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    Canonfire :: View topic - The Suel pantheon revisited
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    The Suel pantheon revisited
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue Sep 19, 2023 4:53 am  
    The Suel pantheon revisited

    Good morning

    As for the revisited Bakluni pantheon, I suggest you read a Suel pantheon, inspired by the Babylonian pantheon and responding to the greatness of the Suel Imperium.

    Sorry, translated with Google Translate. Jacques


    THE SUEL PANTHEON part 1

    Len Lakofka is the creator of the Suel pantheon. Sixteen deities are thus described in DRAGON magazine n° 86 to 92 which were included by Gary Gygax in the 1983 box.
    He releases modules L1 “The Secret of Bone Hill”, L2 “The Assassin’s Knot”, L3 “Deep Dwarven Delve” and L4 “Devilspawn” in his Lendore Isle campaign.
    The 1999 source book “The Scarlet Brotherhood” by Sean K. Reynolds details the suel pantheon.
    I propose this original pantheon resulting from the study of the babylonien pantheon which makes it possible to complete the pantheon of Len Lakofka by introducing the three deities of higher rank initially imagined by Gary Gygax. The rise of the Scarlet Brotherhood within the kingdom of Shar "the kingdom of Purity" results in the sidelining of beneficial deities in favor of the evilest deities with the persistence of neutral deities.


    Mythology: (inspired by the Epic of Creation)

    Primordial Chaos: primitive state of the world.
    In this chaos, how did creation manifest itself? It is from the very heart of primitive chaos that it emanates and expresses itself, in the form of a demiurge. Chaos therefore contains within it a potential for creation, and creation is threatened by the possibility of a return to chaos, each of them being indispensable to the other.
    The cosmogony of GREYHAWK'S ARCHIMONDE defines the origins as a primordial Ocean, in which the demiurge is in power, and within which he will awaken. This ocean represents the beginning of the world, but also the end of time.
    Life manifests itself: the demiurge appears, comes into existence by himself; He is alone. He's dreaming.

    LENDOR
    God of Origins and the Multiverse.
    Creator God and demiurge, he is the god of eternal Time, having neither beginning nor end.

    The demiurge will in turn generate other gods, other forms. At the same time, however, the demiurge and the other gods will have to continue to fight chaos, the constant risk of returning to nothingness. The most visible and recurring sign of this constant danger of implosion remains in power within creation, present in the primordial waters just as they contained the demiurge. This danger is expressed in the form of a snake: THARIZDUN. Supreme enemy and cosmic adversary par excellence, he is the symbol of the destructive power of chaos threatening the order of creation, the personification of primordial evil.

    The Origin Gods only occasionally intervene in the affairs of gods, and even more rarely in those of mortals. They seem to evolve on the fringes of history, never being affected by the passage of time. These deities have few worshippers. They maintain links with the young gods who attach themselves to their domains, but these are never very close relationships.

    The Book of Origins: bring the knowledge of the creation of GREYHAWK'S ARCHIMONDE. This knowledge should make it possible to combat Darkness, that is to say, to destroy the evil forces opposing creation.

    At the origins of the World, two entities: SHE WHO WAS and THARIZDUN.
    SHE WHO WAS
    Supreme goddess creates the world, humanity and all that is good in the universe, applies and defends truth and justice, fights evil. She was slain by Tiamat, who took her power to become a full god, and all knowledge of her real name was removed. Probably exists as a Vestige.

    THARIZDUN is the Abyss, arising from primordial Chaos, the realm of eternal Darkness. Creator of the Abyss and Demons, he is the god of Origins who invades creation to disrupt its order. Probably dormant and imprisoned by a coalition of gods led by Lendor.
    THARIZDUN is the Leviathan, a colossal monster, with the body of a serpent and nine dragon heads, eight of which are mortal and the ninth immortal central head, partly made of gold. He is the Beast of the Apocalypse, personifying the primordial struggle between the Creator and the forces personifying Chaos.

    OMOROCA is TIAMAT, the queen of Darkness, the Mother Goddess of evil dragons. TIAMAT is the main antagonist of the great god KORD in the War of the Gods.

