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    Canonfire :: View topic - The Amazons of Hardby
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    The Amazons of Hardby
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    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Feb 07, 2023 6:40 am  
    The Amazons of Hardby

    Before I reinvent the wheel, has anyone attempted to reconcile Gary’s presentation of Amazons (both in Polyhedron #22 and as depicted in the Minifigs line) with everything else we know about Hardby? To wit, we know that the Gynarchs have historically been sorceresses. It seems odd to me that magic-hating barbarians would serve a sorceress. We also know Deirdre Longhand is a cavalier, so evidently Hardby has an order of knights, too. It’s no wonder later developers ignored the Amazons, but I’d like to find a slightly less misogynistic way to incorporate the concept.
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    Tue Feb 07, 2023 12:28 pm  

    I miss the Hardby Amazons and would be curious and interested in what you come up with. The Flanaess needs more women-dominated areas, IMO.
    GreySage

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    Tue Feb 07, 2023 7:16 pm  

    Well, 'Amazon' could simply be the term used to describe the powerful women in a matriarchal society. It doesn't matter if those women are spell-casters, warriors, or simply statesmen (um... stateswomen). It could be a term male outsiders use derogatorily to describe a woman who thinks she can give a man orders or rule in place of men.

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    Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:43 am  

    SirXaris wrote:
    Well, 'Amazon' could simply be the term used to describe the powerful women in a matriarchal society. It doesn't matter if those women are spell-casters, warriors, or simply statesmen (um... stateswomen). It could be a term male outsiders use derogatorily to describe a woman who thinks she can give a man orders or rule in place of men.

    SirXaris


    I think canon used the term gynarchy, meaning rule by women, to describe the governing structure of Hardby, with the ruler termed the despotrix (feminine of despot). the term "Amazon" historically was applied to a specific (possibly real, possibly imagined) tribe of warrior women among the Scythians in Herodotus' Histories. These women were a tribe of steppe nomads, sometimes in confederation with the Sythians, sometimes in conflict with them.

    Now I am trying to see if I can find my copy of Histories after moving...
    Master Greytalker

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    Wed Feb 08, 2023 11:07 am  

    For reference, here’s Gary’s write-up of Amazons from Polyhedron #22:

    Quote:
    Missing Monsters
    While thumbing through the pages of MM II, I noted that not only was the goristroi demon missing, but that somehow the stats for “Men, Amazon”, had been omitted. While the former monster is for the pages of a DRAGON® Magazine article, the latter is presented here first exclusively for the RPGA™ Network. Without further ado, here’s amazons!

    MEN
    Amazon


    FREQUENCY: Very rare
    NO. APPEARING: 5–30
    ARMOR CLASS: By armor type plus dexterity bonus
    MOVE: 15"
    HIT DICE: 4d10 plus constitution bonuses
    % IN LAIR: 10%
    TREASURE TYPE: Individuals M, Q; in lair R, S, X
    NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
    DAMAGE/ATTACK: By weapon type or 1d8 (plus strength bonus)
    SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
    SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
    MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
    INTELLIGENCE: Low to genius
    ALIGNMENT: Neutral
    SIZE: M (6'–7' tall)
    PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
    Attack/Defense Modes: Nil/nil
    LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: Variable/variable

    These barbaric warrior women are, in effect, heroines. They have strength ranging between 15 and 18 (00 possible) and dexterity and constitution ranging between 13 and 18. Their leaders are barbarian fighters. All favor light chainmail, but armor varies. Weapons are typical of those used by barbarians.

    If unarmed, an amazon will use blows, kicks, nails, teeth, etc. to inflict damage of 1–6 points of damage per round. An amazon can never be surprised except by invisible attackers.

    An amazon party of 10 or more will have 1 additional leader-type of 5th or 6th level barbarian ability, and a 2nd level witch doctor. 20 or more will also have 1 “captain” of 7th or 8th level barbarian ability. When “in lair”, amazons will have a full 30 warrior women, 4 leaders of 5th or 6th level barbarian ability, 1 leader of 7th or 8th level barbarian ability, and a Queen — a barbarian of 9th–12th level ability (and hit dice). There will also be a magic-user witch doctor of 4th level. There will be twice the number of (normal) males, half of whom will be equal to men-at-arms. Men are typically armed and armored as are their amazon mistresses. The others will have care of 2–12 children. The Queen will have 4 male guards of 2nd or 3rd level fighter ability, and 2 female guards of 5th–6th level barbarian class.

