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    Canonfire :: View topic - Keolandish Dating and Lingua Franca
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    Keolandish Dating and Lingua Franca
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    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 21, 2003
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    Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:22 am  
    Keolandish Dating and Lingua Franca

    So, I was wondering why Keolandish would use a dating system based on Aerdy’s declaration of universal peace half a continent away? Keolandish is older and uconquered for a thousand years; wouldn’t they use the founding of their kingdom as year 1 or continue with the old Suel dating system?

    Similarly, why would Common (modern Oeridian) be the lingua franca of the Sheldomar Valley when they have their own language, Keolandish?

    I get why the rest of the Flanaess would use Common Year dating and the Common tongue of Aerdy as well as why Common is the gaming equivalent to the Universal Translator just to get the game going.

    Kwint
    GreySage

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    Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:29 am  
    Re: Keolandish Dating and Lingua Franca

    kwint wrote:
    So, I was wondering why Keolandish would use a dating system based on Aerdy’s declaration of universal peace half a continent away? Keolandish is older and uconquered for a thousand years; wouldn’t they use the founding of their kingdom as year 1 or continue with the old Suel dating system?


    I assume they use the Suel system, yes. I don't think there's any reason to think they use the Common Year in their own records.

    Quote:
    Similarly, why would Common (modern Oeridian) be the lingua franca of the Sheldomar Valley when they have their own language, Keolandish?


    The Great Kingdom was the larger empire and Common includes elements of Baklunish, making it more useful across the Flanaess. Keolanders who want to communicate with those outside the Sheldomar default to Common.

    But within the Sheldomar Valley, Keolandish is more useful. I wouldn't assume that a merchant from Keoland would necessarily use Common to speak to someone in Sterich or the County of Ulek.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:32 am  
    Re: Keolandish Dating and Lingua Franca

    kwint wrote:
    ...wouldn’t they use the founding of their kingdom as year 1 or continue with the old Suel dating system?


    Maybe the Suel and Oeridian Houses that formed Keoland spent a few centuries arguing over whether to use Oeridian Record (OR) or Suel Dating (SD) and in the end decided to use CY because it represented an equitable halfway house, combined with Aerdy exerting such a political, economic and military power.

    Is there a canon explanation for Keoland's dating system anywhere?
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:01 am  

    Why not add another calendar? Keoland may use regnal years, or date from the establishment of the realm.
    GreySage

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    Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:19 am  

    The only drawback to creating a Keoland-specific calendar is it's slightly more of a hassle in play to have yet another calendar to convert.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:02 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    The only drawback to creating a Keoland-specific calendar is it's slightly more of a hassle in play to have yet another calendar to convert.


    I imagine it would be used mainly at court and in official histories, with the CY used in ordinary business.
    CF Admin

    Joined: Jul 28, 2001
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    Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:36 pm  

    kwint's question reminded me of this quote, "After much debate, Keoland changed its own coinage system to match the Great Kingdom's in 331 CY[.]" LGG 19

    Regarding Kalindren's question, I don't recall any "canon explanation for Keoland's dating system[,]" but Gary Holian has commented on how sparsely Gygax and later authors treated Keoland. Also, the second of Samwise's three-part Grand Sheldomar Expanded Timeline and Revision introduced an entry for the years since the founding of the kingdom of Keoland (in CY -342 / OR 303). According to the third part, CY 576 equals Keoland Calendar (Dating / Record / Reckoning?) 918, CY 585 equals K? 927, and CY 591 equals K? 933.

    Regarding languages, IMC (presently leaving Saltmarsh for Monmurg), I've followed the LGG and LGJ 1.1. Thus, the majority of commonfolk prefer Keolandish, but most townsfolk, particularly in port cities and towns, speak Common. (Scholars and bureaucrats, however, typically prefer Ancient Suloise for their records—at least in Niole Dra, Gradsul, Monmurg, and Port Toli.)

    Also, we've had some insightful arguments over what "should" be the predominant base language for Keolandish. Among others, iirc, Samwise and Woesinger chopped it up when we were discussing the timelines. See Sheldomar Timeline (Nov. 2004).