    LENDOR (LN) is the god of Time, father, and ancestor of the Suel people. He is the Father of the Gods, the Patriarch. He is the father of Norebo, Phaulkon and Wee-Jas and the grandfather of Kord, being the only one who can calm his grandson's legendary rages.
    According to legends, a blow from his sword, Aurore, would have given birth over time, to the first days of the fifth universe. Since then, Lendor has watched over his creation, only intervening in the event of a major plot aimed at manipulating time in order to pervert the laws of the universe.



    THE SUEL PANTHEON part 2

    The Children of Lendor

    First PHAULKON (C&B) is the Sovereign God of Sky and War, Air, Wind and Storms. The Lord of the Breath, the Lord who holds the Breath of the Word and the Word. The King of the Gods. He was the leader of the pantheon then left it to his son KORD, after his victory over TIAMAT. He is an astral deity associated with the planet Saturn.

    NOREBO (CN), the God of Luck, Gambling and Risk, patron of travellers, merchants and thieves. The Jester of the Gods. The Messenger of the Gods. The son of LENDOR, bound to PHAULKON by a sacred brotherhood.
    Norebo is beautiful and splendid in appearance, very changeable in appearance and behavior. More than other beings, he possesses that wisdom which is called deception, as well as the tricks to accomplish all things. He constantly puts the gods in the greatest difficulty, but he often saves them by means of subterfuge.

    WEE JAS (LN (LM)) is the goddess of Law, Magic, then Death and Vanity after the Cataclysms and the disappearance of NERGAL. She gained the attribution of protection of the dead when the survivors of the Rain of Colorless Fire looked to their goddess of Magic to ensure that the deceased were properly escorted to the Afterlife.


    The following gods/goddesses have almost disappeared from the common history of the Swedish pantheon after the War of the Gods and the oblivion of their people after the Twin Cataclysms. They no longer have clergy and faithful. They are known only to a few initiates and scholars.

    EA (LN) was the god of Waters, Arts, Magic and Wisdom. He was the patron saint of craftsmen, artists, and scholars.

    Before the War of the Gods, LENDOR formed an important triad with PHAULKON and KIA. KIA (N) is the Goddess of Earth, Rivers and Oceans, wife of PHAULKON, mother of KORD, and other gods and goddesses including sisters ISHTAR and ERESHKIGAL.

    ISHTAR (CN) was the Goddess of Beauty, Love and War, an astral divinity associated with the planet Venus. He is a sovereign deity whose support was necessary to reign over a kingdom. During the battle, she drives a flying chariot pulled by seven enchanted lions.

    ERESHKIGAL (NM) was the goddess of the underworld of the Dead, the Queen of the Underworld, sister of Ishtar.
    His Vizier is NAM the god of Disease and Epidemics
    GESH is the Scribe of Hell
    7 Judges of the Underworld

    NERGAL (NM (CM)) is the husband of Ereshkigal. He became the King of the Underworld, god of Destruction, Epidemics and other serious illnesses and all kinds of violent deaths. He is an astral divinity associated with the planet Mars.

    UTU (LB) was the Sun god, guarantor of Justice and Equity. Just as the sun disperses darkness, it brings evil and injustice into full light.

    SÎN (CB) was the Moon goddess, linked to fertility and fecundity.

    GIRRU (LB) is the god of terrestrial Fire, master of the arts of Forging, Metallurgy and Volcanoes, of which he controls underground fire. The Blacksmith of the Gods is a civilizing god, who taught men the arts of fire and metal. He is even capable of giving life to the beings he models.

    NABŰ (N) is the god of Knowledge and Writing. He is responsible for inscribing on his Tablets of Destiny the destiny of each human being. Son of Marduk. Nabű is associated with the planet Mercury.

    ADAR (CG) is the god of war. He is represented as an eagle with outstretched wings and a lion's head. He is the husband of GULA, goddess of healing.
    GULA (LB) is the goddess of Healing.


    THE SUEL PANTHEON part 3

    The third generation of Suel gods

    KORD (CB) is a higher-ranking God. God of Battles, Strength, and War. Son of Phaulkon. The King of the Gods. He killed TIAMAT, the incarnation of the Goddess of Primal Evil, who threatened the Suel pantheon during the War of the Gods. He is an astral divinity associated with the planet Jupiter.

    Most of the Young Gods have been prayed to since the end of the God Wars or more recently, after the Suel crossed the Crystal Mists and settled in their new territories. The Suel have renounced most of their old gods who failed to protect them and pray to the Young Gods according to their environment.

