From LGG :
"Al'Akbar (ahl AHK-bar) first came to prominence in the days following the Invoked Devastation, when he was called by the gods of the Paynims to restore the Baklunish people to the path of righteousness and dignity."
First of all, Paynims means pagans and "paiens" en Français
This means that Al'Akbar regroups, after the Cataclysm, the Bakluni tribes who lost their faith in the old gods of the empire.
Who are these gods ?
Istus of course, known to the Flanaess as the Weaver of Fate.
Al'Akbar whom some oeridians encountered during the exodus.
Xan Yae and Zuoken are outer deities, probably from Shaofeng
Geshtai (outer deity, Zihindia?)
Mouqol
Azor'Alq
Daoud
Several greater gods are mentioned:
Asran the Lion (Pelor)
Zarad the Scholar (Boccob)
Tharoth the Reaper (Nerull)
and I add Sevelkhar the Ravenous (Incabulos)
Some gods are described in Al'Qadim and can complete the pantheon
Greater or Intermediate Gods:
Kor the Venerable = Old Al'Qadim, the patriarch of the pantheon, a senior god , LN Zeif ++
Hajama the Courageous
Hakiyah of the Sea Breezes
Haku, Master of the Desert Wind
Jauhar the Gemmed
Jisan of the Floods
Najm the Adventurous
Selan the Beautiful Moon
Zann the Learned = Zarad
Many Local Gods (lesser gods): two or three per city
Many Savage Gods (lesser gods): Lords of Plants, Lords of animals, the Faceless God, the Stallion who straddles the World
Dorgha Torgu greater god (Inner planes, PMP, elemental)
The Archomentals, the Elemental Lords
The evil archomentals are collectively known as the Princes of Elemental Evil. The five most famous include:
Cryonax: Prince of Evil Cold Creatures
Imix: Prince of Evil Fire Creatures
Ogremoch: Prince of Evil Earth Creatures
Olhydra: Princess of Evil Water Creatures
Yan-C-Bin: Prince of Evil Air Creatures
The good archomentals are collectively known as the Elemental Princes of Good. The four most famous include:
Ben-Hadar: Prince of Good Water Creatures
Chan: Princess of Good Air Creatures
Sunnis: Princess of Good Earth Creatures
Zaaman Rul: Prince of Good Fire Creatures
The Genies :
Husam al-Balil ben Nafhat al-Yugayyil, Grand Caliph of the Djinns
Kabril Ali al-Sara al-Zalazil, Great Khan of the Daos
Kalbari al-Durrat al-Amwaj ibn Jari, Great Padishah of the Marids
Marrake al-Sidan al-Hariq ben Lazan, Grand Sultan of the Efreet
Eventually, all these gods are venerated, either individually or in a pantheon.
The truth about the cataclysms will be revealed soon.
From LGG :
"Al'Akbar (ahl AHK-bar) first came to prominence in the days following the Invoked Devastation, when he was called by the gods of the Paynims to restore the Baklunish people to the path of righteousness and dignity."
First of all, Paynims means pagans and "paiens" en Français
This means that Al'Akbar regroups, after the Cataclysm, the Bakluni tribes who lost their faith in the old gods of the empire.
Who are these gods ?
Istus of course, known to the Flanaess as the Weaver of Fate.
Al'Akbar whom some oeridians encountered during the exodus.
Xan Yae and Zuoken are outer deities, probably from Shaofeng
Geshtai (outer deity, Zihindia?)
