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    Canonfire :: View topic - Lum, Tuerny, Leuk-o, Ehlissa
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    Lum, Tuerny, Leuk-o, Ehlissa
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    GreySage

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    Tue Sep 12, 2006 4:41 pm  
    Lum, Tuerny, Leuk-o, Ehlissa

    Am I mistaken, or were all four of these artifact-wielding legends ruling territories in what would become the Great Kingdom at about the same time? Grodog's article in Dragon #294 places Lum at 800 years ago, or about -210 CY (long before he acquired his famous machine). Tuerny seems to have deposed and replaced one of the early Aerdi Grand Princes (which would be after -217 CY), the Flan kingdom of Ehlissa was conquered around -200 CY (-203 CY, according to OJ 17), and of course Leuk-o was originally a follower of Lum's.

    Did I make a mistake anywhere? Did Tuerny's reign predate the Grand Princes, for example? If not, we have a scenario where all four of these characters were wielding artifacts against one another in maybe the last decade of the third century before the Common Year.

    To quote the Book of Artifacts:

    "Meanwhile, news of Tuerny's atrocities reached neighboring kingdoms. They raised great armies to crush Tuerny and his foul minions. These devastating wars lasted years but resolved nothing."

    "Prior to his acquisition of the thing, Lum was a petty warlord whose legacy would certainly have been lost. With the aid of the Machine, however, he wrote himself a bloody chapter of wars and brutality into mankind's history."

    What does everyone else think? Were these the same wars? Were these artifacts principally used against each other?

    We can perhaps guess that Lum used his machine to destroy Ehlissa and the Zelrad Suel, and probably conquered Nehron and maybe part of Urnst as far as the Nyr Dyv. Leuk-o, after he found his Mighty Servant in the Belching Vortex, could have seized control of the western half of Lum's domain, renaming the city now called Leukish in his own honor. So Lum ruled from Zelradton, Leuk-o from Leukish, and Tuerny from Rauxes fighting them both with his demon hordes until, one by one, they all disappeared within a decade. Leuk-o and his Servant were taken away to the Elemental Plane of Earth by the dao Al-Fasrallah, summoned by the Machine of Lum the Mad. Lum vanished into the plane of Limbo due to the magical backlash of his own artifact (though the Machine itself was reclaimed and installed in Rifter), and Tuerny's soul was claimed by Graz'zt.

    Does this sound reasonable? It's not necessarily ideal, but I think it's what canon suggests (and I don't have all the relevant sources, so I'm not completely confident). Anyone have any preferences?
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    Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:24 pm  
    Re: Lum, Tuerny, Leuk-o, Ehlissa

    Hola rasgon---

    rasgon wrote:
    Am I mistaken, or were all four of these artifact-wielding legends ruling territories in what would become the Great Kingdom at about the same time? Grodog's article in Dragon #294 places Lum at 800 years ago, or about -210 CY (long before he acquired his famous machine). Tuerny seems to have deposed and replaced one of the early Aerdi Grand Princes (which would be after -217 CY), the Flan kingdom of Ehlissa was conquered around -200 CY (-203 CY, according to OJ 17), and of course Leuk-o was originally a follower of Lum's.


    Hmmm. I'll have to go back to the published article to see how it compares to my final draft, but in the Druniazth piece, I didn't mention specific dates. Here's what I had written:

    grodog's final draft submitted to Erik Mona wrote:
    The sword first appeared more than eight hundred years ago, in the hands of Baron Lum (this was years before he discovered his Machine). He wielded a blade in combat described in the same manner as Druniazth against Ur-Flan sorcerers near the Bone Wood, but lost it during the fray. He spent his remaining years trying to recover the sword, and the search for it drove him slowly mad.


    FWIW, I didn't intend that to be precise; "more than 800 years ago" could easily be significantly more or somewhat less, depending on the needs of your campaign and the connections that you're building.

    Also, where's it mentioned that Luek-O was Lum's follower?

    rasgon wrote:
    Did I make a mistake anywhere? Did Tuerny's reign predate the Grand Princes, for example? If not, we have a scenario where all four of these characters were wielding artifacts against one another in maybe the last decade of the third century before the Common Year.

    What does everyone else think? Were these the same wars? Were these artifacts principally used against each other?


    That sounds reasonable to me: I like to think that one of the reasons that the Aerdy were so successful was their ability to leverage their artifacts (or those that they discovered/stole/invented/etc.), and such usage would escalate conflicts into multiple-artifact confrontations, at some point.

    rasgon wrote:
    To quote the Book of Artifacts:


    I really need to find a cheap copy of this one day, I guess ;) I presume the grand princes Tuerney overthrew were mentioned in there?

    rasgon wrote:
    We can perhaps guess that Lum used his machine to destroy Ehlissa and the Zelrad Suel, and probably conquered Nehron and maybe part of Urnst as far as the Nyr Dyv. Leuk-o, after he found his Mighty Servant in the Belching Vortex, could have seized control of the western half of Lum's domain, renaming the city now called Leukish in his own honor. So Lum ruled from Zelradton, Leuk-o from Leukish, and Tuerny from Rauxes fighting them both with his demon hordes until, one by one, they all disappeared within a decade. Leuk-o and his Servant were taken away to the Elemental Plane of Earth by the dao Al-Fasrallah, summoned by the Machine of Lum the Mad. Lum vanished into the plane of Limbo due to the magical backlash of his own artifact (though the Machine itself was reclaimed and installed in Rifter), and Tuerny's soul was claimed by Graz'zt.

    Does this sound reasonable? It's not necessarily ideal, but I think it's what canon suggests (and I don't have all the relevant sources, so I'm not completely confident). Anyone have any preferences?


    I don't either, but I like your reasoning. It also might be fun to postulate some causal linking between the falls of these various figures, artifacts, and empires/nations, given that they all disappeared in such proximity: could they have been maniuplated into conflict with one another by another party, or could they have been pushed into conflict and then have been gobbled up by another more aggressive Aerdy house/mage/whatever?
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    GreySage

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    Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:42 pm  
    Re: Lum, Tuerny, Leuk-o, Ehlissa

    grodog wrote:
    FWIW, I didn't intend that to be precise; "more than 800 years ago" could easily be significantly more or somewhat less, depending on the needs of your campaign and the connections that you're building.


    Ah, you're right. The final article said "more than 800 years ago" as well, and I was being overly literal.

    For what it's worth, "See the Pomarj - And Die!" in Dragon #167 puts the Empire of Lum the Mad at "more than 1,000 years ago." I think that's too far back, myself, though I don't necessarily think 800 years is ideal.

    Quote:
    Also, where's it mentioned that Luek-O was Lum's follower?


    That's from the Book of Artifacts. Perhaps that tome shouldn't have the full weight of canon, but this is what it said:

    "All accounts of the Mighty Servant began with its discovery by the infamous General Leuk-o. Leuk-o was a follower of the warlord Lum, but turned against his master when he came into the possession of this instrument of destruction."

    This was also mentioned in Vortex of Madness (a late-2e product by Chris Pramas):

    "As fate would have it, Lum was challenged by one of his own generals. This man, a powerful warrior named Leuk-o, found an artifact of his own, now known as the Mighty Servant of Leuk-o. Some believe that the Mighty Servant and the Machine of Lum the Mad were created by the same mysterious artificer, and that the appearance of the second device was no coincidence."

    Quote:
    I really need to find a cheap copy of this one day, I guess ;) I presume the grand princes Tuerney overthrew were mentioned in there?


    No, that's an assumption on my part. This is what the Book of Artifacts said:

    "Tuerny was a powerful mage who served as counselor to the king of a small country. Feeling that the king was a weak or foolish ruler, Tuerny and his agents murdered the royal family as they slept and he seized the crown for himself."

    The glaring gap in my knowledge is Return of the Eight, which I don't own - I guess that puts him in the Aerdy area, born 900 years ago, but I'm not certain if the kingdom he ruled was Aerdy or an earlier Oeridian kingdom. The online timelines I found indicated the former, but I'm not sure how canonical they were.

    The other gap is the Living Greyhawk Journal article that describes the Belching Vortex. That might have another definite date in it.
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    Wed Sep 13, 2006 2:06 am  
    Re: Lum, Tuerny, Leuk-o, Ehlissa

    rasgon wrote:
    The glaring gap in my knowledge is Return of the Eight, which I don't own - I guess that puts him in the Aerdy area, born 900 years ago, but I'm not certain if the kingdom he ruled was Aerdy or an earlier Oeridian kingdom.


    Here are some relevant quotes from RotE:
    Quote:
    The black iron disk that the simulacrum wore around its neck survives the elemental’s attack, if this occurs. It shows a stylized man holding a long rod above his head with both arms. The man and rod form a rough T shape. The style of the engraving looks ancient, though the disk is obviously new.
    Anyone making a heraldry proficiency check identifies the engraving style as old Oeridian, from the days of the early Kingdom of Aerdy. The specific image shown can be identified on a proficiency check at a penalty of –3 as one once used by Tuerny, an infamous Aerdy wizard-tyrant.
    The unsettling thing about this pendant is that it seems to be brand-new, even though Tuerny was born over nine hundred years ago and the symbol has never been adopted by a subsequent individual or organization. Tuerny had captured a demon in the Iron Flask of Tuerny the Merciless, but during a battle for which he had released the creature, it turned on him, imprisoned him in the Flask and dragged him to the Abyss. Nothing has been heard of Tuerny since — until now.

    Quote:
    Tuerny was once a human wizard, one of the greatest in all history, and a feared personage in the ancient Kingdom of Aerdy. He was born over nine hundred years ago in the region now called Ahlissa. An archmage, fiend-summoner and conqueror, he slew his own king and founded a militant, expansionist tyranny. When he was about fifty, he created the Iron Flask that bears his name, capturing in it the fiend Graz'zt, who was forced to ravage the armies and holdings of Tuerny's enemies. During one battle, Graz'zt turned the tables and captured Tuerny in the Iron Flask. Tuerny was transformed into a minor demon known as a dretch and taken to the Abyss as a slave. In time he gained power by successfully leading the demonic forces in the Blood War, and became a nalfeshnee....

    Sources: D&D® Original Set Supplement III, Eldritch Wizardry, page 45; AD&D 1st Edition DUNGEON MASTER [sic] Guide, page 158; Book of Artifacts page 45; PLANESCAPE MONSTROUS COMPENDIUM appendix, page 107 (“Tanar’ri, True — Nalfeshnee”).
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    Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:35 am  

    Granted, Graz'zt is a fairly cool demonlord. But does he really have time to spend imprisoned by mortals quite so much?
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    Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:39 am  

    Sigh. I really must get my high history of the Aerdi finished.

    I speculated that Ehlissa lived long before the Migrations, freeing her people from the grip of Acererak. Tuerny came along a lot later and had his stronghold near what is now Rel Deven. I've put him as a driving force for the formation of the Kingdom of Aerdy - since the other princes, threatened by Tuerny ganged together to fight him

    I wasn't aware of the BoA reference to him siezing the crown, but I do having him drowning King Mikar and his army in the river that now bears his name. To fit in the BoA reference, its possible he then murdered the king's family (or murdered them first and then taunted Mikar with their heads before he sweeps them away with the floodwaters of the river) and usurped the throne (or at least the nominal power of the grand prince - Tuerny probably didn't give two figs for the title and the realm that the petty princelings of the Aerdi had concocted).