    BELTAR (CM (CN)), the Mother of Darkness is often described as an old hag, but she also takes on the appearance of a beholder, a red dragon or a marilith demoness. She hates almost everything, even other deities.
    Once a goddess of the earth and the bowels of the earth, dispossessed of her domain by Jascar, she is now a goddess of mischief, caves and wells, queen of witches and mother of monsters, revered by primitive humans and evil humanoid slaves since the Twin Cataclysms.

    BRALM (LN) the Hive Goddess is depicted as a middle-aged woman with dark blonde hair, sometimes with insect wings on her back. She also takes the form of an ankheg, a giant wasp or a giant scorpion. Bralm is friendly with the rest of the Suel pantheon, aside from Pyremius and his destructive fire. She supports Wee Jas and the other deities of the Order.
    She is now the goddess of Community, Labor and Industry, associated with Insects, worshiped by miners, builders and farmers. She is a major deity of the kingdom of Shar. The Suel nomads of the Sea of Dust hold her in high esteem.

    FORTUBO (LB) appears as a small, bearded Suel, strangely resembling a dwarf. He wields a great hammer named Golbi, said to have been specially forged for him by Moradin himself.
    The Master Smith is a deity of stone, metals, mountains, and guardians. Originally a patron god of the Suel pantheon, he drifted away from the Suel after discovering that they had caused dwarven slaves to degenerate in order to create the evil derros From now on, he keeps his distance from the other Suel gods, with the exception of his brother Jascar. He has a very good relationship with Moradin and Berronar Puresilver, as well as with Garl Glittergold, the father of the gnome race. He forged strong alliances with Bleredd and Ulaa, two deities with spheres of influence similar to his own. He is the sworn enemy of the derro and their protective deity Diirinka.
    Fortubo is totally opposed to theft, murder, slavery and any form of enslavement of peoples.

    LLERG (CN) is depicted as a powerful, bearded, shaggy-haired man dressed in furs and a battle belt, or as a huge bear, snake, or alligator, three sacred animals to his devotees.
    The Great Bear is the deity of wild beasts and strength. Among the Suel of the savage tribes of Jungle Amedio and Hepmonaland, he is known as Hlerg. Ally of Vatun in the peninsula of Thillonrian, he maintains a friendly rivalry with Kord and he is an enemy of Telchur.

    PHYTON (CB) is most often described as a tall, handsome, slender man of youthful appearance, though he can appear like any forest creature.
    The Shaper of the Woods is a deity of nature, beauty, and agriculture. He now represents man's dominion over nature, which pits him and his devotees against the Druids, other nature deities, and all who protect nature from the depredations of mankind. For this reason, he is an enemy of Obad-Hai. Wee Jas also bears great enmity towards Phyton, for her dominance over beauty. Although he is a human deity, Phyton currently dwells with the Seldarine in Arvandor, though he also has a realm in Ysgard.

    PYREMIUS (NM) is depicted as a hideous human with a demonic face and ears like bat wings (this is the head of a Yagnaloth). He wields a sword "the Red Light of Hades" and a whip called "the Viper of Hades". Pyremius speaks through open flames and sometimes makes them take his face.
    The Burning Slayer is the deity of assassins, murder and poison. Pyremius' closest allies are the goddess Syrul and the Oinoloth Mydianchlarus. He is suspicious of all the other gods, who remember that he is the assassin of Ranet from whom he took the portfolio of Fire in his aspect of force of pure destruction. Pyremius is very popular among the Scarlet Brotherhood.

    RANET (?) is the ancient deity of Fire in its aspect of life-giving force. Ranet was poisoned and weakened by Pyremius at the height of the Suel Imperium. Ranet is not known to have followers these days.

    SYRUL (NM (LM)) is portrayed as a smelly, dirty old witch in tattered clothes. However, this is only an illusion, as its true form is indescribable. She is the Queen of the Fire Serpents, the Serpent Witch. She wields Little Lie (a poisoned dagger made from the horn of an evil unicorn, and Hard Truth (a withering staff made from the crystallized soul of a golden dragon). She is often seen on Flame Demon, his nightmarish serpentine mount.
    The Forked Tongue is the deity of lies, deceit, treachery, and false promises. His only real ally in the pantheon is Pyremius. Syrul's faith is strongest in the Scarlet Brotherhood, although places of worship can also be found in most territories where the Swedes have settled.