Mouqol
Azor'Alq
Daoud
Several greater gods are mentioned:
Asran the Lion (Pelor)
Zarad the Scholar (Boccob)
Tharoth the Reaper (Nerull)
and I add Sevelkhar the Ravenous (Incabulos)
Some gods are described in Al'Qadim and can complete the pantheon
Greater or Intermediate Gods:
Kor the Venerable = Old Al'Qadim, the patriarch of the pantheon, a senior god , LN Zeif ++
Hajama the Courageous
Hakiyah of the Sea Breezes
Haku, Master of the Desert Wind
Jauhar the Gemmed
Jisan of the Floods
Najm the Adventurous
Selan the Beautiful Moon
Zann the Learned = Zarad
Many Local Gods (lesser gods): two or three per city
Many Savage Gods (lesser gods): Lords of Plants, Lords of animals, the Faceless God, the Stallion who straddles the World
Dorgha Torgu greater god (Inner planes, PMP, elemental)
The Archomentals, the Elemental Lords
The evil archomentals are collectively known as the Princes of Elemental Evil. The five most famous include:
Cryonax: Prince of Evil Cold Creatures
Imix: Prince of Evil Fire Creatures
Ogremoch: Prince of Evil Earth Creatures
Olhydra: Princess of Evil Water Creatures
Yan-C-Bin: Prince of Evil Air Creatures
The good archomentals are collectively known as the Elemental Princes of Good. The four most famous include:
Ben-Hadar: Prince of Good Water Creatures
Chan: Princess of Good Air Creatures
Sunnis: Princess of Good Earth Creatures
Zaaman Rul: Prince of Good Fire Creatures
The Genies :
Husam al-Balil ben Nafhat al-Yugayyil, Grand Caliph of the Djinns
Kabril Ali al-Sara al-Zalazil, Great Khan of the Daos
Kalbari al-Durrat al-Amwaj ibn Jari, Great Padishah of the Marids
Marrake al-Sidan al-Hariq ben Lazan, Grand Sultan of the Efreet
Eventually, all these gods are venerated, either individually or in a pantheon.
The truth about the cataclysms will be revealed soon.
Your opinion ?
Jacques
I like the idea of the Payni as a surviving remnant of the old pantheistic way of life, and the use of al-Qadim to fill in some spaces.
What confuses me is the role of the greater genie-kind and how they relate to the Princes of Evil (and Good, for that matter). For instance, do they compete, or are the various genies subordinate to the Princes?
I like the idea of the Payni as a surviving remnant of the old pantheistic way of life, and the use of al-Qadim to fill in some spaces.
What confuses me is the role of the greater genie-kind and how they relate to the Princes of Evil (and Good, for that matter). For instance, do they compete, or are the various genies subordinate to the Princes?
Good morning TregMallin
The genies are peoples living in the elementary worlds, probably at the borders of these worlds, who have close relationships with humans. They have their nobility and their territories.
The elementals and their lords are the purest and most brutal form of the element, at the heart of the elemental world, responsible for ensuring the coherence of these worlds and the PMPs.
I think genies fear the destructive force of elementals but I don't see any hierarchical relationship between them.
Jacques
I like the idea of the Payni as a surviving remnant of the old pantheistic way of life, and the use of al-Qadim to fill in some spaces.
What confuses me is the role of the greater genie-kind and how they relate to the Princes of Evil (and Good, for that matter). For instance, do they compete, or are the various genies subordinate to the Princes?
Good morning TregMallin
The genies are peoples living in the elementary worlds, probably at the borders of these worlds, who have close relationships with humans. They have their nobility and their territories.
The elementals and their lords are the purest and most brutal form of the element, at the heart of the elemental world, responsible for ensuring the coherence of these worlds and the PMPs.
I think genies fear the destructive force of elementals but I don't see any hierarchical relationship between them.
Jacques
That's been my problem, I think: I was trying to make a hierarchy fit where one may never have been intended anyway.
Both Greyhawk Grognard (on his blog) and the Greyhawk Reborn guy (on his Patreon) have completed and filled out the Baklunish pantheon, each in his own way. I prefer the version of Joe Bloch/Greyhawk Grognard, but the Greyhawk Reborn stuff has some very interesting suggestions for developing the faith of Istus in particular.
I would use either of these versions of the Baklunish pantheon for the Paynims before I'd import the Realmish deities from Al Qadim.
Both Greyhawk Grognard (on his blog) and the Greyhawk Reborn guy (on his Patreon) have completed and filled out the Baklunish pantheon, each in his own way. I prefer the version of Joe Bloch/Greyhawk Grognard, but the Greyhawk Reborn stuff has some very interesting suggestions for developing the faith of Istus in particular.
I would use either of these versions of the Baklunish pantheon for the Paynims before I'd import the Realmish deities from Al Qadim.
Good morning and thank you for your answers.
Delleb is a very good idea.
My idea was to identify a pantheon corresponding to the empire then forgotten by the Paynims.