    Then, Turney turned on Ehlissa, who fought back with their Hradikar. Things don't go so good for them, but Tuerny manages to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory by losing control of the Iron Flask and getting trapped. His dominion collapses and the Aerdi princes quickly reassert their power, electing a new grand prince.

    Ehlissa survives, but only just and it gets gobbled piece meal by the Aerdi in subsequent centuries.

    I haven't factored in where Lum and Leuk-o fit into this - but I assumed they came before the Kingdom of Aerdy was formally formed.

    P.
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    Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:55 am  
    Re: Lum, Tuerny, Leuk-o, Ehlissa

    rasgon wrote:
    We can perhaps guess that Lum used his machine to destroy Ehlissa and the Zelrad Suel, and probably conquered Nehron and maybe part of Urnst as far as the Nyr Dyv. Leuk-o, after he found his Mighty Servant in the Belching Vortex, could have seized control of the western half of Lum's domain, renaming the city now called Leukish in his own honor. So Lum ruled from Zelradton, Leuk-o from Leukish, and Tuerny from Rauxes fighting them both with his demon hordes until, one by one, they all disappeared within a decade. Leuk-o and his Servant were taken away to the Elemental Plane of Earth by the dao Al-Fasrallah, summoned by the Machine of Lum the Mad. Lum vanished into the plane of Limbo due to the magical backlash of his own artifact (though the Machine itself was reclaimed and installed in Rifter), and Tuerny's soul was claimed by Graz'zt.

    Does this sound reasonable? It's not necessarily ideal, but I think it's what canon suggests (and I don't have all the relevant sources, so I'm not completely confident). Anyone have any preferences?


    Couple o' points:

    1: The original capital of Aerdy was Rel Astra, not Rauxes. The capital wasn't moved until much closer to 1 CY, after the title of grand prince passed from the Garesteth to the Crandens. Rel Astra was a Garesteth city, so there was no chance that a Cranden was ever going to deign to rule there.

    2: Leukish was built around 200 CY, after the GK annexed the duchy, presumbaly to create a counterweight to the old Maure seat of government at Saltaran, and to give the GK another stronghold on the Nyr Dyv.

    3: The final conquests of Ehlissa and the Zelrad Suel appear to also have happened a lot later - culminating in the burning of Karnosa about -43 CY. I've made Azharadian responsible for these. Eastern Ehlissa (now the South Province) was taken by the resurgant Aerdi soon after they'd recovered from the beating they got from Tuerny. Faced with defeat and the death of her mother on the battlefield, the young queen turned to the leader of the Zelrad Suel to save her nation. The Suel leader duely did so, taking control of the government by marrying the queen and making terms with the Aerdi, ceding them the eastern plains in return for supporting his claim to the remaining Ehlissan territory (Zelradton, Iron Hills, Idee, Karnosa and parts of the Headlands). The rump state didn't enjoy much luck - fragmenting among rival Zelrad siblings and lords, who Azharadian gobbled up piecemeal when Aerdy was next able to concentrate on the south, after the Battle of a Fortnight's Length and the conquest of Nehron.

    4: The geographical distances between the warring factions seem very long. I'd say that any conflict that might have happened beween the three would have happened in the lands of Aerdy, especially given the location of the Belching Vortex in the Hestmarks (where the Mighty Servent and possibly the Machine came from).
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    Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:56 am  
    Re: Lum, Tuerny, Leuk-o, Ehlissa

    Alternatively - given the fact that the small country isn't named - it could be that Tuerny overthrew a local Cranden prince who ruled a protokingdom around Rel Deven.
    GreySage

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    Wed Sep 13, 2006 10:16 am  
    Re: Lum, Tuerny, Leuk-o, Ehlissa

    DMPrata wrote:

    Here are some relevant quotes from RotE:
    Quote:
    The black iron disk that the simulacrum wore around its neck survives the elemental’s attack, if this occurs. It shows a stylized man holding a long rod above his head with both arms. The man and rod form a rough T shape. The style of the engraving looks ancient, though the disk is obviously new.
    Anyone making a heraldry proficiency check identifies the engraving style as old Oeridian, from the days of the early Kingdom of Aerdy. The specific image shown can be identified on a proficiency check at a penalty of –3 as one once used by Tuerny, an infamous Aerdy wizard-tyrant.
    The unsettling thing about this pendant is that it seems to be brand-new, even though Tuerny was born over nine hundred years ago and the symbol has never been adopted by a subsequent individual or organization. Tuerny had captured a demon in the Iron Flask of Tuerny the Merciless, but during a battle for which he had released the creature, it turned on him, imprisoned him in the Flask and dragged him to the Abyss. Nothing has been heard of Tuerny since — until now.

    Quote:
    Tuerny was once a human wizard, one of the greatest in all history, and a feared personage in the ancient Kingdom of Aerdy. He was born over nine hundred years ago in the region now called Ahlissa. An archmage, fiend-summoner and conqueror, he slew his own king and founded a militant, expansionist tyranny. When he was about fifty, he created the Iron Flask that bears his name, capturing in it the fiend Graz'zt, who was forced to ravage the armies and holdings of Tuerny's enemies. During one battle, Graz'zt turned the tables and captured Tuerny in the Iron Flask. Tuerny was transformed into a minor demon known as a dretch and taken to the Abyss as a slave. In time he gained power by successfully leading the demonic forces in the Blood War, and became a nalfeshnee....


    That fits with what I knew. It seems to say that the kingdom Tuerny ruled was Aerdy, and this was thus after the reign of Mikar (making him very old at the time of his conquests).

    Unfortunately, that would mean Taras' timeline would have to be adjusted, with at the very least a gap between the reigns of two Grand Princes.
    GreySage

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    Wed Sep 13, 2006 10:47 am  
    Re: Lum, Tuerny, Leuk-o, Ehlissa

    Woesinger wrote:
    I haven't factored in where Lum and Leuk-o fit into this - but I assumed they came before the Kingdom of Aerdy was formally formed.


    So had I, actually. And it could still be that way, if we interpret Grodog's "more than 800 years" as a lot more than 800 years. Like I said, I was being overly literal earlier.
    Quote:

    1: The original capital of Aerdy was Rel Astra, not Rauxes. The capital wasn't moved until much closer to 1 CY, after the title of grand prince passed from the Garesteth to the Crandens. Rel Astra was a Garesteth city, so there was no chance that a Cranden was ever going to deign to rule there.


    This is why I was hoping you would reply. I see the Rel Astra reference in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer (Ivid the Undying seemed to imply that Rauxes had always been the capital). If Tuerny wouldn't deign rule from Rel Astra, wouldn't he have ruled from Rauxes? That's where Nasran was crowned.

    Quote:
    2: Leukish was built around 200 CY, after the GK annexed the duchy, presumbaly to create a counterweight to the old Maure seat of government at Saltaran, and to give the GK another stronghold on the Nyr Dyv.


    Bugger. Yes, I see that mentioned in the LGG as well. That makes it much more difficult to link the town to Leuk-o, though, unless his name was very revered among the Aerdi. Which I doubt, even if they had subsequently found use for his Mighty Servant. I'll have to drop that connection, I think.

    Quote:

    3: The final conquests of Ehlissa and the Zelrad Suel appear to also have happened a lot later


    What's the source for that, out of curiosity? One timeline I found placed the burning of Karnosa at -107 CY.

    Quote:
    4: The geographical distances between the warring factions seem very long.


    Good point.

    Quote:
    especially given the location of the Belching Vortex in the Hestmarks (where the Mighty Servent and possibly the Machine came from).


    I wouldn't limit it to near there, however. They would have brought the artifacts with them on their conquests, and the implication is that they conquered quite a lot. I placed their capitals far apart to reflect this, but I assume that they would have of course moved their armies in closer proximity to fight.
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    Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:40 pm  

    Vormaerin wrote:
    Granted, Graz'zt is a fairly cool demonlord. But does he really have time to spend imprisoned by mortals quite so much?


    That's the risk Graz'zt takes dealing so much with those pesky mortals Wink

    No doubt there are Demon Princes who use Graz'zt numerous imprisonments as a reason to focus on the domains and not waste their time dealing with lesser beings.
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    Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:39 pm  
    Re: Lum, Tuerny, Leuk-o, Ehlissa

    Quote:
    This is why I was hoping you would reply. I see the Rel Astra reference in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer (Ivid the Undying seemed to imply that Rauxes had always been the capital). If Tuerny wouldn't deign rule from Rel Astra, wouldn't he have ruled from Rauxes? That's where Nasran was crowned.


    Tuerny was a Cranden, but I never saw him ruling long enough to bother with moving the capital. I kind of see it as - he kills Mikar, cows the Aerdi princes into line, then goes after Ehlissa and gets trapped in the Iron Flask - all in a fairly short space of time (as in a few years) - so as not to do serious damage to the fledgling state of Aerdy. I think there's a reference to him having his stronghold near Rel Deven. The Cranden that moved the capital would have been much later, closer to 1 CY - though that's no more than my speculation, of course. Once Tuerny vanished, the Garesteth would have reasserted power and the new grand prince would have taken up his seat in Rel Astra again.

    I'd get out of changing Taras' list by saying that Tuerny scorned the crown of Aerdy once he killed Mikar and didn't bother claiming it, power being the arbiter of authority rather than titles or crowns. The next name on the list might have been a grand prince in exile or in hiding - though there was a de facto interregenum since the grand prince couldn't openly claim the throne or be offically crowned in Rel Astra.

    Quote:
    Quote:

    3: The final conquests of Ehlissa and the Zelrad Suel appear to also have happened a lot later


    What's the source for that, out of curiosity? One timeline I found placed the burning of Karnosa at -107 CY.


    Hmm - it might be, I was working off the top of my head. -46 CY is the conquest of Onnwal, I know. Karnosa might have gone well before that.
    Where did you get the -107 CY from? That's very close to the Battle of a Fortnight's Length, when, presumably, the Aerdi forces were busy subduing Nehron. I can't actually find a hard canon reference to when Karnosa was burned. I assumed it was about the same time that Onnwal was conquered or reasonably shortly before (as in decades at most).

    P.

    [/quote]
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    Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:12 pm  
    Re: Lum, Tuerny, Leuk-o, Ehlissa

    Woesinger wrote:
    Where did you get the -107 CY from?


    I got it from a document called "TheHistoryoftheAeredi.doc" whose provenance I didn't record.

    The mystery document wrote:

    -107 CY: The Order of the Knight Protectors of the Great Kingdom is founded after woodmen and farmers save the King of Aerdy from an attack by Ur-Flan insurgents on the roayl tent.

    After conquest of Ahlissa - Aerdi rulers hear of the riches of the Iron Hills. Forge alliance with the Dwur Kingdom of the Iron Hills. After moving forces to the northern edges of the hills and commencing mining operations there, the remnants of Suel Kingdom of the Zelred (and/or perhaps the outposts of the Suel Onnwi) attack. Long and bloody war before the last Zelred settlement of Karnosa is sacked and burned. The Aerdi establish Zelradton as a military stronghold.

