard wrote:
Rip, I'm pretty sure Nerof Gasgal is from commoner stock,


Yeah, you're right. I had assumed that if Lord Yrag (and Robilar) could be granted nobility by the Directing Oligarchy, then Nerof Gasgal could too. He probably could be, but this has seemingly not happened. "He wants to be a member of the aristocracy but is snubbed for his vulgar birth, accent, and sources of wealth." [TAB, 63]

Greyhawk does distinguish between "old nobles" and "new nobles." The "old nobles" trace their lineage to appointments from the Overking: they include the Gynarch of Hardby (maybe all of the noble Hardby families?), the Wainwrights (who have an estate outside the city's east wall), and the Wheatsmills of the High Quarter (perhaps Lord Fradel is a Wheatsmill). "New nobles" were mostly granted nobility by Zagig, though a few (mostly nobles from other lands) were given noble status by the Directing Oligarchy. They include the Lockswells of the Gnarley Forest, the Blackfairs of the Ery River, Lord Yrag, Otto, Tenser (though perhaps not officially, nobody's going to question Tenser's status to his face), and the Silverfoxes and Henways of the High Quarter (Lord Fradel could be one of these, too).

Okay, interesting. That gives us an idea of where some of the various noble fiefs are located, too.

Perhaps Ayelerach is a Blackfriar, since some sources (MMII) call him a cleric. I'm not sure if Lockswell is a perfectly ironic name for someone who helped accidentally free Fraz-Urb'luu or a terrible one.

Most of the Oligarchs aren't nobles. "The Directors are seen as upper class, certainly, but not on the level of the old nobility and barely on a level with the new. Nerof Gasgal is on equal footing with the Magister of Dyvers."
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MToscan
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ouch I am still elaborating all this stuff. There's a lot to do.
Expecially since Houses and Families tend to blend here and there. I suppose numbering after the name are exclusive of Royal Houses (hence Tavish I or Trevlyan III even if he is no King). Which brings me to King Kimbertos I Lizhal of the Skottis (hhhm?).
As for the barbarians, what about
Royal House Hartensen vassal of House Schnai
Royal House Bearhear vassal of House Cruskii
* King Lolgoff Bearhear
Royal House Rälffson vassal of House Frutzii
* King Hundgred Rälffson

or maybe Hartensen, Bearhear, Rälffson are just Families? Obviously sen and son could just stand as "son of", that could bring us to
King Hundgred Frutzii Son of Rälf or King Hundgred Rälffson of the Frutzii

Bastards in this are are quite objously "Snow". Or could be nice if we called them "Snow" "Frost" and "Ice" therefore making the term Ice Barbarians for instance, just an Oeridian joke about those lands being ruled by barbarians (using the greek meaning of the term) that occupy the land where "ice bastards" are born.
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smillan_31
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The barbarians seem to use some variation of the ancient Norse naming system, which is still used in Iceland by most people. Given name followed by name of father+suffix ending indicating sex of person; -sson for males, -sdottir for females. With the Barbarians it looks like they at least use -son or -sen, the latter possibly a dialectal variation used by the Schnai. Working with this I also assume that the current king of the Schnai, Ingemar Hartensen is the nephew or other close relation of the former king, Orvung, since he's not Ingemar Orvungsen. With Lolgoff, I'm assuming Bearhear is a byname or epithet, which was also common in Norse culture, with names like Erik Bloodaxe, Harald Bluetooth, or Sven Forkbeard. Maybe Lolgoff has the hearing of a bear, or 'hear' could be a Commonization of a word in the Cold Tongue. Here in Anglo-saxon meant 'army.' Maybe Lolgoff fights like an army of bears? If any of the Barbarians were to adopt Aerdian-style surnames I'd guess it would be the Fruztii, but I don't think they're there yet.

If you want to use an ASOIF naming system for noble bastards in Aeridy, what about using the heraldry of the respective provinces and kingdoms? You could even extend this to former GK provinces like Furyondy. Velunan bastards could be Moon, South Province bastards could be Boar, North Province Dragonsun. You might spice it up by using Latin words for those (or Italian or French, or another language you would relate Old Oeridian to).
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MToscan
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

smillan_31 wrote:
If you want to use an ASOIF naming system for noble bastards in Aeridy, what about using the heraldry of the respective provinces and kingdoms? You could even extend this to former GK provinces like Furyondy. Velunan bastards could be Moon, South Province bastards could be Boar, North Province Dragonsun. You might spice it up by using Latin words for those (or Italian or French, or another language you would relate Old Oeridian to).

