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    Canonfire :: View topic - Location of Gaxxmoor in Greyhawk
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    Location of Gaxxmoor in Greyhawk
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    From: Delanson

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    Tue Mar 29, 2022 4:17 pm  
    Location of Gaxxmoor in Greyhawk

    Here is a quote from Gary Gygax on the location of Gaxmoor in the Flanaess:

    "I believe that the best place for the area to be is somewhere on the borderlands of the Great Kingdom, exact location up to the DM, but I should think east and south somewhere."

    That is from this thread:
    http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=23153&start=90


    Given that, where would you put Gaxxmoor? Perhaps somewhere in the Torrich/Nulbish area? Any ideas for a good fit?
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Mar 30, 2022 7:04 am  

    This actually had a semi-official placement (either by Luke Gygax or Gary) in Bissel. I'm trying to recall where this was stated, but when the first edition came out, Gygax Sr. wrote a little introductory adventure for it called "Search for a Lost City" or somesuch. There was online discussion where to place Gaxmoor, and one of the Gygaxes suggested Bissel.
    GreySage

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    Wed Mar 30, 2022 6:26 pm  

    There's a thread here about it, with a long post by grodog:

    Quote:
    The Lost City of Gaxmoor will soon be released as a generic D20 product
    through Sovereign Stone Press. Here is the background as originally written
    for The Greyhawk campaign.
    THE LOST CITY OF GAXMOOR
    A D20 Campaign Setting
    Requires the Dungeons & Dragons Core Handbooks to Use
    Created by Ernie Gygax & Luke Gygax with David Moore

    INTRODUCTION

    The sun slowly sinks into the West over the desolation of a once grand
    Empire. It's fading brilliance outlines the ancient ruins of what was once a
    thriving metropolis. Now long since fallen to the ravages of time and beast,
    a place to rest and resupply before journeying into the wild lands of
    the barbaric frontier from the relative safety of the Oeridian Empire. This
    is the Lost City of Gaxmoor.

    Once, as the empire expanded, many of these walled cities dotted her
    frontier and the wealth of the World flowed into her coffers. Eventually,
    the alliances of her many enemies, and dissension of her conquered subjects
    weakened the once mighty empire, and a final conflict with the Soluise
    peoples to the south, led to the destruction of both Empires. Barbarism
    spread and as smaller villages were created from the remnants of the once
    mighty structures, most of these old border cities were quarried for the very
    stones from which they were put together. The lack of any safe communication
    with the West spelled the doom for the remaining border outposts of the
    vanquished Empires.

    The City of Gaxmoor was a haven for travelers crossing from the Empire as
    they entered into the wilds. The city was the home base of the followers of
    the Deity of Fharlangn and received many of the Deities special blessings.
    Not known as a god who worried or greatly cared about large standing
    structures or huge temples dedicated to his worship, this Deity loved the
    city for its hospitality and games that were offered to weary travelers,
    before they continued on there way in search of exotic peoples and treasures.
    As fire, sword and ultimately magic overtook the rest of the Empire the
    mighty patron decided that his city must be saved. He accomplished this by
    pulling Gaxmoor out of its position in the realm and placing it into a pocket
    universe where time ran much slower than on its home plane. Until such a
    time as his Priests would feel it safe to recall Gaxmoor to this realm. The
    powers of Chaos though took a stronger hold on the World than the traveling
    lord expected and over the centuries the methods of recalling the city fell
    into the hands of the followers of a selfish Evil Deity (Vecna), whose
    hirelings brought the city back for their own foul purposes. When this was
    accomplished the surprise was complete to all the parties, as the hordes of
    minions and assorted villainous mercenaries of dread Lord fell upon the city
    only to find that it was already in disrepair and only sparsely occupied as
    its citizens were falling into barbarism. Now the city secrets are in the
    hands of diabolical beings and the assorted vermin they brought with them.
    Finding no common foe to battle the assorted leaders own selfish desires and
    the splits within the mercenary groups caused the army to feud amongst
    themselves. Even so the bands of humanoids and evil creatures that now
    plague the area are causing great harm to already ravaged Bissel and the
    Margrave has put out a general call for help. With all the pressures
    crunching the once proud nation mostly due to its recent invasion by the
    forces of Ket, the pleas for assistance must now be taken up by brave and
    bold adventures of all classes. This has become necessary due to the
    decimated Border Companies and the state of loss amongst the troops
    throughout the country. Much treasure lies hidden within the ruined city and
    lost knowledge of Fharlanghn may be able to help offset some of the set backs
    to Bissel and her sovereigns the Gran March and the Knights of Veluna.