    Rauxes founded by a Cranden Grand Prince as a rival to Rel Astra.
    Sunndi incorporated into the South Province.
    GreySage

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    Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:56 pm  

    I just reread the article on Ahlissa in OJ #16. I have some problems with parts of it (particularly the Rhennee/Attloi part, and the claim that the word "herzog" is Flan), but the history of Queen Ehlissa and Acererak is very good. That was where I got the idea that Queen Ehlissa was very long-lived; I had forgotten that she had been dead for 400 years by the time the Oeridians showed up.
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    Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:56 pm  
    Re: Lum, Tuerny, Leuk-o, Ehlissa

    rasgon wrote:
    grodog wrote:
    FWIW, I didn't intend that to be precise; "more than 800 years ago" could easily be significantly more or somewhat less, depending on the needs of your campaign and the connections that you're building.


    Ah, you're right. The final article said "more than 800 years ago" as well, and I was being overly literal.

    For what it's worth, "See the Pomarj - And Die!" in Dragon #167 puts the Empire of Lum the Mad at "more than 1,000 years ago." I think that's too far back, myself, though I don't necessarily think 800 years is ideal.


    I hadn't consulted the Pomarj article for Lum details when I wrote the LGJ artifact, so feel free to fold/spindle/mutilate to your heart's content :D

    rasgon wrote:
    grodog wrote:
    Also, where's it mentioned that Luek-O was Lum's follower?


    That's from the Book of Artifacts. Perhaps that tome shouldn't have the full weight of canon, but this is what it said:


    Thanks!
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    Fri Sep 15, 2006 2:20 am  
    Re: Lum, Tuerny, Leuk-o, Ehlissa

    rasgon wrote:

    I got it from a document called "TheHistoryoftheAeredi.doc" whose provenance I didn't record.


    Ah - I remember that - it was a very comprehensive fan doc on the old Codex of Greyhawk site. Some of the details were good, others have been contradicted by developments in the LGG and LGJ.
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    Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:55 am  
    Re: Lum, Tuerny, Leuk-o, Ehlissa

    Woesinger wrote:
    Alternatively - given the fact that the small country isn't named - it could be that Tuerny overthrew a local Cranden prince who ruled a protokingdom around Rel Deven.


    Could this kingdom have been Thalland? All that's really canon about this state is that it's the source of the name of the Thelly River (LGG p. 13). The mention of it in Bastion of Faith should be disregarded as that source places it west of the Harp River and dates it to 303 CY. The only useful bit is the naming of the Thallari as an Aerdi sub-tribe.

    That's just a suggestion. the only real point I'd like to make is that Tuerny was born "more than 900 years" which would be before -315 CY. Mikar and the founding of the Aerdy kingdom was in -216. I don't doubt that Tuerny would have probably extended his lifespan but I do doubt that he would have taken almost 100 years (or more) to get up the nerve to overthrow a king he thought was weak and foolish. Also, this may just the way I'm reading it but the bit on p. 9 of RotE seems to me to say that he created the Iron Flask after he overthrew the king since he was using it to fight the armies of his enemies, and he was only fifty when he created it.

    It's more likely to me that the unnamed "small country" was Thalland or even Ahlissa before I'd go with Aerdy.

    Just because it states that he was "a feared personage in the ancient Kingdom of Aerdy" doesn't necessarily mean he lived in Aerdi. Francis Drake was a feared personage in Spain even though he didn't live in Spain. After overthrowing his king Tureny could have easily lived to give the Aerdy kingdom headaches. It's pretty obvious that a militant, expansionist tyranny with Tuerny as leader would have been greatly feared by them.
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    Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:45 am  
    Re: Lum, Tuerny, Leuk-o, Ehlissa

    smillan_31 wrote:
    Could this kingdom have been Thalland? All that's really canon about this state is that it's the source of the name of the Thelly River (LGG p. 13). The mention of it in Bastion of Faith should be disregarded as that source places it west of the Harp River and dates it to 303 CY. The only useful bit is the naming of the Thallari as an Aerdi sub-tribe.


    It seemed to me that a good fix would be to place it in -303 CY. With that little change, most of the Bastion of Faith history could be used (if not for the newer claim that it gave its name to the Thelly River).

    Of course, the Medegian Bladelands are kind of iffy, since Medegia is where the Garasteth kings came from and they seemed to be Pholtus worshippers rather than Hextor worshippers. Unless Rel Astra wasn't part of Medegia at the time.
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    Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:53 am  

    I saw the Flamni lands before the formation of Aerdy as being a loose confederation of tribal territories. Thalland could have been Tuerny's patch, the Medegian Bladelands another. There's nothing to say that the bladelands wasn't the entirity of Medegia - and it might have been ruled by the ancestors of the Naelax who subsequently went north, once the power of the Garesteths spread south from Rel Astra, Ountsy etc. That might also have added some historical payback angle to the Hextorites gaining rule of the See after the Turmoil Between the Crowns.

    Along that line - I saw Aerdy as being a response to Tuerny's growing power. The other princes ganged together under a common leader, forming Aerdy in the process. They tried to bring Tuerny to heel. Tuerny told them where to go and then destroyed the army they mustered to send against him, killing Mikar in the process. If he didn't subsequently get trapped in the Iron Flask going after Ehlissa, it'd have been bad news for Aerdy.

    Need to run the dates by the Greychronodex, but the link is down.

    P.
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    Sat Sep 16, 2006 10:59 am  

    Woesinger wrote:
    Need to run the dates by the Greychronodex, but the link is down.


    Try this one: http://www.canonfire.com/cf/ghchrondex.php
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    Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:23 pm  

    Woesinger wrote:
    Along that line - I saw Aerdy as being a response to Tuerny's growing power. The other princes ganged together under a common leader, forming Aerdy in the process. They tried to bring Tuerny to heel. Tuerny told them where to go and then destroyed the army they mustered to send against him, killing Mikar in the process. If he didn't subsequently get trapped in the Iron Flask going after Ehlissa, it'd have been bad news for Aerdy.


    Right. You can calculate the date of the Flask's creation as -264 at the earliest. It sounds like he imprisoned Graz'zt not to long after he made the flask.
    Basing Tuerny in Thalland and assuming its placement along the upper Thelly (Due to Woesinger placing him around Rel Deven) would give him a good 40 years to absorb the other small states around him, possibly over to the west bank of the Flanmi and maybe even north into what would be Almor. By about c -215 the confederated Aerdi clans along the Solnor have heard of him and decide they need to band together.

    The LGG says that the new kingdom of Aerdi spent the first few decades conquering the neighboring Flan and driving the Suel south. Then they easily expanded into the Flanmi basin due to the "cooperative effort of the various Aerdi tribes" settling into it. Why would these Aerdi tribes be so cooperative? Maybe a demon-binding tyrant to the west named Tuerny?

    I would rule out a big confrontation between Aerdy and Tuerny/Thalland because in the LGG it says of Aerdy that "First they conquered the Flan's crumbling kingdom of Ahlissa in the southwest, then swept north to contend with other Oeridian tribes who had settled the Flanaess behind them." Normally I would be willing to say "nothing says they didn't fight Tuerny" except for the little problem of the word "First." Much as I like the sound of it, Mikar being offed by Tuerny goes against canon IMO. Not that I should ever complain about anybody violating canon. Wink

    Given that we can say that at the same time Aerdy is absorbing Flan tribes, driving Suel south (I'm assuming into Sunndi), and absorbing Aerdi tribes along the Flanmi, let's say in a period from -215 to -180 or so, Tuerny has been keeping busy trying to conquer Ahlissa, which he almost does before Graz'zt turns the tables on him and his little empire falls into chaos.

    This is where Aerdy comes stepping in to pick up the pieces and conquer the conveniently "crumbling" Ahlissa.
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    Mon Sep 18, 2006 1:38 am  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    Basing Tuerny in Thalland and assuming its placement along the upper Thelly (Due to Woesinger placing him around Rel Deven)


    I could be wrong - but I think Return of the Eight places him in that region. Or I might be imagining it. Smile


    smillan_31 wrote:
    The LGG says that the new kingdom of Aerdi spent the first few decades conquering the neighboring Flan and driving the Suel south. Then they easily expanded into the Flanmi basin due to the "cooperative effort of the various Aerdi tribes" settling into it. Why would these Aerdi tribes be so cooperative? Maybe a demon-binding tyrant to the west named Tuerny?


    And the Prophecy of the Hidden Empress, which promised them a holy land in the east (narrowly interpreted as Greater Medegia (which is why it was a holy see in later times); more widely applied to all of old Aerdy). And common tribal ties - they're all Aerdi, after all. And a demon-binding tyrant for a neighbour. Smile

    smillan_31 wrote:
    I would rule out a big confrontation between Aerdy and Tuerny/Thalland because in the LGG it says of Aerdy that "First they conquered the Flan's crumbling kingdom of Ahlissa in the southwest, then swept north to contend with other Oeridian tribes who had settled the Flanaess behind them." Normally I would be willing to say "nothing says they didn't fight Tuerny" except for the little problem of the word "First." Much as I like the sound of it, Mikar being offed by Tuerny goes against canon IMO. Not that I should ever complain about anybody violating canon. Wink


    Well - Aerdy didn't conquer Tuerny (but rather got a solid kick in the voonerables from him). Then when Tuerny fell, those Cranden cousins who hadn't already thrown their lot in with Aerdy were very swift to bend the knee to the Grand Prince, thus avoiding getting stomped on. You can dismiss the objectionable "First" by saying the absorption of Thalland was largely an internal Aerdi matter - that is, the Crandens (or part of them at least) merging with the rest of the princes of the newly minted realm. Ahlissa was the first foreign conquest.
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    Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:25 pm  

    Here's a rough draft of early kingdoms, circa -303 CY. There were apparently a lot of petty Aerdi kingdoms - one for each noble house, except Rax - in the region labeled "Aerdi Principalities" between the southern Flanmi River and the Solnor Coast, ending at the Imeda River to the north, beyond which were Flan lands until the houses of Naelax and Torquann conquered them. I don't think there was a single kingdom of Aerdy until the crowning of Mikar in -217 CY, and at that time Medegia and Thalland would have become part of it.

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    Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:44 pm  

    Woesinger wrote:
    I could be wrong - but I think Return of the Eight places him in that region. Or I might be imagining it. Smile


    Sorry brother but it's your imagination Smile. I ran a couple of searches through my pdf of RotE and no dice on Rel Deven. Ditto with Ivid and the Glossography. Maybe somebody would be kind enough to check the Encyclopedia Greyhawkania Index references to Tuerny listed as being in the Players Guide to Greyhawk p. 18, The Adventure Begins p. 88, Dragons #71 p. 19 and #299 p. 102 to see if there's any more info? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller..?

    That said, Rel Deven is a great guess. Even if the modern city was founded by the Kingdom of Aerdy it was probably at the very least a good defensible position and population center back in the days of Tuerny.