    XERBO (CN) is depicted as a tall man with matted hair resembling kelp, wearing armor made from the scales of a dragon-turtle. He wields a trident called "Dark Depths".
    The Sea Dragon is a deity of the Sea, Navigation, Money, and Commerce. Xerbo is married to his daughter, the Sea Goddess Osprem, and is described as a rival of the Oeridian deities Procan and Zilchus. Xerbo is revered by the Suelois across Flanaesse, particularly in the Lordship of the Isles, the Princes of the Sea and Solandia. He is prayed to by the Suel barbarians of the Thillonrian Peninsula, primarily in his role as a sea deity.



    THE SUEL PANTHEON part 4

    The Youngest Gods of the Suel pantheon (4th generation)

    JASCAR (LB) appears as a muscular man with a black beard and a shiny silver breastplate. His face is said to strike fear into the hearts of goblins and orcs. He is sometimes depicted riding a pegasus and fighting Beltar. He wields a great hammer, which is the "Scourge of All the Undead".
    The Lord of the Dales is the deity of the hills and mountains. Jascar is the brother of Fortubo and a close ally of Phaulkon and Kord. He is the sworn enemy of Beltar, from whom he stole part of his domain. Jascar associates little with the other gods, who consider him too passionate and distant. Like his brother, Jascar is honored by many dwarves and gnomes. It is extremely popular in Citadelle, Onouailles and Solandie.

    LYDIA (NB) is depicted as a wise and caring woman with white hair and light blue eyes. She wears a white dress trimmed with silver and gold. Lydia is favored by bards, musicians, sages, scholars, and by women seeking glory.
    The Mother of Truth is the deity of knowledge, daylight, and truth. In the Scarlet Brotherhood, a few followers of Lydia are bards who use stories and songs to promote ideals of racial supremacy and Suel resentment, though most are of good alignment and more closely follow the true ideals of their goddess.

    OSPREM (LN) is often depicted as a beautiful woman in a flowing dress, or as a dolphin, barracuda, or sperm whale. In human form, she wears a ring carved from a whale's tooth, a gift from Xerbo to his occasional companion. Like her father, her domain is in the Elemental Plane of Water, but she would have a kingdom in the Plane of Nirvana.
    The Princess of the Sea is a deity of maritime journeys, ships, and sailors. His cult was unknown until the Suel reached the eastern coast of Flanaesse. She is a popular goddess among the newly arrived Suel in the ports of the Azure Sea, the Lordship of the Isles, the Isle of Lendore, and a few ports of the Barbarians of the Thillonrian Peninsula. Her temples are often shared with those of Xerbo, with whom she is on good terms even though Xerbo feels that Osprem is gradually absorbing his domain and that she is far too tolerant of those invading the ocean.

    AKWAMON (CN (CG)) appears as a tall, handsome Storm Giant wearing a platinum cuirass and armed with Lightning, a huge two-handed sword.
    Akwamon is the deity of sea storms, sea creatures and fishing. He is the son of Xerbo and Osprem with whom he gets along well and is on good terms with Phaulkon and Kord. He dwells in the Elemental Planes of Air and Water, and he travels as a Cloud Chariot on the Material Plane, where he can command Cloud and Storm giants.

    DALT and VATUN appeared recently.

    DALT (CB) is usually depicted either as a white-haired old man with piercing eyes or as a young red-haired thief.
    He is the Suel deity of gates, doors, locks and keys. He could be a son of Wee Jas and a Suel nobleman from the House of the Maure, as he is depicted in two paintings from the Castle of the Maure. The Opener of Ways is the ally of Fharlanghn and Celestian. He is the friend of Mordenkainen to whom he sometimes lends his precious relic "the Silver Key of the Portals". Since the imprisonment of his brother Vatun, he has not been on good terms with Telchur.