    Whenever 30 or more total amazons are encountered, there is a likelihood of 30% that they are one of 2–5 raiding parties in the area. If this is the case, the “lair” will be a ship or pack/wagon train, as applicable. Other groups will always be within 5 miles of the party initially encountered.

    The territory from which the amazons come indicates what sort of weapons they will use, horsemanship, skill with small water craft, and so forth. Amazons have no regular clerics or magic-users, save witch doctors, but males of the race have been known to become clerics.

    Amazons are tall human women. They tend to be good-looking, but are hard-eyed (and hard-hearted too).
    GreySage

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    Wed Feb 08, 2023 11:28 am  

    I'd be tempted to make that sort of Amazon an earlier phase of Hardby's culture. Effectively extinct by the sixth century of the Common Year, but evidence of it can be found in the form of ancient frescoes and historical armor found in older structures like the temples, the palace of the Gynarch, in catacombs beneath the town, and in nearby dungeons where undead Amazons might still reside. Sapient weapons and armor dating back to that time might inspire small-scale revivals.

    The culture might actually predate the Suel migration, but an alliance between Ena Norbe and the Flan Amazons might have allowed the culture to persist in some form for centuries. I'm not sure they're actually magic-hating, since they have witch doctors, but it's likely their culture was not founded by a Suel sorceress. The idea that their culture includes an exclusively male priesthood is an interesting twist.

    You might also look at the amazons in Andre Norton's novel Quag Keep.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Feb 08, 2023 2:07 pm  

    In my campaign the Hardby “quasi-Amazons” are as tall as males and have the same Strength maximums as the Human males. They are not Polyhedron Amazons.
    Master Greytalker

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    Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:20 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    I'd be tempted to make that sort of Amazon an earlier phase of Hardby's culture. Effectively extinct by the sixth century of the Common Year, but evidence of it can be found in the form of ancient frescoes and historical armor found in older structures like the temples, the palace of the Gynarch, in catacombs beneath the town, and in nearby dungeons where undead Amazons might still reside. Sapient weapons and armor dating back to that time might inspire small-scale revivals.

    The culture might actually predate the Suel migration, but an alliance between Ena Norbe and the Flan Amazons might have allowed the culture to persist in some form for centuries. I'm not sure they're actually magic-hating, since they have witch doctors, but it's likely their culture was not founded by a Suel sorceress. The idea that their culture includes an exclusively male priesthood is an interesting twist.

    You might also look at the amazons in Andre Norton's novel Quag Keep.

    Interesting thoughts, rasgon. I like the idea of Flan amazons loosely allied with the Suel settlers under Ena Norbe. I don’t want them to be extinct, but a culture in severe decline would explain their scarcity in published works.
    GreySage

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    Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:03 pm  

    DMPrata wrote:
    I don’t want them to be extinct, but a culture in severe decline would explain their scarcity in published works.


    They could mostly dwell in the nearby hills, perhaps as far as the Abbor-Alz, which might keep them isolated and seldom seen.

    From the Ashes Campaign Book, 32:
    Quote:
    The human dwellers in the Abbor-Alz, the hillsmen, are a tough and independent bunch. Banditry is significantly more common as a way of life, and those who engage in it often foray into western Urnst and the lower plains of Greyhawk.

    The nomadic hillsmen herd mountain goats and keep the llamalike beasts for dairy produce and meat, and a few keep trained hawks used for bringing back rabbits and even small rock lizards, the tails of which are baked with herbs and considered a great delicacy. The hillsmen owe allegiance to no one; there are some 2,500 of them in the area shown the campaign map, most living in groups of 15-30 [this matches the Number Appearing line in the Amazon stat block pretty closely], save for the semi-permanent camp at Marstefel.


    The Mountaineer Militia might recruit from the Amazon tribes, which would ensure a constant presence within the town itself. Other Amazon warriors could come to town to trade for items they can't produce themselves.

    It's not that close to Hardby, but the hillmen of Marstefel could also be Amazons.


