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    Canonfire :: View topic - Chronology between GDQ et T1-4
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    Chronology between GDQ et T1-4
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    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 30, 2022
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    From: France

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    Sat Jan 07, 2023 9:00 am  
    Chronology between GDQ et T1-4

    Hello everyone

    I am currently translating the T1-4 OAR from Goodman Games and I am using the French version of the AD&D1 ToEE, a rare adventure translated at this time into French.

    I think this subject has been written a lot (I read Joe Bloch's articles on the difficult connection between T1-4 and GDQ (or GD3) ). Sorry for the old ones.

    I find these two sentences interesting:

    ToEE page 29
    "Having just learned of the sharp
    check dealt to Lolth in her plans to wreak
    Evil"
    and
    "But as it transpired, Lolth could - and can
    yet - give only encouragement, without
    physical or magical aid, to those who call on
    her."

    Doesn't that mean GDQ happens before T1-4 ?
    I am not totally convinced by the articles of Joe Bloch who wants these sentences to refer to the betrayal of the Eilservs.

    What do you think ?

    Jacques
    GreySage

    Joined: Jul 26, 2010
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    From: LG Dyvers

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    Sat Jan 07, 2023 9:42 am  

    The 'sharp check' dealt to Lolth could refer to the defeat of Lareth, the Beautiful in ToEE. Which makes it happen before GDQ.

    Otherwise, you can chalk it up to the inconsistency of the early days of TSR when modules were written and released based on home brew events, but not necessarily in the same order they happened.

    SirXaris
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    Last edited by SirXaris on Sat Jan 07, 2023 7:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sat Jan 07, 2023 6:00 pm  

    I don't have the modules in front of me, but as I understand it the G/D/Q series did take place several years before the T series in canon.

    Doesn't have to be that way in your game, of course.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sun Jan 08, 2023 10:23 am  

    Yeah, was just bad editing on TSR’s part. They should have revised the secret history of the temple to eliminate those references to GDQ or revised them to make them fit the timeline contemplated in the published modules.

    Slightly off topic, but I wanted to give a shout out to Bloch’s T0 Journey to Hommlet supplement. I thought it was an elegant intro to the ToEE campaign. Well worth incorporating.
    CF Admin

    Joined: Jun 29, 2001
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    From: Wichita, KS, USA

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    Sun Jan 08, 2023 1:10 pm  

    Docjacques wrote:
    Doesn't that mean GDQ happens before T1-4 ?
    I am not totally convinced by the articles of Joe Bloch who wants these sentences to refer to the betrayal of the Eilservs.

    What do you think ?


    Yes, that's my read. Chronologically, the G/D/Q modules were published prior to T1-4, so Lolth was presumed to have been defeated in some manner prior to her "rebuilding phase" in the T1 moathouse and in ToEE.

    I think that's the "general consensus" timeline interpretation.

    SirXaris wrote:
    The 'sharp check' dealt to Lolth could refer to the defeat of Lareth, the Beautiful in ToEE. Which makes it happen before GDQ.


    I think you can definitely tie it more specifically to Lareth vs. to past history in GDQ, too, which is a fun interpretation!

    Allan.
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Mon Jan 09, 2023 5:30 am  

    Reading that passage again, doesn’t it imply that the sharp check to Lolth occurred BEFORE the initial rise of the Temple? The sharp check to Lolth is the reason Zuggtmoy agrees to partner with Iuz in the first place. That would mean GDQ happened before the battle of Emridy Meadows - long before the events of T1-4 begin.

    And now I seem to recall reading criticism of this secret history of the temple because it has Iuz partnering with Zuggtmoy at a time when Iuz is imprisoned under Castle Greyhawk.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Mon Jan 09, 2023 2:27 pm  

    Califor wrote:
    Reading that passage again, doesn’t it imply that the sharp check to Lolth occurred BEFORE the initial rise of the Temple? The sharp check to Lolth is the reason Zuggtmoy agrees to partner with Iuz in the first place. That would mean GDQ happened before the battle of Emridy Meadows - long before the events of T1-4 begin.

    And now I seem to recall reading criticism of this secret history of the temple because it has Iuz partnering with Zuggtmoy at a time when Iuz is imprisoned under Castle Greyhawk.



    Thank you for your answers.
    I think Iuz comes late in this plan, probably after his release.

    I take this opportunity to ask a few questions :

    - Why does Zuggtmoy make the Skull? for one of her priests? the skull is not necessary to enter the nodes? dangerous because his destructionwith the gems can banish Zuggtmoy and destroy the temple.

    - How can Falrith have the Skull? Iuz knows who has the Skull. Given by Zuggtmoy to his priests after the battle of Emridy Meadows.

    - it is said that there are 7 sections: the 4 elementary ones, Zuggtmoy, Iuz and Lolth. The Great Temple is instead today led by Iuz.
    Who gives the spells to the four elemental temples? the archomentals? Then Zuggtmoy, now Iuz?

    Thanks'
    Jacques
    Adept Greytalker

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    Mon Jan 09, 2023 9:13 pm  

    I will second Califor's comment that T0 Journey to Hommlet is an excellent introduction to T1-4. It's free on Greyhawk Grognard's website; check it out if you haven't yet.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Mon Jan 09, 2023 10:15 pm  

    I wrote about it a little in this earlier thread.

    rasgon wrote:
    If Lolth's weakness was because of her defeat in Q1, this makes some sense, but, as I said above, the GDQ supermodule specifically takes place after the events of T1-4. But it's true that T1-4 doesn't specify the nature of the "sharp check dealt to Lolth." So perhaps some other event limited Lolth's power to intervene on Oerth, like her priests' conflict with the Elder Elemental God's cult. It feels like there's an untold story here of Lolth suffering some great defeat prior to the construction of the Temple of Elemental Evil. It seems more dramatic than House Eilservs and its allies defecting from Lolth's faith to the Elder Elemental God; it feels like Lolth suffered a banishment which allowed Eclavdra to become confident she could defect from Lolth with impunity in the first place. And yet, by the time the GDQ series rolls around, Lolth is powerful enough that she can invade multiple worlds at once.


