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    Canonfire :: View topic - Pholtus, realm & redidence ?
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    Pholtus, realm & redidence ?
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    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 30, 2022
    Posts: 68
    From: France

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    Fri Oct 28, 2022 11:58 am  
    Pholtus, realm & redidence ?

    Hi there
    A remark and a question on the krealm and the residence of Pholtus:
    AD&D1: LG (LN) and Arcadia
    FtA: forgot
    On Hallowed Ground: LN and Mechanus/Path of the Law
    Player's Guide: LG (LN)
    Complete Divine : LG
    LGG: LG (LN)
    Dragon 294: LG and Mount Celestia
    Greyhawk wiki: LG (LN) and Mechanus/Path of Law
    The Thieves Guild: LG and Mechanus/Path of the Law
    For me: LG (LN) and Arcadia. The same kingdom as St Cuthbert, the Bastion of Law protects the Path of Law.

    Similarly, some gods do not live on the plane of their alignment. For example Hextor, Nerull, Erythnul... Is it possible with regard to the petitioners? where are they going ? Hades or Tartarus?
    Jacques
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3283
    From: Michigan

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    Sat Oct 29, 2022 6:42 am  
    Re: Pholtus, realm & redidence ?

    Docjacques wrote:
    Hi there
    A remark and a question on the krealm and the residence of Pholtus:

    AD&D1: LG (LN) and Arcadia
    FtA: forgot
    On Hallowed Ground: LN and Mechanus/Path of the Law


    One possible way to reconcile this: Planes of Law tells us that the third layer of Arcadia has recently slid into Mechanus (the planes are not always stable; towns, realms, and whole layers can shift from one to another as their alignments shift). Perhaps Pholtus's realm was carried with it.

    Quote:
    Similarly, some gods do not live on the plane of their alignment. For example Hextor, Nerull, Erythnul... Is it possible with regard to the petitioners? where are they going ? Hades or Tartarus?
    Jacques


    Those who primarily worship a specific god go to the realm of their patron god, regardless of what plane they dwell upon. So neutral evil, lawful neutral, and lawful evil worshipers of Hextor all go to Hextor's realm in Acheron.

    Erythnul is chaotic evil with chaotic neutral tendencies according to most sources, so Pandemonium is the plane you'd expect him to live on (and it's where all sources place him).

    In Dragon Magazine #64 (page 13), Gary Gygax recommended deities that Deities & Demigods placed in the Nine Hells be moved to neighboring planes. In Dragon #75, Ed Greenwood offered his explanation for this: "Certainly, from a design standpoint, these deities are best removed, for if the archdevils themselves (see the DDG book) are merely lesser gods, how do they exist amicably with Set, a greater god who conceivably has the power to (lawful evil, remember?) rule them?"

    I don't know for sure that this was Gary Gygax's reasoning for placing Hextor in Acheron rather than the Nine Hells, but I suspect it was. It leaves the archdevils as unquestioned rulers of the Nine Hells, with deities like Hextor less likely to threaten their power.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 30, 2022
    Posts: 68
    From: France

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    Sun Oct 30, 2022 9:21 am  
    Re: Pholtus, realm & redidence ?

    rasgon wrote:
    Docjacques wrote:
    Hi there
    A remark and a question on the krealm and the residence of Pholtus:

    AD&D1: LG (LN) and Arcadia
    FtA: forgot
    On Hallowed Ground: LN and Mechanus/Path of the Law


    One possible way to reconcile this: Planes of Law tells us that the third layer of Arcadia has recently slid into Mechanus (the planes are not always stable; towns, realms, and whole layers can shift from one to another as their alignments shift). Perhaps Pholtus's realm was carried with it.

    Quote:
    Similarly, some gods do not live on the plane of their alignment. For example Hextor, Nerull, Erythnul... Is it possible with regard to the petitioners? where are they going ? Hades or Tartarus?
    Jacques


    Those who primarily worship a specific god go to the realm of their patron god, regardless of what plane they dwell upon. So neutral evil, lawful neutral, and lawful evil worshipers of Hextor all go to Hextor's realm in Acheron.

    Erythnul is chaotic evil with chaotic neutral tendencies according to most sources, so Pandemonium is the plane you'd expect him to live on (and it's where all sources place him).

    In Dragon Magazine #64 (page 13), Gary Gygax recommended deities that Deities & Demigods placed in the Nine Hells be moved to neighboring planes. In Dragon #75, Ed Greenwood offered his explanation for this: "Certainly, from a design standpoint, these deities are best removed, for if the archdevils themselves (see the DDG book) are merely lesser gods, how do they exist amicably with Set, a greater god who conceivably has the power to (lawful evil, remember?) rule them?"

    I don't know for sure that this was Gary Gygax's reasoning for placing Hextor in Acheron rather than the Nine Hells, but I suspect it was. It leaves the archdevils as unquestioned rulers of the Nine Hells, with deities like Hextor less likely to threaten their power.



    Thanks Rasgon. I am not a Planescape expert. I have to re-read the "Plane of..." Good idea!
    You rightly evoke the strange relationship between the gods of Greyhawk and the devils or the celestials. Who created who? The gods should be older than the fiends who serve them. Or were they there before the gods? But from the DRAGON articles (and an older and amazing article "The Politics of Hell" which I will translate), it seems that the hells is for the devils and the heavens for the angels.
    However, we speak of infinite planes; there is a room for everyone. But the "Dantesque" "religious" influence is omnipresent in D&D. And the reference to Asmodeus being an Elder Brethen further complicates the game.
    For that, no angels or demons in my game: devas and devils. I try to make as few religious references as possible.
    Jacques
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 26, 2002
    Posts: 491
    From: Canada

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    Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:09 am  

    I used to wonder why the evil gods didn't just crush the demon lords and arch-devils and rule the lower planes themselves too, but I came up with a non-canon explanation for it.

    When the Dark Lord, Dread Tharizdun, threatened all of existence, he was finally defeated when a brave solar sacrificed herself by letting him eat her. Dread Tharizdun was so sickened, he vomited up the lower planes and the first devils, demons and daemons. His illness allowed the rest of the gods to imprison him, concluding what mortals know as the Imprisoning War.

    The demon lords and arch devils are tainted with a very small part of the Dark Lord's essence which effectively ties them to their planar homes. This essence also makes them effectively immune to harm from the gods. Hence why the evil gods are forced to dwell as tenants in the lower planes, although they certainly wouldn't mind just controlling the planes themselves if they could.

    Note that the fiends' immunity to divine destruction doesn't protect them from humans, demihumans and other mortals. They can be harmed by mortals and even totally destroyed if slain on their home planes, but their vast powers and skills obviously mean this is easier said than done.
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