    Last edited by rasgon on Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:07 pm; edited 2 times in total
    Master Greytalker

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    Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:07 pm  

    Considering how much online ink I have shed arguing with people about female strength limits in 1e, I am aghast to learn that there was a Gygax source specifically permitting human women to have 18/00. So many wasted hours of my life trying to be persuasive when I could simply have said, "here".
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    Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:44 pm  
    Re: The Amazons of Hardby

    DMPrata wrote:
    Before I reinvent the wheel, has anyone attempted to reconcile Gary’s presentation of Amazons (both in Polyhedron #22 and as depicted in the Minifigs line) with everything else we know about Hardby? To wit, we know that the Gynarchs have historically been sorceresses. It seems odd to me that magic-hating barbarians would serve a sorceress. We also know Deirdre Longhand is a cavalier, so evidently Hardby has an order of knights, too. It’s no wonder later developers ignored the Amazons, but I’d like to find a slightly less misogynistic way to incorporate the concept.

    Interesting questions. I hadn't read that entry but note that it presents most "Amazons" as "barbarian fighters" along with a single "magic-user witch doctor of 4th level" when in-lair, plus males who are equal to 0-level "men-at-arms" and four male bodyguards who are fighters. Finally, the entry notes that some Amazons are horse riders and others use small water craft. Gary Gygax, Marlgoyles & Monster Manual II, in Polyhedron #22 (1984), at pg. 8.

    Comparing Gygax's treatment with Fred Weining's article, "Playing Pieces: The Despotrix of Hardby," in Living Greyhawk Journal #1 (2000), at pgs. 26–27, I notice Weining's mention "of the other 'amazon' societies that once flourished in the central Flanaess. Id. at 27 n.2 (discussing the Ehlonnan artifact, the Throne of Wood).

    Finally, dimly recalling past discussions of Greyhawk and this particular subject, I share the following ideas.

    First, the Amazon entry is not specific to Hardby, but we can use it to imagine various " 'amazon' societies that once flourished in the central Flanaess" – perhaps prior to the Great Migrations?

    Second, these societies may have practiced the Old Faith and otherwise acted in ways that seemed barbarous to societies that deemed themselves "civilized," which might have included Ur-Flan city-states and various Oeridian tribes (perhaps particularly the Aerdi?). Also, "civilized" might be code for patriarchal.

    As to the Gynarchy of Hardby, Weining states that it formed the original, female-led government of Hardby and "continued under the old Landstadt of the Selintan." Weining, supra, at 26. He also notes that the title of Gynarch belonged "to the matron of house Yragerne." Id. Finally, as of CY 591, the Despotrix Ilena Norbelos was a sixty-one-year-old human female 13th level wizard (under D&D 3e rules).

    Returning to DMPrata's questions, while the AD&D 1e barbarian class disdained (arcane) magic, this seems like a function of that class's derivation from "Conan the Barbarian" stories, and in Gygax's original formulation, it didn't preclude having a single "magic-user witch doctor," which (if I recall correctly) was a 1e NPC class that mixed clerical and magic-user spells and was typically limited to "humanoids" (e.g., hobgoblins and orcs).

    Returning to Weining's brief article, he notes that Hardby "has been associated with the city of Greyhawk for more than eight centuries[.]" Id. at 26.

    Thus, we might harmonize Gygax's treatment with the Hardby cavalier, Deirdre Longhand, by interpreting the former to represent the earlier "amazon" societies of the central Flanaess, and the latter as representing the urbanized "amazons" of Hardby circa CY 591.

    Finally, I believe that I posted some ideas about "Ehlonnan Riders" that used the 3e ranger class and a prestige class to represent a remnant of the past "amazon"-esque societies of the central Flanaess. (Their Animal Companion was a light riding horse, and they used a bow similar to the daikyu.)

    In closing, even if the original presentation echoes or caricatures historic Amazon myths, and is imbricated in heteropatriarchy, I think there's a lot you can do with it to imagine past matrilineal societies of the central Flanaess and how some of them survived and adapted to the Great Migrations, perhaps represented by Ehlonnan mystery cults, sects of the Old Faith (focused on Beory, Berei, and Ehlonna rather that Obad-hair), alliances with the clergy of Lydia, Lirr, Myhriss, etc.
    Master Greytalker

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    Sat Feb 11, 2023 12:05 pm  

    Thanks all for the feedback and ideas. Here’s what I’ve come up with mechanically for my 1E house rules document. (I still need to write a more fulsome description.)