    The efforts will be long and intense and much thought must go into the
    actual search and destroy missions if success is to be obtained. Those who
    have proceeded you with the organized might of the sword and army efficiency
    have failed to return! Caution and hit and run tactics may win were bull
    ahead might has failed, or so the Margrave hopes. Are you ready for high
    adventure, lost magic treasures and devious tricks and traps?

    LOCATION: The City of Gaxmoor is located off the south branch of the Fals
    River some 60 miles east of the city of Thornward. This places it right
    between the main route of commerce with Veluna.
    GreySage

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    Thu Mar 31, 2022 7:47 pm  

    That's an interesting background, Rasgon, though I am uncertain if the reference I quote below should instead say 'East' (toward Rauxes) instead of "West".

    rasgon wrote:
    The lack of any safe communication
    with the West spelled the doom for the remaining border outposts of the
    vanquished Empires.


    SirXaris
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    GreySage

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    Thu Mar 31, 2022 8:44 pm  

    SirXaris wrote:
    That's an interesting background, Rasgon, though I am uncertain if the reference I quote below should instead say 'East' (toward Rauxes) instead of "West".

    rasgon wrote:
    The lack of any safe communication with the West spelled the doom for the remaining border outposts of the vanquished Empires.


    SirXaris


    "Empires" plural seems to be referring to the Baklunish and Suloise Empires. "A final conflict with the [Suloise] peoples to the south led to the destruction of both Empires."

    While there was some conflict between the rising Great Kingdom and the Suel kingdoms of Zelrad, Idee, Onnwal, the Lordship of the Isles, and Sunndi to the south, there wasn't a single Suel Empire to the south of the Great Kingdom (and I'm sure it's not referring to the Scarlet Brotherhood here, whose claim to imperial status came much later).

    Instead, while the first paragraph refers confusingly to the "Oeridian Empire" (of Aerdy, presumably), the unnamed empire referred to in the second paragraph is the Baklunish.

    I'll rewrite it a bit for clarity:

    Quote:
    The sun slowly sinks into the West over the desolation of [the] once grand [Baklunish] Empire. [Its] fading brilliance outlines the ancient ruins of what was once a thriving metropolis. Now long since fallen to the ravages of time and beast, a place to rest and resupply before journeying into the wild lands of the barbaric frontier from the relative safety of [Veluna]. This is the Lost City of Gaxmoor.

    Once, as the [Baklunish] empire expanded, many of these walled cities dotted her frontier and the wealth of the World flowed into her coffers. Eventually, the alliances of her many enemies, and dissension of her conquered subjects weakened the once mighty empire, and a final conflict with the [Suloise] peoples to the south, led to the destruction of both Empires. Barbarism spread and as smaller villages were created from the remnants of the once mighty structures, most of these old border cities were quarried for the very stones from which they were put together. The lack of any safe communication with the West spelled the doom for the remaining border outposts of the vanquished Empires [of the Baklunish and Suel].
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    From: Delanson

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    Sat Apr 02, 2022 4:19 am  

    Wow, fascinating and confusing.

    I think to make sense of all that a timeline is needed. When did Gaxxmoor disappear?

    Its also a little confusing where that background comes from - but it appears to have been what was prepared for the anticipated publication and not something by Scotty G. I can verify that because - having just checked - it is very nearly the same as the introduction to the Troll Lord's Gaxxmoor published in 2001 for 3rd edition. Some of the changes are interesting though.

    Also interesting that ScottyG mentioned a location in Sunndi.

    Its particularly odd that Gaxxmoor (before an Oeridian city) is switched to Baklunish. Hmmmm. That doesn't seem a good fit.
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    GreySage

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    Sat Apr 02, 2022 8:35 am  

    Thank you for that clarification, Rasgon. Somehow, I was under the impression that the parent empire of Gaxmoor was The Oeridian Kingdom of Aerdy. Your clarification makes much more sense. Happy

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    Sun Apr 03, 2022 7:59 am  

    Gaxmoor being dedicated to Fharlanghn strongly suggests to me that the intent was for it to be an Oeridian city, not Baklunish.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sun Apr 03, 2022 8:34 am  

    I agree with Rasgon almost always about everything, but in this case I think Gaxmoor works best as an early Oeridian settlement. There's no Baklunish flavor in the settlement as designed.
    GreySage

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    Sun Apr 03, 2022 12:23 pm  

    Well, keep in mind that in the Fals Gap it would have been right in the path of the Oeridian migrations, and very likely would have become a majority Oeridian city at that point, regardless of who founded it. If it was specifically "a haven for travelers crossing from the Empire" then that would, during the Migrations, be a haven for Oeridians specifically, which would explain the strength of Fharlanghn's following there.

