Is there any information on what kind of strongholds/settlements Ur-Flan build?
Did they had temples, sacrifical areas, etc. Did they favor a walled area with several small buildings or one big complex? Did they build underground and so on.
Well in ItU the ur-flan are mentioned twice: once during the hunger legend as part of the nomadic flan and a mention of ur-flan manor houses on the Isle of lost souls,
But for a more detailed look at the Ur-Flan, sacred sites and a truly compelling use for them within any game, I strongly suggest you read GVD's excellent two part article "The Return of the Ur-Flan" found right here on Canonfire.
On a related question, wasnt there supposedly a Flan City built in the lortmils, Haddarach or some such?
One source answers yes to your question, Anced_Math. Steve Wilson's History of Oerth (Oerik) from Oerth Journal 1 suggests the first Flan city, Haradaragh, was founded in the Lortmil Mountains about -2150 CY. The founding of Haradaragh initiated the Flan Talley of Years, marking that event as year one in the Flan calendar.
Living Greyhawk has a pretty cool Core story arc called Windows to the Serpent's Soul, which explores some Ur-Flan crypts in various parts of the Flanaess. There are of course, strong Vecna tie-ins, but they are good adventures with interesting Ur-Flan history. Two of the three adventures are available.
COR4-02 Shedding Scales
A knightly order dedicated to stopping a nameless evil; a mysterious sect of an ancient Suel goddess; and a diviner charged with undoing a diabolical ritual. These diverse forces struggle to end a threat in the cradle of the former Occluded Empire of the Whispered One. Is the danger confined to a backwater barony on the edge of the Rushmoors, or is something more at stake?
COR5-07 Clipping Wings
Many secrets lie hidden in the obsidian darkness of Land of Black Ice. The fate of the afflicted children of a Keoish barony may rest in the hands of a few adventurers willing to brave the unknown. But are forces in the North hiding a bigger threat?
If you don't participate in the LG campaign you can't get ahold of them legally. Like all LG modules, they are only available for use in the LG campaigns. At best, you could try showing up at Neutral Ground (cince you are in NYC) some night when the modules are run, and seeing if the DM and players don't mind you hanging about, watching the game.
Or you could play. Sign up for an event, and see if you can get together a table to play Shedding Scales before it retires, or try and run it.
I take it you mean for the plot elements in the module, not a canon basis for not emailing LG modules.
And yes, there is. It is somewhat obscure, and I was rather surprised the author remembered it. Of course since I picked him for module editor of the Keoland Triad and turned over complete control for such to him, I shouldn't have been so surprised, but there you go. He is also the person who created Shelswake for LG Keoland.
Vecna and the Serpent are mentioned in Die Vecna, Die!
The Serpent also appeared in A Guide to Hell.
I am not aware of either being repudiated as GH relevant, although both products were more PS than GH. (However neither was released as a PS product, so they are technically just "core", although the term wasn't used back then.)
Of course whether that is what is really going on is something I can't say. You'll just have to play the modules and find out.
Sorry I was not clear Sam. I dont have access to the LG modules. I am actually interested to know if there is any Canon basis for Haradaragh, or anything in Canon that directly contradicts it.
And yes, there is. It is somewhat obscure, and I was rather surprised the author remembered it. Of course since I picked him for module editor of the Keoland Triad and turned over complete control for such to him, I shouldn't have been so surprised, but there you go. He is also the person who created Shelswake for LG Keoland.
I'm looking forward to see if my theory that the underground chamber in It Never Rains in Nyrond and the ruins in Shedding Scales are similiar constructs, is correct. There are some hints about it but of course who knows what obscure tricks Vecna is spinning
I don't play V3.5, and it looks like to be a 'sanctioned gamemaster' I need to pass a quiz that draws from the V3.5 core rulebooks. What a scam! Then again, if I get free adventures to run once I pass the test, I guess that's a fair tradeoff (although I still have to do the conversion, grumble grumble). I'll start perusing ebay for some discounted hardcovers, and in the meantime will go explore Neutral Ground. Thanks Sam, and thanks to Greyson as well for the info you messaged me.
Is there any information on what kind of strongholds/settlements Ur-Flan build?