    Amazons
    Description: Amazons are tall human women found in the plains around Hardby and the western Abbor-Alz. Base height is 6' + 2d6 inches; base weight is 130 + 10d12 lbs. They tend to be good-looking but are hard-eyed (and hard-hearted too).
    Ability Scores: Amazons roll the same dice as other barbarians, save that they take the best 3 of 4d6 for Comeliness. Note the following exceptions to barbarian minima and maxima: Strength may reach 18(00); Intelligence minimum is 5; and Dexterity and Constitution minima are 13.
    Eligible Class: Barbarian fighter, witch doctor.
    Race: Flan, Suel.
    Alignment: Any non-lawful (predominantly N); those of Good alignment may ride unicorns.
    Weapon Proficiencies: Required: Hand axe, knife, spear. Recommended: Bastard sword, battle-axe, composite bow, horseman’s flail, javelin, light lance, long sword, polearm.
    Non-Weapon Proficiencies: Required: None. Recommended: Boating, boatwright, riding (horse).
    Starting Money & Equipment: Studded leather (70%), or courser, leather armor (30%); 2d4 gp, 1d4 25-gp gems; plus shield, one weapon; 3 javelins; or bow, quiver, 12 arrows.
    Special Benefits: Amazons of levels 1–3 have a 3/2 melee attack rate; from 4th level on, they make 2 attacks per round. An Amazon is never surprised except by invisible attackers.
    Special Hindrances: Amazons use d10 for hit dice (with a minimum of 7 hp at 1st level), rather than the d12 used by other barbarians. They never have psionic ability.


    Last edited by DMPrata on Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:51 am; edited 2 times in total
    GreySage

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    Sat Feb 11, 2023 3:02 pm  

    I'm sure you intend this to be an NPC-only class since the smaller hit die doesn't make up for the extra attack and "never surprised" benefits. As an NPC class, I like it very much, as it will make for some fun opponents for a PC group.

    DMPrata wrote:

    Eligible Class: Barbarian fighter, witch doctor.


    I must question the above line. The lack of a comma between 'Barbarian' and 'fighter' leaves me wondering if 'fighter' is simply a descriptive term unnecessarily added to Barbarian, or if you meant that Amazons may be of the Barbarian class or the Fighter class or the Witch Doctor NPC class.

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    Sat Feb 11, 2023 5:21 pm  

    SirXaris wrote:
    I'm sure you intend this to be an NPC-only class since the smaller hit die doesn't make up for the extra attack and "never surprised" benefits. As an NPC class, I like it very much, as it will make for some fun opponents for a PC group.

    Nope, PC or NPC. I don’t believe in applying different rules for NPCs. I also don’t think the “never surprised (unless invisible)” benefit is too crazy, given that all barbarians are surprised only 5% or 10% of the time.

    SirXaris wrote:
    DMPrata wrote:

    Eligible Class: Barbarian fighter, witch doctor.


    I must question the above line. The lack of a comma between 'Barbarian' and 'fighter' leaves me wondering if 'fighter' is simply a descriptive term unnecessarily added to Barbarian, or if you meant that Amazons may be of the Barbarian class or the Fighter class or the Witch Doctor NPC class.

    SirXaris

    Gary himself used the phrase “barbarian fighter” in multiple places, including in the Amazon description I quoted above. IMC, I use that verbiage to distinguish barbarian fighters from barbarian clerics (which are otherwise clerics with barbarian ability scores).
    Master Greytalker

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    Sun Feb 12, 2023 5:35 am  

    I made a couple of small changes to the post above. I also need to write something up for the Order of True Womanhood, which I’m starting to see as the “civilized” evolution of Amazon culture. First I need to dig through Artifact of Evil with a fine-toothed comb for any pertinent information.
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    Sun Mar 12, 2023 8:53 pm  

    In addition to the Polyhedron version of Amazons that David posted above, there's a version that precedes it written by Roger Moore in Dragon #43 (Polyhedron #22 was Jan 1985):

    Quote:

    Amazon

    Created by Roger E. Moore

    FREQUENCY: Rare
    NUMBER APPEARING: 30-300
    ARMOR CLASS: 6 (7)
    MOVE: 12”
    HIT DICE: 1-6 hit points
    % IN LAIR: 80%
    TREASURE TYPE: A, Q x 20, T in lair; M on individuals
    NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
    DAMAGE/ATTACK: By weapon type
    SPECIAL ATTACKS: Leader types
    SPECIAL DEFENSES: Leader types
    MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
    INTELLIGENCE: Average to very
    ALIGNMENT: Neutral
    SIZE: M
    PSIONIC ABILITY: Leader types
    Attack Defense Modes: Leader types