    Quote:
    And the Prophecy of the Hidden Empress, which promised them a holy land in the east (narrowly interpreted as Greater Medegia (which is why it was a holy see in later times); more widely applied to all of old Aerdy). And common tribal ties - they're all Aerdi, after all. And a demon-binding tyrant for a neighbour. Smile


    Is the Encyclopedia Greyhawkania Index accurate in that the only reference to the Hidden Empress and I'm assuming her prophecy, is in Dragon # 302 or do I need to be looking for something else?

    Quote:
    Well - Aerdy didn't conquer Tuerny (but rather got a solid kick in the voonerables from him). Then when Tuerny fell, those Cranden cousins who hadn't already thrown their lot in with Aerdy were very swift to bend the knee to the Grand Prince, thus avoiding getting stomped on. You can dismiss the objectionable "First" by saying the absorption of Thalland was largely an internal Aerdi matter - that is, the Crandens (or part of them at least) merging with the rest of the princes of the newly minted realm. Ahlissa was the first foreign conquest.


    Sounds good to me.
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    Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:55 pm  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    Is the Encyclopedia Greyhawkania Index accurate in that the only reference to the Hidden Empress and I'm assuming her prophecy, is in Dragon # 302 or do I need to be looking for something else?

    The Hidden Empress is Johydee.
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    Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:58 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    Here's a rough draft of early kingdoms, circa -303 CY. There were apparently a lot of petty Aerdi kingdoms - one for each noble house, except Rax - in the region labeled "Aerdi Principalities" between the southern Flanmi River and the Solnor Coast, ending at the Imeda River to the north, beyond which were Flan lands until the houses of Naelax and Torquann conquered them. I don't think there was a single kingdom of Aerdy until the crowning of Mikar in -217 CY, and at that time Medegia and Thalland would have become part of it.


    I knew if we stuck with this long enough Rasgon would give us a map Happy That looks great!

    The only nitpicky change I'd clarify would be that Thalland should straddle the Thelly since it says that Tuerny was born in what was Ahlissa as of 585. That way Tuerny could have been born on the west bank of the Thelly and still have been Aerdi, although I it's possible some Aerdi could have joined ancient Ahlissa. But considering Tuerny was a Cranden and the Crandens earned their lands in the conquest of Ahlissa that's not likely... unless they were traitors... and it blows our whole Thelly theory out of the water so let's not do that.
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    Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:30 am  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    Woesinger wrote:
    I could be wrong - but I think Return of the Eight places him in that region. Or I might be imagining it. Smile


    Sorry brother but it's your imagination Smile. I ran a couple of searches through my pdf of RotE and no dice on Rel Deven. Ditto with Ivid and the Glossography. Maybe somebody would be kind enough to check the Encyclopedia Greyhawkania Index references to Tuerny listed as being in the Players Guide to Greyhawk p. 18, The Adventure Begins p. 88, Dragons #71 p. 19 and #299 p. 102 to see if there's any more info? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller..?


    Return of the Eight simply states that Tuerny was born in Ahlissa (see quote on previous page). As to the other sources, Players Guide and The Adventure Begins are simply name-drops. (TAB also includes a plot hook, but no further background.) Without looking, I believe DRAGON® #71 refers to Gary's write-ups of the quasi-deities Heward, Keoghtom, and Murlynd, wherein Tuerny is listed as another of the quasi-deities. I don't own #299, so I can't help you there.
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    Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:04 am  

    DMPrata wrote:
    I don't own #299, so I can't help you there.


    That's Grodog's annotated listing of artifacts. The Iron Flask is mentioned, but there's no detail on Tuerny.

    Anyway, I agree with Smillan that it's very unlikely that Tuerny could have been involved with the early Kingdom of Aerdy. His reign of terror probably stretched from -266 to -256, or even less. It stretches credulity to imagine he could have kept Graz'zt bound for longer than that.

    I'm not entirely convinced that Roger E. Moore meant the region known in CY 585 as Ahlissa; given he was writing The Adventure Begins at the same time, he might well have meant the United Kingdom of Ahlissa. I'd consider that "soft canon" and not necessarily go for the absolute literal interpretation.

    He might simply have been born in, ruled, and died in the petty kingdom claimed by the House of Cranden, but I think it's unlikely that he wouldn't have significantly expanded whatever kingdom he ruled through conquest. Since the iron flask of Tuerny is supposed to be one of the reasons for early Oeridian success, he should have spent some time fighting the Flan, if no one else. Aerdy's major conquests won't happen for decades, though, so Tuerny doesn't get to do much that's lasting.

    From Ivid the Undying:

    "Restless and driven, great pre-Aerdy commanders of warfare such as Andorann, Leuk-O, with his massive magical juggernaut, and Tuerny the Merciless conquered vast swathes of land because this was what they had to do."

    So okay, definitely pre-Aerdy, long before the early Kingdom of Aerdy existed. But what did he conquer? Who did he fight, apart from other Oeridian nations? Ahlissa was not yet conquered; neither were the Suel nations to the south. The Lathu Flan were already conquered by Nehron decades before.

    I think the best we can do is say that Tuerny spent most of his time conquering other Aerdi principalities, and perhaps Thalland and Medegia. He may well have conquered regions like Ahlissa and the Onnwi Suel, but his lasting contribution wasn't his conquest of them, but rather the fact that he substantially weakened them, shattering their defenses and infrastructure and lessening their confidence so that in another half-century, subsequent Aerdi conquerers could destroy them entirely. A lot of rebuilding can be done in 50 years, but it wasn't enough.
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    Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:05 pm  

    Nice map - though I'd include the Medegian Bladelands as part of the Aerdi principalities. I reckon that's where the Naelex started out before they went north to carve out their own lands.

    I see Medegia as being the heart of the Aerdi lands, since that's where the Prophecy told them to go - to the shores of the sea where the sun is born. That's also where they built their oldest cities - Rel Astra, Mentrey, Ountsy, Pontylver of the Ships.

    Medegia is holy in Aerdi eyes, since it was the heart of their original kingdom promised them by Johydee. That's why it was made a Holy See by Nasran and granted into the stewardship of the Church of Pholtus.

    In fact, I theorise that the mortal remains of the Hidden Empress are interred in a secret temple underneath Mentrey (and jealously guarded by her priesthood).
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    Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:40 pm  

    Woesinger wrote:
    Nice map - though I'd include the Medegian Bladelands as part of the Aerdi principalities.


    It probably should be. The region marked "Aerdi principalities" are simply those principalities where I'm not sure who ruled what - that is, I'm not sure what part the Torquann claimed, what part the Cranden claimed, what part the Darmen claimed, and so on (though it seems clear that the Garasteth lands were centered in Rel Astra - perhaps the Cranden principality was near Rauxes).

    The LGG says that initially the Aerdi tribes were all on the coast of the Solnor. The part I labeled "Aerdi principalities" includes part of that coast, while the Medegian Bladelands are part of the coast to the south of that. Both would be equally sacred, depending on your interpretation, though I like your idea that Medegia is the particularly sacred region in which Johydee (or perhaps a similacrum she made to fake her death) is interred.

    The Medegi were an Aerdi sub-tribe, I think. It seems very possible that House Naelax ruled them. If so, it's very possible that the Thallari were ruled by Cranden or Darmen (or both). It's also possible that, House politics being what they were, that the various houses weren't tied to any particular tribes, gaining leadership over various tribes through intermarriage.
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    Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:10 pm  

    Woesinger wrote:
    In fact, I theorise that the mortal remains of the Hidden Empress are interred in a secret temple underneath Mentrey (and jealously guarded by her priesthood).


    That's very nice. I like this alot.

    Thanks for looking up those refs, DMPrata.

    This is all really good stuff, everybody.
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    Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:11 pm  

    Does anyone have the file TheHistoryoftheAeredi.doc

    my e-mail is qstor_67 at yahoo dot com.

    Thanks!!!!!!!!!

    Mike
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    Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:29 pm  

    Qstor wrote:
    Does anyone have the file TheHistoryoftheAeredi.doc

    my e-mail is qstor_67 at yahoo dot com.

    Thanks!!!!!!!!!

    Mike


    This looks like it - http://www.freeonlineresearchpapers.com/node/156 posted on a free online research paper site! Don't turn that one in to your history teacher Shocked
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    Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:43 pm  
    Re: Lum, Tuerny, Leuk-o, Ehlissa

    rasgon wrote:
    Woesinger wrote:
    2: Leukish was built around 200 CY, after the GK annexed the duchy, presumbaly to create a counterweight to the old Maure seat of government at Saltaran, and to give the GK another stronghold on the Nyr Dyv.


    Bugger. Yes, I see that mentioned in the LGG as well. That makes it much more difficult to link the town to Leuk-o, though, unless his name was very revered among the Aerdi. Which I doubt, even if they had subsequently found use for his Mighty Servant. I'll have to drop that connection, I think.


    I've been thinking about this since I've been obsessed for awhile with making Leuk-o somehow related to Leukish. Considert that even though the GK built Leukish in 200 that doesn't mean it wasn't built on a pre-existing village or small town named Leukish or something similar. The problem then becomes why would someplace predominantly Suel have the same name as an Oeridian general? To answer this I'm putting forward the following crazy possibly heretical theory.

    Leuk-o was born a bastard in Urnst to a noble Suel father and an Oeridian mother and bore the name of his borthplace. So instead of the place being named after him he was named after the place. In the LGG it states that any mixed children born of Urnsti nobles would be killed. In Leuk-o's case his birth was kept a secret and he was passed off as the child of a Suel woman until someone found out his secret and he was forced to flee. He rose to prominence in the service of a number of Oeridian warlords, eventually coming to be identified with his mother's people despite his Suel name. Eventually he found his way into the service of Lum, a Suel warlord in what is now Sunndi.

    So why make Lum a Suel and why place him in Sunndi? As to the first part, nothing that I know of ever explicitly says he was a Oeridian. The closest anything seems to come to doing so is in Ivid where it says

    "Until its rumored destruction by the earth elementals of Al-Fasrallah, the Mighty Servant of Leuk-O—a huge war machine/juggernaut resistant to damage from weapons and magic—and the similar machine of Lum the Mad wreaked havoc on opposing armies."

    Opposing armies obviously means Flan and Suel but only the machine is spoken of, not Lum himself, whereas in a previous section Leuk-o is identified alongside pre-Aerdy commanders such as Andorran and Tuerny. Lum is left out of this list.

    Further reason for Lum being Suloise is my placement of him in Sunndi. I do this mainly because the Belching Vortex is in the Hestmarks and given that a similar origin is at least hinted at for the Machine and the Mighty Servant it makes sense that Lum would have gotten the Machine from the same place. Consider the proximity of the Hestmarks to Sunndi and the fact that the Machine is big honkin' artifact and not easily moved, although if you know how to run the Machine that's most likely not a problem.
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    Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:11 am  

    Don't have the books to hand so I can't quote chapter and verse, but I think it's mentioned somewhere that Lum was Oerid. The Hestmarks are just over the river from Medegia, which would have been part of the original Aerdi settlements. It's not too big a stretch of the imagination that Lum and Leuk-o might have wandered down there and found the Belching Vortex and all its wonderful toys.