Kudos for the barbarian stuff, I have something to think about.
Regardingh the idea above, it is BRILLIANT! Even though I would probably wrap up some countries together (es. all Keoland/Gran March/Geoff/Yeomanry etc.). I am undecided on the Bandit Kingdoms since I assume they are a lot of independent lordships with a common Oeridian past. I guess Shieldlanders, hordedlanders, bandits and ex-Ferrondian could share the same bastard naming system.
Now what about Iuz? Shall we keep the old Oeridian names since his was an oeridian independent lordship as well?
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smillan_31
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could say that Shield Lands, BK, and Iuz were all part of the Viceroyalty of Furyondy (At least I think they all were), so they could use the same name for bastards in them, although so was Veluna, and we talked about them using a different name. If you're making it a custom derived from the GK you could also say that people kept the custom but some started using a different name with independence. Shield Landers could use Axe, Iuzians could use Skull (I was working on an article about the heraldry of Iuz (the nation) and had one noble family that maintained power under Iuz's rule as having changed the roses on their shield to skulls). The BK would probably be a mix of things, different for each kingdom, given how chaotic they are -- Rook for Rookroost, Clover for Reyhu, Morningstar for Johrase, etc... Those are the easy ones. No one is quite sure about what the other shields represent.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slightly off-topic, but I'd been thinking about relating Aerdy royal houses to the Great Houses of ASoIaF, to better help my players relate to them. Here's what I've come up with so far. Feedback is welcome.

Code:
AERDY HOUSE      WESTEROS HOUSE
Cranden          Stark
Darmen           Lannister
Garasteth        Arryn
Naelax           Baratheon
Rax              Targaryen
Torquann         Greyjoy

Obviously, none of these is a perfect fit (though Darmen=Lannister was an easy choice). Anyone have better suggestions?
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rasgon
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MToscan wrote:
Now what about Iuz? Shall we keep the old Oeridian names since his was an oeridian independent lordship as well?


I think that depends on two things:

1. Does Iuz still bother with the charade that he's the descendant of an Oeridian bandit-lord, or is he open about the fact that he is, by most definitions of the word, a bastard himself? I'm not sure he would dare call himself Graz'zt's heir because demon lords don't have heirs - Graz'zt intends to live forever, and if one of his by-blows declared his intention to succeed him that would be tantamount to a declaration of war. Yet does anyone still even pretend to believe that Iuz is the rightful son of Prince Hoegbotton of the Howling Hills (or whoever; I don't think the petty lord who supposedly sired Iuz is named in canon)?

2. Are any descendants of the old Oeridian lords left in Iuz? Or all the local lords all replaced? Looking through Iuz the Evil and the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer I don't see any local rulers who are likely to be of Oeridian noble descent.

It could well be that none of the local rulers of Iuz's empire have reigned for long enough for questions of succession or paternity to be an issue among them. Most of his minions seem to have been installed by Iuz himself based on their loyalty, power, and wickedness. Most of them are members of his Boneheart or priesthood. Some of the local rulers in Iuz's empire are orcs or orogs. I wouldn't call Iuz's kingdom a meritocracy exactly, but it doesn't seem to be ruled along traditional feudal lines. It seems very unlikely that any descendant of Halga or Jumper will inherit their positions; as soon as any of Iuz's servants grow old or weak some ambitious underling will murder them, or Iuz himself will devour them, and that will be that.
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rasgon
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DMPrata wrote:
Slightly off-topic, but I'd been thinking about relating Aerdy royal houses to the Great Houses of ASoIaF, to better help my players relate to them. Here's what I've come up with so far. Feedback is welcome.

Code:
AERDY HOUSE      WESTEROS HOUSE
Cranden          Stark
Darmen           Lannister
Garasteth        Arryn
Naelax           Baratheon
Rax              Targaryen
Torquann         Greyjoy

Obviously, none of these is a perfect fit (though Darmen=Lannister was an easy choice). Anyone have better suggestions?


Those sound like pretty good choices. Obviously there's nothing northernly about Cranden, but to some degree they're the "honorable" house. The Darmens are rich and always pay their debts. The Garasteths are isolationist and traditional. The Naelaxes recently ascended to the throne and their king is evil and despotic. The Raxes are extinct, as far as anyone knows, and their last kings were mad. The Torquanns are gray and severe and live on the coast.
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MToscan
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lots of stuff to crunch eheh.
BTW, since we're at it, the tricky part is binding families and houses to a specific territory. What are the domains (and headquarters) of these major houses?
I also think basically every high religious figure is member of some noble house (like it was common in the middle ages). Spidasa of Medegia could be born Spidasa Naelax of maybe we have been Kahabros Naelax and become Spidasa I when he got the charge.
I also assumed Hazen was from a noble family as well.
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rasgon
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MToscan wrote:
What are the domains (and headquarters) of these major houses?


The Garasteths are based in Rel Astra. When they ruled the Kingdom of Aerdy, Rel Astra was its capital.

The Darmens are based in Kalstrand.

The Naelaxes historically ruled North Province and continue to rule North Kingdom. Eastfair is their traditional place of power, but after the extermination of the House of Rax they ruled Rauxes as well.

The House of Cranden was probably originally (and continues to be) associated with Rel Deven. Almor is named after a Cranden prince, and Almor has traditionally been under their control.