    I realize that this wasn't Gygax's intent, though. Obviously the "sharp check" was meant to be the events of the GDQ series. But the untold story of Lolth's earlier defeat is interesting enough that I think it might be worth fleshing out. War with another demon prince? A rebellion among the drow pantheon?
    GreySage

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    Mon Jan 09, 2023 10:34 pm  

    Docjacques wrote:
    I think Iuz comes late in this plan, probably after his release.


    The problem with that is that by the time Iuz is released, Zuggtmoy is imprisoned. Zuggtmoy is imprisoned beneath the temple in 569 CY. Iuz is freed in 570 CY, a year later, and the temple is already a ruin. That doesn't match T1-4's line "Zuggtmoy was bound in its dungeons, but luz remained free (just as he had planned)." He couldn't have planned for Zuggtmoy to be bound while he remained free if she was already bound when he first joined the plan.

    An alternative is that they conspired with one another prior to Iuz's imprisonment in 505 CY.

    Some have suggested Iuz somehow conspired with Zuggtmoy from inside his prison, but one effect of the obelisk beneath Castle Greyhawk is that it prevented the prisoners from calling out for aid. Greyhawk Ruins, page 63: "Zagig knew that the obelisk below prevented the gods from calling on any other divine aid and also weakened these beings."
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue Jan 10, 2023 5:48 am  

    The golden skull is described as a “key” and a “tool for men to wield” (see poem on p. 44). My impression was that it was created to aid in the creation of the elemental gates and nodes, to maintain those planar connections, to aid in the use of the gates and nodes, or maybe all of the above. I’m not sure that’s correct since there are some comments in the module that seem to me to be inconsistent with some of these purposes (e.g., the description of the greater temple is clear that elemental creature summoning continues but there is no mention of the golden skull having to be present or the fact that the temple leaders do not have the power gems).

    Alternatively, they might have created it simply to provide visible “proof” of the power of elemental evil to the followers of the temple, and a powerful tool for the leader of the temple to control those followers. Because the orb had the power to strengthen the temple, it also had the power to destroy it. Such is the nature of magic.

    Falrinth is a mystery to me. It never made much sense for him to have the orb. But I rationalized that Hedrack gave it to Falrinth, when not needed by the Greater Temple, to study and perhaps learn how to free Zuggtmoy. Hedrack new (from Iuz) that this effort would fail but wanted to appear to be working towards freeing the temple’s demon benefactor.

    Where the priests of the elemental temples get their spells is an interesting question that hadn’t occurred to me before. None of those priests are higher than 5th level, so third level spells are the highest they can pray for. Those could be granted by an intermediary instead of Zuggtmoy herself. Or perhaps Zuggtmoy can grant them because she is imprisoned on the prime material rather than on some more distant plane.

    Senshock is Zuggtmoy’s highest level follower and maybe not coincidentally is a wizard not a cleric. The clerical leaders in the greater temple (Berkinar and Deggum) were recruited by Hedrack so perhaps Iuz grants their spells.

    Interesting questions! :)
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue Jan 10, 2023 7:07 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    Docjacques wrote:
    I think Iuz comes late in this plan, probably after his release.


    The problem with that is that by the time Iuz is released, Zuggtmoy is imprisoned. Zuggtmoy is imprisoned beneath the temple in 569 CY. Iuz is freed in 570 CY, a year later, and the temple is already a ruin. That doesn't match T1-4's line "Zuggtmoy was bound in its dungeons, but luz remained free (just as he had planned)." He couldn't have planned for Zuggtmoy to be bound while he remained free if she was already bound when he first joined the plan.

    An alternative is that they conspired with one another prior to Iuz's imprisonment in 505 CY.

    Some have suggested Iuz somehow conspired with Zuggtmoy from inside his prison, but one effect of the obelisk beneath Castle Greyhawk is that it prevented the prisoners from calling out for aid. Greyhawk Ruins, page 63: "Zagig knew that the obelisk below prevented the gods from calling on any other divine aid and also weakened these beings."



    Thanks to Rasgon for reminding me of the dates Iuz and Zuggtmoy were imprisoned.
    It remains before 505 AC. The project is grandiose and the construction of the Temple could have been spread over several decades.

    As for what happened to Lolth before, I have an idea.
    EG cultists attempted to hijack the dark elves of Lolth. The fight was tough and Lolth was weakened. Houses loyal to Lolth have taken over.

    Lolth was fought by Zuggtmoy. Why Zuggtmoy? what does it have to do with the EEG? Zuggtmoy shares his domain of the Abyss with Juiblex, a strange Lord of Demons. Juiblex is one of the three lost gods in C. Sargent's Monster Mythology. The other two are the Dark God and the EEG, both attached to Tharizdun. What if Juiblex was a third form of Tharizdun, a weakened form confined to the Abyss that tries to unleash Tharizdun's most powerful form, the EEG. Fight between Juiblex + Zuggtmoy against Lolth. Lolth is almost destroyed.

    Why are they attacking Lolth? some Greyhawk worshipers believe that the EEG is taken prisoner by Lolth after being punched by Beory. Joe Bloch makes it a D4 and a Q2.

    A few years later, Eclavdra and her house try to seize power in the Fane : GDQ.
    Meanwhile, Zuggtmoy creates the Temple with the help of Iuz.

    Your opinion ?
    Jacques
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