    As for Leukish - a simpler explanation is that it may have been named for Leuk-o by the Aerdi when they founded it in 200 CY? The suffix -ish is found in placenames in Aerdy (Barrish is the one that immediately comes to mind), suggesting it might be an Aerdi/Oerid word rather than a Suel one.

    No Suel need apply. Smile

    (And to be honest - I'm kind of sick of those Aryan knock-offs doing EVERYthing in the Flanaess ever.) Laughing
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    Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:20 am  

    Woesinger wrote:
    (And to be honest - I'm kind of sick of those Aryan knock-offs doing EVERYthing in the Flanaess ever.) Laughing


    Keo-envy.
    Tsk, tsk.
    Cool
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    Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:14 am  

    Woesinger wrote:
    As for Leukish - a simpler explanation is that it may have been named for Leuk-o by the Aerdi when they founded it in 200 CY? The suffix -ish is found in placenames in Aerdy (Barrish is the one that immediately comes to mind), suggesting it might be an Aerdi/Oerid word rather than a Suel one.


    Iwish, Nulbish, Devarnish, Barrish, Leukish.

    It's also possible that there was a pre-existant town of Leukish conquered by Leuk-o, which the angry Urnstans abandoned and razed after the general disappeared. Much later, in 200 CY, the Aerdi rebuilt it on that spot, or where they believed it to have been.

    Another possibility, simpler still, is that the Aerdi had control of the Mighty Servant again (or still) in the third century CY, and that the earth elementals of Al-Fasrallah had yet to claim it. They named the town after the artifact's most famous owner, though he had died five centuries before.
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    Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:52 am  

    Woesinger wrote:
    Don't have the books to hand so I can't quote chapter and verse, but I think it's mentioned somewhere that Lum was Oerid. The Hestmarks are just over the river from Medegia, which would have been part of the original Aerdi settlements. It's not too big a stretch of the imagination that Lum and Leuk-o might have wandered down there and found the Belching Vortex and all its wonderful toys.


    So would you make Lum one of the early Aerdi princes? I'm interested in that reference to Lum being Oeridian if you can track it down. That whole Migrations Period seems a little too crowded to me with tyrannical Oeridian rulers possessing artifacts.


    Quote:
    As for Leukish - a simpler explanation is that it may have been named for Leuk-o by the Aerdi when they founded it in 200 CY? The suffix -ish is found in placenames in Aerdy (Barrish is the one that immediately comes to mind), suggesting it might be an Aerdi/Oerid word rather than a Suel one.


    You make a good point with the -ish suffix but I still don't believe a Suel Duke, selected by Suloise nobles in a Suel-dominated state, ruling under a "hands-off" Overking would allow a major port to be named after a purely Oerid hero, even if it was Aerdi money that paid for the construction. More likely to me that "Leuk" is a Suel root word and the Oeridian "-ish" was just added to it in maps and common usage.

    Quote:
    No Suel need apply. Smile

    (And to be honest - I'm kind of sick of those Aryan knock-offs doing EVERYthing in the Flanaess ever.) Laughing


    Hey I only said Half-aryan knock-off. Smile I'm thinking of Leuk-o as something along the lines of a Cambro-Norman, like Strongbow. Many of those Cambro-Norman Fitzes had Welsh... 'scuse me, Cymraeg names but were essentially Norman in culture. Mind, I'm not saying Leuk-o's life is comparable to Strongbow's just that he was of mixed blood or from a hybridized cultural area. More likely than being mixed blood of an Urnsti Suel noble like I posited above he was mixed-blood of an Oeridian noble in the Oeridian (County) part of Urnst. That sounds better to me although if Leuk is just a common Suel word he could just as easily have been of mixed blood from the region bordering Sunndi or Ahlissa or the Suel who the LGG mentions neighboring the Aerdi before they were pushed south in the early days of the K of Aerdy.
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    Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:01 pm  

    An interesting post from Rob Kuntz to a question about Lum on the Dragonsfoot boards.

    "Indeed there was no official "Lum the Mad" in the original campaign. There was "Krazor the Mad," a wizard of note who I created; and in 1983 I did expand on a "King Lum" in a project detailed then but yet in my files. He is known as an ancient king, perhaps self-appointed in title--and has a land named after him, lomg-lost to even the most capable of historians, though it is small by kingdom standards, baronial or less in size, and sequestered near a dense wood where many strange quadrupeds reside and hunt in packs, known as "Jaunts." I recently brought forth the material containing him when searching for auctionable meterials. So yes, Lum has been expanded on a bit, but only a bit. King Lum uses machines to extract valauble minerals from a nearby sea.

    As this reference occurs in a project with a fully detailed 4-part color map I drew then, I will not reveal too much more, but he is being worked on in another form, let it be known.

    RJK"
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    Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:35 pm  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    So would you make Lum one of the early Aerdi princes? I'm interested in that reference to Lum being Oeridian if you can track it down.


    Lum wasn't a prince, only a baron, and Leuk-o was one of the generals who served under him. But Ivid the Undying implies they both were Oeridian.

    Ivid the Undying wrote:
    Finally, the Oeridians created their great empire because their great commanders, mages, and tribal leaders believed that this was their destiny.

    Driven from their homelands by a great cataclysm, they founded the great capital of Rauxes nearly 4,000 miles from their ancient homeland. No other people traveled nearly as far of their own volition (the Suel were forced to
    do so).

    Restless and driven, great pre-Aerdy commanders of warfare such as Andorann, Leuk-O, with his massive magical juggernaut, and Tuerny the Merciless conquered vast swathes of land because this was what they had to do.


    So Leuk-O is Oeridian, anyway. I suppose he could have been half-Suel, but he definitely fought for the Oeridian side.

    The Book of Artifacts wrote:
    The recorded history of the device begins long ago with the infamous tyrant from whom it draws its name, Baron Lum. Lum was a power-hungry general who happened upon the device during one of his conquests. Prior to his acquisition of the thing, Lum was a petty warlord whose legacy would certainly have been lost. With the aid of the Machine, however, he wrote himself a bloody chapter of wars and brutality into mankind's history.


    This identifies Lum as a baron.

    Vortex of Madness wrote:
    Baron Lum lived many ages ago on a Prime world. Most scholars agree it was Greyhawk, though no world is eager to claim such a tyrant as its own. A general of no small ability, he dreamed of unlimited power and led his army on many successful campaigns against his neighbors. In a conquered castle, he found a strange artifact: a large,
    horseshoe-shaped mechanism covered with dials, levers, and knobs. Intrigued, for he had more than a passing interest in mechanical devices, Lum began to study the machine. Through trial and error he learned to manipulate it, and in the process, unleashed some truly terrible things.

    Whether through the artifact's incomprehensible magic, his own lust for power, or a combination of the two, Baron Lum grew even more megalomaniacal.


    More background on Lum.

    Book of Artifacts wrote:
    All accounts of the Mighty Servant begin with its discovery by the infamous General Leuk-o. Leuk-o was a follower of the warlord Lum, but turned against his master when it came into possession of this instrument of destruction.


    Lum's relationship to Leuk-o.

    Ivid the Undying wrote:
    The Oeridians brought a handful of magical artifacts of extraordinary antiquity with them.

    Until its rumored destruction by the earth elementals of Al-Fasrallah, the Mighty Servant of Leuk-O—a huge war machine/juggernaut resistant to damage from weapons and magic—and the similar machine of Lum the Mad wreaked havoc on opposing armies.


    So both the Mighty Servant and the Machine of Lum were brought into the Flanaess by Oeridians. It seems that someone other than Lum originally found the Machine (presumedly in the Belching Vortex of Leuk-o) and Lum took it from him during "one of his conquests," but it seems contrary to the intent of the prose for a Suel or Flan warlord to have control over the device during that period. It's possible that it was originally in the hands of a Suel warlord in Sunndi and Lum sent an invasionary force in there and took it before the other knew what he had. It's also possible that it was originally found by an Oeridian in one of the early principalities of Aerdy, and Lum took it from him. In any case, that's why it isn't the Belching Vortex of Lum - Lum himself probably was never there.

    Quote:
    That whole Migrations Period seems a little too crowded to me with tyrannical Oeridian rulers possessing artifacts.


    That was deliberate; Sargent's intention was that many of the DMG1 artifacts were brought into the Flanaess by the Oeridians, and that this was one of the primary reasons the Oeridians (and particularly the Aerdi) outcompeted the Flan and Suel. The adulation of the Oeridians in Ivid the Undying does seem a bit hyperbolic at times.
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:41 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    The adulation of the Oeridians in Ivid the Undying does seem a bit hyperbolic at times.


    Surely not! Cool
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    Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:35 am  

    Apologies for dredging up a thread that ended 6 years ago ... buuuuut ....

    Was there any conclusion as to the dates Tuerny, Lum and Leuk-o did their thang? The way the thread ended made me feel it hadn't been fully resolved and I didn't get the feel that the mentioned dates were finally agreed upon (as much as anything can be agreed upon at least!)


    Also - is it generally agreed that Ehlissa ruled her kingdom until it's defeat or is it assumed she had already died? I know she ruled for "several centuries" and that her kingdom was already in decline at that point but that might not mean she was still pottering around in her insane dotage when the Aerdy took control.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:27 am  

    It's really hard to say, other than to put it in a time period. They were all Oeridian warlords, operating in the eastern Flanaess. Given that we can bookend them pretty comfortably between a couple of dates. By -365 CY the Aerdi had reached the western shore of the Nyr Dyv, creating something of a panic in the Flan city of Veralos, so we know they hadn't reached the area where they eventually settled down before that date. We also know that in - 217 the Aerdi banded together under Grand Prince, Mikar of the House Garasteth, making Rel Astra their capital. So, the Aerdi left their lands in what is now Ull around - 465 and had reached the Nyr Dyv by -365. Given this, it's tempting to say they reached the area of Rel Astra around -265 or so. Except that would be a little simplistic. Fortunately, we've got Bastion of Faith which, assuming the author of that work meant -303 instead of the 303 that is given, we can roughly date the foundation of the kingdom of Thalland, along the Thelly River and the Medegian Bladelands. So the Aerdi were probably in the area by at least -303. With that we can reasonably narrow the period down to -303 to -217, although it's possible Tuerny was still kicking around at the foundation of the Kingdom of Aerdy, but probably not for much longer.
    I've got more stuff on this, but I've got to get to work so I'll jump back in later.
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    Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:57 am  

    Thanks Smillan that was very helpful!

    On a related but random note, I noticed regarding Leuk-o's name that 'leuk-' is the Proto Indo-European word for light (I think the Greek word is pretty similar too). Leuk-o (in our world) might translate as something like 'I light'. Maybe he was a pyromaniac or a lamp-lighter in his pre-tyrant days Laughing
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    Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:43 pm  



    Last edited by BlueWitch on Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Paladin

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    Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:09 pm  

    Wolfling wrote:
    Apologies for dredging up a thread that ended 6 years ago ... buuuuut ....

    For sake of the Sir X of the world and the great Purple Cloud God you did well to forewarn it was an old thread resurrected (See Argon on how those cudo points are earned / spent) Happy

    For me... no apologies required... a thread that I somehow overlooked and certainly fits with some thought I was contemplating around Lum.... Great Dig young lupine! Anxious to see what emerges from the Elders...
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    Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:51 pm  

    Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
    Wolfling wrote:
    Apologies for dredging up a thread that ended 6 years ago ... buuuuut ....