    VATUN (CN) appears as an enormous Suel barbarian dressed in a polar bear skin. His beard is made of snow and ice, and his breath is an icy mist. He wields a mighty battle axe called "Winter's Bite," made entirely of ice.
    He is the deity of northern barbarians, cold, winter, and arctic beasts. He could be the son of Kord and a giantess. His only allies are his brother Dalt and the Suel deity Lllerg. He was imprisoned by Telchur. He is worshiped mainly by the Northern Barbarians. The legends evoke a great barbarian empire created by the warriors of Vatun which gave the title of "Fasstal of all Suel" to the king of Cruski. A legend speaks of his release if the legendary Five Blades of Corrusk” are united.


    BAHAMUT (L&B) and TIAMAT (L&M) are prominent members of the Suel pantheon.

    Often, KORD is associated with BAHAMUT, the god of beneficial Dragons.

    TIAMAT appears as the Enemy of the Suel pantheon. Both on a mythological level, when Tiamat is defeated by Kord during the War of the Gods and on a historical level during the War of the Burning Kings. The close relationship between the dragons under the Furnaces of Hell and the Suel is a defining element of their power and regional dominance. The Suel began to possess the Orbs of the Dragons during the war between them and the Fiery Kings, great families of red dragons who led armies of giants, orcs, goblins and hobgoblins.



    THE SUEL PANTHEON part 5

    Tal Meta's "GreyQuest Suel Pantheon for RuneQuest" introduces two interesting new deities, divine heroes who play an important role in the Scarlet Brotherhood.

    AINETET (NM) divinity of Shadows
    The cult of Ainatet has fallen on hard times and has few followers outside of the Scarlet Brotherhood. Ainatet is the Mistress of Shadows, patroness of thieves and all those who flee the bright light. In the past, she was a Black Serpent of Beltar, who took the Path of Shadows as her path to godhood. Although her worship is independent of that of Beltar, the two deities are friendly and sometimes shrines for one will be found in the temples of the other.

    SYRNDRO (LM) divinity of Dreams and Nightmares, Deception and the Spirit
    Syrndro was born to an avatar of Syrul who lived in the city of Sueldrako on the border of the empire. Raised to be a cleric, his guardians were surprised to discover that Syrndro was gifted with mental energy that defied explanation. As he explored his special talents, he not only learned how to control them, but how to pass them on to others. He served his mother and her temple for many decades, before his mother came to him in her dreams and revealed to him the Way of the Dragon that would allow him to become the first divine hero of his people. He was so popular that he eventually became a major power among the Swedes, though he was eventually brought down trying to usurp Wee-Jas' position. Ultimately, Wee-Jas proved that his power, magic, was superior to the mental power wielded by Syrndro and his followers. After this demonstration, worshipers of the Lady in Black ransacked the temples of Syrndro throughout the Imperium. Their power shattered, the clerics of Syrndro sought by divination guidance from their Lord, who told them to seek refuge among the followers of Syrul, whom their Lord favored.
    The cult has survived to this day mainly within the Scarlet Brotherhood. The monks of the Scarlet Brotherhood achieve the perfect balance between physical strength and mental strength. Thanks to the daily practice of their art, they become capable of physical prowess impossible to achieve without rigorous learning.


    It is likely that the demons, Dagon the Lord of the Darkened Depths, Fraz'Urb-luu the Lord of Deceit, and Pazuzu the Prince of the Lower Airrealms, were actively worshiped in the city-states of the Suel Imperium.
    Demogorgon?
    Orcus?
    Graz'zt: a prince of demons. His role in the events of the Imperium is uncertain, but he is the demon lord most involved in the events of humanity.
    Lolth: it is possible that the Suel discovered the temples of these evil deities in the city of Ereihei-Cinlu located in the Vault of the Dark Elves. It is possible that these deities still influence the Brotherhood of the Scarlet Sign.


    The Scarlet Brotherhood
    This new pantheon divides the Scarlet Brotherhood into three zones of influence:
    • Wee Jas is the historical heir to the pantheon. She forms the link with Lendor (LN) and the society of the kingdom of Shar. A Sorority serves her fanatically, unknown to almost everyone.
    • Ereshkigal and Nergal strengthen the Brotherhood pantheon (murder, underworld, death, darkness, assassins, and thieves). The ideological and historical basis of the Brotherhood.
    • Tharizdun and the demon princes represent the chaotic and destructive aspect carried by a sect of fanatics hiding within the Brotherhood.


