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    Canonfire :: View topic - Mountain Range Population Figures
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    Mountain Range Population Figures
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    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 20, 2004
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    From: British Isles

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    Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:03 pm  
    Mountain Range Population Figures

    Does anyone has any thoughts or guidance regarding calculating the human & demihuman population sizes within the various mountain ranges? There are populations listed for some of the major forests in A Guide to the World of Greyhawk but not for hills and mountains sadly.

    What would be a sensible population density range?
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    From: TregMallin

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    Fri Dec 09, 2022 8:15 am  

    I'd go with a very small number of humans for actual mountain ranges.

    Looking at a place like Afghanistan, it's population density back in the early 1960s was 14 people / km2 (or about 36 people / square mile).

    Even that might be a high density for the mountains of the Flanaess... at least for humans. People engaged in transhumance, prospecting and other itinerant folks.

    As for hill and mountain dwarves, they would probably have pretty decent population density in the mountains and hills that are most important to them.
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    Fri Dec 09, 2022 11:02 am  

    Kron Hills - 20k gnomes WOG boxed set p. 49
    Glorioles- 10k+ mountain dwarves WOG boxed set p. 53

    P. 18 notes that population numbers for Demi-humans and humanoids in the nation-by-nation section are for fighting males only. Not entirely clear if the same goes for the few figures listed in the major geographical features section. I would say it does.

    Dragon 57 gives some additional info on eastern ranges.
    Hollow Highlands - an army of 3000 dwarves, gnomes and halflings marched to support Idee. Not specific, but must be more in the Highlands if they can field an army of 3k. P. 16

    Iron Hills - King Holgi Hirsute fielded an army of 10k dwarves moved against South Province forces. There were also 3k gnomes but not clear from the text where they came from. P. 15
    Adept Greytalker

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    From: Verbobonc

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    Fri Dec 09, 2022 3:35 pm  

    TregMallin wrote:
    I'd go with a very small number of humans for actual mountain ranges.

    Looking at a place like Afghanistan, it's population density back in the early 1960s was 14 people / km2 (or about 36 people / square mile).

    Even that might be a high density for the mountains of the Flanaess... at least for humans. People engaged in transhumance, prospecting and other itinerant folks.


    I would point out that while Afghanistan has lots of mountains, much of the terrain is more accurately "high desert" or arid... think the Mojave, vice the Rockies. Also, the whole country is at elevation, I think a base of about 2,000 above sea level if I recall, but it may be different.

    The typical, pre-industrial mountain lifestyle was a mix of herding and agriculture depending on the micro-climate. It does not lend itself to large communities. Add in fantastic competitors such as Dwarves (not necessarily hostile, but they are using the resources too), and monsters, and I suspect humans are largely happy to leave these lands to someone else.
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    Sat Dec 10, 2022 11:31 am  

    For reference, the Gnomish Vale in Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth consists of 675 gnomes (with 3 giant badgers) and is described as "a large clan of gnomes". It also pegs a hex as being 3.5 miles.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    From: TregMallin

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    Sun Dec 11, 2022 5:48 am  

    tarelton wrote:
    TregMallin wrote:
    I'd go with a very small number of humans for actual mountain ranges.

    Looking at a place like Afghanistan, it's population density back in the early 1960s was 14 people / km2 (or about 36 people / square mile).

    Even that might be a high density for the mountains of the Flanaess... at least for humans. People engaged in transhumance, prospecting and other itinerant folks.


    I would point out that while Afghanistan has lots of mountains, much of the terrain is more accurately "high desert" or arid... think the Mojave, vice the Rockies. Also, the whole country is at elevation, I think a base of about 2,000 above sea level if I recall, but it may be different.

    The typical, pre-industrial mountain lifestyle was a mix of herding and agriculture depending on the micro-climate. It does not lend itself to large communities. Add in fantastic competitors such as Dwarves (not necessarily hostile, but they are using the resources too), and monsters, and I suspect humans are largely happy to leave these lands to someone else.


    True enough regarding Afghanistan's topology. Bhutan could be a more apt model. It had a single digit population density at the same time.