    Just from the history above, it looks like it was founded prior to the Baklunish-Suloise Wars, so before -484 CY, probably specifically to defend the Fals Gap from the depredations of Vecna—which would explain his later interest in the city.

    By -457 CY, the city would be majority-Oeridian, as Oeridian migrations east were at their peak point but Vecna's empire was still a threat, and the Baklunish military was primarily occupied with the war to the south.

    The city would have been removed from the world following the chaos of the Invoked Devastation in -422 CY.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sat Apr 09, 2022 4:40 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    Well, keep in mind that in the Fals Gap it would have been right in the path of the Oeridian migrations, and very likely would have become a majority Oeridian city at that point, regardless of who founded it. If it was specifically "a haven for travelers crossing from the Empire" then that would, during the Migrations, be a haven for Oeridians specifically, which would explain the strength of Fharlanghn's following there.

    Just from the history above, it looks like it was founded prior to the Baklunish-Suloise Wars, so before -484 CY, probably specifically to defend the Fals Gap from the depredations of Vecna—which would explain his later interest in the city.

    By -457 CY, the city would be majority-Oeridian, as Oeridian migrations east were at their peak point but Vecna's empire was still a threat, and the Baklunish military was primarily occupied with the war to the south.

    The city would have been removed from the world following the chaos of the Invoked Devastation in -422 CY.


    Thanks for that Rasgon - I think that's a workable solution if you put some effort in to change some of the flavor of the city.

    For myself, I don't find the idea that Gaxmoor is a Baklunish city very satisfactory. Sure Ernie Gygax was probably only vaguely touching on Greyhawk canon when he first came up with the place, but it's clear the intent was that it be an Oeridian city and and outpost of an Oeridian Empire, and he used classical Roman analogs in setting up the city.

    To switch it to Baklunish, there should then be significant Baklunish influence in the city. Even if the majority of the population were Oeridian, the art, architecture, the cities gods and major players - the cities elites - would still be Baklunish. Similar, for example to Alexander the Great's cities being Greek in character, or the cities of the Spanish colonial empire being Spanish in character, despite in both cases of the majority population being something else.

    I don't really want to make those kind of changes to the text so I wondered if there was some Oeridian empire that might fit the bill and might also make sense of the Gary Gygax quote I started the op with. I ended up going down a new-to-me rabbit hole, but here is an idea that I *think* works.

    If anyone sees any significant problems with the following idea please chime in!

    Okay, below is an edited version of the original INTRODUCTION, but I have used some parts of the Castle and Crusade version too because they fit a little better. The C&C material is in italics. I've also added material and that is in all caps. Then follows a timeline I made up with some references included to show where certain ideas came from.

    The sun slowly sinks into the West over the ancient ruins of what was once a thriving metropolis of a once grand Empire. It was a great city, long since fallen to the ravages of time and beasts. She stood as a shining doorway to the east, allowing rest and restocking of provisions for those on the long trek into the wild lands of the barbaric frontier of the Oeridian Empire OF LUM THE MAD. This is the Lost City of Gaxmoor.

    Long ago there were many places like this; walled communities that existed all along the trade routes, built as havens while the empire expanded and the wealth of the world flowed into her coffers.

    The City of Gaxmoor was the home base of the followers of the Deity of Fharlangn and received many of the Deities special blessings. Not known as a god who worried or greatly cared about large standing structures or huge temples dedicated to his worship, this Deity loved the city for its hospitality and games that were offered to weary travelers, before they continued on their way in search of exotic peoples and treasures.

    Eventually, the alliances of her many enemies, and dissension of her conquered subjects weakened the once mighty empire, and a final conflict with the Southern Confederation LED BY THE Soluise peoples to the south, led to the destruction of both Empires. The lack of any safe communication with the West spelled the doom for the remaining border outposts of the vanquished Empire.

    As fire and sword overtook the rest of the Empire the mighty patron decided that his city must be saved. (Fharlangn) accomplished this by pulling Gaxmoor out of its position in the realm and placing it into a pocket universe where time ran much slower than on its home plane. Until such a time as his Priests would feel it safe to recall Gaxmoor to this realm. The powers of Chaos though took a stronger hold on the World than the traveling lord expected and over the centuries the methods of recalling the city fell into the hands of the followers of a selfish Evil Deity (Vecna), whose hirelings brought the city back for their own foul purposes. When this was accomplished the surprise was complete to all the parties, as the hordes of minions and assorted villainous mercenaries of dread Lord fell upon the city only to find that it was already in disrepair and only sparsely occupied as its citizens were falling into barbarism. Now the city secrets are in the hands of diabolical beings and the assorted vermin they brought with them.