    MODERN RECEPTIONS
    The 12th planet
    In his book, the 12th Planet, Zecharia Sitchin translated with an original and controversial interpretation an ancient legend, The Epic of Creation, discovered in the ruins of Ashurbanipal's library in Nineveh. Rather than seeing symbolic celestial battles between the deities, he decided to interpret them as real astronomical facts, each deity representing a planet; and he noticed that an unknown planet was mentioned as Tiamat. He deduced that a collision of the hypothetical Tiamat and Nibiru, also called Marduk, created the Earth and the asteroid belt. Tiamat would have been destroyed during the collision.

    Your impressions ? THANKS. Jacques
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    Sat Sep 23, 2023 10:26 am  

    Doc Jacques,

    A truly stupendous effort and impressive in its details. I have personally been rewriting my own version of the ancient history of Eastern Oerik, and have recast the Ancient Suel as a combination of ancient Mesopotamia and Egypt, and the Baklunish as a mix of the Hittites and Assyrians; with both empires being essentially in the Bronze Age at the time of the Twin Cataclysms.

    Perhaps later I'll some details to this later, as well as how I am envisioning the Oeridians and Flan...
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    Wed Sep 27, 2023 7:03 pm  

    I was always hesitant to use the Suel pantheon or any of the deities not described in the ‘83 Guide or Glossography. And aside from Kord (who shouldn’t be a Greater God) I did not like Len’s pantheon published in Dragon magazine.

    It was also difficult to retcon in 2nd and 3rd edition deity material when your 1e campaign had been going on for years.

    I once asked Len why he had so many powerful good deities when the Suel Imperium was so utterly evil. His response “Because Gary okayed it…” :(
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    Sat Dec 23, 2023 4:35 pm  

    Docjacques, I join tarelton in thanking you for sharing this tremendous effort. I've read the whole post once and just reviewed its first part, on which I now comment now. (I plan to comment on other parts over the coming week.)

    First, except for the classic AD&D treatment, and related ones in later editions, I'm unfamiliar with the Babylonian pantheon, so some of my questions might be fairly basic.

    I'll start by saying that I appreciate your origin myth—an oceanic Primordial Chaos giving birth to: +1 a demiurge that awakens into what I'll call "Ur-Lendor" (to distinguish from the father of the Suloise pantheon) and -1 Tharizdun, which you describe as the, "Supreme enemy and cosmic adversary par excellence, he is the symbol of the destructive power of chaos threatening the order of creation, the personification of primordial evil."

    I also like how you contrast these "Origin Gods" with "the young gods who attach themselves to their domains," and sometimes share their name(s). I wonder, however, how or if you connect Beory, Boccob, or any other of the WoG Greater gods to either the Origin Gods or to the "young gods who attach themselves to their domains"?

    In particular, your "Book of Origins" / Archimonde seem like a possible connection to Boccob. And your She Who Was was might be related to Beory and/or Wee Jas. (For that matter, your Book of Origins / Archimonde might have "split" into Boccob and Wee Jas.)

    Regarding your second articulation of Tharizdun—as the Abyss—this seems like the Origin God version of Tharizdun, the one that arose from the primordial, oceanic Chaos. Is that right? If so, color me intrigued by your suggestions that the deific coalition, led by Lendor (i.e., Time) imprisoned Tharizdun by fixing it into / as the Abyss, which constantly threatens to awaken / spill out of its prison as it wildly creates new "levels."

    Regarding "Omoroca," whom you equate with Tiamat, the queen of Darkness, the Mother Goddess of evil dragons[,]" I'm unfamiliar with this name, and Duck Duck Go searches just turn up a Wikipedia entry for "Belus (Babylonian)" and a bunch of Stargate SG-1 references.

    Can you elaborate on this name? Do you mean it simply as a synonym for Tiamat, or are you specifying a kind of "Ur-Tiamat" related to the Origin Gods? Related to the above, you asserted that Tiamat killed She Who Was and stole her power to become a goddess, which indicates that Tiamat (and possibly other dragons) pre-existed, or at least was contemporaneous with, She Who Was. If I'm tracking you, does this mean that Tiamat and other primordial dragons emerged from the oceanic Chaos, and if so, is the Suloise god Kord a son of the primordial / Origin God Lendor as much as the "young" Suloise god Lendor?
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    Sun Dec 24, 2023 7:12 am  

    mtg wrote:
    Docjacques, I join tarelton in thanking you for sharing this tremendous effort. I've read the whole post once and just reviewed its first part, on which I now comment now. (I plan to comment on other parts over the coming week.)

