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    Canonfire :: View topic - 2e stats for Demogorgon
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    2e stats for Demogorgon
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    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 20, 2004
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    From: London, England

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    Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:46 am  
    2e stats for Demogorgon

    Hey,

    Just wondering if there are any official 2nd Edition stats for Demogorgon? Or any other Abyssal Lords?

    Looking at the official stats for Lolth and Zuggtmoy there is a HUGE difference in HD. So wondering what you guys think would be a reasonable HD for the Prince of Demons?
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
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    From: SW WA state (Highvale)

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    Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:59 am  

    Monster Mythology has stats for Demogorgon, and many other demon lords who are worshipped (except Grazzt and Orcus).

    If you don't own or have access to a copy, and need some information, let me know.

    -Lanthorn
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:50 am  

    Thanks Lanthorn. The stats in Monster Mythology are for an avatar of Demogorgon. I was looking for the stats for the main dude himself as the PCs will be having a confrontation with him in his home plane of Gaping Maw.
    GreySage

    Joined: Jul 26, 2010
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    From: LG Dyvers

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    Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:06 am  

    The Savage Tide is my favorite AP. Happy

    Good luck running it. It can be a bit of work for a DM what with all the NPC stats to keep track of in a battle.

    SirXaris
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    Adept Greytalker

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    Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:27 am  

    I've modified it heavilly to fit the PCs and their own stories but it's a fun AP! The part are currently in Divided's Ire.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:31 am  

    Maybe this would be better in its own topic but looking for these stats has led me on to the stats of the deities in general. The World of Greyhawk boxed set has stats for a number of the deities themselves, but when compared to later books like Forgotten Realm's Faths & Avatars they don't quite tally up in power and ability although in the earlier material I'm not sure avatars were really a 'thing' like they became in later 2e products.

    Has anyone put any thought to this before?
    CF Admin

    Joined: Jun 29, 2001
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    Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:56 am  

    Wolfling wrote:
    Thanks Lanthorn. The stats in Monster Mythology are for an avatar of Demogorgon. I was looking for the stats for the main dude himself as the PCs will be having a confrontation with him in his home plane of Gaping Maw.


    I thought that I had my version of Demogorgon up on CF! as part of my Demonomicon series, but apparently I don't. Will have to see about fixing that! :)

    I do have a little info on the Prince of Demons in my demonic genealogy article @ http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=203 but that's just an appetizer (and my version will require conversion, such as it is, to 2e).

    Allan.
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    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 11, 2009
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    Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:32 am  
    Re: 2e stats for Demogorgon

    Wolfling wrote:
    Hey,

    Just wondering if there are any official 2nd Edition stats for Demogorgon? Or any other Abyssal Lords?

    Looking at the official stats for Lolth and Zuggtmoy there is a HUGE difference in HD. So wondering what you guys think would be a reasonable HD for the Prince of Demons?


    Great topic Wolfling! As an avid 2nd Edition player, I've been wanting comparable stats for Demon Princes, Arch Devils, etc. that bring them up from 1st ed stats or answer questions about them that those early sources don't answer. I also struggle with converting some of the great 3rd edition and beyond monsters, Demon Princes, etc. back to 2nd ed. for me to use. The Age of Worms adventure path for example has some amazing monsters, but their abilities and powers are very hard to convert backwards.
    CF Admin

    Joined: Jun 29, 2001
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    Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:26 am  
    Re: 2e stats for Demogorgon

    xo42 wrote:
    I also struggle with converting some of the great 3rd edition and beyond monsters, Demon Princes, etc. back to 2nd ed. for me to use. The Age of Worms adventure path for example has some amazing monsters, but their abilities and powers are very hard to convert backwards.


    FWIW I found it harder going the other way, to add in the required feats, skills, etc. Curious to hear about what you found more challenging going the other direction!

    Allan.
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sun Sep 22, 2019 5:40 pm  
    Re: 2e stats for Demogorgon

    grodog wrote:
    xo42 wrote:
    I also struggle with converting some of the great 3rd edition and beyond monsters, Demon Princes, etc. back to 2nd ed. for me to use. The Age of Worms adventure path for example has some amazing monsters, but their abilities and powers are very hard to convert backwards.


    FWIW I found it harder going the other way, to add in the required feats, skills, etc. Curious to hear about what you found more challenging going the other direction!

    Allan.