    -395 CY: Baron Lum establishes the first Oeridian kingdom in the Flanaess, aided by his able general Leuk-O, and two very powerful items. (1)

    -385 CY: Including Gaxmoor, Lum establishes several outpost cities, along important trade routes, expanding his influence and power. (2)

    Lum's wars of conquest expand his empire east and west, stretching from the Flanmi river in the east, to the Franz river in the west. (3)

    - 360 CY: Lum once again turns his attention westward, sending his armies across the Franz river against the Suel lords of Urnst. (2)

    - 359 CY: The Suel of Idee ally with the Suel of Urnst and the Flan of Ehlissa forming The Southern Confederation, united against Lum. The war does not go in their favor and the Southern Confederation goes on the defensive. (4)

    - 353 CY: Leuk-o rebels against Lum. A hot civil war follows. (3)

    -350 CY: The Aerdi appear on the border of the Oeridian Kingdom. After extracting an exorbitant payment from the Southern Confederation they attack the Oeridian Kingdom. (3)

    Fahrlangn throws Gaxmoor into a pocket dimension.

    Leuk-o defeats Lum, but is himself defeated by the Aerdi only months later. (3)

    (1) Per Greyhawk - Master Timeline (From A Manifestation of Chaos Campaign, September 2012)
    https://metzger.obsidianportal.com/wikis/greyhawk-master-timeline

    (2) The event happened sometime so the date here is given as a reasonable guess by yours truly

    (3) Chapter 1, The Pre-Aerdy Period: Lum the Mad and Leuk-o and the Rise of the Kingdom of Thalland and the Medegian Bladelands, By Scott McMillan. posted January 02, 2021 https://rulersoftheaerdi.blogspot.com/2021/01/the-pre-aerdy-period-lum-mad-and-luek-o.html

    (4) Dates and confederation members supposed. "Southern Confederation" is the term used in the introduction to the Troll Lord's Gaxmoor published in 2001 for 3rd edition.
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    Last edited by Aldarron on Sat Apr 16, 2022 6:05 am; edited 3 times in total
    GreySage

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    Sat Apr 09, 2022 7:06 pm  

    Aldarron wrote:
    To switch it to Baklunish, there should then be significant Baklunish influence in the city. Even if the majority of the population were Oeridian, the art, architecture, the cities gods and major players - the cities elites - would still be Baklunish.


    I must not have been explaining what I was getting at very well.

    Imagine the Baklunish building a military fort on its border. The major players are military officers. There's not much art, no temples, and the architecture is limited to a fort.

    The war with the Suloise begins. Much of the military is recalled to the front lines. A skeletal garrison remains, perhaps.

    The Oeridians come in. Some of them might continue on, but many of them stay clustered around the most distant civilized fort, being unwilling to continue into the hostile Flanaess with Vecna's Occluded Empire still a menace. A tent city becomes a shanty town. More fortifications are added. Shrines to Fharlanghn are erected. The shanty town becomes a true city.

    The war grows worse. The remaining Baklunish soldiers depart, replaced by Oeridians. The original Baklunish fort becomes unrecognizable as Oeridian troops expand on it.

    Quote:
    it's clear the intent was that it be an Oeridian city and and outpost of an Oeridian Empire


    It's an empire to the west of a city in the Fals Gap, an empire that was destroyed during a conflict with an empire of the Suel. It's extremely clear to me what was meant, though I appreciate that the phrase "Oeridian empire" seems to have confused a lot of people, including possibly Gary Gygax himself.

    But that's not at all incompatible with it being an Oeridian city.

    Quote:
    I wondered if there was some Oeridian empire that might fit the bill and might also make sense of the Gary Gygax quote I started the op with. I ended up going down a new-to-me rabbit hole, but here is an idea that I *think* works.


    If you prefer to use Lum's empire, that's great.
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    Sun Apr 10, 2022 1:07 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    ...
    Imagine the Baklunish building a military fort on its border. ... A tent city becomes a shanty town. More fortifications are added. Shrines to Fharlanghn are erected. The shanty town becomes a true city. The original Baklunish fort becomes unrecognizable as Oeridian troops expand on it.