The House of Nyrond ruled the ancient Oeridian kingdom of Nehron. When the Great Kingdom conquered it, members of the House of Rax were given control of the newly created province of Nyrond; they joined with House Nyrond and became the House of Rax-Nyrond, accepting Nyrond as the junior branch of their house. When Nyrond seceded from the Great Kingdom, its rulers went back to calling themselves House Nyrond. House Rax ultimately went more or less extinct, but their junior branch still survives. Its capital is, of course, Rel Mord.

Torquann's lands were probably originally based around Mentrey. They dominate trade and commerce on the eastern coast, but are opposed by the Garasteths. They currently control Atirr. Rinloru, Bilebrine, and the southeast.

House Atirr originally ruled Atirr, but they're thought to be extinct now.

It's probable that the rulers of Ferrond Province once belonged to one of these houses. My guess is that it was the Darmens or the Crandens. But maybe not.
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MToscan
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just read/realized that Against The Gients is set in Sterich and not Geoff, UGH! So any notes you might want to share on noble families of Sterich? Especially noble families of Sterich "at the time ATG" is set? BTW who was the king of Keoland at the time?
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rasgon
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MToscan wrote:
I just read/realized that Against The Gients is set in Sterich and not Geoff, UGH! So any notes you might want to share on noble families of Sterich? Especially noble families of Sterich "at the time ATG" is set? BTW who was the king of Keoland at the time?


Kimbertos Skotti was Keoland's king in 576 CY. Queen of the Spiders mentions that the Viscount of Javan is subordinate to the Earl of Sterich. The Viscount isn't named because his son is supposed to be one of the PCs' henchmen. The supermodule says that the Viscount of Javan and his two sons have "the royal blood of Keoland in his veins," so they're probably related to Kimbertos Skotti (and House Lizhal), unless this refers to a different royal house.

The Earl of Sterich at the time was Querchard. His wife, Resbin Dren Emondav, spends little time in Sterich, living in her distant homeland for most of the year. Dungeon #117 says that Sterich is "the hereditary seat of the House of Qualtaine, modest rulers largely content to enjoy the wealth of vast mining operations." The nobles of the House of Qualtaine are descended from Sterich's first earl, Qualtaine of Geoff. Sterich has a reputation for "low nobility" because Qualtaine and his successors avidly granted titles and land to anyone who donated enough money to the earldom's coffers.

In Dungeon #117, Count Tavisham Barclay is a distant relative of the House of Rhola and heir to one of the noble estates of Sterich (and a werewolf). At the time of the GDQ series, he and his family are living in Keoland (and he is perhaps not yet a werewolf). Still, the Barclay family definitely has noble claims in Sterich.

One of the first to be granted nobility by the Earl of Sterich were the House of Oester (mentioned in Dungeon #118), distant relatives of the House of Qualtaine. However, their name became synonymous with ill-luck when their manor fell into a sinkhole 350 years ago. They may have all died.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here it is

Ruling House: House Qualtaine, originates from the (should be of some Geoff noble house to tie in blood relations) Suel warlord Qualtaine of Geoff which is therefore patriarch of the Ruling House.
Lord Querchard Qualtaine head of Hosue Qualtaine based in Istivin, married with Lady Resbin Dren Emondav, of House Dren Emoldav.

Minor Houses (aka Families) are
* House Dren Emondav, loyal to House (Qualtaine?)
* House Javan, ruled by Lord Josef Javan, loyal to House Lizhal. Protectors of the East
* House Barclay, ruled by Lord Tavisham Barclay, loyal to House Rhola of Keoland.
* House Oester, scattered in various secondary manors in Sterich, loyal to House Qualtaine.
* House Jarmaath, formal protectors of the West and owners of Castle Mittleberg, loyal to House Qualtaine.
* House Kaal loyal to House Jarmaath (formally)
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rasgon
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MToscan wrote:
* House Dren Emondav, loyal to House (Qualtaine?)


Note that this is just one person, and she isn't native to Sterich. It's speculated that she might be from Zahind.

Quote:
* House Barclay, ruled by Lord Tavisham Barclay, loyal to House Rhola of Keoland.


Tavisham Barclay doesn't live in Sterich at the time of the GDQ series (and he may be very young); the house would be headed by some relative of his who presumably dies in the interim.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rasgon wrote:
Queen of the Spiders mentions that the Viscount of Javan is subordinate to the Earl of Sterich.


I would be interested in knowing where this Viscountcy of "Javan" is? Shocked

The only "Javan" I've ever "seen" is Javan Ferry which is part of the County of Flen and very near -- perhaps some 15 miles -- to the City of Flen, the "County Seat." (Paizo Map) Confused

I'm doing a write-up on Javan Ferry at this time.
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rasgon
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mystic-Scholar wrote:
I would be interested in knowing where this Viscountcy of "Javan" is?


In Sterich, probably adjacent to the Javan River.
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