    First, except for the classic AD&D treatment, and related ones in later editions, I'm unfamiliar with the Babylonian pantheon, so some of my questions might be fairly basic.

    I'll start by saying that I appreciate your origin myth—an oceanic Primordial Chaos giving birth to: +1 a demiurge that awakens into what I'll call "Ur-Lendor" (to distinguish from the father of the Suloise pantheon) and -1 Tharizdun, which you describe as the, "Supreme enemy and cosmic adversary par excellence, he is the symbol of the destructive power of chaos threatening the order of creation, the personification of primordial evil."

    I also like how you contrast these "Origin Gods" with "the young gods who attach themselves to their domains," and sometimes share their name(s). I wonder, however, how or if you connect Beory, Boccob, or any other of the WoG Greater gods to either the Origin Gods or to the "young gods who attach themselves to their domains"?

    In particular, your "Book of Origins" / Archimonde seem like a possible connection to Boccob. And your She Who Was was might be related to Beory and/or Wee Jas. (For that matter, your Book of Origins / Archimonde might have "split" into Boccob and Wee Jas.)

    Regarding your second articulation of Tharizdun—as the Abyss—this seems like the Origin God version of Tharizdun, the one that arose from the primordial, oceanic Chaos. Is that right? If so, color me intrigued by your suggestions that the deific coalition, led by Lendor (i.e., Time) imprisoned Tharizdun by fixing it into / as the Abyss, which constantly threatens to awaken / spill out of its prison as it wildly creates new "levels."

    Regarding "Omoroca," whom you equate with Tiamat, the queen of Darkness, the Mother Goddess of evil dragons[,]" I'm unfamiliar with this name, and Duck Duck Go searches just turn up a Wikipedia entry for "Belus (Babylonian)" and a bunch of Stargate SG-1 references.

    Can you elaborate on this name? Do you mean it simply as a synonym for Tiamat, or are you specifying a kind of "Ur-Tiamat" related to the Origin Gods? Related to the above, you asserted that Tiamat killed She Who Was and stole her power to become a goddess, which indicates that Tiamat (and possibly other dragons) pre-existed, or at least was contemporaneous with, She Who Was. If I'm tracking you, does this mean that Tiamat and other primordial dragons emerged from the oceanic Chaos, and if so, is the Suloise god Kord a son of the primordial / Origin God Lendor as much as the "young" Suloise god Lendor?




    Hello and, first of all, thank you for reading.
    My starting point was the existence of 3 higher ranking gods in the 83 box: Lendor, Kord and Wee Jas.
    I modified this article for my French blog by removing the very beginning ANSHAR, KISHAR, APSU and TIAMAT. As well as WHO SHE WAS. In Babylonian mythology, APSU and TIAMAT are the first deities, representing fresh water and salt water. And APSU is called the Abyss. KI means earth, AN means sky. Tiamat is indeed OMOROCA in mythology, not BELUS, to my knowledge.
    The young gods are born and make too much noise for APSU who wants to exterminate them all. APSU is destroyed and TIAMAT, his daughter/wife? leads an army of demons.
    The Babylonian ENLIL (probably ASSUR for the Assyrians) is PHAULKON, the King of the gods, son of LENDOR. Neither Phaulkon nor Lendor can calm Tiamat and Kord is tasked with defending the gods and he kills Tiamat. He succeeds his father Phaulkon.
    For me, Lendor and Tharizdun are gods of Origins. Tharizdun is also a higher-ranking deity in box 83, which subsequently became intermediate-ranking because it was imprisoned.
    Kord is the son of Phaulkon and the grandson of Lendor (Marduk is the son of Enlil and the grandson of Annam).
    Where are Boccob or Beory? probably there but playing a less important role than elsewhere. Boccob is perhaps a mixture of EA and NABŰ, Béory is probably KIA. NERGAL is Nerull, he probably murdered ERESHKIGAL, with the help of his servant NAM, which in exchange becomes Incabulos. Kord is probably BAHAMUT. Is UTU Pelor ?
    Archimonde is not a god, it is the world of Origins. Note that Lendor gives birth to the first days of the fifth universe. Human time? and before, the giants? the Dragons ? sea creatures that have become reptilian (I really like the Nagas from WoW)? the aberrations?
    I hope I answered your questions. I believe that we must also leave some mystery at this time.
    Jacques
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    Wed Dec 27, 2023 1:54 pm  

    Thanks for your responses, Docjacques.