    For sake of the Sir X of the world and the great Purple Cloud God you did well to forewarn it was an old thread resurrected (See Argon on how those cudo points are earned / spent) Happy


    Haha well I thought it only fair to warn people, especially as this won't be the only time I do this in my quest for GH lore! Laughing
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    Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:35 pm  

    Wolfling wrote:
    On a related but random note, I noticed regarding Leuk-o's name that 'leuk-' is the Proto Indo-European word for light (I think the Greek word is pretty similar too). Leuk-o (in our world) might translate as something like 'I light'. Maybe he was a pyromaniac or a lamp-lighter in his pre-tyrant days Laughing


    That's an interesting guess, but I suspect Leuk-o was simply derived from his son, Luke Gygax's, name as were so many other of the names EGG used in print (e.g. Erelhei-Cinlu = Erik, Luke, Heidi, Cindy, & Lucy).

    SirXaris
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    Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:03 pm  

    SirXaris wrote:
    Wolfling wrote:
    On a related but random note, I noticed regarding Leuk-o's name that 'leuk-' is the Proto Indo-European word for light (I think the Greek word is pretty similar too). Leuk-o (in our world) might translate as something like 'I light'. Maybe he was a pyromaniac or a lamp-lighter in his pre-tyrant days Laughing


    That's an interesting guess, but I suspect Leuk-o was simply derived from his son, Luke Gygax's, name as were so many other of the names EGG used in print (e.g. Erelhei-Cinlu = Erik, Luke, Heidi, Cindy, & Lucy).

    SirXaris


    Not sure if it's confirmed anywhere, but that's the story I heard also. I noted the similarity to Leukish, and made it part of my cockamamie theory that Leuk-O was Suloise or half-Suloise from Urnst. Probably not. He definitely worked for the Oeridian Lum before going solo.

    So, back to the dating. From Return of the Eight we get some good info on Tuerny. He is noted as having been a wizard who was a feared personage in the Kingdom of Aerdy. I forgot that so change may above statement about him "possibly" kicking around at the foundation of the Kingdom of Aerdy to "definitely." He was born more than 900 years ago (before -313) in Ahlissa. From this, earlier in the thread a number of us think this could be referring to Thalland, although it could also be referring to the kingdom of Queen Ehlissa, surviving after her rule. Many think the latter isn't likely because Ahlissa would have probably been a Flan or Suloise kingdom, appearing to have been subjugated by the Zelrad Suel, who came to the area before the Aerdi. At some point Tuerny slays his own king (of Thalland most likely) and becomes the tyrannical ruler of an expansionist military state, and imprisoning Graz'zt in the infamous Iron Flask at around the age of 50 (c. -263). Given that he was the holy terror of the Kingdom of Aerdy he was around at least until the founding of that kingdom in -217. During a battle, presumably when he was trying to use Graz'zt, the demon lord turned the tables on him and imprisoned him in the Iron Flask, transforming him into a dretch demon. Then Aerdy could breathe a bit easier. So that covers Tuerny.
    What about Lum and Leuk-O? This is a bit harder. Geographically it's hard to place Lum although the relation to the Belching Vortex of Luek-O could indicate he and his barony having been in the area of northern Sunndi. But nothing definite. It could just be where Leuk-O picked up the Mighty Servant and it was never an area he or Lum rules. Timewise it's hard to try and date Lum and Leuk-O. They could have been around before, during or after Tuerny.
    GreySage

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    Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:43 pm  

    Oh wow, this thread is so old and embarrassing (for me).

    Though it's interesting that Woesinger centered Tuerny's ancient kingdom in Rel Deven. I'd much more recently decided to place it there without checking this thread, simply because I get the impression from Ivid the Undying that Rel Deven was the historical seat of House Cranden. I like the idea that the kingdom whose royal family he killed was Thalland.

    Sheesh, I didn't remember any of this.

    Anyway, Tuerny was born, at the latest, in -316 CY.

    The -316 CY date comes from Return of the Eight, pages 9 and 56, which says he was born "over nine hundred years ago." That adventure is set in 585 CY, and 585 minus 900 is -315. Only there's no year 0, so that should be -316 CY; but it's just a rough estimate, so whatever. It does say over 900 years ago, so we might push the dates back up a few decades, but we work with what we have.

    Page 56 goes on to say that he created his Flask when he was about 50, so that's -266 CY. And yeah, definitely before Mikar was crowned the first Grand Prince of Aerdy, so this is one of the pre-Aerdy kingdoms. It could well have been Thalland.

    Bastion of Faith said that Thalland was founded by 303 CY, by which it probably meant either -303 CY or -341 CY (303 OR), so (assuming he took over Thalland) Tuerny must have taken it over sometime between then and the founding of the Great Kingdom in -217 CY. The Book of Artifacts suggests that Tuerny didn't create his Flask until after he had murdered the royal family and charmed or enslaved the army, so -266 CY was after that. Probably not much after, though.

    Book of Artifacts says "...news of Tuerny's atrocities reached neighboring kingdoms. They raised great armies to crush Tuerny and his foul minions. These devastating wars lasted years but resolved nothing." Okay, years. Iggwilv lasted a decade before Graz'zt bested her, so let's be generous and give Tuerny the same time. Tuerny couldn't have kept ruling until anywhere near -217, since that era has Ferrante and Kahabros leading Thalland and Medegia.
    The 1st edition Dungeon Master's Guide said that Ehlissa created her Nightingale "some 17 centuries ago" (that's about -1125 CY, counting down from 576 CY) and then reigned for several centuries more. "Several" means over three, but it probably doesn't mean eight, which is how many centuries she'd have to reign to reach the age of Aerdi conquest.

    OJ #16 puts her reign at about 300 years, which sounds fine to me.

    Quote:
    Ca. -800 CY: By the time Ehlissa had reigned for three hundred years, Acererak was more interested in attaining lichdom than expanding his kingdom. Ehlissa was seen by so few of her citizens that most people assumed she had died, and her courtiers were perpetrating some hoax. The power of the courtiers was very real, however, and when one died while traveling on an errand, a whole clan was held responsible. The clan fled northward to the coast of Relmor Bay to escape persecution. They settled there, and built small ports.

    Ehlissa sought out powerful allies to help defend against Acererak, and in this she made her last bad decision. By magical invitation, she brought a knight riding a young red dragon to Ahlissa. They held meetings in private chambers, and while no record was made as to what was discussed between them, what followed afterward was a falling out between them. Somehow, the Queen who had bested Acererak was caught off-guard, and was slain. This contingency made the Nightingale extremely dangerous, and the knight was in turn slain by its released powers. But the Nightingale was still not done. It created a great zone of antipathy around the Queen’s castle, driving out her guards and courtiers until the castle stood empty. Then the artifact hid itself deep under the castle and protected itself with its magics. It has not been found since.


    I think the intention here might have been to use Queen Ehlissa and her castle as the background for an adaptation of B3 Palace of the Silver Princess.

    As for Lum and Leuk-o, 591 CY minus 800 is about -210 CY for Lum's discovery of Druniazth while fighting Ur-Flannae sorcerers in the Thelwood. That would be the early years of the Great Kingdom, which is probably too late; his heyday should be before the Great Kingdom. Grodog said 800 years was vague. Living Greyhawk Journal #1 said that the village near the Belching Vortex of Leuk-O was settled "in the days before the Empire of Aerdy," but I suppose Leuk-O could have shown up later. The village didn't disappear until 600 years ago. Ivid the Undying calls Leuk-O a "pre-Aerdy commander," though, so that should cinch it. Much more than 800 years ago.

    If he lived before the founding of the Great Kingdom, the Thelwood would place Lum in the vicinity of Thalland. Perhaps he was one of its founders (not, I think, its prince, but a general or war-leader under the prince's command, related to the royal house, who was granted a barony by the prince and later thirsted for still more conquests, warring against Ahlissa and Medegia), helping to destroy the Ur-Flan who lived in the region before the Aerdi. It's tempting to place Lum's loss of Druniazth around -341 and have him discover the Machine, uh, years later. -321 CY? Thalland and Medegia put us right near the Hestmark Highlands, too, where Leuk-O found his Mighty Servant, so it's clear that they spent some time in the region. The Machine of Lum must have turned up in the same general area. That makes it so tempting to just say that Lum was an early ruler of Thalland and Leuk-O ruled Medegia (or even the other way around), thereby starting the conflict between those two nations, but that's a bit too tidy and we're overusing those two states, I think. Besides, those two nations had plenty to fight over with the conflict between Ferrante and Kahabros much nearer to -217.

    If we assume that Rifter (where the Machine of Lum is now housed according to Ivid the Undying), one day's ride from Rauxes, is the site of Lum and Leuk-O's final battle (which is supposed to have have opened a rift: [i]Book of Artifacts, page 58: "The Mighty Servant is believed by many to have been destroyed in this final battle, although others believe it plunged through a dimensional rift opened in that great conflict.") then perhaps Lum's empire was based around Rauxes. Ivid the Undying says the rift appears to descend for miles, though it is always smoke-filled and divination will not reveal what lies below.

    This seems likely to me, since otherwise I have no idea what the rift is supposed to be. I mean, it could have been opened by a later use of the Machine, but nah; Lum's uses of it should be the most iconic and cataclysmic, at least until the PCs (or their adversaries) start tampering with it.

    So at some point Lum and Leuk-O moved north from Thalland/Medegia to Rauxes, where they fought their final battle. Rauxes is eventually claimed by House Cranden; it may have largely been in Flan hands at the time Lum and Leuk-O fought over it. It may have technically been part of Lum's empire, but it probably became an independent state after Lum's disappearance.

    So: proposed timeline.

    -1125 CY. The Queen Ehlissa's Nightingale is created.
    -800 CY. Queen Ehlissa dies.
    -341 CY. Thalland founded. Lum loses Druniazth during a battle in the Thelwood.
    -331 CY. Lum discovers his Machine in a conquered castle near the Hestmark Highlands, probably Pontylver or Nulbish. I'm going to say Pontylver, since it's more magical and it was beaten like a red-headed stepchild in the Greyhawk Wars. He adds Pontylver to his territories and heads north.
    -321 CY. Leuk-O discovers his Mighty Servant in the Belching Vortex. He turns against his master, claims half of his lands, and they clash countless times over the next few years.
    -319 CY. The Battle of Rauxes. Lum and Leuk-O disappear.
    -316 CY. Tuerny is born in the borderlands between the kingdoms of Thalland and Ahlissa.
    -251 CY. Tuerny murders the royal family of Thalland as they sleep and charms or enslaves the Thallish army.
    -266 CY. Tuerny completes his Iron Flask artifact.
    -255 CY. Tuerny is pulled into the Abyss by Graz'zt.
    -227 CY. After a ten-month war, Thalland and Medegia (under the leadership of Ferrante and Kahabros, respectively) fight each other to a draw, expending much of their strength.
    -217 CY. Kingdom of Aerdy founded by Mikar Garasteth.
    -200 CY. Aerdy, led by Cranden and Darmen princes, conquers the "crumbling" Flan Kingdom of Ahlissa.
    -159 CY: Almor I of Cranden is crowned Grand Prince upon the death of Nalaster. He's not going to rule from the Garasteth city of Rel Astra, so he moves the capital to Rauxes.