Two solutions at the moment:
- the pantheon is venerated today in Western Flaness
- or the phrase "to restore the Baklunish people to the path of righteousness and dignity" can be interpreted as a moral to follow that was taught by Al'Akbar: Home, Family, Hospitality, Tolerance and Respect for Authority .
Thus we join the "canon" of Greyhawk: Istus, Mouquol the Merchant, some foreign gods / goddesses and local demi-gods / divine heroes.
On the other hand, further west, the gods are more present because this country was not physically affected by the cataclysm.
I am a fan of the work of Joe Bloch but I regretted the absence of Al'Asran, Al'Zarad and Tsaroth in his mythology.
I'm going to watch Greyhawk Reborn.
What source(s) establish Al'Asran as Pelor and Al'Zarad as Boccob?
After a few online searches, the closest I found was Gary Holian's second "Paladins of Greyhawk" article in LGJ #23 / Dungeon #104 (Nov. 2003), at pgs. 106–07, which I think introduce Al'Asran to Greyhawk. It says, "a being bathed in sunlight, known to the Paynims as Al'Asran, granted the legendary cup and talisman to the prophet Al'Akbar so that he might lead his people from suffering and return them to the ways of the gods." Id. at 106.
Despite the sobriquet, "The Scholar," being shared with Delleb, if Al'Zarad is a greater god, then Boccob is a better fit for him than that Oeridian lesser god.
Regarding elemental gods, beyond the archomentals (mentioned earlier in the thread), there's also a group of "primordial" elemental gods. I can't find a great webpage for them, but this one lists familiar ones (e.g., Akadi, Grumbar, Istishia, and Kossuth), plus various 4e additions. Hopefully Rasgon will read and comment on how the primordials, archomentals, genie gods, etc. interrelate.
What source(s) establish Al'Asran as Pelor and Al'Zarad as Boccob?
The original source was Oerth Journal #3, page 6: "Even the Art of the Sha'ir flourishes within this edifice, much to the chagrin of the priests of Al-Zarad (Boccob), who claim that its practice is not true magic."
Then on page 14, Zuoken enters a shrine with portals to the realms of three Baklunish gods: "In the center, he saw the golden-hued portal that led to the tower of Al-Zarad. There was the largest portal, that of Al-Akbar himself. Directly opposite, the dull black gate to the realm of Tharoth, the Reaper, throbbed its painful ambiance."
These gods aren't explicitly identified in this paragraph, but it's clear that Al-Zarad is Boccob, Al-Akbar is Pelor, and Tharoth is Nerull.
This was based on the 1st edition description of the Cup and Talisman of Al'Akbar, which, according to the DMG: "This pair of holy relics were given by the gods of the Paynims to their most exalted high priest of lawful good alignment in the days following the Invoked Devastation." This source was unclear whether Al'Akbar was the name of the "most exalted high priest of lawful good alignment" or the name of the god who granted the priest the relic, and in Oerth Journal #3, Gary Holian and Erik Mona decided it was the name of the god, and this god was the same as the god known as Pelor to the Flan.
The second edition hardcover Book of Artifacts did suggest the Cup and Talisman were associated with Pelor.
Book of Artifacts, page 30: "The two artifacts are always associated with a powerful god or goddess of healing, although the DM must select exactly which one is most appropriate from those in the campaign. In the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting, Lathander could be used, while in the GREYHAWK setting, Pelor would be appropriate."
As you can see, Book of Artifacts described the artifacts in a setting-neutral way, leaving out the explicit mention of the Paynims and the Invoked Devastation from the 1st edition DMG and only including the Pelor connection as an optional suggestion. But it described the history of the artifacts this way: "No matter what faith, according to the sect's dogma, the Cup and Talisman were given by the deity after a great disaster that brought untold devastation and suffering to the land. The two items appeared before the high preist in a dream. When the clergyman awoke, the Cup and Talisman were there, still sparkling with the radiance of the deity. Blessed with the items and knowledge of their use, the holy man went out and cured the multitude of the sick and injured."
However, the Player's Guide to Greyhawk (1998) listed Al'Akbar as a demigod of "Guardianship, Faithfulness, and Duty," which meant he couldn't be the same as Pelor, but instead was likely the name of the high priest. Accordingly, a new name was needed.