Did they had temples, sacrifical areas, etc. Did they favor a walled area with several small buildings or one big complex? Did they build underground and so on.
Any help is appreciated.
Simpi
For a brief canon treatment, see "Skrellinghald" in Greyhawk Adventures hardcover pp. 92, 93
The Flan name for this site was Tostenhca, and the description somewhat reminds me of Machu-Pichu. _________________ My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
On a related question, wasnt there supposedly a Flan City built in the lortmils, Haddarach or some such?
One source answers yes to your question, Anced_Math. Steve Wilson's History of Oerth (Oerik) from Oerth Journal 1 suggests the first Flan city, Haradaragh, was founded in the Lortmil Mountains about -2150 CY. The founding of Haradaragh initiated the Flan Talley of Years, marking that event as year one in the Flan calendar.
Living Greyhawk has a pretty cool Core story arc called Windows to the Serpent's Soul, which explores some Ur-Flan crypts in various parts of the Flanaess. There are of course, strong Vecna tie-ins, but they are good adventures with interesting Ur-Flan history. Two of the three adventures are available.
COR4-02 Shedding Scales
A knightly order dedicated to stopping a nameless evil; a mysterious sect of an ancient Suel goddess; and a diviner charged with undoing a diabolical ritual. These diverse forces struggle to end a threat in the cradle of the former Occluded Empire of the Whispered One. Is the danger confined to a backwater barony on the edge of the Rushmoors, or is something more at stake?
COR5-07 Clipping Wings
Many secrets lie hidden in the obsidian darkness of Land of Black Ice. The fate of the afflicted children of a Keoish barony may rest in the hands of a few adventurers willing to brave the unknown. But are forces in the North hiding a bigger threat?
Happy gaming.
Now, this sounds pretty interesting... Is the third adventure already published or is it not yet out?
Is the third adventure already published or is it not yet out?
The third part of the story arc is not out, yet. Part II, Clipping Wings, just barely became available for Gamedays. There was almost a year and a half between Part I and Part II. So, expect Part III to come out as a late Year Six Core adventure.
The adventures are pretty good. I think the delay between them is time worth waiting. Shawn Merwin, the author, can take his time. _________________ Don (Greyson)
Is the third adventure already published or is it not yet out?
The third part of the story arc is not out, yet. Part II, Clipping Wings, just barely became available for Gamedays. There was almost a year and a half between Part I and Part II. So, expect Part III to come out as a late Year Six Core adventure.
The adventures are pretty good. I think the delay between them is time worth waiting. Shawn Merwin, the author, can take his time.
I'll look to download them, then... :Insert dramatic msuic: Never downloaded a RPGA adventure before... Hope it works well for me...
While we're on the subject of (shamelessly) plugging LG Core mods with Ur Flan stuff in, COR4-15 War of the Dust has a sketch map of Tostenca (which I did base on a plan map of Machu Pichu), along with some flavour text and other descriptions of the city.
Also - Gary Holien (of this parish) did a piece on an Ur Flan stronghold/city near the Rift Canyon (the name of which eludes my bleary brain this morning) in a Living Greyhawk journal article.
I thought that map in War of the Dust looked familiar.
I disagree about the human sacrifice part. Still, I am familiar enough with the mythic concepts you used, so the whole plot was "obvious" to me, but I enjoyed running it, and thought you handled them quite well within the LG format. (Time limits and length of story arc and all that.) Why not do an extended version for Canonfire?
Is there any information on what kind of strongholds/settlements Ur-Flan build?
Did they had temples, sacrifical areas, etc. Did they favor a walled area with several small buildings or one big complex? Did they build underground and so on.
Any help is appreciated.
Simpi
There is a two part article, The Return of the Ur-Flan, in the "adventures" section of the topical submissions. It offers both an adventure, in Part I, and source material in Part II. Its is lengthy. The author just goes on, and on and on . . . _________________ GVD
The Flan have always been assumed, by some, to be culatural analogs of native americans - with the rovers of the barrens being plains indians. In my OJ article I assume the best analog for the native flan of the southern sheldomar to be the indians of the southeast US, such as the Cherokee.
(notwithstanding that the flan of Geoff are taken to be celtic and those of Tenh to be hebrew).