    Finally, I recently read the Wikipedia article on Vulgar Latin and found it insightful vis-à-vis the development of the Common-vocca. In short, the similarity between the various Oeridian tribal languages / dialects provided the basis for the eventual proliferation of the Common-vocca across the Flanaess and into the Sheldomar Valley. Also, regarding Keolandish, the relatively larger number of Keogh peoples (compared to the Neheli, Rholan, and other Suel Houses) at the time of the kingdom's founding and in its first centuries explains why Keolandish is a "widespread dialect of Old High Oeridian . . . [with] local admixtures." LGG at 12.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:15 am  

    Thanks all...

    I think I’ll go with Keolandish as the common tongue, while Common is known by those in the northern and southern borders areas of the Sheldomar and give the pre 3.0 short shifted Keoland it’s own Dating system settling on FLT (Foundation of the Lion Throne)...

    Also, thanks to Gary Holian and Samwise for their efforts to expand this area...

    Kwint
    Sage of Canonfire

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    Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:48 am  

    LOL,

    Hmmm, thought this thread was about looking for love in Keoland.

    Someone create a Match.com or E-Harmony for lonely Neheli!

    Just make sure they don't get matched with their sisters...
    Sage of Canonfire

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    Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:31 am  

    On a serious note,

    The Keoish have never been subjects of the Great Kingdom, nor overlapped them very much, save for a brief stint prior to and during the Short War in Veluna.

    We should also recall that the 1983 guide is written from the point of view of Oeridians, particularly those of the central Flanaess who bring the GK's prejudices to the table. (One of the conceits that let me explain why so much Sheldomar Valley lore was left out.)

    So I agree with the idea that kwint brought up that the Common Tongue and the Common Year should not be the defaults. They would either use the SD or a timeline of their own reckoning (not acknowledged by the author of the Guide to the World of Greyhawk).

    Perhaps TL (Time of the Lion) or KA (Age of Keoland) dating from the signing of the Founding Charter between the Suel and Oeridian Keogh. TL/AK 1 = -342 CY

    As for the Common Tongue, I see that penetrating further than perhaps the calendar. The people of Gradsul and other large cities who trade outside of Keoland probably speak the Common Tongue as a second language. But its possible the common folk, especially in the interior of the kingdom do not (a roleplaying opportunity for DMs). Places like Sterich and Yeomanry, might not speak much of the Common Tongue at all.

    There is no way they would adopt the coin of the Great Kingdom. Definitely don't agree with that from the LGG.

    -G
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:20 pm  

    Given that the Common Tongue is derived from Oeridian and Baklunish languages, it seems to me that it would most likely have sprung up in a place like Ket, which puts its initial region of use closer to Keoland than to Aerdy.
    All the areas where Oerdiian-speakers dealt with Baklunish speakers.
    And given that Oeridians were dealing with the Baklunish before the Twin Cataclysms, Common or its antecedents as some sort of patois or creole may be pretty old.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:02 pm  

    FormerlyKnownasNorker wrote:

    All the areas where Oerdiian-speakers dealt with Baklunish speakers.
    And given that Oeridians were dealing with the Baklunish before the Twin Cataclysms, Common or its antecedents as some sort of patois or creole may be pretty old.


    Yeah, my assumption is that the oldest forms of Common developed while the Oeridians were living in Ull, and were then brought by the Aerdi to the Great Kingdom.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 11, 2009
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    Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:34 pm  

    For languages, I dispensed with Common existing at all. No Esperanto in my Flanaess! You want to speak with that foreigner? Time to roll the dice! This forces characters to invest in language skills as well as more traditional skills, or hire interpreters. As far as Keoish, I consider it in the Oeridian Family, but a distant cousin of Old Oeridian, which is still in use in the central and eastern Flanaess. This means that it is hard, but not impossible for the speakers to understand each other, "roll for miscommunication!"

    As far as money, I retained the Aerdy base ten coinage system, but gave the Sheldomar a system based on 5s and 12s. I really wanted to make the Sheldomar Valley at least feel like a different place, not just more of the same.. Little changes I think go a long way and work for money changers!
    GreySage

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    Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:35 pm  

    Here's an earlier thread on the development of Keolandish and Common that I think is worth reading.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:53 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    Here's an earlier thread on the development of Keolandish and Common that I think is worth reading.

    Ah, I see that I was a thread contributor/commenter.

    Retread!
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