    Amazons are women (and men) who are generally found in
    tropical and subtropical regions; they are not usually nomadic, and
    live in small well-guarded towns and cities, often walled. Amazon
    women perform all the functions that we would think of men as
    performing (like fighting and hunting), while the men are generally
    passive homebodies, and have a lower status than in most other
    societies. Both sexes generally see their situation as being proper
    and normal, and they will resist changes to the contrary. Male
    adventurers may find themselves objects of curiosity and disbelief
    (“Don’t you men know you could get lost or killed out in the
    wilderness? That’s woman’s work!”); attempts to establish male
    superiority will meet with derision, anger, and possible ostracism,
    expulsion, or arrest. Amazon colonies tend to be geographically
    isolated from the rest of the world, and have little external trade.

    Higher-level Fighters, Magic-Users, and Clerics will be found (all
    of them female) in the same levels and percentages as found using
    the bandit tables; i.e., for every 20 amazons, there will be a 3rd-level
    fighting woman, etc. The mounting, armor, and arms of an amazon
    colony are as follows:

    Studded leather armor, long composite bow 10%
    Studded leather armor & shield, sword 30%
    Studded leather armor & shield, spear 20%
    Studded leather armor, 3 javelins 10%
    Light horse, leather armor & shield, spear or lance 10%
    Light horse, leather armor & shield, sword 10%
    Light horse, leather armor, short composite bow 10%

    Cities and towns will have 1-4 ballistae and a 50% chance of 1-4
    catapults placed on towers around the walls. Higher-level personages
    have a 2% chance per level of having acquired a unicorn as a
    mount, and will not be found wearing heavier armor than chainmail.
    If magical armor is indicated for such a character, it will be of that
    type.

    Deities worshipped by amazon tribes are invariably female, and
    representative of power or war.


    I'm molding my Hardby amazons more along these civilized lines, although I'm also giving them a strong magical tradition in addition to a fighting one (after all, Zagig came from their lineage!).

    Allan.
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    Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:54 am  

    grodog wrote:
    In addition to the Polyhedron version of Amazons that David posted above, there's a version that precedes it written by Roger Moore in Dragon #43 (Polyhedron #22 was Jan 1985):

    That’s a good find, Allan. I think I like Moore’s version as the rank-and-file Amazons and Gary’s as the leader-types. I’ve modified my write-up above to match Moore’s weapons and armor more closely. (I’m also reminding myself to work on those cavaliers!)
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    Thu Apr 06, 2023 8:46 pm  

    Long time no see, everyone. I really like Rasgon's thinking on this although I'd go further (or maybe this was Rasgon's intention) and view the matriarchal society of Hardby as the fusion during the Great Migration period of a traditional matriarchal Amazon Flan culture with a woman-led group of Suloise migrants. The Flan provided warriors and the Suloise provided magic users with their bloodlines as well culture mixing.
    As time passed they've adopted things from outside their peculiar culture, like modern weapons, armor, tactics, magical innovations but still retained much of their traditions, probably due to a hard conservative bend to their society.
    Bringing it back to the Amazon minis the main problem seems to be the depictions of the Amazons as having bared breasts, which would be problematic in any realistic military sense. I think one solution to this is given by Rasgon again when he mentions "historical armor". Elaborating on this I'd like to bring in something I've read about recently; the concept of Sarmatism. Without going to deeply into it Sarmatism was a belief by the Polish nobility to one degree or another from the 15th - 18th centuries that they were descended from the Sarmatians. This was reflected many ways, in styles of dress, social standards, etc,,,, but also in armor, especially during the 17th century. While built to modern standards, some armors were stylized to incorporate elements of what they believed Sarmatian armor would look like. The same could be true of Hardby's Amazon-descended warriors in the 6th century. While bared breasts are out of the question, breastplates formed to emulate bared breasts might not be. There are plenty of discussions online as to why armor with breasts would be a bad idea but in the realm of more ceremonial armor it's not out of the question. I'm including two images. EDIT: LOOKS LIKE THE IMAGES TAGS AREN'T WORKING OR I'M DOING SOMETHING WRONG. Anyway just follow the links.
    The first is a 17th century breastplate from South India.
    The second is an example of 17th century Polish Sarmatism influenced armors..
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