In the Living Greyhawk Journal #23, as you quoted, Gary Holian introduced the name "Al'Asran" as a new Baklunish name for Pelor. He wasn't explicit about this, but you can see how Al'Asran fits into the myth just as Pelor (as an optional suggestion) did in Book of Artifacts. He also confirmed to me personally, in chat, that it was his intention that Al'Asran was Pelor.
Finding official sources that identify Al-Zarad as an alias of Boccob is easier. Polyhedron #128 included "The Powers That Be: Boccob, Lord of All Mages" by Eric L. Boyd, and it explicitly included Al-Zarad as his Baklunish alias.
"Core Beliefs: Boccob" by Sean K. Reynolds in Dragon #338 also mentioned this. Page 41: "Other details of Boccob's appearance vary from location to location. For example, the Baklunish people (who know him as Al-Zarad) show him as olive-skinned and with Baklunish facial features, while the Suel depict him as fair-haired and fair-skinned."
Tharoth, I believe, isn't given as an alias of Nerull anywhere but Oerth Journal #3, and even that source wasn't explicit about it. You have to figure it out via context, because he's shown as the antithesis of Pelor and given the epithet the Reaper.
Quote:
Despite the sobriquet, "The Scholar,"
Al-Zarad isn't called "the Scholar" in any source I'm aware of. That's purely Doc Jacques' invention, I believe.
Quote:
Regarding elemental gods, beyond the archomentals (mentioned earlier in the thread), there's also a group of "primordial" elemental gods. I can't find a great webpage for them, but this one lists familiar ones (e.g., Akadi, Grumbar, Istishia, and Kossuth), plus various 4e additions. Hopefully Rasgon will read and comment on how the primordials, archomentals, genie gods, etc. interrelate.
That's a complicated subject.
The genie rulers aren't considered gods in most sources. They're just powerful noble genies. I suppose mortals could worship them if they chose, as much as they could in theory worship anything (but not necessarily gain clerical spells), but they aren't said to in Al-Qadim sources. Al-Qadim's Secret of the Lamp boxed set identifies gods the genies themselves worship, so they don't normally consider their own rulers to be gods. For example, the capital of the dao, the Sevenfold Mazework, includes mosques and shrines to Grumbar, Jauhar the Gemmed, Jisan the Bountiful, Waukeen, Vergadain, Khurgorbaeyag, Abbathor, Leira, and the Forgotten God of the yakmen.
The 1st edition Fiend Folio introduced the Elemental Princes of Evil: Cyronax, Imix, Ogremoch, Olhydra, and Yan-C-Bin. The 1st edition Monster Manual had mentioned the presence of elemental rulers but I believe they weren't named until Deities & Demigods included them via Michael Moorcock's Melnibonean mythos: Grome, Kakatal, Misha, and Straasha. These were incorporated into Ed Greenwood's Forgotten Realms campaign, as described in "Down-to-Earth Divinity" in Dragon #54, and then renamed for the Forgotten Realms boxed set and 1st edition Manual of the Planes to avoid infringing on Moorcock's copyrights (and Chaosium's claim to have a monopoly on their use in roleplaying games—Moorcock himself has expressed displeasure in this, as they never gave him any royalties). Thus we have the standard D&D elemental rulers: Grumbar, Kossuth, Akadi, and Istishia.
So the idea is that each elemental plane has a ruler who is king of all the elementals and also, at least in the Forgotten Realms setting, a greater god worshiped by mortals. It's certainly appropriate for them to be worshiped by the Bakluni, though I don't believe an official source has ever said so explicitly.
The original idea for them originated in Michael Moorcock's Elric stories, in which the elementals formed pacts with the ancestors of the Melniboneans before the rulers of that nation became corrupted by the Lords of Chaos.
The concept of animal rulers also originated in the Elric stories and it would make sense for Paynim tribes to worship them as well, including perhaps those that appeared in 1st edition Deities & Demigods' Melnibonean Mythos. This could be why the Paynim-descended Wolf and Tiger Nomads are animal-themed.