    I think I'd just keep it as "no large permanent (human) settlements, and a finite but still pretty small number of herder, prospectors and hermits.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sat Dec 17, 2022 10:20 am  

    Thanks for the feedback everyone!

    I'd starting working on population figures for various nations but totally overlooked that the figures listed in the WoG Guide exclude the populations of major geographical features (which I assume to mean any of the hill / mountain ranges and woodlands mentioned on pages 48-60.

    The forests have plenty of population figures to help work out the others but the hills and mountains not so much.
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    Mon Dec 19, 2022 5:31 pm  

    Yeah, I wish they had provided more clarity on this, even if they didn’t provide numbers. For example, the Principality of Ulek has 30k dwarves capable of fighting, which means it must have more than 30k dwarves. Where are they if not in the portion of the Lortmils within the Principality?
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Dec 20, 2022 2:46 am  

    Califor wrote:
    For example, the Principality of Ulek has 30k dwarves capable of fighting, which means it must have more than 30k dwarves.
    Sure, but remember that they’re dwarves. Humans fit for combat might be only 1:5 or 1:10 of the population, but the dwur are 1:2 or better. Given the 27,000 quoted in the Guide, I’d peg the total dwur population at 45–50,000.
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Dec 20, 2022 3:12 am  

    Here are some numbers I compiled when creating my Place of Birth table. It was 17 years ago, so anybody’s guess where I came up with these numbers. I do recall looking at the encounter tables in the Glossography and assuming at least one “lair” for any race encountered there.

    Barrier Peaks
    Dwur, Mountain: 800

    Cairn Hills
    Dwur, Hill: 800
    Noniz: 4,000
    Hobniz, Hairfoot: 300
    Hobniz, Stout: 300

    Clatspur Range
    Dwur, Mountain: 400

    Corusk Mountains
    Dwur, Hill: 400
    Dwur, Mountain: 400

    Crystalmist Mountains
    Dwur, Mountain: 400

    Flinty Hills
    Dwur, Hill: 640
    Olve, High: 200
    Noniz: 840
    Hobniz, Stout: 300

    Glorioles
    Dwur, Hill: 22,500
    Dwur, Mountain: 10,000
    Olve, High: 260
    Noniz: 400
    Euroz: 730

    Good Hills
    Dwur, Hill: 640
    Olve, High: 200
    Noniz: 840
    Hobniz, Stout: 300

    Griff Mountains
    Dwur, Hill: 400
    Dwur, Mountain: 400

    Gull Cliffs
    Dwur, Hill: 640
    Olve, High: 200
    Noniz: 840
    Hobniz, Stout: 300

    Headlands
    Dwur, Hill: 2,000
    Olve, High: 200
    Noniz: 1,600
    Hobniz, Stout: 300

    Hestmark Highlands
    Dwur, Hill: 651
    Dwur, Mountain: 400
    Olve, High: 240
    Noniz: 400
    Euroz: 730
    Humans: 5,500

    Hollow Highlands
    Dwur, Hill: 1,079
    Olve, High: 200
    Noniz: 1,416
    Hobniz, Stout: 506

    Iron Hills
    Dwur, Hill: 9,000
    Olve, High: 200
    Noniz: 2,500
    Hobniz, Stout: 300

    Jotens
    Dwur, Mountain: 400

    Kron Hills
    Dwur, Hill: 2,000
    Olve, High: 200
    Olve, Sylvan: 4,000
    Noniz: 20,000
    Hobniz, Stout: 300

    Little Hills
    Dwur, Hill: 640
    Olve, High: 200
    Noniz: 840
    Hobniz, Stout: 300
    Humans: 1,500

    Lorridges
    Dwur, Hill: 640
    Olve, High: 200
    Noniz: 840
    Hobniz, Stout: 300

    Lortmil Mountains
    Dwur, Hill: 400
    Dwur, Mountain: 495
    Noniz: 400
    Hobniz, Hairfoot: 300
    Hobniz, Stout: 300

    Stark Mounds
    Dwur, Hill: 640
    Olve, High: 200
    Noniz: 840
    Hobniz, Stout: 300

    The Rakers
    Dwur, Hill: 400
    Dwur, Mountain: 533

    Yatils
    Dwur, Mountain: 400
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