    Ancient Aerdi kingdoms:
    Thalland. Ruled by House Cranden. Its capital was Rel Deven.
    Medegian Bladelands. Ruled by House Naelex (partly conquered by Lum in -331 CY; regains its independence after Lum's disappearance). Its capital may have been Pontylver.
    Rel Astra. Ruled by House Garasteth. Conquers both the Medegian Bladelands up to the Thelly River and then Thalland by -217 CY to form the core of the Kingdom of Aerdy.

    I'm going to assume the Darmen were originally based around Kalstrand and were part of the kingdom of Thalland at one point, maybe independent at times but conquered by both Lum and Tuerny, and still part of the kingdom in the time of Ferrante.

    Torquann's lands were probably based around Mentrey. Though this is the historical capital of the See of Medegia, it was never part of the Bladelands.

    The Rax homelands must have bordered the Kingdom of Nehron, or grown to border that region, since they're mostly the ones who defeated the Nyrondel in the Battle of a Fortnight's Length. That would put them to the north of Thalland, I think. However, Rax sounds kind of like "Rauxes," so maybe the House of Rax ruled Rauxes until the Crandens took it as their new imperial capital, giving them Nyrond in exchange? That doesn't happen until -109 CY, though, so maybe the Crandens ruled from Rel Deven until then.

    I have no idea why control of the nation shifted from the Garasteths to the Crandens, but there doesn't seem to have been a war or coup. Ivid the Undying says this, though:

    Quote:
    However, as Aerdy grew in size, and especially as some houses came to eminence not through landholdings (the traditional indicator of eminence) but through trade or learning and magical skills, very complex negotiations had to be engineered. Sometimes, two houses would agree on a trade-off, whereby two marriages would take place at the same time, with each pair taking the name of the other house to ensure equity.


    So if Prince Almor I (perhaps born into the house of Garasteth as Nalaster's son or nephew) married a powerful sorceress of House Cranden he might have taken her name, while her brother married his sister and became a Garasteth. Or something.

    The transition between Cranden and Rax-Nyrond I know. Prince Manshen was the product of secret incest between Queen Yalranda and her brother, with King Tenmeris never the wiser. Manshen discovered this, or always knew it, and he took the name of his true house when he came of age.

    Aaaaand I'm way off topic.
    GreySage

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    Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:01 pm  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    So, back to the dating. From Return of the Eight we get some good info on Tuerny. He is noted as having been a wizard who was a feared personage in the Kingdom of Aerdy.


    Meh. Just because they feared him doesn't mean he was still around. They might have just treated him as a historical bogeyman they were still afraid might one day come back. They never found his corpse, after all.

    Or else I'd just interpret the phrase "Kingdom of Aerdy" more broadly as "the region that would become the Kingdom of Aerdy," just as I take the reference to his birth in Ahlissa to mean "modern Ahlissa."

    As I said above, I don't think the dating works if he was ruling Thalland until -217, unless you're telling me St. Ferrante (a prophet of Heironeous known for his goodness and purity before his eventual corruption - by Kahabros, not Tuerny) was working for Tuerny all along. No sir, I don't buy it. There needs to be a period before the kingdom's fall in which Thalland is mainly lawful and good, Secret Doctrine or no. I don't think we can push the war between Thalland and the Bladelands before Tuerny's reign, since those wars are supposed to be what weakened both kingdoms enough for Mikar to conquer them.
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    Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:09 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    Oh wow, this thread is so old and embarrassing (for me).


    You're not alone. And I'm still obviously off by 3 years on when Return of the Eight took place.

    rasgon wrote:
    Bastion of Faith said that Thalland was founded by 303 CY, by which it probably meant either -303 CY or -341 CY (303 OR), so (assuming he took over Thalland) Tuerny must have taken it over sometime between then and the founding of the Great Kingdom in -217 CY. The Book of Artifacts suggests that Tuerny didn't create his Flask until after he had murdered the royal family and charmed or enslaved the army, so -266 CY was after that. Probably not much after, though.

    Book of Artifacts says "...news of Tuerny's atrocities reached neighboring kingdoms. They raised great armies to crush Tuerny and his foul minions. These devastating wars lasted years but resolved nothing." Okay, years. Iggwilv lasted a decade before Graz'zt bested her, so let's be generous and give Tuerny the same time. Tuerny couldn't have kept ruling until anywhere near -217, since that era has Ferrante and Kahabros leading Thalland and Medegia.


    I like the 303 OR interpretation of this, but I went back and checked Bastion of Faith and couldn't see where you got -227 for the conflict between Ferrante and Kahabros. All I saw was Thalland was founded in 303 OR or -303 CY and then "In time, among the Thallari there arose a champion named Ferrante." Is there another source? I want to think I heard someone mention Ferrante being sourced somewhere else than Bastion of Faith, although I can't be sure of that. "In time..." definitely means some time passed, but a hundred years seems a little long to me. Thalland was founded on the worship of Heironeous, and Ferrante was the first prophet and saint of that god. Granted, there's probably something that contradicts that statement, but the thing that strikes me is that Thalland was founded on strong Heironean principles, so I'm still seeing the Ferrante vs. Kahabros beef happening before Tuerny's rise, when he was just a child. I think you could do it either way depending on which makes more sense to you.
    GreySage

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    Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:10 am  

    Bastion of Faith says (on page 9) that "the two sides battled each other to a draw, expending a great deal of their strength in the process. Weakened by their endless warfare, the Kingdom of Thalland and the Medegian Bladelands were eventually absorbed into the Kingdom of Aerdy that arose within the lands they had long contested." I have trouble reconciling that with a history of Thalland that recovers from this weakness to conquer a bunch of lands under Lum and/or Tuerny; those gains would erase all the weakness they acquired battling Medegia, and it would be an entirely different sequence of events (Tuerny's downfall, for example) that renders it too weak to fight off Prince Mikar. That's why I think the war between Ferrante and Kahabros has to be the last major conflict the lands face before Aerdy's conquest.

    Bastion of Faith's statement that Ferrante was the "very first servant of Heironeous" is problematic. Arnd of Tdon founded Heironeous's paladins centuries before (Dungeon #104: "Paladins of Heironeous trace their lineage back to the legendary Arnd of Tdon, who established the first paladins of the Invincible One among the Oeridian tribes ages ago, before the Great Migrations." Dragon #354 said Arnd established the first paladins of Heironeous "more than a thousand years ago." The 3e Player's Handbook II had the Heironean Order of the Chalice founded "a millennia [sic] ago" by the paladin Arbinger). Bastion of Faith was going for the idea that Ferrante was so fundamental to Heironeous's faith that learning of his secret downfall would bring all of the god's works into disrepute, but while Dragon #354's "Core Beliefs: Heironeous" referenced the legend of Ferrante and other elements of Bastion of Faith, it dialed them back a bit, saying Ferrante was "not universally held as a saint, but at least one large temple holds him as its patron."

    Incidentally, Kahabros is also mentioned in Reverse Dungeon (page 81), though that source ties him to Dargeshaad from College of Wizardry rather than to Hextor.

    In any case, of course you're right that ultimately you have to decide which makes the most sense to you, since either way there's some contradictions. If you put Ferrante at the beginning of the nation's history and Tuerny at the end, you get Tuerny at least closer to being feared while still a mortal in the Kingdom of Aerdy, but the ultimate downfall of Thalland rests on Tuerny's shoulders rather than on the tragic war between the half-brothers Ferrante and Kahabros (which might have weakened the nation enough for Tuerny to take it over, rather than Mikar). I read it as Ferrante being a great hero in Thalland's twilight years, but not contemporaneous with the nation's founders (more King Arthur than Brutus of Troy). The nation was established by Oeridians who held Heironeous as their favored god, but I think those founders would have looked more to Arnd as their prophet.
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    Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:45 am  

    Smillan & Rasgon thank you for enduring your embarrasment and clarifying those dates for me! Much appreciated.

    Your deductions always show great sensitivity to balance both the source material and a creative factor which is why I value the information in these threads so much!

    As I've been reading more and more material about the Oeridians and Aerdy I'm getting a very Frankish Empire feel with their Germanic tribal origins, the Holy Roman Empire (See of Medegia) forming from East Francia et cetera.

    Getting a grasp on the ancient history of Flanaess really helps me to understand the later developments and also provide my players with a richer fuller world to explore in.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:41 am  

    Thanks! Rasgon always brings more to the table than I do, so I'm pleased to be included in his company. Arnd was who I had in mind as the first paladin of Heironeous, but I didn't have a reference, so I couldn't remember if that was fan-speculation or not. Even though it could go either way, I think Rasgon makes the better argument. It's hard to reconcile my theory with the lines he quoted above from page 9 of Bastion of Faith. I doubt enough time could have passed.
    I think of the Franks when I think of the Aerdi also. Smile
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    Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:12 pm  

    Re: dynastic succession from Garasteth to Cranden.

    Sargent's description of double marriages and house renaming seems overly complicated. In the Aerdy histories and genealogies I created for my campaign (which one day I will get around to submitting as an article) I just used the old standby, succession by marriage, to cover most dynastic changes. Garasteth king leaves only a daughter as heiress, who marries Cranden prince. That's how, for example, Henry, count of Anjou, became Henry II, King of England (more or less). Norman dynasty gives way to Angevins (Plantagenets).

    More on topic, the timing and treatment of Tuerny you guys describe is more or less what I envisioned, except I placed him not in Thalland, but another, smaller, Oeridian kingdom, from which he conquered the whole of the land once known as, and still popularly called, Ahlissa.
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    Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:20 pm  

    And another thing I wonder: How did Graz'zt, a demon lord so powerful he rules three planes, contends with Demogorgon and Orcus for primacy in the Abyss, and is rumored to be the son of various powerful entities, manage to get trapped by a mortal wizard not once, but twice?! I can just imagine the demon lords' break room: "Did you hear some meatsack human captured Grazzy again? What a maroon! Hey, let's go loot his treasury."
    GreySage

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    Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:12 pm  

    Roger E. Moore probably should have given Tuerny a different demon lord to enslave for the sake of variety, though note that the way his Flask works in 3rd edition is that it only imprisons an aspect of a demon lord, not his true self.

    One could argue, though, that increased accessibility to mortal conjurers is the price that Graz'zt pays for being more intimately involved with mortals. I don't just mean physically seducing them; he seems less alien, less concerned with destruction and carnage and more involved with manipulating mortal weaknesses and cravings than many of his fellows. Choosing to be closer to mortals means that he's easier for them to reach.