This being the case, the Ur-Flan, as elder and more powerful ancestors of the Flan, had been assumed by many to be cultural analogs of the most "civilized" native americans (and I mean civilized here in its literal sense - that is, the ones that built the most cities) . Thus, the Ur-Flan city is called Tostenhca (which sounds Meso-American to me, and alludes to the Maya and Aztec) but it looks like Machu Pichu (Inca). I imagine the Ur-Flan cties of the northern sheldomar dominated by Vecna to be like the Missisipian mound culture.
However, the publication of the Scarlett Brotherhood raised the Olman peoples to central stage in the Flanaess. You may disagree with the treatment (and many do), but it is clear that the Olmen recieved ten times the detail they had previously, which heretofor had consisted of a few lines in one old module. Thus, after SB, it seems more fitting to place the Meso-American/Inca analog on the Olman.
Where does that leave the Ur-Flan?
If we now imagine the Olman like the Maya-Aztec-Inca, what should we imagine the Ur-Flan like?
I would suggest we look to their name itself and proceed from there. "Ur-Flan" can mean "first Flan", for Ur- as an adjective signifies first or ancient. But Ur comes from the city of Ur, which was one of the most important cities in the Sumerian culture, in many ways the first human civilization on Earth. Thus, I suggest that the Ur-Flan be modeled after the Sumerians. There are a number of immeadiate correspondancies - a bronze age culture dominated by priests, politically divided into city-states which alternately allied and warred and constructed monumental ziggurats. Not bad for starters.
Sumer was a river-valley cvilization that developed great irrigation techniques and walled cities. They were surrounded by more barbaric and warlike peoples who continually attacked them. That speaks to me of the relationship between the Ur-Flan and the Flan.
It is also fitting that we pay tribute to the Sumerians in our game, for they may have invented the boardgame. The oldest surving boardgame was found in the ruins of Ur.
One of the Sumerian dieties was Tiamat, the Dragon Goddess. She may have been a benign earth mother until the Babylonians with their sky god conquered them and cast her in the role of devil. Thus a DM can make the Ur-Flan devil worshippers and uniformly evil, or place them more naturally aligned with Beory, the victims of Oerid propaganda. Certainly the ones dominated by Vecna were corrupt and evil, though.
I like the idea of each Ur-Flan city-state being dominated by an adult dragon, worsipped as a living god and avatar of Tiamat. Those cities controlled by good dragons would, over time, become good, while those dominated by evil dragons would become evil. _________________ My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
I like the idea of each Ur-Flan city-state being dominated by an adult dragon, worsipped as a living god and avatar of Tiamat. Those cities controlled by good dragons would, over time, become good, while those dominated by evil dragons would become evil.
There's long been suggestions in fan material (and IIRC a few hints in canon - ItU and the LGG) that the Ur Flan necromancer Tyrants of the Trask might have worshipped wyrms. In LG, both the Adri and Onnwal regions have hinted at ancient Flan cultures in those areas that worshipped or at least propriated dragons.
As to the cultural identity of the Flan - given they were spread over a huge subcontinent, it's easy to rationalise enough diversity of culture between the different groups to account for the various RW cultural baggage that's been associated with them (witness the differences between say, Sulm, Tostenca, the Arapahi and the Gyri of Geoff).
Obviously though, these Flan groups must share a common ancestor culture - and that to my mind has to be the Ur Flan. Now, the term has also been used for evil Flan necromancers such as the Tyrants of the Trask or even Vecna. My thought on that is that in the same way that in Star Wars Sith means both the original Sith race and humans that followed the teachings of the Sith, in GH, Ur Flan applies to both the original common ancestor stock of the Flannae peoples and their ancestors who in later times turned to the use of evil magics.
I like the idea of each Ur-Flan city-state being dominated by an adult dragon, worsipped as a living god and avatar of Tiamat. Those cities controlled by good dragons would, over time, become good, while those dominated by evil dragons would become evil.
There's long been suggestions in fan material (and IIRC a few hints in canon - ItU and the LGG) that the Ur Flan necromancer Tyrants of the Trask might have worshipped wyrms. In LG, both the Adri and Onnwal regions have hinted at ancient Flan cultures in those areas that worshipped or at least propriated dragons.
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Thank you for the info, BTW!