    Your explanations regarding Tiamat made me think of the other deific dragons and Samwise's Visions of Greyhawk article, "Giants of the Flanaess."

    If I understand correctly, your Suel cosmology posits dragons, and possibly giants, as existing before the "fifth universe" of "human time."

    Docjacques wrote:
    Archimonde is not a god, it is the world of Origins. Note that Lendor gives birth to the first days of the fifth universe. Human time? and before, the giants? the Dragons ? sea creatures that have become reptilian (I really like the Nagas from WoW)? the aberrations?

    Thus, the dragons, and possibly the giants (and titans) preceded "the Children of Lendor" and might have been contemporary with Ur-Lendor and Tharizdun in the oceanic Primordial Chaos.

    Docjacques wrote:
    I hope I answered your questions. I believe that we must also leave some mystery at this time.

    I appreciate the need for mystery in campaign (i.e., for the PCs). Here on the forums, I assume we are free to illuminate the mysteries.

    Docjacques wrote:
    THE SUEL PANTHEON part 2

    The Children of Lendor

    I've never thought to amalgamate the Suloise pantheon with another pantheon (e.g., the Bablyonian gods), so I don't have a lot to say about your inclusion of them as forgotten Children of Lendor.

    I'll just mention that Nergal has aspects like those of Nerull and Incabulous; Nam seems like Incabulous; Utu like Pelor; and Girru like Fortubo.

    Finally, I think your "promotion" of Norebo into being a Child of Lendor (and sibling to Phaulkon and Wee Jas) is interesting, particularly your elaboration of him as a trickster god.
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    Joined: Apr 30, 2022
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    Fri Dec 29, 2023 11:13 am  

    Your explanations regarding Tiamat made me think of the other deific dragons and Samwise's Visions of Greyhawk article, "Giants of the Flanaess."

    If I understand correctly, your Suel cosmology posits dragons, and possibly giants, as existing before the "fifth universe" of "human time."

    Docjacques wrote:
    Archimonde is not a god, it is the world of Origins. Note that Lendor gives birth to the first days of the fifth universe. Human time? and before, the giants? the Dragons ? sea creatures that have become reptilian (I really like the Nagas from WoW)? the aberrations?

    Thus, the dragons, and possibly the giants (and titans) preceded "the Children of Lendor" and might have been contemporary with Ur-Lendor and Tharizdun in the oceanic Primordial Chaos.

    Docjacques wrote:
    I hope I answered your questions. I believe that we must also leave some mystery at this time.

    I appreciate the need for mystery in campaign (i.e., for the PCs). Here on the forums, I assume we are free to illuminate the mysteries.

    Docjacques wrote:
    THE SUEL PANTHEON part 2

    The Children of Lendor

    I've never thought to amalgamate the Suloise pantheon with another pantheon (e.g., the Bablyonian gods), so I don't have a lot to say about your inclusion of them as forgotten Children of Lendor.

    I'll just mention that Nergal has aspects like those of Nerull and Incabulous; Nam seems like Incabulous; Utu like Pelor; and Girru like Fortubo.

    Finally, I think your "promotion" of Norebo into being a Child of Lendor (and sibling to Phaulkon and Wee Jas) is interesting, particularly your elaboration of him as a trickster god.[/quote]


    A mythology shared by all human peoples is a big job. I like to think of Lendor as Akatosh, the dragon god of time from the Elders Scrolls.
    Dragons were here before humans, before giants. The gods ? perhaps a people like the Asgard who discovered the secret of Ascension. Initially gods + giants + elves + dwarves fight dragons and dragonbloods. Then a war between the giants and the gods who are victorious. The giants are rejected at the borders of the world. Then war between the gods. And the arrival of humans who have the gift of choosing between good and evil, order or chaos. The others will faint.
    I see Norebo as a Loki but CN, and loyal to Phaulkon.
    Thank's
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