    That said, Graz'zt's record isn't all that bad. Demogorgon was enslaved by the sahuagin god Sekolah for a while; Orcus was straight-up murdered by the drow goddess Kiaransalee; Baphomet was imprisoned by Orcus; Kostchtchie was humiliated after Graz'zt managed to convince him for years that the ebon-skinned demon lord was Malcanthet and totally hot for the old Russian man-beast; Zuggtmoy spent over a decade stuck beneath the Temple of Elemental Evil; Juiblex has to deal with being a formless blob with no face; Astaroth was killed by Gargauth; Fraz-Urb'luu spent a century as a bas-relief beneath Castle Greyhawk; Obox-Ob lost his throne to Miska the Wolf-Spider; Miska the Wolf-Spider is still imprisoned in Pandemonium after probably 36,000 years.

    Compared to much of that, getting briefly ensnared twice, and coming out more or less unscathed both times with his realm still under his control, doesn't seem so embarrassing.
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    Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:44 pm  

    Re: Ehlissa & Ahlissa, here are a few dates derived from various sources:

    c. -1125 CY
    Xagy and Joramy create Queen Ehlissa’s Marvelous Nightingale.
    (Gygax, Dungeon Masters Guide, 160: “The origin of this artifact is unknown, although the Mage Mordenkainen is reported to have asserted that the Nightingale was made by Xagy and the goddess of volcanic
    activity, Joramy, some 17 centuries ago.” This date was determined by subtracting 1701 years from 576 CY, the campaign date presented in the World of Greyhawk Fantasy Game Setting: A Guide to the World of Greyhawk, p. 9)

    c. -1109 CY
    Ehlissa founds Ahlissa
    (Creighton Broadhurst, et al., The Free State of Onnwal, 111: “[Queen Ehlissa] reputedly lived 17 centuries ago when she ruled a Flannish kingdom in the vicinity of the present-day Kingdom of Ahlissa from which the Oeridian kingdom gets its name.” The date of circa -1109 was determined by subtracting 1701 years from 592 CY, the date of the source)

    c. -1050 to -1034
    In the seventy-sixth year of her reign, Queen Ehlissa invades Acererak’s realm in the Vast Swamp, but no significant gains are made by either side.
    (“Ahlissa: A Greyhawk Gazetteer,”Oerth Journal #16, 18.)

    c. -250 CY
    The fortified settlement of Kalstrand is founded by Kaldared of House Darmen. Kalstand acts as a trading post between the eastern Aerdi clans and the Flan Kingdom of Ahlissa to the west.
    (“Cities of Aerdy: Kalstrand - City of Gold,” Oerth Journal #17, 4.)

    -203 CY
    The Darmen princes of Kalstrand begin their conquest of the Kingdom of Ahlissa.
    (“Cities of Aerdy: Kalstrand - City of Gold,” Oerth Journal #17, 4.)

    -194 CY
    In their conquest of Ahlissa, the Darmen princes of Kalstrand wrest the site of modern-day Zelradton from the Zelrads, a Suel house allied with the Flan kingdom.
    (Creighton Broadhurst, “Zelradton – City of Steel,” Oerth Journal #18 (2006), 3.)

    -145 CY
    Aerdi conquest of Ahlissa complete no later than this year.
    (The Free State of Onnwal, 9: “The Kingdom of Ahlissa . . . was conquered by the Aerdi in the fifth century OR. . . .”)
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    Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:59 am  

    I always imagine that as a demon or devil rises in power in the direction of godhood they need that closer connection with mortals which in the early stages is somewhat perilous for them, one of the reasons that they all aren't trying it perhaps?

    Also - maybe Graz'zt, on one of those occasions, had reason to want to be captured?


    Thanks for those dates Robbastard. That's the first time I've seen the creation of the Nightingale put before the founding of Ahlissa. Is that speculation or is there a source for that sequence of events? It actually makes good sense. I read that she was supposed to be the last of a long line of benign rulers but I think it has been suggested that that line of rulers may not have been from where Ahlissa is. Maybe after gaining the Nightingale she founded her own kingdom somewhere else using her new power to consolidate it.

    A while back I started formulating this vague idea in my mind of a connection between Ehlissa and the City of the Gods. The Nightingale uses clockwork technology, which is also found in the CoG. Joramy was involved and I believe that around Blackmoor there is thermal activity in the form of hot springs (okay not volcanos but I still like the connection). I saw Ehlissa as a sorceress from that place travelling south and subjugating the local tribes with her magics in a kind of benign tyranny. Obviously that's just speculation with not a scrap of evidence to support it!

    Also your date for the conquering of Ahlissa at -145CY is different to Rasgon's date of -200CY - did either of you have a specific reason for the date you picked or are you going by an educated estimate?
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    Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:03 pm  

    Wolfling wrote:
    Thanks for those dates Robbastard. That's the first time I've seen the creation of the Nightingale put before the founding of Ahlissa. Is that speculation or is there a source for that sequence of events?


    Robbastard wrote:
    This date was determined by subtracting 1701 years from 576 CY, the campaign date presented in the World of Greyhawk Fantasy Game Setting: A Guide to the World of Greyhawk, p. 9)


    Robbastard wrote:
    The date of circa -1109 was determined by subtracting 1701 years from 592 CY, the date of the source)


    He just interpreted the "17 centuries ago" line literally for each source.

    Quote:
    Also your date for the conquering of Ahlissa at -145CY is different to Rasgon's date of -200CY - did either of you have a specific reason for the date you picked or are you going by an educated estimate?


    Both of us cited Oerth Journal #17 (I cited it in my first post in this thread). The exact quote is this:

    Oerth Journal wrote:
    -203 CY: A large stone keep is built a short distance north of the main settlement. The Darmen princes launch their conquest of Ehlissa from Kalstrand. The town resists several assaults by the Hradikar, the legendary Flan warriors of Ehlissa.


    I must have been rounding off; I hadn't bothered to look at the original source again when making my previous timeline. That's when the conquest begins, and that's where I got my -200 date.

    Rob got the date of the conquest's completion from the line on page 9 of the Onnwal document (The Free State of Onnwal: the Players Guide for Living Greyhawk UK) that said the Kingdom of Ahlissa was conquered in the fifth century OR. -1 CY is equivalent to 644 OR, so the last year of the fifth century OR (500 OR) would be -145 CY. It could well have been, and most likely was, earlier than that; that's just the last year that could be called "the fifth century OR."

    If you don't think the war was likely to have lasted 58 years, an earlier date is advisable. However, note that Oerth Journal #16 has it lasting two generations (on page 19).
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    Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:43 pm  

    Thanks for clearing that up Rasgon. I'd never really considered the Oerth Journals as canon and so haven't really read any of them but it sounds like they might be worth a read!
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    Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:57 pm  

    They aren't canon, but in cases where we have little or no canon material I think they're worth at least considering. Sometimes there're an awkward fit with things published later, but they're still often interesting or useful.

    Or you could ignore canon entirely. There's always that option.
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    Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:10 pm  

    Yeah, that should read -144 CY--good catch, Rip!

    Edit:

    Okay, I spoke too soon, assuming I made a mistake when I calculated those dates so long ago.

    It turns out -145 CY is correct, due to the lack of a year zero.

    For those who have issues converting reckoning dates, see: http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Common_year#Conversions
    GreySage

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    Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:54 pm  

    I think -145 is right. Subtract 144 from 644 and you get 500. Subtract 144 from -1 and you get -145.

    I edited out the part of my earlier post where I disagreed with you.
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    Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:49 pm  

    rasgon wrote:

    The 1st edition Dungeon Master's Guide said that Ehlissa created her Nightingale "some 17 centuries ago" (that's about -1125 CY, counting down from 576 CY) and then reigned for several centuries more. "Several" means over three, but it probably doesn't mean eight, which is how many centuries she'd have to reign to reach the age of Aerdi conquest.

    OJ #16 puts her reign at about 300 years, which sounds fine to me.

    Quote:
    Ca. -800 CY: By the time Ehlissa had reigned for three hundred years, Acererak was more interested in attaining lichdom than expanding his kingdom. Ehlissa was seen by so few of her citizens that most people assumed she had died, and her courtiers were perpetrating some hoax. The power of the courtiers was very real, however, and when one died while traveling on an errand, a whole clan was held responsible. The clan fled northward to the coast of Relmor Bay to escape persecution. They settled there, and built small ports.

    Ehlissa sought out powerful allies to help defend against Acererak, and in this she made her last bad decision. By magical invitation, she brought a knight riding a young red dragon to Ahlissa. They held meetings in private chambers, and while no record was made as to what was discussed between them, what followed afterward was a falling out between them. Somehow, the Queen who had bested Acererak was caught off-guard, and was slain. This contingency made the Nightingale extremely dangerous, and the knight was in turn slain by its released powers. But the Nightingale was still not done. It created a great zone of antipathy around the Queen’s castle, driving out her guards and courtiers until the castle stood empty. Then the artifact hid itself deep under the castle and protected itself with its magics. It has not been found since.


    I think the intention here might have been to use Queen Ehlissa and her castle as the background for an adaptation of B3 Palace of the Silver Princess.


    OJ #16 says that Ehlissa's reign was for 500 years (p. 18), but also says that her death took place about 300 years into her reign. I personally prefer the 500 year figure, as that's closer to the "several" centuries EGG has her ruling in the 1E DMG & EW. 300 years is more like "a few" than "several."

    Furthermore, 500 years (c. -609 CY by my reckoning) is closer to the time we see Acererack in the Vast Swamp & closer to the likely date for his lichdom, which I've dated to c. -441 CY (mostly via refs in Return to the Tomb of Horrors stating that his last days as a human/ early research as a lich occurred over 1000 years ago.
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    Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:23 pm  
    South Province stuff

    Hi all,

    Rob tracked me down on Facebook and pulled me into this to explain the discrepancy between 300 years and 500 years in my timeline for Queen Ehlissa. This span of time was left in there for more of the back story of B3 Palace of the Silver Princess, as I tied it into South Province history. Though not elaborated on in the article, I believe it went something like this.

    During those last 200 years, Ehlissa's palace was overrun by kobolds, goblins, and orcs, just like in module B3. So the monsters were running the kingdom for those 200 years, claiming to be getting their orders from the sequestered queen. And, actually, they were. Ehlissa's consciousness had been absorbed by the nightingale upon her death (similar to how the princess is imprisoned in a gem in B3) and Queen Ehlissa/the Nightingale was telling the orcs what to do. After 200 years of this, though, the Nightingale went dormant and most of the weaker monsters left or died off.

    Scott "-enkainen" Casper

    Or Ehlissa was magic jarred by a Yak-Man. Your pick...
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    Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:32 pm  

    Thanks, Scott!
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    Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:12 am  

    Thanks for taking the time to clear that up for us Scott ... I really like the Palace of the Silver Princess tie in with Ehlissa ... the Yak-Man magic jar is tempting though I have to admit Wink

    I think I might go with the conquering of Ahlissa being a bit shorter than 58 years, maybe 40 - 50. I suppose it depends on how many years you class a generation. Although slightly arbitrary I think it used to be considered about 20 to 25 years, although in a more Mediaeval / Renaissance type culture it might be even less.
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    Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:56 am  

    I don't want to threadjack, but my group is currently playtesting my 1E conversion of B3, which was heavily inspired by Scott's OJ 16 article. (Scott, I hope I did justice to your concept.) When we're finished the playtest, and I've cleaned it up for publication, I'll be sure to share it with the community. Smile
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