    Yes, 3rd ed. has so many changes and feats, etc. that converting older stats to 3rd would definitely be hard. For me, the hard part about converting later editions back to 2nd ed. was the drastic increases to AC, hit points/HD, and especially powers. For instance Demon Princes were already very powerful, but in the extensive write ups for them in 3rd ed. and beyond their powers are magnified by several degrees. In Age of Worms, the various minions of Kyuss are awesome enemies, but their powers are definitely not easy to exactly mirror with 2d ed. monsters. Maybe my challenge with it is because I've never played any edition beyond 2nd. I enjoy reading and using the later edition modules though.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 20, 2004
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    Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:21 am  

    Converting from one edition to another can be tricky but I do tend to find it easier converting back from 3rd to 2nd. xo42, I've done a few conversions from the Savage Tide AP, I'm happy to share these with you if you want?

    In the 1st edition Monster Manual I found stats for Demogorgon, Juiblex, Orcus and Yeenoghu but I also noticed that the regular demons had a number f changes between 1st and 2nd edition. For example a 1st edition balor only has an AC-2! I think that these 1st edition demon princes.

    Juiblex only has 88 hit points which for a high level group is not that great a challenge. 3rd edition definitly ramps up the power levels. One thing I do is to allow such creatures to use any at will ability in addition to their regular attacks. When there is one poor Juiblex fighting 7 PCs it needs a bit of help I think.

    The 1st edition information is quite interesting actually. Type IV-VI demons and above imply that nalfeshnee, mariliths and balors are just one form of these demons "Type IV (Nalfeshnee, etc.)" and only these types of demons are named but this is something for the 1st edition thread!
    CF Admin

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    Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:35 am  

    Wolfling wrote:
    Converting from one edition to another can be tricky but I do tend to find it easier converting back from 3rd to 2nd. xo42, I've done a few conversions from the Savage Tide AP, I'm happy to share these with you if you want?


    I'm sure we'd all love to see those, Wolfling =)

    Wolfling wrote:
    Juiblex only has 88 hit points which for a high level group is not that great a challenge. 3rd edition definitly ramps up the power levels. One thing I do is to allow such creatures to use any at will ability in addition to their regular attacks. When there is one poor Juiblex fighting 7 PCs it needs a bit of help I think.


    Agreed, that's how I treat all at-will abilities, too. We had some good discussion of this recently over on Anthony Huso's 1e forum/blog @ https://www.thebluebard.com/post/high-level-play-part-2-mechanics

    Wolfling wrote:
    Type IV-VI demons and above imply that nalfeshnee, mariliths and balors are just one form of these demons "Type IV (Nalfeshnee, etc.)" and only these types of demons are named but this is something for the 1st edition thread!


    My reading on that, based on the names added to the list in the 1e DMG Appendix E, are that Nalfeshnee, etc. are simply the commonly-known names of the same types of demon vs. different names for different demonic forms (which is a rather interesting idea, and worth exploring further!):

    - Type IV names: Bilwhr, Johud, Nalfeshnee
    - Type V names: Aishapra, Kevokulli, Marilith, Rehnaremme
    - Type VI names: Alzoll, Balor, Errtu, Ndulu, Ter-soth, Wendonai

    Allan.
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:55 am  

    Wolfling wrote:
    Thanks Lanthorn. The stats in Monster Mythology are for an avatar of Demogorgon. I was looking for the stats for the main dude himself as the PCs will be having a confrontation with him in his home plane of Gaping Maw.


    This is because he is a full-fledged deity in 2e, not "just" an Abyssal Lord like Graz'zt. Confronting him on his home plane is suicidal since he cannot be killed by mortals; only another god can kill him. Deities in 2e are not intended to be direct opponents of the PCs.

    If you want to disregard that, you can use the avatar stats in Monster Mythology, or you can adapt the stats for Graz'zt and Pazrael in Planes of Chaos. I also wrote up Demogorgon using the template of Faiths & Avatars, including a more powerful avatar form if you want to see if that works for you:
    http://blog.aulddragon.com/2019/04/demogorgon-the-prince-of-demons/

    Jeff
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    Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:54 am  

    Wolfling wrote:
    Converting from one edition to another can be tricky but I do tend to find it easier converting back from 3rd to 2nd. xo42, I've done a few conversions from the Savage Tide AP, I'm happy to share these with you if you want?


    Yes, please share your conversions! I would definitely love to see those and I think they'll help me with other 3d to 2d conversions as well.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:57 am  

    AuldDragon wrote:


    If you want to disregard that, you can use the avatar stats in Monster Mythology, or you can adapt the stats for Graz'zt and Pazrael in Planes of Chaos. I also wrote up Demogorgon using the template of Faiths & Avatars, including a more powerful avatar form if you want to see if that works for you:
    http://blog.aulddragon.com/2019/04/demogorgon-the-prince-of-demons/

    Jeff


    Thanks AuldDragon! This is awesome and I will definitely use it.
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