    Thanks Rasgon - Yes, I can see how you can make that work, but that is a very different sort of backstory than the one given for Gaxxmoor and the empire to which it was connected. I mean what you are describing is the establishment of a city that has next to nothing to do with the empire or its fortunes, other than that it happened to grow around the original, imperial fort eventually abandoned. The place has been completely taken over by someone else and transformed into something else, kinda like Detroit or Saint Louis are no longer connected to the trading posts established by Imperial France. Good story but very different.

    Aldarron wrote:

    Quote:
    it's clear the intent was that it be an Oeridian city and and outpost of an Oeridian Empire


    It's an empire to the west of a city in the Fals Gap, an empire that was destroyed during a conflict with an empire of the Suel. It's extremely clear to me what was meant, though I appreciate that the phrase "Oeridian empire" seems to have confused a lot of people, including possibly Gary Gygax himself.


    Ah, my bad, what I meant was that it was clear that during the original creation of Gaxxmoor, long before the introduction was written for publication the city was conceived of as an Oeridain colonial city of an Oeridian empire. I think the placement in Bissel and switch to the Baklunish empire was a last minute thing by someone with a better handle on Greyhawk canon in order to try to make the general backstory Ernie and David Moore had come up with fit canon somehow. That seems pretty evident from what people had said about it (including Gary) and the confusion in the text.
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    GreySage

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    Tue Apr 12, 2022 6:16 pm  

    Aldarron wrote:

    -350 CY: The Aerdi appear on the border of the Oeridian Kingdom. After extracting an exorbitant payment from the Southern Confederation they attack the Oeridian Kingdom. (3)


    Let me see if I am understanding this part of the timeline correctly:

    The Aerdi (being an Oeridian tribe themselves);

    Travel eastward across the Flanaess, presumably battling through the Suel nations of the Duchy and County of Urnst (which weren't called that until the Kingdom of Aerdy named them that);

    These Suel nations, having presumably fought a huge war with the Aerdi as that Oeridian tribe moved through their lands, somehow maintained enough strength to attack the nation of Lum;

    Arriving in the east at the border of another Oeridian nation, the Aerdi are convinced (bribed) by Flan tribes and the Suel nations/tribes they had just fought to fight against their own Oeridian brothers in a land surrounded by hostile, non-Oeridian, tribes.

    Did I get it right? Happy
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    GreySage

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    Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:10 am  

    SirXaris wrote:
    Travel eastward across the Flanaess, presumably battling through the Suel nations of the Duchy and County of Urnst (which weren't called that until the Kingdom of Aerdy named them that)


    The migration map in A Guide to the World of Greyhawk, page 10, shows the Oeridians migrating north of the Nyr Dyv, through what is now the Shield Lands and the Bandit Kingdoms. They would have traveled through part of the northern County of Urnst, but they would have skipped the Duchy of Urnst entirely. It's reasonable to think that the territory of what is now the County of Urnst was not thickly populated with Suloise at the time, and that some of the migrating Oeridians settled there, explaining the County's partly Oeridian heritage. With the houses that became Maure and Urnst migrating through the Sheldomar and the Oeridians coming from north of the Nyr Dyv, I don't think their migration paths overlapped much.

    We know there was some conflict between Suloise and Oeridian migrants, and Ivid the Undying has Lum the Mad as one of those who seem to have been one of the major forces in defeating their Suloise rivals. I think this was likely the period before the Invoked Devastation, when some Suel were being forced into the south and some to the north between 5071-5093 SD (-445 to -423 CY).

    The Machine of Lum the Mad is a difficult concept to fit into the World of Greyhawk setting, which lacks a defined technomagical empire like Mystara has. There's the mysterious "people now forgotten" who built the Doomgrinder 8,000 years ago according to The Doomgrinder adventure, whose weapons were removed and scattered throughout the Flanaess. Perhaps the Machine was related to that ancient war. There's also the City of the Gods civilization in Blackmoor. Ivid the Undying mentions the Machine among the "artifacts of extraordinary antiquity" the Oeridians brought with them during their migrations, while Vortex of Madness and Other Planar Perils states that Lum found it in a conquered castle.
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    Sat Apr 16, 2022 5:43 am  

    SirXaris wrote:
    Aldarron wrote:

    -350 CY: The Aerdi appear on the border of the Oeridian Kingdom. After extracting an exorbitant payment from the Southern Confederation they attack the Oeridian Kingdom. (3)


    Let me see if I am understanding this part of the timeline correctly:...


    That bit is really based directly off the post by Scott McMillan. posted January 02, 2021 https://rulersoftheaerdi.blogspot.com/2021/01/the-pre-aerdy-period-lum-mad-and-luek-o.html

    I thought it was brilliant stuff, but I'm really swimming in unfamiliar waters. I'd say give it a read.
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