The Elemental Princes of Evil are powerful elementals corrupted by evil. Planescape's Monstrous Compendium Appendix III included them in their "archomentals" entry, along with their counterparts: the Elemental Princes of Good. According to that source, "On the four Elemental Planes (and even one of the Paraelementals) there are those elemental beings that rise above their fellows, subjugating the rest under their own rule. Chant is these leaders—bloods known as archomentals—twist away from the true nature of the Inner Planes that spawned them and take on the outlooks of those beyond. In other words, they adopt the mantle of good and evil. Fact is, some folks refer to the archomentals as the Princes of Elemental Evil (or Good) or similar derivations of that name. But the elemental high-ups resent the idea that they're anything but unique, and rarely refer to themselves as a group at all. Thus, the "correct" term is unknown. The archomentals don't rule their respective planes or all the elementals found there. Instead, they control realms within their home planes, mastering as many of the less powerful elementals as they can. Like Abyssal lords, they're not true powers, but they are only one step removed. The princes can be slain, and yet they can grant spells to priests who serve and worship them—1st through 3rd-level spells through faith alone, and 4th-level spells if they appear in person."
The Planescape Monstrous Compendium III also said the Princes of Elemental Evil "are said to have a relationship with the mysterious being known only as the Elder Elemental God. Supposedly, some of the princes are that being's offspring, making them queer siblings to say the least."
3rd edition's Monster Manual IV expanded on this: "The Elemental Princes believe that the Elder Elemental Eye is their forebear, a mighty being who can elevate them to godhood and herald their domination of the Material Plane. However, this deity is trapped in a strange void between the planes from which the princes seek to free it. Unknown to them, the Elder Elemental Eye is actually a front for the malevolent god Tharizdun. Long ago, both good and evil deities allied against Tharizdun, who seeks the annihilation of all reality, and sealed the god in a mighty prison. The ever-greedy Princes of Elemental Evil, too young to remember that ancient war, allowed their ambition to blind them to Tharizdun’s deception. Should they succeed in freeing the Elder Elemental Eye, the resulting destruction would spell the end of all existence. The secretive cult of Tharizdun failed in its initial attempt to use the Elemental Princes to restore their dread lord, but the princes’ ambition and avarice remain."
The Primordials are specific to 4th edition's distinctive cosmology, in which there was an ancient war (the Dawn War) between beings associated with the Elemental Chaos and beings associated with the Astral Sea. The rulers of the Elemental Chaos were the Primordials and the rulers of the Astral Sea were the gods. Elemental rulers and archomentals from previous editions were retconned as primordials, and other primordial beings were added as needed.
Besides the elemental rulers and the Princes of Elemental Good and Evil, there are other powerful elemental beings associated with the various paraelemental and quasielemental planes, but I feel like that's beyond the scope of this thread.
Last edited by rasgon on Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:29 am; edited 1 time in total
What source(s) establish Al'Asran as Pelor and Al'Zarad as Boccob?
After a few online searches, the closest I found was Gary Holian's second "Paladins of Greyhawk" article in LGJ #23 / Dungeon #104 (Nov. 2003), at pgs. 106–07, which I think introduce Al'Asran to Greyhawk. It says, "a being bathed in sunlight, known to the Paynims as Al'Asran, granted the legendary cup and talisman to the prophet Al'Akbar so that he might lead his people from suffering and return them to the ways of the gods." Id. at 106.
Despite the sobriquet, "The Scholar," being shared with Delleb, if Al'Zarad is a greater god, then Boccob is a better fit for him than that Oeridian lesser god.
Regarding elemental gods, beyond the archomentals (mentioned earlier in the thread), there's also a group of "primordial" elemental gods. I can't find a great webpage for them, but this one lists familiar ones (e.g., Akadi, Grumbar, Istishia, and Kossuth), plus various 4e additions. Hopefully Rasgon will read and comment on how the primordials, archomentals, genie gods, etc. interrelate.
I don't use the four elemental deities which I find too marked 4E, Dawn War and Primordials. I think Dorgha Torgu was a very powerful god in the Inner Planes (his story is little developed before the cataclysms).
Al'Zarad and Al'Asran are in the Greyhawk Wiki. Tharoth in an Oerth Journal by Eric Mona.
If I keep Istus, the 2 Al, Tharoth and Sevelkhar, Al Qadim (Kor) and Dorgha Torgu, that makes 7 greater gods.
The others from Zakhara will be lesser gods (AD&D 1 or DD 5) or intermediate gods for AD&D2. We must change the names and their stories to better individualize them.
Afterwards, each city or each Paynim tribe can have its lesser gods (like Carthage with Baal, Moloch and Tanit).
We already have a few canon demigods.
Plus druidism and warlocks (Lords of Animals & Lord of Plants) and worshipers of an Arch-Devil or Demon Prince for ULL (Baal, Moloch, Pazuzu, Fraz-Urb-Luu ?).
...
The princes can be slain, and yet they can grant spells to priests who serve and worship them—1st through 3rd-level spells through faith alone, and 4th-level spells if they appear in person."
This may explain the low level of the priests of the Elemental Temples. Each Tempe worships an Archomental, hence much confusion.
& ...
3rd edition's Monster Manual IV expanded on this: "The Elemental Princes believe that the Elder Elemental Eye is their forebear, a mighty being who can elevate them to godhood and herald their domination of the Material Plane. However, this deity is trapped in a strange void between the planes from which the princes seek to free it. Unknown to them, the Elder Elemental Eye is actually a front for the malevolent god Tharizdun. Long ago, both good and evil deities allied against Tharizdun, who seeks the annihilation of all reality, and sealed the god in a mighty prison. The ever-greedy Princes of Elemental Evil, too young to remember that ancient war, allowed their ambition to blind them to Tharizdun’s deception. Should they succeed in freeing the Elder Elemental Eye, the resulting destruction would spell the end of all existence. The secretive cult of Tharizdun failed in its initial attempt to use the Elemental Princes to restore their dread lord, but the princes’ ambition and avarice remain."
...
It is the Eye that is the deception (in GDQ and ToEE) and not the Elder Elemental God.
I don't like the notion of Elder Elemental God. What is Elder preceded the Gods. I prefer to talk about Elemental Evil, which would be a concentration of Evil in the Primordial Chaos during the creation of the PMP.
I don't use the four elemental deities which I find too marked 4E, Dawn War and Primordials. I think Dorgha Torgu was a very powerful god in the Inner Planes (his story is little developed before the cataclysms).
Docjacques, have you read Paul J. Stormberg, Thus Spake Gary Gygax: Ye Secrets of Oerth Revealed," in Oerth Journal #12 (2001–2002), at pgs. 3–11? At pages 6–7, Gygax discusses Dorgha Torgu.
Docjacques wrote:
It is the Eye that is the deception (in GDQ and ToEE) and not the Elder Elemental God.
I don't like the notion of Elder Elemental God. What is Elder preceded the Gods. I prefer to talk about Elemental Evil, which would be a concentration of Evil in the Primordial Chaos during the creation of the PMP.
In case you're interested in Gygax's thoughts as recalled in dialogue with Paul Stormberg, the same article discusses the Elder Elemental God (and Tharizdun) at pages 4–5 and 9–11.
The original source was Oerth Journal #3, page 6: "Even the Art of the Sha'ir flourishes within this edifice, much to the chagrin of the priests of Al-Zarad (Boccob), who claim that its practice is not true magic."
Thanks for that. It's been a long time since I read Gary Holian's "Sorcerous Societies of the Flanaess" and Erik Mona's "Baklunish Delights: The Mistress of Perfection and her Servant."
(As an aside, a few years ago, when researching for my current campaign, I came across Gary's article and was tickled by his entry for Monmurg, "A group calling themselves the "Wizards of the Coast[.]" I went with it but translated and adapted their name into Mágoi tis Aktís, known colloquially as “the Mágoi.”
I'll respond to what you shared about the genie, elemental, and animal rulers in a later post. Very thought provoking.
I read EGG's answers to Paul Stromberg's questions. For EGG, the Elder Elemental God is a different entity from Tharizdun.
But Eric Mona has changed the game in RotToEE.
And the shape in the cyst in WG4 makes me think more of EEG than Tharizdun.
A solution to respect the idea of EGG is to make the Eye the deception of Tharizdun, the priests of the Elemental Temples think they serve the EEG but in fact serve the imprisoned Tharizdun. None of these priests exceed 6th level and their spells could be given to them by the evil Archomentals
For Dorgha Torgu, I have a description after the cataclysm and its portfolio before: Greater god, Materials Dimensions, Elemental Dimensions. Strange, it reminds me of the Ptah from D&D1E.
I read an article by Lord Ceb on the etymology of the name of Tharizdun: Tharizdun will be called Thasmudyan by the baklunis and Thasaidon by the Suelis
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